it absolutely ain't working

[where's the joy]

that was a really poor performance in Birmingham today. we are already in trouble and have got to change tactics and formation just to steady the ship. confidence can evaporate so quickly and you could see it leaving our players in the 10th minute. we couldn't even put a foot in where needed and managed to make a very ordinary donaldson look world class.

sort it out Steve or all that wonderful work last season will count for nothing

[formerly known as ivan]

First game with the new guys at the back. Give them a few games to settle in

[AshtonGreat]

First game with the new guys at the back. Give them a few games to settle in

Yeah that was meant to be the point of pre-season. Massive cock-up from Burt

[Shtanley]

Personally I think we should be sticking with 352. Suits the players we have and I don't want this pressure on Cotts to result in a boring 442 with long ball. We aren't as good as people think. Changing the formation wouldn't change the results IMO

[HoldenBall]

Personally I think we should be sticking with 352. Suits the players we have and I don't want this pressure on Cotts to result in a boring 442 with long ball. We aren't as good as people think. Changing the formation wouldn't change the results IMO

Changing the formation, being "boring" and picking up points. or stick with our formation be open and expansive and keep losing points? We've bought in defenders, we're still conceding freely what else can we do?

[Between heaven and hell]

Not sure playing Ayling on the right of a five was a good idea to be honest, did he have to be moved just to accommodate a loan signing?

Also we lost possession of the ball numerous times today all over the park which obviously brings problems.

Sort it out Cotterill this is the Championship not league one

[petehinton]

You simply cannot play wing backs in this intense, fast and unforgiving league. The gulf between L1 & the champ is huge.  There is a reason we've shipped an average of 2+ a game. 

[formerly known as ivan]

Yeah that was meant to be the point of pre-season. Massive cock-up from Burt

maybe they weren't available earlier in the summer?

[CheddarReds]

Birmingham exposed our wingbacks today on the break, like other teams have done previously this season. This will keep happening. We got away with it in L1 with the faster, strongest, best players against teams who didn't have enough quality to expose us. But, in this division the opposition are just as good if not better and we're getting caught in the areas where the full backs would be but wing backs aren't. All day Birminghams threats came from the flanks while Bryan and or Ayling where up the field having attacked.

For me, a change of shape is needed. Yes, some of the football we can play is exciting and fluid but we are far too open. Change it to a back four and stop the goals coming. I think the players we have are good enough but the system isn't working.

Just my thoughts on it anyway!

[BobBobSuperBob]

You simply cannot play wing backs in this intense, fast and unforgiving league. The gulf between L1 & the champ is huge.  There is a reason we've shipped an average of 2+ a game. 

Tend to agree with you but SC has already made t clear he has no plans to change

doesnt help with the gung ho  way we use the wing backs

The 3-5-2 system would be ok at this level IF you have 3 well drilled good centre halves, with pace , and two outstanding wing backs

we don't and as importantly neither do we have the midfield personnel to protect 

[Frenchay Red]

Despite not being at our best we had periods where we were the better team. At 2-1 down I thought we could get an equalizer. Pack was unlucky to hit the post from a free-kick, then they had a very dodgy pen. We then get back to 3-2 in the second half, again looking as though we could level and concede yet again from a corner. Their manager said on the local radio that they pushed up their wide men on to our wing-backs and got at Moore and Baker as he knew they were short of match sharpness. I was chatting to some of their fans after, they though Freeman rang the show, as they put it, and said with the size of our defence we really should be doing better at set pieces. Can't argue with that!

[Between heaven and hell]

Birmingham exposed our wingbacks today on the break, like other teams have done previously this season. This will keep happening. We got away with it in L1 with the faster, strongest, best players against teams who didn't have enough quality to expose us. But, in this division the opposition are just as good if not better and we're getting caught in the areas where the full backs would be but wing backs aren't. All day Birminghams threats came from the flanks while Bryan and or Ayling where up the field having attacked.

For me, a change of shape is needed. Yes, some of the football we can play is exciting and fluid but we are far too open. Change it to a back four and stop the goals coming. I think the players we have are good enough but the system isn't working.

Just my thoughts on it anyway!

Hit the nail on the head there mate,  to open definitely need for a change

[joe jordans teeth]

Personally I think we should be sticking with 352. Suits the players we have and I don't want this pressure on Cotts to result in a boring 442 with long ball. We aren't as good as people think. Changing the formation wouldn't change the results IMO

think you only have to look at the Scouse sticking with 352,good teams will work you out,if boring 442 means a few 1 nils I would take that

[054123]

You simply cannot play wing backs in this intense, fast and unforgiving league. The gulf between L1 & the champ is huge.  There is a reason we've shipped an average of 2+ a game. 

