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Lose % last 12 managers


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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The analogy is he’s had to knock down the building to relay the foundations.  It takes time.  Just because they’re his players, doesn’t mean they are who he’d ideally get if he different funds available to him.  He’s scrapping around free transfer and Lg1 / Lg2 players (also on frees).  He can’t generate transfer funds from Vyner, Moore, etc…nor can he generate them from Wells, etc, because they won’t forego their huge wages (allegedly).  Without transfer money, we are a huge loss making entity.  The answer to that it to cut costs in the playing side…which he’s done.

Sometimes you have to go backwards (summer 2022) to go forwards (end of last season).  Oh, let’s shit the bed because we’ve lost the first two games.

He is working with a thin squad with little depth , because the finances won’t allow it to be thin, but with depth / cover.

He took over a mess.

Yes, results are frustrating…but he hasn’t taken the club backwards…he’s rebuilding it with RG.

  ⬆️      He's right you know.    :yes:

 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The analogy is he’s had to knock down the building to relay the foundations.  It takes time.  Just because they’re his players, doesn’t mean they are who he’d ideally get if he different funds available to him.  He’s scrapping around free transfer and Lg1 / Lg2 players (also on frees).  He can’t generate transfer funds from Vyner, Moore, etc…nor can he generate them from Wells, etc, because they won’t forego their huge wages (allegedly).  Without transfer money, we are a huge loss making entity.  The answer to that it to cut costs in the playing side…which he’s done.

Sometimes you have to go backwards (summer 2022) to go forwards (end of last season).  Oh, let’s shit the bed because we’ve lost the first two games.

He is working with a thin squad with little depth , because the finances won’t allow it to be thin, but with depth / cover.

He took over a mess.

Yes, results are frustrating…but he hasn’t taken the club backwards…he’s rebuilding it with RG.

Whilst I agree with a lot of this @Davefevs, his stance on loan players continues to frustrate me.

His point about developing the players he has (rather than for other clubs) + loanees standing in the way of academy players only works for me if the actual truth wasn't 12+ players OOC at the end of the season anyhow?

There are players that we can get in on loan from the Championship & L1 that I think would either freshen up the first 11, or at least add a level of competition.

You very handily broke down the playing budget side of things from SL's interview. But I just get the feeling from RG's comments that we really are up against it financially.

The only way this will change in the short term is a sale of one of the 3 (Weimann, Scott, or Semenyeo). I think we all know now that HNM is running his contract down.

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27 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Whilst I agree with a lot of this @Davefevs, his stance on loan players continues to frustrate me.

His point about developing the players he has (rather than for other clubs) + loanees standing in the way of academy players only works for me if the actual truth wasn't 12+ players OOC at the end of the season anyhow?

There are players that we can get in on loan from the Championship & L1 that I think would either freshen up the first 11, or at least add a level of competition.

You very handily broke down the playing budget side of things from SL's interview. But I just get the feeling from RG's comments that we really are up against it financially.

The only way this will change in the short term is a sale of one of the 3 (Weimann, Scott, or Semenyeo). I think we all know now that HNM is running his contract down.

My only gripe with Nige is we are two good loan players away from getting results in this league. Imo if we had someone with pace at the back and a proper CDM we would have won both games to date. It wouldn’t make us play off candidates but life would be a lot smoother. However it should be obvious what he has been tasked with and until our FFP situation improves that will be the task at this club for ANY manager.

As far as Massengo goes I would allow him to run his contract down, sell him in Jan for whatever we can get or tell him to **** off at the end of the season. Either way he wouldn’t be near my first team 16 unless we had about eleven injuries. When he plays we concede chances for fun and his presence makes no difference to our output down the other end.

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5 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

He has his own back 4, James, King.

We concede a ridiculous amount of goals and goals that you’d be disappointed conceding at a much lower level. 
 

So many excuses for a bloke who’s taken this club backwards

Taken this Club Backwards ?

 

 

Depends how ‘deep’ you look and judge

?

Edited by Sheltons Army
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7 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Whilst I agree with a lot of this @Davefevs, his stance on loan players continues to frustrate me.

His point about developing the players he has (rather than for other clubs) + loanees standing in the way of academy players only works for me if the actual truth wasn't 12+ players OOC at the end of the season anyhow?

There are players that we can get in on loan from the Championship & L1 that I think would either freshen up the first 11, or at least add a level of competition.

