No Backbone, Manager's fault?

[Guest The Original BBB]

Pay your money you get whats on show.

Yeah, first half great but what were the second half instructions? Would Warnock or Holloway let that slip, no. 

It felt like a defeat coming back on the train, still you could always sit at home and be a bitch.

[Robbored]

McLaren set up wrongly, obviously not rating City's ability to provide serious opposition. He got it wrong but at 2-0 down realised his error and subbed his starting two midfielders. Pretty soon he was three down.

Obviously he got into them at ht and they were much better second half and ended up drawing the game.

Had he started with his strongest side City would almost certainly lost yesterday.

No criticism from me earning a point at Derby. Just enjoy the fact that City played pretty well and came away with a point.

[brizzlelou]

26 minutes ago, The Original BBB said:

Pay your money you get whats on show.

Yeah, first half great but what were the second half instructions? Would Warnock or Holloway let that slip, no. 

It felt like a defeat coming back on the train, still you could always sit at home and be a bitch.

 

[BigTone]

22 minutes ago, Robbored said:

McLaren set up wrongly, obviously not rating City's ability to provide serious opposition. He got it wrong but at 2-0 down realised his error and subbed his starting two midfielders. Pretty soon he was three down.

Obviously he got into them at ht and they were much better second half and ended up drawing the game.

Had he started with his strongest side City would almost certainly lost yesterday.

No criticism from me earning a point at Derby. Just enjoy the fact that City played pretty well and came away with a point.

Sorry Robbo. at this level there is no excuse for forfeiting a 3 nil lead. It is relegation form !

[Red Grovesy]

36 minutes ago, Robbored said:

McLaren set up wrongly, obviously not rating City's ability to provide serious opposition. He got it wrong but at 2-0 down realised his error and subbed his starting two midfielders. Pretty soon he was three down.

Obviously he got into them at ht and they were much better second half and ended up drawing the game.

Had he started with his strongest side City would almost certainly lost yesterday.

No criticism from me earning a point at Derby. Just enjoy the fact that City played pretty well and came away with a point.

One interesting observation was he sent his players out quite a few minutes early (for the 2nd half). They were running / warming up well before The City players emerged. Interesting tactics as it was bloody cold in Derby yesterday.

[shelts]

Most teams would win a game after being three up and 56 minutes on the clock . Our players need to take a good look at themselves. I think if we had four goals at half time we might of won!

Manager has changed things and it ain't worked. Still created chances and missed. Slow to close down, stop  the ball coming in, then they lose our markers. Lack of concentration . Story of the season . 

[chinapig]

31 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Sorry Robbo. at this level there is no excuse for forfeiting a 3 nil lead. It is relegation form !

That was my initial response. Then I listened to this week's Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, which had an item about the Patriots comeback in the Superbowl.

I won't try to summarise the whole case but the point is that it was much more likely than hindsight would suggest because of regression to the mean. Certainly Derby scoring 3 goals yesterday was a much more likely event than us doing the same.

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

That was my initial response. Then I listened to this week's Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, which had an item about the Patriots comeback in the Superbowl.

I won't try to summarise the whole case but the point is that it was much more likely than hindsight would suggest because of regression to the mean. Certainly Derby scoring 3 goals yesterday was a much more likely event than us doing the same.

But it is a regular occurrence for us and not just a once off

[chinapig]

Just now, BigTone said:

But it is a regular occurrence for us and not just a once off

Giving away soft late goals from individual errors certainly is*, and it didn't help that we missed chances either but I was referring to the probability of Derby coming back in the second half, which was higher than might be expected.

*and I still wonder if fitness is a factor in that.

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

9 minutes ago, BigTone said:

But it is a regular occurrence for us and not just a once off

Giving away soft late goals from individual errors certainly is*, and it didn't help that we missed chances either but I was referring to the probability of Derby coming back in the second half, which was higher than might be expected.

*and I still wonder if fitness is a factor in that.

Given all the crap we hear about our "scientific methods" I sincerely hope not

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

Given all the crap we hear about our "scientific methods" I sincerely hope not

Quite, yet I don't recall LJ ever talking about the importance of fitness, especially if you want to play the pressing game we did yesterday. Tired players tend to make more mistakes.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

McLaren set up wrongly, obviously not rating City's ability to provide serious opposition. He got it wrong but at 2-0 down realised his error and subbed his starting two midfielders. Pretty soon he was three down.

Obviously he got into them at ht and they were much better second half and ended up drawing the game.

Had he started with his strongest side City would almost certainly lost yesterday.

No criticism from me earning a point at Derby. Just enjoy the fact that City played pretty well and came away with a point.

Begs the question for me, once McLaren had played two thirds of his hand, how come LJ and his staff didn't immediately counter that ploy with changing our system or at least after the 1st goal? to give Derby a different problem.