I've been saying this since March.

I'm amazed at how badly we have prepared for this season and how naive a club we have been. 

Its been apparent since our loss to Preston last season that we have no plan b. We were a truly unrivaled one trick of a pony last season and boy what a wonderful trick it was too enjoy. At not one point though did the club or its management give any indication that they were ready to compete at this level.

We just need to stay up this year and hopefully start to move forward next season.

 

[ashton_fan]

You need to have more than one way of playing at this level. Not saying we should give up 3-5-2 completely but if the opposition know for certain the way you are going to play then they can set themselves up accordingly. When GJ was manager we often used to catch other teams out in the first half by playing a different formation to what we'd done in the previous games. It was OK in L1 but the coaches as well as the players are more clued up at this level.

[Super]

Not sure tactics are to blame when you can't defend a bloody set piece. Players need to take some ******* responsibility. Pathetic.

[petehinton]

Not sure tactics are to blame when you can't defend a bloody set piece. Players need to take some ******* responsibility. Pathetic.

I was third row from the front in the corner today and was amazed we didn't concede from nearly every corner we defended. We set up in a really weird zonal, 2 in the front 1 on the penalty spot, 2 at the back with the rest of the players just roaming the rest of the area. 

Looking at near enough every goal today, they're avoidable. 2 of them a result of bad communication, 1 of them a penalty that shouldn't have happened, and 1 a free header from a corner (again). Frustrating. 

[Guest]

Was saying it before we even kicked a ball this season, we got to play 4 at the back. Last seasons success has no relevance to how this season was going to be. I could see last season that better teams will get through us in the championship. We have the players to play 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. Baker and flint as a pair would be a rock. Add to that moore and Bryan as full backs and putting ayling alongside Smith in the middle. That gives us a solid defensive shape, and then the likes of Freeman and kodjia can do their thing in the attacking 3rd. We have a quality squad of players, just short of 2 more and playing the wrong system.

 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Threads like this make me so cross. We're going to have some rough times this season, any non part time city fan will know that.

We play good football but make mistakes, it happens. Get over it.

I like the way we play, I don't want to resort to long ball. We don't have the players or the patience. 

Get behind our young, talented and determined team. For **** sake.

[Red Skin]

Threads like this make me so cross. We're going to have some rough times this season, any non part time city fan will know that.

We play good football but make mistakes, it happens. Get over it.

I like the way we play, I don't want to resort to long ball. We don't have the players or the patience. 

Get behind our young, talented and determined team. For **** sake.

Changing from wing backs doesn't mean we can't still be exciting.   Continuing with 3-5-2 when it isn't working at this level is madness.  

4-3-3 swapping to 4-5-1 when we haven't got the ball.  Gotta drop Wilbs with Kodjia lone striker (as he was for Angers) and get Bobby Reid just behind him.  We gotta hit teams with pace on the break and, sadly, Wilbs ain't up to it.

 

[Pezo]

The way we play isn't the problem IMO. We are creating opportunities but a (pretty much) completely new back line was never going to gain an understanding that quick. We need to give this at least 6 games and give lads a chance to work on it.

[Super]

I was third row from the front in the corner today and was amazed we didn't concede from nearly every corner we defended. We set up in a really weird zonal, 2 in the front 1 on the penalty spot, 2 at the back with the rest of the players just roaming the rest of the area. 

Looking at near enough every goal today, they're avoidable. 2 of them a result of bad communication, 1 of them a penalty that shouldn't have happened, and 1 a free header from a corner (again). Frustrating. 

absolutely spot on, nobody is organising from set pieces and we certainly don't lack any height,just so poor. If it doesn't get sorted out no doubt we will be in a relegation battle.

[Olé]

If we're going to persist with 352 and I'd echo the comments about how much we're being exposed at the back, then we need to be faultless with our passing and possession. We are playing passing football but 1 in 7 touches or passes are loose and giving away the ball.

That's the difference. We're making too many mistakes throughout the pitch and getting punished for them. The inexcusable bit is a that some of them are over elaboration - we are trying to be cute. Our first goal was beautiful but you're not going to pull that off every time.

We weren't direct enough to the wing backs to justify playing them and taking the resultant risk at the back. If we're playing 352 we have to make sure the wing backs are getting outside and dictating the shape of the game, we instead were trying to carve our way through the middle with neat interplay and losing the ball too often, if that was the plan we may as well have put four or more across the back, wing backs were pointless.

