Jump to content
IGNORED

If we cannot compete in the Championship...


Jack Dawe

Recommended Posts

...on 15,000 crowds, what chance would these three have:

Burton Albion, average crowd 2014/15 - 3,237

Gillingham, average crowd 2014/15 - 5,964

Walsall, average crowd 2014/15 - 4,392

Not sure what their crowds are this season, but I doubt they are double their figures for last season.

What chance have they got? Are they simply competing for the right to be relegated next season? And just how are they riding high in L1 on such limited resources??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although there is some truth in what Cotts & Steve Lansdown say about being unable to compete, other teams prove it can be done. Brentford is a small club with small gates, but got close to the playoffs last season. Bournemouth did even better. There are other teams in the Championship with little money who, although they don't look like they will be promoted, don't look like they will be relegated either.

That said, life might be too difficult for Burton, Walsall, Gillingham if they get promoted. This makes it essential that City survive this season, as next season there could be three really poor teams filling the relegation spots in the league. It could give City another season to consolidate and build a better team. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

...on 15,000 crowds, what chance would these three have:

Burton Albion, average crowd 2014/15 - 3,237

Gillingham, average crowd 2014/15 - 5,964

Walsall, average crowd 2014/15 - 4,392

Not sure what their crowds are this season, but I doubt they are double their figures for last season.

What chance have they got? Are they simply competing for the right to be relegated next season? And just how are they riding high in L1 on such limited resources??

Walsall have SOD they'll be fine...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

That said, life might be too difficult for Burton, Walsall, Gillingham if they get promoted. This makes it essential that City survive this season, as next season there could be three really poor teams filling the relegation spots in the league. It could give City another season to consolidate and build a better team. 

Now that's a very good point: the prize for struggling to finish 21st this season is a very comfortable 21st place next season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

Although there is some truth in what Cotts & Steve Lansdown say about being unable to compete, other teams prove it can be done. Brentford is a small club with small gates, but got close to the playoffs last season. Bournemouth did even better. There are other teams in the Championship with little money who, although they don't look like they will be promoted, don't look like they will be relegated either.

That said, life might be too difficult for Burton, Walsall, Gillingham if they get promoted. This makes it essential that City survive this season, as next season there could be three really poor teams filling the relegation spots in the league. It could give City another season to consolidate and build a better team. 

Thank you, Pongo!

My only quibble there, is Bournemouth have a billionaire backer who put the money up, but it must still have been a challenge for them to attract quality players (although it's a "nice place to live" I believe)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concern is if we can't compete now then how will we ever be able to compete at this level..?

SL has tried splashing the cash last time around and we were in the same position then, so you can appreciate his reluctance to write off another 20/30/40 million. 

Im not sure what is going to break the cycle. We can just be relying on a sudden surge into the Prem, without the investment to get there. 

Is the completed stadium really going to generate so much extra revenue that we are able to compete..? I can't see how. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gillingham's average this season - 6,096; their ground capacity 11,582; exec boxes 20.

Walsall's - 5,346; cap 11,300; 9 boxes

Burton's - 3,742; cap 6,900; they've got one box, or "suite," might be more, don't know.

 

Meanwhile,

Sheff Utd, average 20,000, Bradford 18k, Cov 12,9k.

So, to repeat an earlier question: how are Burt, Walsall and Gills even sitting on top of these 3, let alone going to compete in the Championship.

Or, put it another way: what are Burton Albion, Walsall and Gillingham doing that we are not doing, but could copy, or try, to be able to compete with better resourced and "more attractive" clubs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's be plain about it, we required a generous billionaire backer, a top 3 L1 budget and the summer recruitment transfer window of our lives to sit on top of L1 a year ago, having cherry picked some of the best L1 talent.

Burton are doing the same now, after a whopping 6 years in the Football League, on crowds of under 4,000 (they might have a wealthy backer, I don't know. I'm trying to understand)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The concern is if we can't compete now then how will we ever be able to compete at this level..?

