Project Whitebeam

[Port Said Red]

Well we may not be up there with FGR, but good to see the club making these initiatives.

To be honest I would think a few may be as surprised as me as to how much we do already, I have never noticed the solar panels from the aerial shots of the ground for example.

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/city-launch-project-whitebeam/

[pongo88]

I’m glad the surplus match day  food is given to a charity. Surplus food from commercial outlets is often just binned

[The Humble Realist]

Obviously supportive of any environmental initiatives etc but clubs do need to look in the mirror seriously if they actually are serious. 

Did we fly to Hull? 

Did we need to fly to Austria for pre season?

This is all clubs not just us. If clubs are really serious they need to cut these sorts of things out rather than just signing up to initiatives etc

[Pezo]

16 minutes ago, The Humble Realist said:

Obviously supportive of any environmental initiatives etc but clubs do need to look in the mirror seriously if they actually are serious. 

Did we fly to Hull? 

Did we need to fly to Austria for pre season?

This is all clubs not just us. If clubs are really serious they need to cut these sorts of things out rather than just signing up to initiatives etc

I think it's about what can you do that's not going to effectively give the opposition an advantage - while we need to consider environmental impacts highly we still need to maintain every competitive advantage we can. No point in a club our size saying we will give up some competitive edge to get relegated 3 leagues and some other club replacing us because they are willing to not be as concerned about environmental issues - rather simplified but I guess this is what each country has been trying to deal with individually on a global scale.

[italian dave]

54 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I think it's about what can you do that's not going to effectively give the opposition an advantage - while we need to consider environmental impacts highly we still need to maintain every competitive advantage we can. No point in a club our size saying we will give up some competitive edge to get relegated 3 leagues and some other club replacing us because they are willing to not be as concerned about environmental issues - rather simplified but I guess this is what each country has been trying to deal with individually on a global scale.

It’s exactly that (what countries are having to deal with) but the problem is that it becomes a race to the bottom. India and China won’t do something because first world countries got away with it for years. The UK or US won’t do something because China and India won’t do it.

City won’t do something because other clubs won’t be doing it. And other clubs won’t do it because City aren’t doing it.

And in a country that purports to dislike regulation/legislation and prefer ‘voluntary’ ways forward that’s always going to be the case.

Meanwhile, North Somerset disappears into the sea, Mediterranean countries burn, and we all run short of food and water.

And all because City flew to Hull. 

The latter is a joke, of course, but there’s a point to it, someone has to lead. That’s one reason I’ve got a lot of time for what they do at FGR.

edit: and there’s lots of good stuff in what City are doing here. The food miles one stood out too. That’s impressive. Still more though: the Hummel kits may be recycled, but why do they have to come all the way round the world from China to get here. At that price they should be manufactured here too. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by italian dave

[Rocking Red Cyril]

This is great but all clubs in all sports need to be reading from the same eco page.

[Pezo]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It’s exactly that (what countries are having to deal with) but the problem is that it becomes a race to the bottom. India and China won’t do something because first world countries got away with it for years. The UK or US won’t do something because China and India won’t do it.

City won’t do something because other clubs won’t be doing it. And other clubs won’t do it because City aren’t doing it.

And in a country that purports to dislike regulation/legislation and prefer ‘voluntary’ ways forward that’s always going to be the case.

Meanwhile, North Somerset disappears into the sea, Mediterranean countries burn, and we all run short of food and water.

And all because City flew to Hull. 

The latter is a joke, of course, but there’s a point to it, someone has to lead. That’s one reason I’ve got a lot of time for what they do at FGR.

edit: and there’s lots of good stuff in what City are doing here. The food miles one stood out too. That’s impressive. Still more though: the Hummel kits may be recycled, but why do they have to come all the way round the world from China to get here. At that price they should be manufactured here too. 

I'm not interested in a lower living standard and I'm not interested in telling Chinese or Indian's that they should expect a lower standard than me. If the club had green options for travel I would hope they would use them but until we invest in the technology to make green cheaper or even just an option then nothing can really change - so there is the answer investment in green technology.

Stopping lobbying would be a great improvement as well.

[Bristol Rob]

Most pleasing of the initiative isn't the reduction in carbon, or the food they donate. It's the fact the RHPC us a Gas Free facility.

Take that Fewers! You ain't welcome.

[Port Said Red]

I think this is going into a political argument, but for those saying ah yes but...... we use planes and a diesel coach and, and, and.

Until there are genuine alternatives to some of these things (planes with electric engines that are commercially viable etc) there will always be stuff we can't do because the option to do something is not there yet, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make a difference in the areas we do have control over.