The frequency of mistakes is the story with Wilbraham too. Contrary to the people saying he can't play at this level any longer, he looks fit enough and strong enough, what is different is all those clever touches and flick ons are going to the opposition when last season they were carving open looser defences.

The only way we're going to get through this is keep it simple and prioritise possession and ball security over results even if that means a few 0-0s. We have to get our confidence back that we can control possession and then build from there. And we obviously need a central defence that has played more than one game together (or alternatively line them up like West Midlands Police outside the away end at full time today and get in the way of everything).

Does anyone know what sparked that set to between Kodjia and the Birmingham player. They both looked absolutely incensed. I like Kodjia, he is utterly impatient with opponents, and he clearly wants to win. I don't think he's even hit full confidence yet (snatched turn and shot first half for instance), if we can give him the delivery and get him on a run he could be a monster.

[Red-Robbo]

Can only echo the above.

Our 35-year-old striker has scored one goal in roughly nine hours of play and that, I'm afraid, is not good enough. 

[WithywoodRed]

Agree with the points on corners. It really ain't hard. Bollocks to all this zonal rubbish, front post back post mark up goal side. Soon as the ball leaves the corner takers boot you make the attackers uncomfortable without grabbing them. Really irritates me.

[Guest Alf]

I think the Middlesbrough result showed it can work, although it can't as a one size fits all solution!

[Red Skin]

Ole, agree with most of your comments except re' Wilbs.  He stil puts in a great shift but his touch has deserted him and he just doesn't seem to be properly sharp in terms of ability or speed of thought when on the ball.  Rather than knowing what he need to do next when he does receive it, you can almost hear him thinking 'Right, what do I do with it now?' It slows everything down.

He is still obviously getting a understanding with Kodjia, but the options to play to the wing backs or Freeman is still there so he shouldn't be this out of sorts.  Maybe Kodjia and him are making too similar runs or trying to occupy the same space (they could both scored the first)?  

Kodjia as lone striker with either Freeman or Reid running beyond him/playing him in  would be worth exploring for me.  With an extra man in midfield there would be more success playing through the middle and both Reid and Freeman excel at playing that clever pass through.  Failing that I think the movement of Agard and Kodjia both running off the shoulder of the last man would lethal.

Cotts needs to change something.

[AshtonGreat]

maybe they weren't available earlier in the summer?

Maybe not, but others would've been

[AshtonGreat]

absolutely spot on, nobody is organising from set pieces and we certainly don't lack any height,just so poor. If it doesn't get sorted out no doubt we will be in a relegation battle.

Flint needs to step up to the plate here. It's his responsibility to organise the defence

[Chappers]

Just look at the huge gaps that regularly appear in our defence and you can see what is wrong. The wide players draw out the CB's creating heaps of space in the danger zone. Quite why anyone can pretend that all is well is beyond me, the defence is leaking badly, and we are not going to do a lot if you need to score 2 or 3 goals a game just to get a point. Forget last season, look at the present.

[redapple]

Maybe SC needs to compromise a bit . Perhaps only ONE Wing Back ( Bryan) , and one conventional Full Back ( Little/Ayling). Shame to revert totally to 4-4-2 , I enjoy our football , never want to go back to the dross of SOD , but realise we need to get some points . 

[ChippenhamRed]

Personally I'm a big fan of 4-2-3-1. It gives you defensive solidity, protection from two midfielders, and gives more of a free licence to the front four. I believe we have the personnel to play it, except that I would want Bryan playing on the left of the three and we don't have a specialist left back.

Seems like the exposure of our wing backs is becoming a common theme and therefore there is a growing case for moving away from 3-5-2 in this division.

[Kibs]

This is like deja vu.....

 I remember a stage early last season where we were all having exactly the same conversations, after shipping 3 against Fleetwood, 2 against Bradford, Barnsley, Chesterfield and MK Dons. 

I find it hard to accept that the goals we are conceding are down to the formation we are playing. Didn't we move to this formation in the first place to provide some defensive stability?

We've let in 4 against Brentford after going down to 10 early on, the keeper having a bit of a mare and Cotterill choosing not to adjust anything after the red card. Big mistake IMO. 

2 Against Leeds, 1 a penalty from our own corner after a shocker from Fredericks and Hamer. 2 Against Burnley both corners and 2 of the 4 yesterday were set pieces (1 pen & 1 Corner)

The formation is flexible anyway, we just need to be lest gung-ho with it and during certain periods, it needs to become more a 5-3-2.

