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Time for Nige to go upstairs?


glynriley

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57 minutes ago, Bedred31 said:

This is not a typical season as the fixture list is initially very crowded. We have, I think, 8 league games in August? This will shake out in the next month or so, because the 10 games in threshold will come v quickly. Personally I’m a bit bemused by the Pearson experience. I really like the theory of him as manager - quite different from before, shake up the lazy players stealing a good living, proven track record at this level. But I thought some things were a given- good organisation, strong spine, high work rate, bit of niggle. In other words, more perspiration than inspiration, but with a shout at pulling it off. Yet our defence is the most porous it’s ever been in my 50 years of supporting City. We’re going to have to see this through, I think, as we have no money to spend and frankly Steve L left the building about 18 months ago ( as he’s entitled to and as I would if I was him). 

The fixture list is a very relevant point; without a quick turnaround a lot of the damage could already be done. The defence is a worry and in over a year that hasn't been fixed, not sure there is evidence this can be quickly resolved now. Kalas coming back is also no guarantee in an upturn in performance, since he has been, for long periods, a part of that porous, problematic defence.

On the point about SL, I would suggest he left the building a lot more than 18months ago. He essentially handed control of the club to Mark Ashton a long time ago. We continue to pay for that misjudgement now.

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12 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Nige confirming he is NOT looking to start the season badly.  

224DDE78-DC73-47D5-A8FD-940FAC9FEB77.png

Brilliant, well that's reassured me no end. Would love to see the doom-sayers response?

Hint - it's insight like that which makes Nige a top tier manager, and not you.

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12 hours ago, Dolman_Stand said:

Nathan Jones

You honestly believe he’d leave a club that made the playoffs last season for us in our current financial state?

He’s also slagged us off twice in the media, once over the Naismith business & when he said he chose to join Cardiff as a player (he said he was never joining us).

Then there is the business over jumping ship once for Stoke & it not working out.

Fantasy stuff, you might as well suggest Klopp.

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1 hour ago, M.D said:

Im not panicking but I can't get over the fact that Nige has never really succeeded without Craig Shakespeare by his side..

This is the nagging doubt with Nige that just won't go away. And it was the recruitment bloke Walsh too, as well as Shakespeare. Add to this that he is trying to do it at Bristol City in the second tier, and his health, and you do wonder if it's all too much to ask. 

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Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere (I’ve looked but can’t find it) but I thought Pearson’s substitutions yesterday were desperately poor.  Taking off two defenders at the same time strikes me as a huge gamble, given the amount of reorganising required.  This was mentioned by Gary Owers on Radio Bristol.  I would have thought that the issue was strengthening midfield, and I accept we had limited resources, but why not use Naismith or Vyner as the holding midfield player (Vyner has played well there before) if he wanted to bring Klose on? What did we end up playing - 3214?  We had time to pull that one back with more resources in midfield.  Sadly I think that Pearson’s use of substitutes has been a consistent failing since he has been with us, and with the new arrangements this season this becomes even more important.

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12 hours ago, Dolman_Stand said:

Nathan Jones

interesting choice.......i must admit.......if we WERE to go after him, or anyone in actual fact, it is hard to tempt them, when it is explained that we are massively in debt and have no money to spend?  At present we are not a great proposition.  Which is why Pearson is probably the best we can hope for at this time, give it till the end of the window on Sept 1st, as, optimistically, i can see things happening positively?

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13 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere (I’ve looked but can’t find it) but I thought Pearson’s substitutions yesterday were desperately poor.  Taking off two defenders at the same time strikes me as a huge gamble, given the amount of reorganising required.  This was mentioned by Gary Owers on Radio Bristol.  I would have thought that the issue was strengthening midfield, and I accept we had limited resources, but why not use Naismith or Vyner as the holding midfield player (Vyner has played well there before) if he wanted to bring Klose on? What did we end up playing - 3214?  We had time to pull that one back with more resources in midfield.  Sadly I think that Pearson’s use of substitutes has been a consistent failing since he has been with us, and with the new arrangements this season this becomes even more important.

His use of substitutes in general, has not proved to be particularly smart or game changing  ....in the first 2 games, and also on a number of occasions last season...he does not seem to Utilise them very well IMHO.

