Vyner

[Clutton Caveman]

OK I am putting my tin hat on ready for the flack my comments will surely get.

We have no defensive midfielder. Even when fit James is just not mobile enough and with his injury record will miss a lot of games.

Han is just not suited to that role.

Our chances of signing a good Championship level defensive midfielder look remote.

So why wouldn't we look at Vyner.

He is fast, he has a good pass in him (2 assists so far). Yes he has lapses in concentration but I think these would be less critical in midfield.

For me he would need lots of coaching but I cannot see any other option in our squad.

[Sir Geoff]

Lots on here would agree with you. But who would you leave out to accommodate him in that role ?

[Swede]

I agree with your comment. I've thought all along that he's better suited as a defensive midfielder rather than a central defender with lapses of concentration. But the trouble is with COD gone who will fill the scapegoat role?

I am sure Naismith will play the CDM role at some point for us as well.  In reality we need to get away from three at the back in order to accommodate a CDM. It will mean a change in Niges's tactics. 

[LondonBristolian]

My one question would be what the central defence looks like. Can Naismith play in a two and can he or Atkinson play on the right side of defence? 

I also sort of think that - if Naismith or Vyner are being touted as possible defensive midfielders - that is as much about whether we tweak where they are on the pitch and how they play in a back three as much as it is a formation change, which are subtly different things. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[Captain Beano]

Definitely worth a try!

.... extract from match report11 JAN 2021

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/vyners-midfield-role-martins-miscue-4875668

"Admit it, did anyone see Zak Vyner as the game-changing substitute that Bristol City were crying out for?

That’s what the former Aberdeen loanee turned out to be, taking over from Tyreeq Bakinson in midfield with ten minutes to play, and adding some forward thrust, regularly picking out the frontmen with incisive passes.

He certainly has the dynamism to play in the middle, possessing a great deal of pace and agility, with a defensive nous to go with his impressive, probing passing range.

The ability to play anywhere across the back four, and seamlessly slot into midfield when necessary shows the value of the 23-year-old, who has been one of City’s standout players so far this campaign."

I also recall he started a couple of times in midfield, and a got a MOM though I can't recall which game.  He's 6'1 too and adding a bit of height to the midfield would be no bad thing.

[kit]

Vyner is generally fine as a centre back in possession but the few times I've seen him where he has to worry about players in front and behind him he panicks and does stupid stuff.

Vyner is not the answer to our defensive midfield problems. He might have the ability to break up play, but that would be a hypothetical right now, but I think he'd cause more problems than he might cure if he were to play there. 

Square peg round hole...

[2015]

Vyner is good in friendlies, good in cup matches, good when the pressure isn't on. But when put under pressure and when we need concentration and to be tight, he loses his cool and does some really silly naive things.

He hasn't learned and he won't learn. Not good enough in Midfield in the long run either.

[Dan Robin]

I add the doubts about Williams and King's availability, which could leave us even weaker in midfield. Vyner DM probably can't be the long-term answer, but when Kalas will come back I'd try Zak there again.

[cidered abroad]

2 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

I add the doubts about Williams and King's availability, which could leave us even weaker in midfield. Vyner DM probably can't be the long-term answer, but when Kalas will come back I'd try Zak there again.

But when will Kalas be fit?

[Shuffle]

The problem is that the fans are almost waiting for his next mistake and you can see Vyner visibly wilt when there are groans when he inevitably does. He has had so many chances and although he can hit a good ball and is reasonably quick, he has not got the nastiness, concentration or desire to win required to be a championship footballer.   In plain he’s just too nice and would be best for both parties if he moved on. 
 

 

[stephenkibby.]

Apart from loss of concentration a couple of times a game, Vyner is far to passive for me.

Whenever he has a chance to leave a bit on a Striker he never dose, that for me is why he tends to get outmuscled, just not aggressive enough,

just not that type of player.

would imagine his bookings for a Center Back is pretty low.

[stephenkibby.]

6 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

The problem is that the fans are almost waiting for his next mistake and you can see Vyner visibly wilt when there are groans when he inevitably does. He has had so many chances and although he can hit a good ball and is reasonably quick, he has not got the nastiness, concentration or desire to win required to be a championship footballer.   In plain he’s just too nice and would be best for both parties if he moved on. 
 

 

we seem to agree.

[Red Army 75]

I really hoped he would do well. But IMO he just isn’t good enough for brutal Championship football. For us to progress we won’t be doing it if he is in the side. 

[BCFCGav]

Thought crossed my mind too, but my head says it won't work out. If things get more dire though, no harm could come from trying. 