I have had so many discussions along these lines since buying an electric car, being told how much CO2 and emissions are used in the building of my ev, like a normal car doesn't have those issues and then continues to create pollution. Ooh and the electric production isn't clean, and, and, and ..... I don't have control over these things, but I can run an electric car which is slightly better than not and it's little steps that become a big difference.

I can have a solar system with a battery installed, both of these things have eaten into my savings, but I believe I get a better return on that investment than I could ever get if I just stick it in a high interest account. 

And yes, at the end of the day I want to feel I am "doing my bit" and I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that. 

[Eddie Hitler]

9 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I can have a solar system with a battery installed, both of these things have eaten into my savings, but I believe I get a better return on that investment than I could ever get if I just stick it in a high interest account. 

 

The solar panels will pay for themselves but the battery is a waste of both money and resources.

[italian dave]

29 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I'm not interested in a lower living standard and I'm not interested in telling Chinese or Indian's that they should expect a lower standard than me. If the club had green options for travel I would hope they would use them but until we invest in the technology to make green cheaper or even just an option then nothing can really change - so there is the answer investment in green technology.

Stopping lobbying would be a great improvement as well.

Hard to argue with that, but of course if everyone uses living standards as a reason for doing nothing then we all end up with infinitely worse living standards as a consequence. 

Agree that investment in green technology is critical - which is why it’s so disappointing that both Tory leadership candidates are committed to removing the green levy. 

[And Its Smith]

59 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It’s exactly that (what countries are having to deal with) but the problem is that it becomes a race to the bottom. India and China won’t do something because first world countries got away with it for years. The UK or US won’t do something because China and India won’t do it.

City won’t do something because other clubs won’t be doing it. And other clubs won’t do it because City aren’t doing it.

And in a country that purports to dislike regulation/legislation and prefer ‘voluntary’ ways forward that’s always going to be the case.

Meanwhile, North Somerset disappears into the sea, Mediterranean countries burn, and we all run short of food and water.

And all because City flew to Hull. 

The latter is a joke, of course, but there’s a point to it, someone has to lead. That’s one reason I’ve got a lot of time for what they do at FGR.

edit: and there’s lots of good stuff in what City are doing here. The food miles one stood out too. That’s impressive. Still more though: the Hummel kits may be recycled, but why do they have to come all the way round the world from China to get here. At that price they should be manufactured here too. 

I agree wholeheartedly with your whole post apart from the last bit. I don’t have an answer unfortunately but I suspect if they were manufactured in this country the price for fans would be at least treble and nobody would buy one. The cost of producing stuff in this country compared to China is insane. My employers can produce a toy in China and get it to this country for as little as 90p per piece in some cases. Would be at least £2.50 in this country. I’m sure the same would apply to football shirts 

[italian dave]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

I agree wholeheartedly with your whole post apart from the last bit. I don’t have an answer unfortunately but I suspect if they were manufactured in this country the price for fans would be at least treble and nobody would buy one. The cost of producing stuff in this country compared to China is insane. My employers can produce a toy in China and get it to this country for as little as 90p per piece in some cases. Would be at least £2.50 in this country. I’m sure the same would apply to football shirts 

You clearly have more knowledge about this than I do. But in my simple mind, if something retails for £50+, then I’m struggling to see how a difference between 90p and £2.50 in the manufacturing cost can make that much difference. 

And presumably there’s a cost to getting it from China to here. Financial - and even more so environmental. 

[beaverface]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

It’s exactly that (what countries are having to deal with) but the problem is that it becomes a race to the bottom. India and China won’t do something because first world countries got away with it for years. The UK or US won’t do something because China and India won’t do it.

City won’t do something because other clubs won’t be doing it. And other clubs won’t do it because City aren’t doing it.

And in a country that purports to dislike regulation/legislation and prefer ‘voluntary’ ways forward that’s always going to be the case.

Meanwhile, North Somerset disappears into the sea, Mediterranean countries burn, and we all run short of food and water.

And all because City flew to Hull. 

The latter is a joke, of course, but there’s a point to it, someone has to lead. That’s one reason I’ve got a lot of time for what they do at FGR.

edit: and there’s lots of good stuff in what City are doing here. The food miles one stood out too. That’s impressive. Still more though: the Hummel kits may be recycled, but why do they have to come all the way round the world from China to get here. At that price they should be manufactured here too. 

I'm not having a dig, but after reading all the initiatives that City already have in place, how far behind FGR are we? 

