Bank balance

[Tom Fleuriot]

I seem to recall at Steve Lansdown's presentation last Autumn something about us shaving £2 million off City's debt (before the sale of Cotterill).

Considering the two cup runs, slightly increased attendances, cotterill, and a little more shaved off the wage bill since, are we near the black or do we still have miles to go?

Does someone like nibor / Robbored know? I wonder because it would probably make us one of the few teams in the lague not in the red, and would be a superb platform for building from and give me more confidence for the future...

[Red Cloud]

I seem to remember our debt being down from £5.x million to around £2 million - not sure how we got to that though (or I misread it!) - can anyone clarify this?

[icamanicity]

If you count all cup games and the three to come, at least, all gate, tv, and prize monies should be in the region of about £800,000 + not less could be more thats just based on an have of £14-£15 per head..

[Red Cloud]

I would have thought that quite a bit of the extra money raised so far would have gone in player bonuses, policing etc... - think what the game against the gash will cost!

Can anyone confirm that our debt was £2 million in our last accounting year? - if so how did we get down from £5+ so quickly?

[sambessey]

I think we LOST another 2 million last year...

[Red to the world]

I seem to recall at Steve Lansdown's presentation last Autumn something about us shaving £2 million off City's debt (before the sale of Cotterill).

Considering the two cup runs, slightly increased attendances, cotterill, and a little more shaved off the wage bill since, are we near the black or do we still have miles to go?

Does someone like nibor / Robbored know? I wonder because it would probably make us one of the few teams in the lague not in the red, and would be a superb platform for building from and give me more confidence for the future...

The clubs accounts are in the public domain and at the end of the financial year ( fast approaching ) you will be able to view them on line if you so wish.

Not immediately but after a month or so.

[Nibor]

OK I watched the AGM presentation again tonight out of interest so here's what I think I've gleaned from both that and the previous year's accounts.

Accounts for the financial year ending May 05 show we made a loss £1.97m. Revenue purely from football was £3.367m. Other revenue was £2.778m. Costs were £7.969m of which wages were £4.202m. Debt at the end of FY 05 was £5.104m. Those accounts didn't include the sale of Lita and a couple of others that happened in the summer, that was accounted in the next FY. They also didn't include the cost of the 7 signings we made that summer including Stewart.

Last financial year ending in May 06 we made a loss of £1.176m. Those accounts included profit from transfers of £1.744m. Revenue from football was £3.29m. Other revenue was £3.205m. Costs were £9.154m, of which wages were £4.170m. Debt was at £2.018m at the end of the FY 06. It was mentioned that the increased costs were partly due to reinvestment in the squad but also significantly due to the cost of setting up two big gigs in the summer which helped generate the increased other revenue.

Clearly our debt should have been higher because we lost more money... however a total of £4.158m was invested in "A Ordinary shares" and loan stock by SteveL, Keith Dawe and the Gooch family which in several years become ordinary shares if not repaid. This means that the shareholders increase the proportion of the club they own if the club isn't in a position to repay, but we're no longer paying six figures to banks for interest every year.

SL mentioned that that debt had fallen further by £585k since the end of the financial year 06 as a result of investment in ordinary shares from Ernie Arathoon and Keith Dawe.

None of these figures include Dave Cotterill's transfer fee.

It's difficult to say whether we're in the black. Cashflow wise we were in the black in the summer, because of the season ticket money coming in and we were much further into the black whenever we got the money from Wigan. We have to pay wages over the season though.

However it's what we see at the end of the FY that's important.

Assuming that we aren't promoted and don't beat Boro but do beat the gas... here's my guess at what that might be.

We'll make a footballing revenue of ~£4m increased by the good cup runs and slightly improved ticket sales back to the level it was in 2002. Costs will rise a bit due to increased wages mainly as we've added to the squad. We'll make a profit from transfers of £1.5m or so. We spent some of the Cotterill money and some was based on contingent clauses. We'll have received some from Reading for promotion clauses tied to Lita and Golbourne. We'll make slightly more revenue from off the field activities because of the rugby. All of this combined might well mean we are just about within spitting distance of breaking even for the year and if that is correct then the new investment SteveL mentioned should mean our debt stands then at around £1.5-£1.8m.

It's certainly the healthiest we've been for a long while, but there are one or two things to be concerned about IMO.

Firstly the accounts for FY 05/06 haven't to my knowledge been made available. I don't believe Ltd. companies are required to do anything other than file returns (which aren't accounts and have no detail), but they published the 04/05 accounts and don't seem to want to publish these ones - at least they're not available from Companies House. That worries me a little.

Secondly, we're still spending over £4m or £80k a week on wages. That's too much, surely? Where is that all going?

Thirdly, the separation of club and stadium still hasn't been well explained.