SL has tried splashing the cash last time around and we were in the same position then, so you can appreciate his reluctance to write off another 20/30/40 million. 

Im not sure what is going to break the cycle. We can just be relying on a sudden surge into the Prem, without the investment to get there. 

Is the completed stadium really going to generate so much extra revenue that we are able to compete..? I can't see how. 

Is this the crux of it all, then? Is it a case of, SL "can't see how" either?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SL keeps saying that his aim is more than just survival in this league and wants to get to the Prem. If that's the case and he wants it anytime soon then we will need to compete with the top end of this league financially or just accept our limitations. We seem to have ambition but no strategy, at least not one that is communicated...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Is the completed stadium really going to generate so much extra revenue that we are able to compete..? I can't see how. 

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but as a starting point there is the hospitality boxes. I'm not sure how many there are but the cheapest starts @ £25k for 12, and I am told they have all been snapped up for next season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Bournemouth did alright with their tiny stadium. But I do think to say we aren't competing is a bit harsh. Only in the bottom 3 on GD. Bolton are a team that aren't competing. 

Cotts words, not mine. He's been saying it all season (we're talking money, resources mostly here, and how you use them, make the most of what you've got)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Cotts words, not mine. He's been saying it all season (we're talking money, resources mostly here, and how you use them, make the most of what you've got)

Ah okay sorry completely disregarded the financial transfer side. I think this season we won't compete rather than can't. Next season we will start to spend more and pay more wages as we won't be content with a bottom 6 finish. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Rule The Waves said:

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but as a starting point there is the hospitality boxes. I'm not sure how many there are but the cheapest starts @ £25k for 12, and I am told they have all been snapped up for next season.

I am with @bs3 on this one I cant see how we are supposedly gonna make loads of cash from the new stadium if for your example we have 12 boxes @ £25k a pop that still only makes £300k yes a lot of cash to me or you but in the football world = peanuts... That's also not including the running costs of staff\chefs etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Shtanley said:

Ah okay sorry completely disregarded the financial transfer side. I think this season we won't compete rather than can't. Next season we will start to spend more and pay more wages as we won't be content with a bottom 6 finish. 

No need to apologise! The, competing on the pitch bit has been well covered (352 or 4231, Marlon Pack, old man Wilbs etc), I'm after what smaller clubs do to out wit bigger clubs before a ball is kicked. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Gillingham's average this season - 6,096; their ground capacity 11,582; exec boxes 20.

Walsall's - 5,346; cap 11,300; 9 boxes

Burton's - 3,742; cap 6,900; they've got one box, or "suite," might be more, don't know.

 

Meanwhile,

Sheff Utd, average 20,000, Bradford 18k, Cov 12,9k.

So, to repeat an earlier question: how are Burt, Walsall and Gills even sitting on top of these 3, let alone going to compete in the Championship.

Or, put it another way: what are Burton Albion, Walsall and Gillingham doing that we are not doing, but could copy, or try, to be able to compete with better resourced and "more attractive" clubs?

Burton and Walsall have nice, quite central locations, with a lot of big clubs nearby to sweep up any cast offs that might fancy staying close to home. Gills, bit out on a limb geographically, but they have a very good, young manager who I'm sure is a positive when it comes to signing players. Not saying that's the only reason, but I would say that all three have cut their cloth and done well. Just like we did last season, so to answer 'what are they doing' - they are doing what we done 18 months ago. As for how to compete, we don't have to compete with these three this season, not sure what the point is there?

And for others saying that if we stay up this season it will be easier to stay up next season because it's only Burton, Walsall & Gillingham (possibly) coming up.....give your head a wobble. It could also be Cov, Sheff U and Wigan - would we be so patronising towards those three clubs? I'm sure plenty rubbed their hands it was 'only' City, MK & Preston that came up this season too

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Turbored said:

I am with @bs3 on this one I cant see how we are supposedly gonna make loads of cash from the new stadium if for your example we have 12 boxes @ £25k a pop that still only makes £300k yes a lot of cash to me or you but in the football world = peanuts... That's also not including the running costs of staff\chefs etc.