Edited by maxjak
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1 hour ago, Agard Days Night said:

How far are you (personally) happy for the rot to set in until it’s clear it has not worked out?

It's been relative under different managers.

O'Driscoll and Cotts it was the bust ups with fans which killed it. LJ would have been the second losing streak (end of second season). Holden was the wrong appointment.

The key issue this season has been stupid individual errors.

If we have three or so games in a row where we are outright outplayed, and we don't shift shape, I'd probably be done.

The one thing I'll say for Nige is that, he's not really (barring first season) had any horrible runs, anything close to those under LJ at least. Added to which, there's never been a collective utterly poor series of performances.

It's when that does happen, now that he's recruited a fairer portion of this squad and how he reacts that will dictate my view.

My support of any manager is not endless. It simply depends on the context of their position and performances. And in the scope things at the minute, it's been stupid errors and individuals not playing well enough that's causing problems.

Edited by Fuber
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2 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

 I really like the theory of him as manager - quite different from before, shake up the lazy players stealing a good living, proven track record at this level. But I thought some things were a given- good organisation, strong spine, high work rate, bit of niggle. In other words, more perspiration than inspiration,

That was my expectation too, we'd be a scruffy "win ugly" team rather than expansive.

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1 hour ago, Agard Days Night said:

How far are you (personally) happy for the rot to set in until it’s clear it has not worked out?

The rot was here before he joined…the trend is upwards….slow….but upwards.  The rot is being removed. Explain why it’s clear?

15 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere (I’ve looked but can’t find it) but I thought Pearson’s substitutions yesterday were desperately poor.  Taking off two defenders at the same time strikes me as a huge gamble, given the amount of reorganising required.

he replaced a CB with a CB and a RWB with a RWB.  Little reorganisation needed.

This was mentioned by Gary Owers on Radio Bristol.  I would have thought that the issue was strengthening midfield, and I accept we had limited resources, but why not use Naismith or Vyner as the holding midfield player (Vyner has played well there before) if he wanted to bring Klose on?

you’ve just talked about “amount of reorganisation, then suggested moving several players to different positions.

What did we end up playing - 3214?

only from the 87th minute when Wells came on, and even then Weimann was dropping deeper.

We had time to pull that one back with more resources in midfield.  Sadly I think that Pearson’s use of substitutes has been a consistent failing since he has been with us, and with the new arrangements this season this becomes even more important.

It does indeed.

Comments above ⬆️⬆️⬆️

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27 minutes ago, Fuber said:

It's been relative under different managers.

O'Driscoll and Cotts it was the bust ups with fans which killed it. LJ would have been the second losing streak (end of second season). Holden was the wrong appointment.

The key issue this season has been stupid individual errors.

If we have three or so games in a row where we are outright outplayed, and we don't shift shape, I'd probably be done.

The one thing I'll say for Nige is that, he's not really (barring first season) had any horrible runs, anything close to those under LJ at least. Added to which, there's never been a collective utterly poor series of performances.

It's when that does happen, now that he's recruited a fairer portion of this squad and how he reacts that will dictate my view.

My support of any manager is not endless. It simply depends on the context of their position and performances. And in the scope things at the minute, it's been stupid errors and individuals not playing well enough that's causing problems.

Well said.

I think Nige is doing a good job.  SL mentioned yesterday about salary cap, and suggested a realistic Champ playing wage bill cap of £18-20m.  We are now under that, having been over it according to SL - not to be confused with total wage bill for football club (total £30.252m in 20/21).

My support isn’t endless but I could see us spiralling downwards had Nige not come in.  He’s had to make tough decisions, like operating with a small squad.

We are two games in, could have picked up points in both games but haven’t. We aren’t being outplayed, but then again, I don’t think both opponents are great either.

But I’m far from thinking Nige should go.

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Well said.

I think Nige is doing a good job.  SL mentioned yesterday about salary cap, and suggested a realistic Champ playing wage bill cap of £18-20m.  We are now under that, having been over it according to SL - not to be confused with total wage bill for football club (total £30.252m in 20/21).

My support isn’t endless but I could see us spiralling downwards had Nige not come in.  He’s had to make tough decisions, like operating with a small squad.