 

[Shtanley]

think you only have to look at the Scouse sticking with 352,good teams will work you out,if boring 442 means a few 1 nils I would take that

McInnes and SOD both went with 442 and look how poor they were in the championship. I think we are too heavily invested in this formation to change it. Players like Bryan, Reid, Freeman, Ayling would not be near as useful in a 442 as they are perfectly suited to their respective positions in the 3-5-2. Changing a system we've been working with for 18 months and have invested for with all our signings, a system which our youth teams now all play with and saw us storm to our first ever league title would stink of desperation. 6 games in no one should have an overriding feeling of desperation, give it till 10 games. Even then I would be thinking more about changing the line-up as opposed to the formation. You can be defensively solid with a 3-5-2 you just make the wing backs sit for most of the game. If Cotts wanted to be defensive we can be, we hung on for 60 odd minutes away to the promotion favourites Boro. The fact is that the best thing about this team is the fact we can score a lot of goals, we can't defend as near a good as we can attack, thats why we have to try to win games, not just avoid losses. 3-5-2 until the time comes when we are desperate, right now we are not there by any means.

[marshy]

Never been a fan of wing backs, much too easily exposed down the flanks. The warning signs were there from the very first game of last season, Sheff U away, when we could have shipped goals before half-time .Fortunately we were much too good for the division throughout the team. So few teams play this way, just hoping Steve isn't too stubborn to change. For anyone interested the book 'Flat Back Four' by Andy Gray is an excellent read. Used copies available on Amazon for £0.01 +postage.

[brizzlelou]

Changing from wing backs doesn't mean we can't still be exciting.   Continuing with 3-5-2 when it isn't working at this level is madness.  

4-3-3 swapping to 4-5-1 when we haven't got the ball.  Gotta drop Wilbs with Kodjia lone striker (as he was for Angers) and get Bobby Reid just behind him.  We gotta hit teams with pace on the break and, sadly, Wilbs ain't up to it.

 

this to me sounds perfect

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Sc has stated quite clearly that his way is 3-5-2 and although it might be painful in the short term - he sees it as the answer long term.

Whilst it's interesting to debate other options and formations on here there is zero chance of SC doing an about turn and trying a different formation any time soon. 

Cotts is a very single minded and determined. If he says he's going to do something- you can be pretty damn sure he will whether we like it or not. In this respect, we have to take the rough with the smooth.

[JoeAman08]

I was always worried about the step up. We were quite average against the top 5 of league one last season and I was berated for saying it. Just because we smashed that league didn't mean we would just continue it. The signs were there last season but we ignored them because of the success against poor sides. We were countered at home by Sheffield United, made poor decisions with the ball at home to MK Dons which we were fortunate to get the 3 points, Preston who was most like competition we face now held us to 1 point from 6. We dominated the poorer teams which we should have but you could look back and see it. 

 

Now it isn't all doom and gloom from me. We honestly do play the better football than most teams and it's the exciting football that will attract recruits but only if the results start coming. The excuses are running out. It is a busy week and if we don't get some points against Preston and Reading(won't be easy on either front) it's going to start getting dodgy. The lads need to settle in and hold themselves a bit more accountable and just defend better. Letting too many crosses get in and not being physical enough on set pieces. These are very fixable and the manager can only tell them. They need to start executing. If we do, going forward won't be a problem and we should comfortably stay in this division. 

[Red Skin]

He may have a preference but he has got to adapt or die (not literally!)  Single-mindedness is not to far from bloody-mindedness for me.  You have to be prepared to pick the right tactics and formation to win.  I think he will change things, but he needs to crack on with it.

[Guest I am the mole]

Agree with the points on corners. It really ain't hard. Bollocks to all this zonal rubbish, front post back post mark up goal side. Soon as the ball leaves the corner takers boot you make the attackers uncomfortable without grabbing them. Really irritates me.

nothing wrong with zonal if played right and you got the players with intelligence to play it!! The famous arsenal defence Adams, bould, meows, Dixon and winter burn played zonal and it worked! 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

He may have a preference but he has got to adapt or die (not literally!)  Single-mindedness is not to far from bloody-mindedness for me.  You have to be prepared to pick the right tactics and formation to win.  I think he will change things, but he needs to crack on with it.

I think he won't change the set up but may change the results.

I think , as you say, he is bloody minded and ultimately his destiny is in his own hands. 