Finally and perhaps most important... Unless I'm miles off base and the club have made real strides on this area, only the Cotterill sale will stop us making a significant loss. It's all very well clearing debt, but you have to stop racking it up in the first place.

[CodeRed]

OK I watched the AGM presentation again tonight out of interest so here's what I think I've gleaned from both that and the previous year's accounts.

Accounts for the financial year ending May 05 show we made a loss £1.97m. Revenue purely from football was £3.367m. Other revenue was £2.778m. Costs were £7.969m of which wages were £4.202m. Debt at the end of FY 05 was £5.104m. Those accounts didn't include the sale of Lita and a couple of others that happened in the summer, that was accounted in the next FY. They also didn't include the cost of the 7 signings we made that summer including Stewart.

Last financial year ending in May 06 we made a loss of £1.176m. Those accounts included profit from transfers of £1.744m. Revenue from football was £3.29m. Other revenue was £3.205m. Costs were £9.154m, of which wages were £4.170m. Debt was at £2.018m at the end of the FY 06. It was mentioned that the increased costs were partly due to reinvestment in the squad but also significantly due to the cost of setting up two big gigs in the summer which helped generate the increased other revenue.

Clearly our debt should have been higher because we lost more money... however a total of £4.158m was invested in "A Ordinary shares" and loan stock by SteveL, Keith Dawe and the Gooch family which in several years become ordinary shares if not repaid. This means that the shareholders increase the proportion of the club they own if the club isn't in a position to repay, but we're no longer paying six figures to banks for interest every year.

SL mentioned that that debt had fallen further by £585k since the end of the financial year 06 as a result of investment in ordinary shares from Ernie Arathoon and Keith Dawe.

None of these figures include Dave Cotterill's transfer fee.

It's difficult to say whether we're in the black. Cashflow wise we were in the black in the summer, because of the season ticket money coming in and we were much further into the black whenever we got the money from Wigan. We have to pay wages over the season though.

However it's what we see at the end of the FY that's important.

Assuming that we aren't promoted and don't beat Boro but do beat the gas... here's my guess at what that might be.

We'll make a footballing revenue of ~£4m increased by the good cup runs and slightly improved ticket sales back to the level it was in 2002. Costs will rise a bit due to increased wages mainly as we've added to the squad. We'll make a profit from transfers of £1.5m or so. We spent some of the Cotterill money and some was based on contingent clauses. We'll have received some from Reading for promotion clauses tied to Lita and Golbourne. We'll make slightly more revenue from off the field activities because of the rugby. All of this combined might well mean we are just about within spitting distance of breaking even for the year and if that is correct then the new investment SteveL mentioned should mean our debt stands then at around £1.5-£1.8m.

It's certainly the healthiest we've been for a long while, but there are one or two things to be concerned about IMO.

Firstly the accounts for FY 05/06 haven't to my knowledge been made available. I don't believe Ltd. companies are required to do anything other than file returns (which aren't accounts and have no detail), but they published the 04/05 accounts and don't seem to want to publish these ones - at least they're not available from Companies House. That worries me a little.

Secondly, we're still spending over £4m or £80k a week on wages. That's too much, surely? Where is that all going?

Thirdly, the separation of club and stadium still hasn't been well explained.

Finally and perhaps most important... Unless I'm miles off base and the club have made real strides on this area, only the Cotterill sale will stop us making a significant loss. It's all very well clearing debt, but you have to stop racking it up in the first place.

A really good summary, thanks, Nibor

Sadly I don't see a lot changing, promotion would bring increased crowds - especially away support which could help get around 18000 some games - average maybe 17000, a 5K increase which would bring around £2M. (based on £20 per person, prices will increase above that IMO but allow also for concessions). Costs for policing ,stewarding,... would increase plus of course the playing wage bill will increase for existing players plus new signings ....wages and fees .............I can see all that £2M and more being swallowed up.

SL can't keep converting loans to shares..we will have to start matching expenditure to income.

Regarding the current £4M wage bill, is this split anywhere into football and non-football staff?

I believe we have a large admin staff...Stadium Managers, Bar Managers, IT Managers, Sales Managers, Hospitality Managers etc etc

CodeRed

[Nibor]

Regarding the current £4M wage bill, is this split anywhere into football and non-football staff?

I believe we have a large admin staff...Stadium Managers, Bar Managers, IT Managers, Sales Managers, Hospitality Managers etc etc

Hmm..

I got the figure for 05 from the accounts for the Football club, not the holding company. But in those accounts for that year the stadium company isn't separate. I think that means that the wage bill includes everyone the club employed at that point. The figure for the FY 06 came from the presentation and was shown next to the 05 one so I'd assume it covers the same.

From what I recall the club has around 40-45 football employees and 30ish non football. Bear in mind that much of the matchday staff aren't BCFC employees (Lindley, some of the stewards and turnstile operators may be agency?) so won't show on our wage bill.