We are two games in, could have picked up points in both games but haven’t. We aren’t being outplayed, but then again, I don’t think both opponents are great either.

But I’m far from thinking Nige should go.

And that’s great and I think everyone appreciates the environment he is working under is far from ideal.

However it’s his seemingly continued inability to organise a team defensively that is surprising, as well as lack of resilience in holding onto a lead and not inviting pressure onto ourselves, especially deep into games.

Early days granted, and his financial situation is what it is, but we all thought Wilson, Klose and Naismith were good additions in the summer defensively- but two matches in and the frailties are still evident.

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25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The rot was here before he joined…the trend is upwards….slow….but upwards.  The rot is being removed. Explain why it’s clear?

I didn’t say it was clear. I was asking @Fubera question in direct reference to his previous post regarding keeping the faith until it was clear it was not working out. 

Agree the rot was here before NP joined but are you content he’s done enough to arrest the decline? It’s very much his squad now and the results, form and style of play are a reflection of that. IMHO. 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why are we so fixated by win percentage. He took over a car crash, is 20/21 really relevant?  Last season it was 32.6%.  This season it’s 0%. ??‍♂️

What stats in particular are you after…and what feeling are you trying to justify by those stats?

As I’ve said many times before, we are trying to recover from an awful position he inherited…that’s wider than what happens over 90 minutes.

The results and aspects of both performances this season have been very disappointing. There has been some good stuff too though.  But I agree with most that we should be doing better, but only a bit better….but some opinions are very extreme.

I dont disagree and at no point have said I want him sacked. I said at the end of last season I would give him 10 games and it still stands. 

My original post was because those who feel a little more extreme were bring told it was a knee jerk reaction, which it clearly is not as if we are honest the whole NP reign has been a car crash though not all his fault by any means but it always seems 1 step forward and then two steps back.

 

That is the reason I asked for his stats but as we all know stats can be looked at from various perspectives 

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1 minute ago, BS3_RED said:

My original post was because those who feel a little more extreme were bring told it was a knee jerk reaction, which it clearly is not as if we are honest the whole NP reign has been a car crash though not all his fault by any means but it always seems 1 step forward and then two steps back.

I don’t see it as a car cash at all.  I do see it as having to go backwards to go forwards though but not further backwards as “1 step forwards, 2 steps back” implies .  That’s not on Nige, in fact it’s huge credit to Nige, to get us through last summer with the huge amount of departures, start to balance the books, etc…and keep us safe from relegation, so much so that we were never in a relegation battle all season.  This summer has been more fire fighting.  Thank god we got early business done, because every transfer deal at this point is being swamped by bigger clubs / clubs with more financial headroom than us.  I honestly don’t think we will bring anyone in, unless one of the big players / earners go.  I’ll live with that.

If we can get a couple of players back fit we will look more like the side I see finishing mid-table.  Pre-season was good for embedding new players, but we are still weaker without Kalas and Semenyo.

We can’t “magic” signings out of nowhere.

I don’t expect Naismith to make mistakes like yesterday.

We have shown in spells in both games 1 & 2 we can play.  We need to learn how to take the sting out of our opponent.  Some of that is tactical.  Being hypercritical, do we need a LCB taking a throw-in when we’ve just gone 2-1 up, which leaves Naismith marking (rather than sweeping) and Vyner very isolated meaning we are 2v2.  It’s tiny details, but it matters.

Its bloody frustrating, my mood has dampened, because we are now playing a bit of catch-up, but I see fine tuning rather overhaul.  We actually need to work better at what we are doing, look for the root causes.  Talk about going to a back 4 might be the answer, but it’s “might”.  It might be simpler and more effective to just play Klose instead.  I do see some structure issues, but ones that can be remedied without ripping everything up.

Ill say it again….WSM (whoever the 3 components are) for all its strengths is one of our biggest weaknesses too.  When we got Scott free yesterday it’s great (first half), when we can’t it’s a huge weakness for the rest of the team.  We need to tweak it a bit.

I will continue to try to see the balance of the whole 90 mins, just like I do when we win, when I’m not a happy-Larry then, either.