I also believe we owe him some patience and it's not yet time to start saying 3-5-2 is a failed experiment at this level. But like many others on here, I'm finding this new season a wee bit uncomfortable at the moment.

[Guest Tauntonian]

wilbs and pack are just not up to it at this level. ayling needs to play cdm. would rather have agard playing instead of wilbs aswell.

[InCider]

nothing wrong with zonal if played right and you got the players with intelligence to play it!! The famous arsenal defence Adams, bould, meows, Dixon and winter burn played zonal and it worked! 

 

Worked purrfectly!

[joe jordans teeth]

McInnes and SOD both went with 442 and look how poor they were in the championship. I think we are too heavily invested in this formation to change it. Players like Bryan, Reid, Freeman, Ayling would not be near as useful in a 442 as they are perfectly suited to their respective positions in the 3-5-2. Changing a system we've been working with for 18 months and have invested for with all our signings, a system which our youth teams now all play with and saw us storm to our first ever league title would stink of desperation. 6 games in no one should have an overriding feeling of desperation, give it till 10 games. Even then I would be thinking more about changing the line-up as opposed to the formation. You can be defensively solid with a 3-5-2 you just make the wing backs sit for most of the game. If Cotts wanted to be defensive we can be, we hung on for 60 odd minutes away to the promotion favourites Boro. The fact is that the best thing about this team is the fact we can score a lot of goals, we can't defend as near a good as we can attack, thats why we have to try to win games, not just avoid losses. 3-5-2 until the time comes when we are desperate, right now we are not there by any means.

so if 352 doesn't work we are up the creek without a paddle with the players we have is what your saying,I would really hope that our youth system are not just playing that way and no other,being defensively sound doesn't mean you are not trying to lose games rather than win

[Shtanley]

so if 352 doesn't work we are up the creek without a paddle with the players we have is what your saying,I would really hope that our youth system are not just playing that way and no other,being defensively sound doesn't mean you are not trying to lose games rather than win

I'm not saying creek without a paddle but IMO we would definitely see less exciting football with a change and I don't think we'd win many more games. Derby used 352 last year and they did okay. 

[Gert Mare]

I think we should just pile everyone forward Steve McClaren style. Worked when Gary Johnson applied it too. We nearly went up FFS!

[pnefcok]

Have to say I'm surprised that you continued to concede goals this weekend. Moore, Flint and Baker seems a pretty good back 3 on paper.

[spudski]

Have to say I'm surprised that you continued to concede goals this weekend. Moore, Flint and Baker seems a pretty good back 3 on paper.

It seems that with a 352 formation, that a total understanding between GK, Back 3 and wing backs is more imperative than any other formation.

As there is a rigidity, understanding and shape needed to be kept...If you don't do it to the letter, then teams can exploit.

The Brum manager mentioned it in his plans. To exploit both Moore and Baker as they had lack of time with the squad and match practice. He made his players push up on them, and wait for them to make mistakes.

A returning keeper, two new CB's and a defender playing a new role at Wing back, was always going to be a gamble imho...it obviously backfired as our defence seemed like it had never played together before.

Hopefully they will gel quicker rather than later. Did you say your lot have been playing 352 on another thread? Cunningham playing wing back?

[pnefcok]

It seems that with a 352 formation, that a total understanding between GK, Back 3 and wing backs is more imperative than any other formation.

As there is a rigidity, understanding and shape needed to be kept...If you don't do it to the letter, then teams can exploit.

The Brum manager mentioned it in his plans. To exploit both Moore and Baker as they had lack of time with the squad and match practice. He made his players push up on them, and wait for them to make mistakes.

A returning keeper, two new CB's and a defender playing a new role at Wing back, was always going to be a gamble imho...it obviously backfired as our defence seemed like it had never played together before.

Hopefully they will gel quicker rather than later. Did you say your lot have been playing 352 on another thread? Cunningham playing wing back?

Yes we have, and yes he has.

He's been very solid defensively, marked Tom Ince out of the game at the weekend, but the attacking side of that role isn't really for him. I prefer him as an out and out left back.

Our problem is our wing backs aren't often very attacking, so it's basically a 5 at the back. On saturday, our only 3 attacking players on the pitch were Johnson(CAM) and the strikers Keane and Garner. The rest were 5 defenders and 2 defensive, sitting midfielders plus the GK. Grayson has come under some criticism for this negative selection at home.

Expect a possible change in formation tonight, and expect at least 1, maybe both of Eoin Doyle and Stevie May to start up top with Garner.