You very handily broke down the playing budget side of things from SL's interview. But I just get the feeling from RG's comments that we really are up against it financially.

The only way this will change in the short term is a sale of one of the 3 (Weimann, Scott, or Semenyeo). I think we all know now that HNM is running his contract down.

I’m gonna sound really critical here Neil, but why would his stance on loan players CONTINUE to frustrate you?

His stance has CHANGED this summer, and he has give full details of why, e.g. culture.

They are actively looking at PL loans.  Whether they get any over the line, who knows.

I see us as “we are right in the limit”, not well inside and have money to play with with.  So how do we afford a loan or any signing if you think we are “up against it”, that’s making the situation worse isn’t it?

We don’t know how contract conversations are going, so we can’t bring in a loan and suddenly player x decides he’s gonna extend his time here.  It’s obviously much more complicated that that and the old domino effect comes into play.  As I’ve said before if Kalas was to extend tomorrow on £15k p.w instead of £25k p.w, then all of a sudden we have between £1.5m-£2.0m freed up in this years accounts.  If Wells was to leave, blah, blah, blah.

We don’t need to sell a “biggie”, we need to move on the players wasting budget.  Happy for you to include Massengo as a budget waster if you like.  I don’t, but we will continue to be in opposing camps on him…which is fine.

That is a very different statement to someone offering £20m for Scott.  £20m isn’t an “FFP sorter” it’s just too good and offer to turn down.

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m gonna sound really critical here Neil, but why would his stance on loan players CONTINUE to frustrate you?

His stance has CHANGED this summer, and he has give full details of why, e.g. culture.

They are actively looking at PL loans.  Whether they get any over the line, who knows.

I see us as “we are right in the limit”, not well inside and have money to play with with.  So how do we afford a loan or any signing if you think we are “up against it”, that’s making the situation worse isn’t it?

We don’t know how contract conversations are going, so we can’t bring in a loan and suddenly player x decides he’s gonna extend his time here.  It’s obviously much more complicated that that and the old domino effect comes into play.  As I’ve said before if Kalas was to extend tomorrow on £15k p.w instead of £25k p.w, then all of a sudden we have between £1.5m-£2.0m freed up in this years accounts.  If Wells was to leave, blah, blah, blah.

We don’t need to sell a “biggie”, we need to move on the players wasting budget.  Happy for you to include Massengo as a budget waster if you like.  I don’t, but we will continue to be in opposing camps on him…which is fine.

That is a very different statement to someone offering £20m for Scott.  £20m isn’t an “FFP sorter” it’s just too good and offer to turn down.

Im at the point now that im thinking selling scott is the only way we can move forward. Obviously some goes in the bank, but it should allow a couple of new signings to improve the squad. Also frees up a place for benarous when hes back.

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On 08/08/2022 at 16:43, REDOXO said:

LJ tasked himself with making the Europa League in five years (with assistance blowing money to the point we are still dealing with now)

 

 

 

This is just wrong and lies. Because LJ was Head Coach not manager, it was Ashton who spent the money.

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On 08/08/2022 at 16:55, WarksRobin said:

Pointless comparison, unless you think we acted too quickly to sack Brian Tinnion

No we did not. We had been sitting in League 1 for almost 10 years and the fact GJ came in and took us to a championship play off final from the bottom of league 1 in 3 years tells me in context GJ was our greatest ever manager period

Edited by Logical-City
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For my, the best managers in my 30 odd years of support are Danny Wilson for the style of football, GJ for being the closest in 40 years to get us to the Prem (and that night in the playoffs v Palace), and SC for winning the double, and I don’t care if the stats do or don’t back that up or what league they won games in either!  

Edited by Tinmans Love Child
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15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The analogy is he’s had to knock down the building to relay the foundations.  It takes time.  Just because they’re his players, doesn’t mean they are who he’d ideally get if he different funds available to him.  He’s scrapping around free transfer and Lg1 / Lg2 players (also on frees).  He can’t generate transfer funds from Vyner, Moore, etc…nor can he generate them from Wells, etc, because they won’t forego their huge wages (allegedly).  Without transfer money, we are a huge loss making entity.  The answer to that it to cut costs in the playing side…which he’s done.

Sometimes you have to go backwards (summer 2022) to go forwards (end of last season).  Oh, let’s shit the bed because we’ve lost the first two games.

He is working with a thin squad with little depth , because the finances won’t allow it to be thin, but with depth / cover.

He took over a mess.