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t see it as a car cash at all.  I do see it as having to go backwards to go forwards though but not further backwards as “1 step forwards, 2 steps back” implies .  That’s not on Nige, in fact it’s huge credit to Nige, to get us through last summer with the huge amount of departures, start to balance the books, etc…and keep us safe from relegation, so much so that we were never in a relegation battle all season.  This summer has been more fire fighting.  Thank god we got early business done, because every transfer deal at this point is being swamped by bigger clubs / clubs with more financial headroom than us.  I honestly don’t think we will bring anyone in, unless one of the big players / earners go.  I’ll live with that.

If we can get a couple of players back fit we will look more like the side I see finishing mid-table.  Pre-season was good for embedding new players, but we are still weaker without Kalas and Semenyo.

We can’t “magic” signings out of nowhere.

I don’t expect Naismith to make mistakes like yesterday.

We have shown in spells in both games 1 & 2 we can play.  We need to learn how to take the sting out of our opponent.  Some of that is tactical.  Being hypercritical, do we need a LCB taking a throw-in when we’ve just gone 2-1 up, which leaves Naismith marking (rather than sweeping) and Vyner very isolated meaning we are 2v2.  It’s tiny details, but it matters.

Its bloody frustrating, my mood has dampened, because we are now playing a bit of catch-up, but I see fine tuning rather overhaul.  We actually need to work better at what we are doing, look for the root causes.  Talk about going to a back 4 might be the answer, but it’s “might”.  It might be simpler and more effective to just play Klose instead.  I do see some structure issues, but ones that can be remedied without ripping everything up.

Ill say it again….WSM (whoever the 3 components are) for all its strengths is one of our biggest weaknesses too.  When we got Scott free yesterday it’s great (first half), when we can’t it’s a huge weakness for the rest of the team.  We need to tweak it a bit.

I will continue to try to see the balance of the whole 90 mins, just like I do when we win, when I’m not a happy-Larry then, either.

I agree on Klose. A symptom of taking too much account of pre-season is Nigel apparently deciding that Vyner did well so he should start rather than thinking, regardless of pre-season, that Klose is a better player so he should start.

It might be different if Vyner had a long term future here but he clearly doesn't.

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5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why are we so fixated by win percentage. He took over a car crash, is 20/21 really relevant?  Last season it was 32.6%.  This season it’s 0%. ??‍♂️

What stats in particular are you after…and what feeling are you trying to justify by those stats?

As I’ve said many times before, we are trying to recover from an awful position he inherited…that’s wider than what happens over 90 minutes.

The results and aspects of both performances this season have been very disappointing. There has been some good stuff too though.  But I agree with most that we should be doing better, but only a bit better….but some opinions are very extreme.

Absolutely correct Dave. I don't think some fans realise the true extent of the financial mismanagement which I may add will still impact upon us for this season.

I am looking for and its not unreasonable to expect that we will improve on last year's progress and that a top half finish is not an unrealistic prospect to aim for given that Pearson has traded in the players he wants and mostly traded out the ones deemed "not on the bus" but some fans on here seem to think these players and tactics can be bought just like that.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t see it as a car cash at all.  I do see it as having to go backwards to go forwards though but not further backwards as “1 step forwards, 2 steps back” implies .  That’s not on Nige, in fact it’s huge credit to Nige, to get us through last summer with the huge amount of departures, start to balance the books, etc…and keep us safe from relegation, so much so that we were never in a relegation battle all season.  This summer has been more fire fighting.  Thank god we got early business done, because every transfer deal at this point is being swamped by bigger clubs / clubs with more financial headroom than us.  I honestly don’t think we will bring anyone in, unless one of the big players / earners go.  I’ll live with that.

If we can get a couple of players back fit we will look more like the side I see finishing mid-table.  Pre-season was good for embedding new players, but we are still weaker without Kalas and Semenyo.

We can’t “magic” signings out of nowhere.

I don’t expect Naismith to make mistakes like yesterday.

We have shown in spells in both games 1 & 2 we can play.  We need to learn how to take the sting out of our opponent.  Some of that is tactical.  Being hypercritical, do we need a LCB taking a throw-in when we’ve just gone 2-1 up, which leaves Naismith marking (rather than sweeping) and Vyner very isolated meaning we are 2v2.  It’s tiny details, but it matters.