[Eddie Hitler]

Firstly the accounts for FY 05/06 haven't to my knowledge been made available. I don't believe Ltd. companies are required to do anything other than file returns (which aren't accounts and have no detail), but they published the 04/05 accounts and don't seem to want to publish these ones - at least they're not available from Companies House. That worries me a little.

The club are actually very good at filing the accounts, unlike some dodgy clubs who go well over the filing deadlines. The year end is 31 May and they've been published a few months later ever since I've held shares. The 31 May 06 accounts were published 6 October 2006. Part of the AGM is to approve the accounts so if the club is holding the AGM it's (usually) publishing the accounts.

The real aim for a football club is to make an operating profit, which is what Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal do, rather than continually make an opertaing loss and try to cover it by player sales. To achieve this Colin Sexstone was brought in to boost off-the-field income and he has doen this brilliantly so our sales are now evenly split £3.3m - football £3.2m - stadium.

Our operating loss for 05/06 was £2.5m (£2.65m shown but part of this writing back a paper valuation so it's not a real item) if we can get this down to £1m then regular profits (after player sales) are possible. To do this we need to be getting regular full houses, which was Gary Johnson's stated aim when he came in.

[Nibor]

The club are actually very good at filing the accounts, unlike some dodgy clubs who go well over the filing deadlines. The year end is 31 May and they've been published a few months later ever since I've held shares. The 31 May 06 accounts were published 6 October 2006. Part of the AGM is to approve the accounts so if the club is holding the AGM it's (usually) publishing the accounts.

I'm not a shareholder so I'm going by what is available from companies house for online download and they're not on there yet. I must point out I don't know why that is it just seems strange that they're not. The 04/05 ones were well before Feb 06.

The real aim for a football club is to make an operating profit, which is what Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal do, rather than continually make an opertaing loss and try to cover it by player sales. To achieve this Colin Sexstone was brought in to boost off-the-field income and he has doen this brilliantly so our sales are now evenly split £3.3m - football £3.2m - stadium.

I agree, our off the field revenue has gone up a great deal, nearly doubled since he's been here I think. The flip side of this is, if the stadium is now no longer a burden to the football club, why was it recently separated with that given as a reason?

Our operating loss for 05/06 was £2.5m (£2.65m shown but part of this writing back a paper valuation so it's not a real item) if we can get this down to £1m then regular profits (after player sales) are possible. To do this we need to be getting regular full houses, which was Gary Johnson's stated aim when he came in.

I think we'll be within spitting distance of breakeven after including transfer business for this FY but that is a real guess.

The scary bit is the amount of extra attendance we'd need in order to run without an operating loss. Even if we get promoted, because the wage bill will increase it will still be a very hard job.

[pdgifford64]

Very interesting post and great summary from Nibor - thanks.

Whatever the results from the latest accounts will be its clear the board are doing a pretty good job of trying to clear the debts at the same time as keeping the Clubs ambitions alive. I don`t envy them the task and the inevitable criticism that heads their way.

I for one will continue to do my bit ( ST ) and i`m sure SL and the board will continue to do theirs.

PDG

[SE23Red]

I agree, our off the field revenue has gone up a great deal, nearly doubled since he's been here I think. The flip side of this is, if the stadium is now no longer a burden to the football club, why was it recently separated with that given as a reason?

I thought the reason given was the other way round - that the loss making football club was a burden of the stadium company! It is still an extreme way of dealing with the problem though.

[Eddie Hitler]

I'm not a shareholder so I'm going by what is available from companies house for online download and they're not on there yet. I must point out I don't know why that is it just seems strange that they're not. The 04/05 ones were well before Feb 06.

Companies house is run by the civil service after all!

I agree, our off the field revenue has gone up a great deal, nearly doubled since he's been here I think. The flip side of this is, if the stadium is now no longer a burden to the football club, why was it recently separated with that given as a reason?

I don't understand the reasoning they're giving. It does make some sense to split as Reading did because if the footballing side goes belly-up you have the ability to start a new one, also if you get really skint you can sell-and-leaseback the stadium but if you lose it you keep the football club..

I think we'll be within spitting distance of breakeven after including transfer business for this FY but that is a real guess.

The scary bit is the amount of extra attendance we'd need in order to run without an operating loss. Even if we get promoted, because the wage bill will increase it will still be a very hard job.

Unless we get in the premiership! The sums there are so astronomical these days that unless you spend recklessly you make a fortune out of just one season up there. Watford seem to be sensibly taking teh money and when Preston nearly went up a few years back they said they wouldn't spend anything if they went up but would just take the money to clear their debt and buy a new training ground.

[Loderingo]

OK I watched the AGM presentation again tonight out of interest so here's what I think I've gleaned from both that and the previous year's accounts.