Yes, results are frustrating…but he hasn’t taken the club backwards…he’s rebuilding it with RG.

This, this and this again! 

Slow progress is frustrating as a fan, but it's so necessary for our club to go through this process. We cannot know yet whether NP will be looked back on as a success or failure yet as we are yet to see the results of all the changes he's put in place. 

I'm personally still undecided on whether he's a good manager in terms of the football played, but I think (subjectivity) I've seen progress on the pitch over his tenure even if results haven't been good to start this season. 

I posted last season that I saw a 'good' spell as manager for NP would be to keep us up last season (tick), improve and get into top half this season without relegation worry, and a playoff push next season. In my view, unless we significantly deviate from that, there's no point in sacking him and ripping up the planned rebuild we are going through. 

If he can take us back to where we were under LJ (results-wise, not style-wise) as regular contenders for playoff spots, but with a significantly better run and more sustainable club behind the scenes and a better team culture then I think that whoever takes over (or if NP extends) will be in a really good position. 

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10 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

For my, the best managers in my 30 odd years of support are Danny Wilson for the style of football, GJ for being the closest in 40 years to get us to the Prem (and that night in the playoffs v Palace), and SC for winning the double, and I don’t care if the stats do or don’t back that up or what league they won games in either!  

But Gary’s achievement is not just getting us that close to the premier league it was getting us out of League 1 at the first attempt after 9 seasons of failure then a 4th, 10th and another 10th place finish before being sent packing to Peterborough after not being given a chance to rebuild a squad which turned his back on him lead by the poisonous Paul Hartley, who I may add left the following summer after ruining the dressing room after the damage was done.

Will never sit right with me how we all turned our backs on him.

Any manager after Gary simply added to his work and reputation he built. 

Edited by Logical-City
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My take on the "overall" , and I freely admit it can be hard to understand & see the big picture when things go slowly.

Pre - Pearson we had a bloated squad, unbalanced & directionless, playing unwatchable football, at best veering from winning streak to losing streak and no direction plan or fixed style or system. haemorrhaging money and the worst injury record in history. 

Pearson comes in to try and fix the Club which was clearly broken.

Back room and medical staff sorted , fitness staff brought in with plan. Squad decimated through necessity. Higher wage players moved on, again through necessity . Deals renegotiated saving money. Team running with a small squad , yet again due to finances necessary.  On the pitch  we simply could not hold onto or look after the ball well enough, that slowly is changing. 
Some of the signings he has made have been pretty much forced on him, in as much as finances meant we couldn't do anything else. Who knows where we would be if he has the spending power that Johnson had. 

I have questions, I am no Pearson apologist, but it is way too early to judge improvement this year. 

Hull, terrible Ref and a ridiculous deflection away from a good start. I've seen people complain about the defending for the second, but when it comes down to it, the shot was blocked and could have gone anywhere.

Sunderland, that error set the tone. I thought going forward we looked ok, I also think playing a promoted side first up is difficult and we have seen that over the years. Naismith was seen as a brilliant signing, I didn't see one complaint, he has yet to settle and has made big errors. The 2nd goal went between 2 pairs of legs and the first you have to wonder if Bentley could have done better.

We need to settle , and quickly, but I think time to judge is after 10 games or so. I do worry, mainly because of recent years watching the team struggle . But I am trying to be level headed. After the early signings I was optimistic , but tried not to get carried away. I will do the same now.

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On 08/08/2022 at 11:49, TonyTonyTony said:

Pretty damning that.

The context is that now, NP pretty much has his own defence. Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Wilson, Sykes are all NP signings

When is it right to judge how shit our defending is? How much longer do we just say "ah give Nige time"

We have 2 difficult away games and a severnside derby in the next 4 games - unless we pull out fingers out we could be sat at the bottom of the league then things will turn toxic

To put into context- NP Centre backs this season Klose, Vyner, Naismith, Atkinson. Last season add Kalas. Compare to Mciness, Fontaine, Mcmanus and Bates, even remember that Irish blonde lad playing left of a 3.

He has no excuses.

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On 08/08/2022 at 11:49, TonyTonyTony said:

Pretty damning that.

The context is that now, NP pretty much has his own defence. Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Wilson, Sykes are all NP signings

When is it right to judge how shit our defending is? How much longer do we just say "ah give Nige time"

We have 2 difficult away games and a severnside derby in the next 4 games - unless we pull out fingers out we could be sat at the bottom of the league then things will turn toxic

 

Until Christmas. Nothing is going to happen before then, but if we're bottom 3 I imagine the Lansdowns may take action.