Agree, but that is just the starting point of the numerous ways in which these modern day stadiums generate additional revenues if properly managed.

 

(The last part of that sentence may be where we fall flat on our face)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Burton and Walsall have nice, quite central locations, with a lot of big clubs nearby to sweep up any cast offs that might fancy staying close to home. Gills, bit out on a limb geographically, but they have a very good, young manager who I'm sure is a positive when it comes to signing players. Not saying that's the only reason, but I would say that all three have cut their cloth and done well. Just like we did last season, so to answer 'what are they doing' - they are doing what we done 18 months ago. As for how to compete, we don't have to compete with these three this season, not sure what the point is there?

And for others saying that if we stay up this season it will be easier to stay up next season because it's only Burton, Walsall & Gillingham (possibly) coming up.....give your head a wobble. It could also be Cov, Sheff U and Wigan - would we be so patronising towards those three clubs? I'm sure plenty rubbed their hands it was 'only' City, MK & Preston that came up this season too

Burton and Walsall have big clubs close to them to sweep up any cast offs - positive; but consequently have low crowds because big clubs sweep up potential support. It's the other way round for us then.

So, being out-in-the-sticks might be a disadvantage, but it is not a crippling one. Norwich and Swansea have got round this challenge. How?

You say they have cut their cloth, but that is a bit vague, we need more detail! SL is trying this right now and we can't sign anyone

And the point about Burton, Walsall and Gills is: how do they punch above their weight in L1? If we could unlock answers to that, it might point us towards how we could do likewise in the Championship

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Jack Dawe said:

Burton and Walsall have big clubs close to them to sweep up any cast offs - positive; but consequently have low crowds because big clubs sweep up potential support. It's the other way round for us then.

So, being out-in-the-sticks might be a disadvantage, but it is not a crippling one. Norwich and Swansea have got round this challenge. How?

You say they have cut their cloth, but that is a bit vague, we need more detail! SL is trying this right now and we can't sign anyone

And the point about Burton, Walsall and Gills is: how do they punch above their weight in L1? If we could unlock answers to that, it might point us towards how we could do likewise in the Championship

But there are always clubs that punch their weight for a year or two, we certainly did after the GJ promotion

It's like last season, everyone moaned about the size of our budget. It doesn't matter what the size is, it's how you spend it. We hit the jackpot every time with the summer signings, Walsall have been a work in progress for a year or two now, Burton have had a couple of really good, young managers and Gills appear to have a belter in Edinburgh. Whilst I get your point, I wonder if in 5 years time we'll be asking the same question about these 3 clubs? By then it could be Cambridge, Morecombe and Barnet who are having a nice run. Doesn't mean any of them have found the secret of sustained success. Norwich and Swansea, Stoke & WBA before them, all have. It's them we need to copy, which you allude to above

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Calculus said:

SL keeps saying that his aim is more than just survival in this league and wants to get to the Prem. If that's the case and he wants it anytime soon then we will need to compete with the top end of this league financially or just accept our limitations. We seem to have ambition but no strategy, at least not one that is communicated...

I thought SL's aim was to make the club as self sufficient as possible hence wanting to build Ashton Vale so that the club aren't wholly dependent on his money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

But there are always clubs that punch their weight for a year or two, we certainly did after the GJ promotion

It's like last season, everyone moaned about the size of our budget. It doesn't matter what the size is, it's how you spend it. We hit the jackpot every time with the summer signings, Walsall have been a work in progress for a year or two now, Burton have had a couple of really good, young managers and Gills appear to have a belter in Edinburgh. Whilst I get your point, I wonder if in 5 years time we'll be asking the same question about these 3 clubs? By then it could be Cambridge, Morecombe and Barnet who are having a nice run. Doesn't mean any of them have found the secret of sustained success. Norwich and Swansea, Stoke & WBA before them, all have. It's them we need to copy, which you allude to above

I refer to Burton & co because they are doing it right now, it's not so much about them but what they are doing, because they are probably doing similar things to others punching above their weight.