Its bloody frustrating, my mood has dampened, because we are now playing a bit of catch-up, but I see fine tuning rather overhaul.  We actually need to work better at what we are doing, look for the root causes.  Talk about going to a back 4 might be the answer, but it’s “might”.  It might be simpler and more effective to just play Klose instead.  I do see some structure issues, but ones that can be remedied without ripping everything up.

Ill say it again….WSM (whoever the 3 components are) for all its strengths is one of our biggest weaknesses too.  When we got Scott free yesterday it’s great (first half), when we can’t it’s a huge weakness for the rest of the team.  We need to tweak it a bit.

I will continue to try to see the balance of the whole 90 mins, just like I do when we win, when I’m not a happy-Larry then, either.

Agree 99%........but i do forsee with my crystal ball,   1 or 2  ...   departures and additions?  ?

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52 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Reading this  closely and put my thoughts on the start of the season elsewhere. 

Agree with subs stuff from before, they're often baffling. 

The run post Preston in Jan was utterly rank, we were terrible for large parts of that, so there's been LJ runs. 

I thought we'd fixed it at the end or towards the end of last season, yet different season, same problems. 

Agree slightly with @Davefevs about us not working where WSM or variants dont. However we struggle against teams who mix up tempos and we're still shipping goals.

It's not soley the players fault, something must have slipped since last season.

Also have nige and his staff actually improved players, better technique, passing decisions, positioning etc. 

I dont know hence asking. 

To me we looked more cohesive as any attacking side.  The way we play was clearer.  This time last season we were just belting long balls at Martin whereas now we're able to mix it up.

The worry for me was off the ball.  CM was a mess - we clearly missed James' positional intelligence.  This improved once Scott dropped into his best position and began knitting things together.  Scott has to start CM from now on.  I'd also move Sykes into CAM as he is not good enough defensively at WB.  

People like Dasilva but for me his crossing is mediocre and he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo - he really should've scored but missed by a mile from a great position.  Sykes was excellent going forward but caught out of position a lot. Wilson looks like he needs time to adapt.  If we want to tighten up, we need to play our defensively stronger WBs which means Tanner and Pring.

Clearly Klose needs to be in defence.  We defended well with him, Atkinson and Cundy last season.  

 

  BEntley

Klose Naismith Atkinson

Tanner Scott Williams/James Pring

                 Sykes

           Weimann Martin

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2 hours ago, The Bard said:

Scott has to start CM from now on.

? (might need to be pulled out every now and again, but that’s his future for me)

He will make the best out of wherever he plays, but I think he will influence the whole game from CM…and he has legs.

If we could find a way to get another body in midfield even better., but Scott needs to be in the thick of it…intelligent enough to play anywhere though.

Edited by Davefevs
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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

? (might need to be pulled out every now and again, but that’s his future for me)

He will make the best out of wherever he plays, but I think he will influence the whole game from CM…and he has legs.

If we could find a way to get another body in midfield even better., but Scott needs to be in the thick of it…intelligent enough to play anywhere though.

Scott Williams with Sykes in front. Jury still very much out on Williams has not started the season well.

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23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Very good first half, good last 15 too.

We just couldn’t get him on the ball in that 25 minute period where we lost the game.

I wanted him in central midfield.  FWIW I’d get rid of trying to replicate WSM whilst Semenyo isn’t fit.  Flatter midfield three, still happy if we play WBs though, but more 352 than 3412.  Think it would help Massengo too if he was part of an extra resourced midfield too, especially if James out.  So Alex Scott back into midfield for me.

But today he showed he can play and be effective in the hole, when we are playing better.  But he wasn’t able to influence in our poor period.  That is where we must improve.

Agree with that.  As I said somewhere else, I'd have Sykes in the centre. If we're playing a 3, one of them has to be able to break forward quickly both with and without the ball.  If he's one of 3 then he's got cover whereas at WB he exposes those behind him.  From what I saw of the FGR friendly, he was particularly effective in that role but got moved wide, I guess to accommodate Scott, Williams and James in the same team.  I see Sykes as an option at WB, maybe if we're chasing the game.   If Wilson isn't 100% play Tanner.  He's a good player.

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