I do expect this season to improve. How much it will though, is a matter of speculation. 

 

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19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The analogy is he’s had to knock down the building to relay the foundations.  It takes time.  Just because they’re his players, doesn’t mean they are who he’d ideally get if he different funds available to him.  He’s scrapping around free transfer and Lg1 / Lg2 players (also on frees).  He can’t generate transfer funds from Vyner, Moore, etc…nor can he generate them from Wells, etc, because they won’t forego their huge wages (allegedly).  Without transfer money, we are a huge loss making entity.  The answer to that it to cut costs in the playing side…which he’s done.

Sometimes you have to go backwards (summer 2022) to go forwards (end of last season).  Oh, let’s shit the bed because we’ve lost the first two games.

He is working with a thin squad with little depth , because the finances won’t allow it to be thin, but with depth / cover.

He took over a mess.

Yes, results are frustrating…but he hasn’t taken the club backwards…he’s rebuilding it with RG.

That’s your opinion Dave. 
Nothing to do with 2 games I didn’t mention that, you did. 
 

He’s had a whole summer to improve us defensively. He had the back end of last season. He hasn’t, he’s got a good enough squad there to be comfortably mid table.

We will see what happens but I’ve seen no sign of improvement defensively which is pretty scary. 
 

As I said you can continue to push your opinion across but I don’t agree. 

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34 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

That’s your opinion Dave. 
Nothing to do with 2 games I didn’t mention that, you did. 
 

He’s had a whole summer to improve us defensively. He had the back end of last season. He hasn’t, he’s got a good enough squad there to be comfortably mid table.

We will see what happens but I’ve seen no sign of improvement defensively which is pretty scary. 
 

As I said you can continue to push your opinion across but I don’t agree. 

It is my opinion, but some of that opinion is based on facts, certainly the financial mess we are still trying to navigate.  I was also posting generally re the “2 game knee-jerkers”

Fine if you don’t agree, it’s all about opinions.

Not everything done in pre-season comes to fruition from day one once the season starts either.  Best laid plans probably meant Kalas in the starting eleven.  Best laid plans problem didn’t expect Naismith to eff-up in the fourth minute, etc.  It’s football, shit happens.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It is my opinion, but some of that opinion is based on facts, certainly the financial mess we are still trying to navigate.  I was also posting generally re the “2 game knee-jerkers”

Fine if you don’t agree, it’s all about opinions.

Not everything done in pre-season comes to fruition from day one once the season starts either.  Best laid plans probably meant Kalas in the starting eleven.  Best laid plans problem didn’t expect Naismith to eff-up in the fourth minute, etc.  It’s football, shit happens.

Yeah I get that, I just think you look at the whole league and how they’ve navigated the “frees market” and loan market and I find it hard to see an argument regarding a thin squad. That’s by choice imo. 
 

Agreed and individual errors are not helping but it’s literally the same as last season. 
 

I feel this year Weimann will keep us up again if he stays fit 

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22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The analogy is he’s had to knock down the building to relay the foundations.  It takes time.  Just because they’re his players, doesn’t mean they are who he’d ideally get if he different funds available to him.  He’s scrapping around free transfer and Lg1 / Lg2 players (also on frees).  He can’t generate transfer funds from Vyner, Moore, etc…nor can he generate them from Wells, etc, because they won’t forego their huge wages (allegedly).  Without transfer money, we are a huge loss making entity.  The answer to that it to cut costs in the playing side…which he’s done.

Sometimes you have to go backwards (summer 2022) to go forwards (end of last season).  Oh, let’s shit the bed because we’ve lost the first two games.

He is working with a thin squad with little depth , because the finances won’t allow it to be thin, but with depth / cover.

He took over a mess.

Yes, results are frustrating…but he hasn’t taken the club backwards…he’s rebuilding it with RG.

He may have taken over a mess, but the mess were doing better than his brigade!

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On 08/08/2022 at 14:06, Davefevs said:

If we want to use “stats” of all City managers, then shouldn’t we do it for games at this level only?  It’s effing futile imho, even if you do that, but at least means you have a fairer comparison.

And how much you have had to spend and how much you have had to trim a wage bill and how many players do you have you don’t want 

All in all pointless 

 

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6 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

My take on the "overall" , and I freely admit it can be hard to understand & see the big picture when things go slowly.