Summer 2014, we were able to buy in many of the best in the league we were in. The result: success.

Summer 2015, we are not able to buy in any of the best in the league we are in. The result: ?

Looks like we need some more options as to how we go about things, even in L1. I'd be happy if we could replicate a "Burton" or a "Walsall." Doing a Norwich, Swans, Stoke might be a bit beyond us just yet, but yes, we should be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

I refer to Burton & co because they are doing it right now, it's not so much about them but what they are doing, because they are probably doing similar things to others punching above their weight.

Summer 2014, we were able to buy in many of the best in the league we were in. The result: success.

Summer 2015, we are not able to buy in any of the best in the league we are in. The result: ?

Looks like we need some more options as to how we go about things, even in L1. I'd be happy if we could replicate a "Burton" or a "Walsall." Doing a Norwich, Swans, Stoke might be a bit beyond us just yet, but yes, we should be

Look at Burnley and Blackpool too. They found a way to get there, although I can imagine we'd end up more like Blackpool if it happened to us!

Burnley, I get the feeling, are doing a West Brom, they yo-yoed for a year or two, didn't panic, invested the money wisely and eventually were good enough to stay up. Once you do that then you are in the land of massive cash - set the club up for decades if you do it correctly

Meanwhile, we have just about enough players to see us into the FA Cup 3rd round game this weekend

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

I thought SL's aim was to make the club as self sufficient as possible hence wanting to build Ashton Vale so that the club aren't wholly dependent on his money.

Yes. I think that he has said that as well. Do you seriously think we can make the Prem just financed by profits made from our new stadium and attendances? Just about every successful UK club is doing well as a result of substantial external investment. If there's an example of success being achieved only by organic growth then I don't know what it is. Happy for you to tell me though....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It could be worse. It's reported that Aston Villa are going to loan N'Zogbia to AEK Athens. He cost £9.5m, has earned approx £15m, but has only started 63 games. That's nearly £390k per game! I know that they are a Premiership team but we definitely can't compete with that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

Look at Burnley and Blackpool too. They found a way to get there, although I can imagine we'd end up more like Blackpool if it happened to us!

Burnley, I get the feeling, are doing a West Brom, they yo-yoed for a year or two, didn't panic, invested the money wisely and eventually were good enough to stay up. Once you do that then you are in the land of massive cash - set the club up for decades if you do it correctly

Meanwhile, we have just about enough players to see us into the FA Cup 3rd round game this weekend

Burnley, an excellent example.

They have demonstrated what can be done, promoted to the Prem (we're only looking for security, midtable, nothing flash) in 2009, on an average gate of 13,082. Six or seven years ago now, but they were up against clubs with parachute payments, bigger and "more attractive" clubs, with bigger crowds (like us! 16,800 that year, and a bloke pumping millions into it, topping up the wage bill) such as Derby 29k, Sheffs U and Weds etc.

So, it can be done. It is possible to compete with clubs with greater resources.

As Pongo has pointed out, Brentford are doing well and that is now, not 2009.

All the "we can't compete" talk might be more accurately put like this: "we don't know how to compete"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Burnley, an excellent example.

They have demonstrated what can be done, promoted to the Prem (we're only looking for security, midtable, nothing flash) in 2009, on an average gate of 13,082. Six or seven years ago now, but they were up against clubs with parachute payments, bigger and "more attractive" clubs, with bigger crowds (like us! 16,800 that year, and a bloke pumping millions into it, topping up the wage bill) such as Derby 29k, Sheffs U and Weds etc.

So, it can be done. It is possible to compete with clubs with greater resources.

As Pongo has pointed out, Brentford are doing well and that is now, not 2009.

All the "we can't compete" talk might be more accurately put like this: "we don't know how to compete"

That's the key point, Jack - not a clue. As I just said on another thread, amateur

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...