I understand they're Vegan, and their shirts are made from bamboo(I think?) - but what other initiatives are they leading the way with, that City could adopt?

I'm genuinely interested where we lag behind in comparison?

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

You clearly have more knowledge about this than I do. But in my simple mind, if something retails for £50+, then I’m struggling to see how a difference between 90p and £2.50 in the manufacturing cost can make that much difference. 

And presumably there’s a cost to getting it from China to here. Financial - and even more so environmental. 

Sorry my example was for something much cheaper. It is made in China AND transported to the Uk for a cost of 90p.  The public buy it for £2.00.  If we manufactured in the UK then the cost would be at least £2.50 so would need to be sold for at least £3.50-4.00 and nobody would buy it as it’s not worth that.  The same principle works for any price point. A UK manufactured football shirt would be at least £100 I reckon if not more. Unfortunately there isn’t an answer right now. Some things once produced in China are now produced in Vietnam, India and Mexico but only because those companies don’t want to deal with the Chinese, it’s not (as far as i know) for any environmental reason. It’s just the next cheapest place to get things made 

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, beaverface said:

I'm not having a dig, but after reading all the initiatives that City already have in place, how far behind FGR are we? 

I understand they're Vegan, and their shirts are made from bamboo(I think?) - but what other initiatives are they leading the way with, that City could adopt?

I'm genuinely interested where we lag behind in comparison?

Their new stadium is being made of wood.  That’s quite a big statement.  You have the vegan and shirts (might be bamboo….I had coffee beans in my head for some reason) and I believe their coaches are electric.  Not sure what else. 

[Alan Dicks]

 

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, beaverface said:

I'm not having a dig, but after reading all the initiatives that City already have in place, how far behind FGR are we? 

I understand they're Vegan, and their shirts are made from bamboo(I think?) - but what other initiatives are they leading the way with, that City could adopt?

I'm genuinely interested where we lag behind in comparison?

It’s a fair point, and my posts haven’t been intended as having a dig at City, who I think are doing a lot of good things. They were more about suggesting that we should keep heading in the right direction and not go into reverse just because others are further behind.

FGR are clearly at the forefront I think, and they’ve shown what I’d call real leadership by sticking to their principles even when those have sometimes been unpopular or derided. 

Bamboo shirts (I think they are trialling some made out of coffee waste), an organic pitch, certified carbon neutral, the new ground (and traditional construction is incredibly carbon intensive) - it’s not so much about a list of who does what I think the difference with FGR is that they genuinely put sustainability at the heart of their decision making in everything they do. I’m not knocking City, but I don’t think they are at that point yet. 

[italian dave]

15 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Sorry my example was for something much cheaper. It is made in China AND transported to the Uk for a cost of 90p.  The public buy it for £2.00.  If we manufactured in the UK then the cost would be at least £2.50 so would need to be sold for at least £3.50-4.00 and nobody would buy it as it’s not worth that.  The same principle works for any price point. A UK manufactured football shirt would be at least £100 I reckon if not more. Unfortunately there isn’t an answer right now. Some things once produced in China are now produced in Vietnam, India and Mexico but only because those companies don’t want to deal with the Chinese, it’s not (as far as i know) for any environmental reason. It’s just the next cheapest place to get things made 

Sorry, my fault, I didn’t read your post properly. 

Didn’t we have a UK made shirt not very long ago? And I’m pretty sure some top flight club shirts are manufactured in Europe nowadays. 

I know what you mean though: I try very hard to buy products made in Europe and in some sectors (toys being one) it’s pretty well near impossible sometimes.

But we don’t seem to try very hard in the UK. When I go to Italy it’s pretty easy to buy things manufactured in Italy (not toys or tech though), much much more difficult here. 

Do you think the economics of buying from the far east are changing though?? As the Chinese expect a higher standard of living, as transport costs increase. Is that changing what we can expect in the future??

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Sorry, my fault, I didn’t read your post properly. 

Didn’t we have a UK made shirt not very long ago? And I’m pretty sure some top flight club shirts are manufactured in Europe nowadays. 

I know what you mean though: I try very hard to buy products made in Europe and in some sectors (toys being one) it’s pretty well near impossible sometimes.

But we don’t seem to try very hard in the UK. When I go to Italy it’s pretty easy to buy things manufactured in Italy (not toys or tech though), much much more difficult here. 

Do you think the economics of buying from the far east are changing though?? As the Chinese expect a higher standard of living, as transport costs increase. Is that changing what we can expect in the future??