[Unan]

2 assists

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Shuffle said:

The problem is that the fans are almost waiting for his next mistake and you can see Vyner visibly wilt when there are groans when he inevitably does. He has had so many chances and although he can hit a good ball and is reasonably quick, he has not got the nastiness, concentration or desire to win required to be a championship footballer.   In plain he’s just too nice and would be best for both parties if he moved on. 
 

 

It’s this.

Dispassionately Naismith was more to blame on Saturday but the difference is as soon as Zak made a mistake he crumbled & his only other contribution before getting the hook was to slice the ball up in the air, which resulted in Sykes picking up a knock as he attempted to stop their attack.

I really wanted another Academy product to succeed but think it is in everyone’s best interest if he moves on now, either on loan or permanently.

NP was ruthless with Taylor Moore, now he needs to have the same conversation with Zak.

[Alan Dicks]

1 hour ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

2 assists

He’s assisted the opposition more times than that.

[steveybadger]

3 hours ago, Captain Beano said:

Definitely worth a try!

.... extract from match report11 JAN 2021

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/vyners-midfield-role-martins-miscue-4875668

"Admit it, did anyone see Zak Vyner as the game-changing substitute that Bristol City were crying out for?

That’s what the former Aberdeen loanee turned out to be, taking over from Tyreeq Bakinson in midfield with ten minutes to play, and adding some forward thrust, regularly picking out the frontmen with incisive passes.

He certainly has the dynamism to play in the middle, possessing a great deal of pace and agility, with a defensive nous to go with his impressive, probing passing range.

The ability to play anywhere across the back four, and seamlessly slot into midfield when necessary shows the value of the 23-year-old, who has been one of City’s standout players so far this campaign."

I also recall he started a couple of times in midfield, and a got a MOM though I can't recall which game.  He's 6'1 too and adding a bit of height to the midfield would be no bad thing.

Didn’t he play CDM in Holden’s first 4 games (which we won?)?

Given our lack of options there are worse shouts.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

It’s this.

Dispassionately Naismith was more to blame on Saturday but the difference is as soon as Zak made a mistake he crumbled & his only other contribution before getting the hook was to slice the ball up in the air, which resulted in Sykes picking up a knock as he attempted to stop their attack.

I really wanted another Academy product to succeed but think it is in everyone’s best interest if he moves on now, either on loan or permanently.

NP was ruthless with Taylor Moore, now he needs to have the same conversation with Zak.

We had a topic on the forum around Vyner a few months ago. At the time, there was a general consensus that Vyner would be targeted by the opposition as they knew he was a weak link.

Sunderland manager reveals the game plan that helped ensure victory over Bristol City - Bristol Live (bristolpost.co.uk)

I think AN's words confirm to me, what every manager in the Championship thinks about Vyner in that position.

I was amazed when he came back into the side, as after all we all know what will happen eventually. With Cundy moving on, Idehen's problems, Klose not quite being there; coupled with Kalas's late recovery from injury forced us into a corner somewhat with him. But just like the centre midfield conundrum at present, teams have worked us out, and how to get about us.

They know that we will start strongly, won't be able to follow it on.  A reset at half time, followed by teams following instructions in the second half (we were 24th in second half points last season), cause us to generally fall apart.

The bench looked so lightweight on Sat, no replacement for Martin, or Williams (who after his early yellow card pulled out of a number of challenges, and was unable to have any sort of impact second half). The likes of Wells & Conway were unlikely to have an effect against a team sitting back, and denying us space. Indeed Conway got battered within the first 60 seconds of coming on.

The differential of course is Semenyeo going foward. His unpredictability, pace & power makes a huge difference. But that alone doesn't make up for the other deficiencies in the defensive side of the team.

Hopefully having either or both of the TKs back in the starting line up will make a difference.  

 

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Didn’t he play CDM in Holden’s first 4 games (which we won?)?

Given our lack of options there are worse shouts.

No, he didn’t. He played RCB3, where he has started this season.

I think he played there against PNE 2 seasons back and had a good game, but by the same token played there against Coventry and was poor.

If you wanted a stopper in front of a back 4/5 to combat direct play into a front pair I could see the merits, I’d still worry about switching off though.

But in our current system I think he’d be a poor fit.

Unless there is interest then he will remain here. I can see why Moore had interest and why he’s out on loan. We will have to see what happens with Zak.

 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

We had a topic on the forum around Vyner a few months ago. At the time, there was a general consensus that Vyner would be targeted by the opposition as they knew he was a weak link.