Accounts for the financial year ending May 05 show we made a loss £1.97m. Revenue purely from football was £3.367m. Other revenue was £2.778m. Costs were £7.969m of which wages were £4.202m. Debt at the end of FY 05 was £5.104m. Those accounts didn't include the sale of Lita and a couple of others that happened in the summer, that was accounted in the next FY. They also didn't include the cost of the 7 signings we made that summer including Stewart.

Last financial year ending in May 06 we made a loss of £1.176m. Those accounts included profit from transfers of £1.744m. Revenue from football was £3.29m. Other revenue was £3.205m. Costs were £9.154m, of which wages were £4.170m. Debt was at £2.018m at the end of the FY 06. It was mentioned that the increased costs were partly due to reinvestment in the squad but also significantly due to the cost of setting up two big gigs in the summer which helped generate the increased other revenue.

Clearly our debt should have been higher because we lost more money... however a total of £4.158m was invested in "A Ordinary shares" and loan stock by SteveL, Keith Dawe and the Gooch family which in several years become ordinary shares if not repaid. This means that the shareholders increase the proportion of the club they own if the club isn't in a position to repay, but we're no longer paying six figures to banks for interest every year.

SL mentioned that that debt had fallen further by £585k since the end of the financial year 06 as a result of investment in ordinary shares from Ernie Arathoon and Keith Dawe.

None of these figures include Dave Cotterill's transfer fee.

It's difficult to say whether we're in the black. Cashflow wise we were in the black in the summer, because of the season ticket money coming in and we were much further into the black whenever we got the money from Wigan. We have to pay wages over the season though.

However it's what we see at the end of the FY that's important.

Assuming that we aren't promoted and don't beat Boro but do beat the gas... here's my guess at what that might be.

We'll make a footballing revenue of ~£4m increased by the good cup runs and slightly improved ticket sales back to the level it was in 2002. Costs will rise a bit due to increased wages mainly as we've added to the squad. We'll make a profit from transfers of £1.5m or so. We spent some of the Cotterill money and some was based on contingent clauses. We'll have received some from Reading for promotion clauses tied to Lita and Golbourne. We'll make slightly more revenue from off the field activities because of the rugby. All of this combined might well mean we are just about within spitting distance of breaking even for the year and if that is correct then the new investment SteveL mentioned should mean our debt stands then at around £1.5-£1.8m.

It's certainly the healthiest we've been for a long while, but there are one or two things to be concerned about IMO.

Firstly the accounts for FY 05/06 haven't to my knowledge been made available. I don't believe Ltd. companies are required to do anything other than file returns (which aren't accounts and have no detail), but they published the 04/05 accounts and don't seem to want to publish these ones - at least they're not available from Companies House. That worries me a little.

Secondly, we're still spending over £4m or £80k a week on wages. That's too much, surely? Where is that all going?

Thirdly, the separation of club and stadium still hasn't been well explained.

Finally and perhaps most important... Unless I'm miles off base and the club have made real strides on this area, only the Cotterill sale will stop us making a significant loss. It's all very well clearing debt, but you have to stop racking it up in the first place.

Hmm thaks Nibor. Don't forget the significant cost of the academy. Is it 800K per annum? We are always going to have to rely on some player sales to fund it I think (Cotterill's sale will pay for the next 2.5 years)

[Nibor]

Hmm thaks Nibor. Don't forget the significant cost of the academy. Is it 800K per annum? We are always going to have to rely on some player sales to fund it I think (Cotterill's sale will pay for the next 2.5 years)

Significant cost of the academy?

Net of grants and sponsorship it barely costs us six figures. Cotterill's fee means that it's well into the black since it's inception and for the next few years. Don't believe Ashtonyate's campaign of misinformation.

[Red to the world]

Significant cost of the academy?

Net of grants and sponsorship it barely costs us six figures. Cotterill's fee means that it's well into the black since it's inception and for the next few years. Don't believe Ashtonyate's campaign of misinformation.

You are totally correct re the cost of the academy and long may it continue !

[Bristol Boy]

Hmm thaks Nibor. Don't forget the significant cost of the academy. Is it 800K per annum? We are always going to have to rely on some player sales to fund it I think (Cotterill's sale will pay for the next 2.5 years)

Closer to £160k

[scumbag]

Closer to £160k

is that figure pre-st george move/uwe sponsorship?

[SimplyRed]

What I'd like to know is why we are continually making losses every year?

Other clubs seem to be able to be successful on a shoestring and half our gates - and we don't exactly have the cheapest ticketing tariff in the league.

I remain convinced that the club has been mis-managed since Lansdown took over. Why is it that Lansdown can build a multi-million empire in Hargreaves Lansdown, yet he can't turn a profit in a poxy div3 football club? It beggars belief.

I think the club has champagne taste and lemonade money and we're simply trying to live beyond our means.