Costs are going up but mostly due to their factory costs/materials rising. A bit of it is increased labour costs but the labour costs are still miles behind anywhere else. Still a long way off any changes in regards to country of production

[italian dave]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

Costs are going up but mostly due to their factory costs/materials rising. A bit of it is increased labour costs but the labour costs are still miles behind anywhere else. Still a long way off any changes in regards to country of production

Still, when we’ve got our own slave labour, unregulated, charter cities……….

[luke_bristol]

3 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

Obviously supportive of any environmental initiatives etc but clubs do need to look in the mirror seriously if they actually are serious. 

Did we fly to Hull? 

Did we need to fly to Austria for pre season?

This is all clubs not just us. If clubs are really serious they need to cut these sorts of things out rather than just signing up to initiatives etc

Its the curse of the modern age. Preaching water while drinking wine.  
 

E2A: this isn’t a dig at the club, I really like that excess food is given to the needy.

Edited August 11, 2022 by luke_bristol

[Elruliri]

58 minutes ago, luke_bristol said:

Its the curse of the modern age. Preaching water while drinking wine.  
 

E2A: this isn’t a dig at the club, I really like that excess food is given to the needy.

I agree giving food to people who need it is a great thing to do. My mother in law used to work as a manageress for greggs and was told to throw all the food that wasn't sold in the bin, that's criminal!

[The Humble Realist]

Genuinely good stuff in the clubs announcement but in reality if we keep flying to Hull(we being football clubs ) it's just PR from a climate change point of view. 

I do genuinely applaud some of the initiatives, its great Matt Parsons delivers food parcels at every away game for example. 

However , until there are changes in travel as an absolute minimum its jsur skirting round the edges. This is all clubs  not just us 

[Henry]

I struggle to believe there is zero waste to landfill.

[italian dave]

23 minutes ago, Henry said:

I struggle to believe there is zero waste to landfill.

Oooh, I don’t know…..quite a lot went to Coventry, Cardiff and Sheffield Wednesday. 

[Jeez]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

The solar panels will pay for themselves but the battery is a waste of both money and resources.

What makes you think that?

I thought a battery on the Solar is the way to ensure you get you use what you generate, that is if you’re household and are out all day for work & school etc

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Their new stadium is being made of wood.  That’s quite a big statement.  You have the vegan and shirts (might be bamboo….I had coffee beans in my head for some reason) and I believe their coaches are electric.  Not sure what else. 

They used an electric coach for the trip to Horfield the day they got promoted (& presumably they did so again first game of the season?) but FGR readily admit that at present the facilities to use it for much longer journeys than a 60 mile round trip aren’t there.

I think we are at the very start of the electric revolution re travel & are playing catch up regarding it as a society.

[eardun]

Hadn’t appreciated they had done this (or maybe @Never to the dark sideis on the payroll - well he did get me on the train to Parson St):
We have worked with GWR to provide additional post-match services from our closest railway station, Parson Street

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, Jeez said:

What makes you think that?

I thought a battery on the Solar is the way to ensure you get you use what you generate, that is if you’re household and are out all day for work & school etc

 

I've looked into it because I have a 4kW / 16 panel system.

That caught the last of the decent FiTs so has already paid back in cash at 7.5 years but it would still pay back over a longer term if I fiitted it today in a combination of lower tariffs and usage savings.  Maybe 12 years. If I moved house tomoroow then I would fit another solar panel system.

Adding a battery seems like a good idea, as why not keep the electricty which you generate, but when you actually cost it the payback time (huge variance but I worked it out for my own usage) is >25 years whilst the anticipated life of the batteries is c. 15 years or less.

Similar logic applies to those systems which divert excess generated electricty to the hot water.  My boiler goes from cold to piping hot in half an hour yet, during high summer, my system generates sufficient electricity to run it for ten hours every day.  The diversion system simply isn't worth the money.

Batteries for solar and power diversion systems to hot water both seem to be a good and virtuous idea until you actually start running the maths.

What would make sense is a diversion system to an EV battery if you already have an EV.  Although similarly it isn't worth lashing out on the diverter and the EV, £30k - £40k, in order to save £1k a year or whatever in fuel costs.  It only makes sense if you have already bought an EV.

I'm not against these measures, my roof is covered in solar panels, but if they don't make financial sense then they aren't genuinely green.  They are using more resources than they save.

I wouldn't, for example, buy an ASHP as again they simply do not make financial sense against a gas boiler. or put up a small domestic wind turbine.

 

At present there are only two genuinely "green" measures that you can take for your house: install solar panels and improve your insulation and I would recommend that everyone in a psoition to do either do so.

Everything else is marketing for profit.