Sunderland manager reveals the game plan that helped ensure victory over Bristol City - Bristol Live (bristolpost.co.uk)

I think AN's words confirm to me, what every manager in the Championship thinks about Vyner in that position.

I was amazed when he came back into the side, as after all we all know what will happen eventually. With Cundy moving on, Idehen's problems, Klose not quite being there; coupled with Kalas's late recovery from injury forced us into a corner somewhat with him. But just like the centre midfield conundrum at present, teams have worked us out, and how to get about us.

The bench looked so lightweight on Sat, no replacement for Martin, or Williams (who after his early yellow card pulled out of a number of challenges, and was unable to have any sort of impact second half). The likes of Wells & Conway were unlikely to have an effect against a team sitting back, and denying us space. Indeed Conway got battered within the first 60 seconds of coming on.

 

I’ve answered your Martin point elsewhere but bluntly at present because of FFP & Wells still being on our books, we don’t have a replacement/cover for him at all.

I’m not sure about the rest of the bench, admittedly having both Tanner & Wilson on it seems a bit mad (though it was only because James dropped out) but Klose is an experienced, physical old pro & if Andy King isn’t good enough to replace Williams if necessary then the question needs to be asked why he got a new contract.

You know this, but we are trying to run with a smaller, cheaper squad & the absence of Kalas, Semenyo & on Saturday, James meant we had a first choice player missing from every outfield department.

At the risk of repeating myself I do think our best current option is Klose for Vyner, Wilson or Tanner for Sykes, with him then a viable midfield option, particularly with no James.

[mightyreds89]

Love it to work and less of a risk further forward but not sure he’s anywhere near physical enough. 

[NcnsBcfc]

45 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I’ve answered your Martin point elsewhere but bluntly at present because of FFP & Wells still being on our books, we don’t have a replacement/cover for him at all.

I’m not sure about the rest of the bench, admittedly having both Tanner & Wilson on it seems a bit mad (though it was only because James dropped out) but Klose is an experienced, physical old pro & if Andy King isn’t good enough to replace Williams if necessary then the question needs to be asked why he got a new contract.

You know this, but we are trying to run with a smaller, cheaper squad & the absence of Kalas, Semenyo & on Saturday, James meant we had a first choice player missing from every outfield department.

At the risk of repeating myself I do think our best current option is Klose for Vyner, Wilson or Tanner for Sykes, with him then a viable midfield option, particularly with no James.

I've finally got around to listening to the full 16 minute SL interview on RB before the game.

He says he's not concerned about FFP?

I don't know what that means really. But of note, he now says our wage budget is below £20m

Now I'm confused, as RG said that our wage budget this season would be the same as last (approx £25m i'm led to believe).

Either way, we are either still making cuts across our wage budgets ( in contrast to the RG interview on RB), or someone is telling porkies somewhere.

We were the only club in the 72 last season not to have a loan. If there isn't the finances to fund permanent signings, then surely loans have to be an option?

I get the loan fees charged by PL clubs may mean those are unattainable. But I can't believe clubs in the Championship or L1 would be wanting a similar financial arrangement.

Rob Hathway has put on our whatsapp group a possible interesting team selection.:-

Bentley

Tanner, Klose, Atkinson, Dasilva

           Naismith

Wilson, Williams, Scott, Sykes

            Weimann

In the absence of Semenyeo, and after watching Naismith on Sat. I thing it's an interesting formation. Albeit it means dropping Martin (something NP will be loath to do).

Certainly looks a lot more solid defensively.

@GrahamC and I love your bluntness 

Edited August 8, 2022 by NcnsBcfc

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I've finally got around to listening to the full 16 minute SL interview on RB before the game.

He says he's not concerned about FFP?

I don't know what that means really. But of note, he now says our wage budget is below £20m

Now I'm confused, as RG said that our wage budget this season would be the same as last (approx £25m i'm led to believe).

Either way, we are either still making cuts across our wage budgets ( in contrast to the RG interview on RB), or someone is telling porkies somewhere.

We were the only club in the 72 last season not to have a loan. If there isn't the finances to fund permanent signings, then surely loans have to be an option?

I get the loan fees charged by PL clubs may mean those are unattainable. But I can't believe clubs in the Championship or L1 would be wanting a similar financial arrangement.

Rob Hathway has put on our whatsapp group a possible interesting team selection.:-

Bentley

Tanner, Klose, Atkinson, Dasilva

           Naismith

Wilson, Williams, Scott, Sykes

            Weimann

In the absence of Semenyeo, and after watching Naismith on Sat. I thing it's an interesting formation. Albeit it means dropping Martin (something NP will be loath to do).