Pre - Pearson we had a bloated squad, unbalanced & directionless, playing unwatchable football, at best veering from winning streak to losing streak and no direction plan or fixed style or system. haemorrhaging money and the worst injury record in history. 

Pearson comes in to try and fix the Club which was clearly broken.

Back room and medical staff sorted , fitness staff brought in with plan. Squad decimated through necessity. Higher wage players moved on, again through necessity . Deals renegotiated saving money. Team running with a small squad , yet again due to finances necessary.  On the pitch  we simply could not hold onto or look after the ball well enough, that slowly is changing. 
Some of the signings he has made have been pretty much forced on him, in as much as finances meant we couldn't do anything else. Who knows where we would be if he has the spending power that Johnson had. 

I have questions, I am no Pearson apologist, but it is way too early to judge improvement this year. 

Hull, terrible Ref and a ridiculous deflection away from a good start. I've seen people complain about the defending for the second, but when it comes down to it, the shot was blocked and could have gone anywhere.

Sunderland, that error set the tone. I thought going forward we looked ok, I also think playing a promoted side first up is difficult and we have seen that over the years. Naismith was seen as a brilliant signing, I didn't see one complaint, he has yet to settle and has made big errors. The 2nd goal went between 2 pairs of legs and the first you have to wonder if Bentley could have done better.

We need to settle , and quickly, but I think time to judge is after 10 games or so. I do worry, mainly because of recent years watching the team struggle . But I am trying to be level headed. After the early signings I was optimistic , but tried not to get carried away. I will do the same now.

8 men inside the box, defensive header, control, sets himself shoots. 8 men still inside the box. 
 
That’s not unlucky it’s laziness and a lack of concentration in the final minutes of the match. 
 

Which unsurprisingly has happened countless times over NP tenure and before. 

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Completely hypothetical- and of course open to debate, but this current team/squad, I would want Cotts in charge out of the the list given. Excellent at giving players a platform to play to their strengths, and creates and us v them attitude. After that, maybe GJ but think he struggled with more established pros, and Pearson. The rest, not so much. Honourable mention to Coppell of course 

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1 hour ago, Bs4Red said:

8 men inside the box, defensive header, control, sets himself shoots. 8 men still inside the box. 
 
That’s not unlucky it’s laziness and a lack of concentration in the final minutes of the match. 
 

Which unsurprisingly has happened countless times over NP tenure and before. 

I'm not saying we couldn't have done better, but you try and block the ball and they did. I thought it was drifting over at the time so there was a touch of bad luck.  It's not like we haven't defended too deep for the last 3/4 years, I'm hoping that a change towards more possession means we can keep the ball further up the pitch and not have to defend the box so much.

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image.png.14b0622a9faf4f4033b4ee9647263ce8.png

Pearson's reign....both win percentage and points per game trending up from start of last season.  League games only.  Progress isn't fast.

Average win percentage over his tenure 23.98%, current win percentage 26.98%

Average points per game over his tenure 0.95 ppg, current 1.03 ppg.

This won't be enough for some, but it's factual.

Like stocks and shares past performance isn't a guide to future performance, so its possible Pearson might regress this season.

I could be divisive and remove season 20/21, but I left it in, warts and all.

 

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23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

image.png.14b0622a9faf4f4033b4ee9647263ce8.png

Pearson's reign....both win percentage and points per game trending up from start of last season.  League games only.  Progress isn't fast.

Average win percentage over his tenure 23.98%, current win percentage 26.98%

Average points per game over his tenure 0.95 ppg, current 1.03 ppg.

This won't be enough for some, but it's factual.

Like stocks and shares past performance isn't a guide to future performance, so its possible Pearson might regress this season.

I could be divisive and remove season 20/21, but I left it in, warts and all.

 

I get what you’re saying Dave, although ‘progress isn’t fast’ might go down as the understatement of the day! I hope it speeds up, otherwise we’ll be looking at the 2040s before we make our next play off challenge ?

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2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I get what you’re saying Dave, although ‘progress isn’t fast’ might go down as the understatement of the day! I hope it speeds up, otherwise we’ll be looking at the 2040s before we make our next play off challenge ?

If you’re like me you’ve waited since the late 70s…what’s another 20 years! ???

The main point is we aren’t getting worse, we have improved a bit.  I hope for more and quicker improvement, but it’s a tough job imho.

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