Certainly looks a lot more solid defensively.

@GrahamC and I love your bluntness 

I’m certainly not the financial expert on here Neil, but I am assuming SL is talking about FFP solely from a points deduction perspective?

I cannot see that we have a similar budget, last summer we removed 15 players from the wage bill & only added 5 (Weimann & Baker were already here), this summer O’Dowda, Palmer, Cundy & Bakinson’s wages surely must have been more than those of Naismith, Sykes & Wilson.

As for Rob’s side, we have bet the farm on Naismith, so I cannot see him being switched positionally, any more than Martin being dropped.

Not important in the scheme of things but Wednesday’s selection will be interesting, Weimann & Scott need a rest, Williams doesn’t play 2 games a week & James must be a doubt, certainly an opportunity for some fringe players..

Edited August 8, 2022 by GrahamC

[Davefevs]

Neil - you are are mixing up “playing budget” (in terms of below £18-20m as per SL) and wages of the football club.  In the last accounts it was £30.252m.  My gut feel is we brought down football club wages to circa £24m, and it appears SL is saying the current wages that would make up a potential “FFP salary cap” are below £18m.  As a ballpark I’m now gonna work on 1st team wages are around 75% of BCFC Ltd wage costs.  When accounts come out I’ll adjust if needed.

[NcnsBcfc]

52 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Neil - you are are mixing up “playing budget” (in terms of below £18-20m as per SL) and wages of the football club.  In the last accounts it was £30.252m.  My gut feel is we brought down football club wages to circa £24m, and it appears SL is saying the current wages that would make up a potential “FFP salary cap” are below £18m.  As a ballpark I’m now gonna work on 1st team wages are around 75% of BCFC Ltd wage costs.  When accounts come out I’ll adjust if needed.

Thanks Dave, as ever you are better than me on this.

So when he says a salary cap of £18-20m is that for players, or for the wages of the football club?

If it just covered the players, I could see various clubs giving players positions within the club; that aren't covered by the salary cap.

Or is that what got Saracens into trouble a few years ago?

EDIT: As an aside, do you believe that our "playing budget" then is the same size as last year? As per RG's comments on RB.

Edited August 8, 2022 by NcnsBcfc

[NcnsBcfc]

48 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I’m certainly not the financial expert on here Neil, but I am assuming SL is talking about FFP solely from a points deduction perspective?

I cannot see that we have a similar budget, last summer we removed 15 players from the wage bill & only added 5 (Weimann & Baker were already here), this summer O’Dowda, Palmer, Cundy & Bakinson’s wages surely must have been more than those of Naismith, Sykes & Wilson.

As for Rob’s side, we have bet the farm on Naismith, so I cannot see him being switched positionally, any more than Martin being dropped.

Not important in the scheme of things but Wednesday’s selection will be interesting, Weimann & Scott need a rest, Williams doesn’t play 2 games a week & James must be a doubt, certainly an opportunity for some fringe players..

Sorry Graham. As ever I need to be clearer here.

RG insinuated on the 20man RB interview, that the playing budget for season 22-23 would be no less than the playing budget for 21-22 when he was asked.

It was just the figures from SL's interview that made me think that the "Playing budget" had dropped lower that 21-22, thus calling into question RG's comments in the above interview.

@Davefevs has once again helped by understanding of the differential of playing budget from wages of the football club. It was the wages of the football club that gets bandied around a lot at 200+% of turnover; and that of players. Whereas of course it covers all employees of the football club. Including the analysts on £3.47 per hour.

 

[Gimme Shelton]

I'd rather have had Marlon back

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Thanks Dave, as ever you are better than me on this.

So when he says a salary cap of £18-20m is that for players, or for the wages of the football club?

If it just covered the players, I could see various clubs giving players positions within the club; that aren't covered by the salary cap.

Or is that what got Saracens into trouble a few years ago?

EDIT: As an aside, do you believe that our "playing budget" then is the same size as last year? As per RG's comments on RB.

If it follows the new FIFA method it will be pretty much aligned to Lg1/2 SCMP methodology it will be players pro contracted other than youth on pro contracts plus the “manager”.

Just for sake of argument and as an example (ignore Nige for this)let’s say our playing wage bill is £16m and we currently have toughly 30 pro players, then the average wage is about £10k p.w. Sounds about right. 

[maxjak]

Alex Neil stated after the match that he used two of his best players (Clarke and Pritchard)    to overload their left/our right hand side........up against Sykes and Vyner it proved to be no contest?

Edited August 9, 2022 by maxjak