[JoeAman08]

If this wasn't on the back of January where it happened time after time and if all year we didn't concede late goals that cost us points then I wouldn't be so critical of losing a 3 goal lead. It's football and it happens but it happens to us too often. 

Its a mix for me. Cardiff I thought the players needed to have a look in the mirror. Reading I thought LJ got the subs wrong. Though I think the players need to take more of the blame then they get. There have been games where they let opposition win 50/50 balls. Scared to commit a foul and go through someone late on. A reluctance to be cynical at times. See it week after week us getting pushed and kicked. We don't do the same. Wright brings some of this to us but we don't have the mentality to see games out no matter what. 

[Robbored]

I know that City blew a 3-0 lead and I was of course disappointed like all of us but before the game I wasn't expecting any kind of result and  to come away with a point was pleasing, to me anyway.

Three undefeated is a significant change from how results were just a few games ago.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I know that City blew a 3-0 lead and I was of course disappointed like all of us but before the game I wasn't expecting any kind of result and  to come away with a point was pleasing, to me anyway.

Three undefeated is a significant change from how results were just a few games ago.

I agree with the last sentence.

But to counter the highlighted portion did that expectation change at all at half time?.

[Portland Bill]

45 minutes ago, BigTone said:

But it is a regular occurrence for us and not just a once off

I don't think they have got to that part of the 'project' yet!  

 

[BCFC Rich]

The game kind of summed up where we are at the moment. First half showed why some people want to keep LJ and second why some people want him to go. I think whichever side of that line you fall on you could use the game to justify your view. But maybe a better thing to do would be to acknowledge that fact and agree that both sides of the argument have some logic. I enjoy debating the ins and outs of whether LJ should stay but I'm pretty sick of people on both sides of the argument claiming that the other is clueless or stupid just because they offer another opinion. I can disagree with you and still understand where you are coming from and we all want the best for the club, we just disagree on what that looks like.

 

[RedRock]

Now, my fellow Bristolians 'don't take this wrong'. I'm a proud Bristolian.

I've now lived two- thirds of my life away from Bristol so have some perspective of the Bristol character and work ethic. 

There's reason why Bristol Rugby, Bristol Flyers, Bristol Badminton, Bristol City - despite the resources being poured into the teams - all sit adrift at the bottom or very close to the bottom of their respective leagues.

Bristol is soft. There's no killer instinct. 

Nice place, nice people. Any 'outsider' soon gets sucked into the laid-back style. 

Why someone like Neil Warnock was needed. Sort the f****ers out. Was Lee saying something like he didn't know whether to give them a hug or kick their arses after giving away a 3-0 lead at 50 minutes?  Don't think Neil would have even asked the question, let alone deliberated on an answer. 

The SoD/LJ nice possession- based, tippy tappy, crab football fits the Bristolian style just fine. Fortunately, the FA textbook trained Lee has belatedly woken up to the EFA being 5 years behind the rest of the football world and is realising that power, precision, high intensity pressing football is today's requirement. 

Let's hope he can get the team out of their comfort zone and turn things 'round sharpish. Recent acquisitions indicate he just might. 

Once he's sorted the football side out maybe then he could have a word with the egg-chasers and others. 

[Smokey]

41 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I agree with the last sentence.

But to counter the highlighted portion did that expectation change at all at half time?.

Mine sure did. Pleased with the performance, pleased to score 3 goals, absolutely gutted we didn't win.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, smokey live said:

Mine sure did. Pleased with the performance, pleased to score 3 goals, absolutely gutted we didn't win.

And so did mine, right up until the first Derby goal went in and then I thought here we ******* well go again.

Which all goes to show that expectations change and should not be used as any sort of barometer because usually when the word expectation is used it's to cover up failure or unhappiness and therefore normally an excuse because things didn't turn out how you wanted them to.

[1960maaan]

I didn't go but would be interested to get some feedback on a couple of things.

The subs, Derby changed things and we didn't reply in kind until the 74th minute (just before their 2nd).  No we had caused them trouble with pace and movement and he put on a target man How did we play after?
How did we set up after Odowda came on ?

I read Ole's report (think it was) and sounded promising , but did we revert to sitting deeper and deeper ?

Have to say I saw the half time score on TV in the bar at Braintree Vs North Ferriby (Makes me appreciate our team and the refs) and didn't feel confident. Talking to the locals and they thought it as over at HT, they seemed surprised when I said we could still throw it away.

Another thing, dropping a player from the squad that has  been a first team regular seems odd. To do that when the team continually throws goals away is ridiculous, when this player can cover a couple of positions  is beyond reason. Surely Vyner and Mags on the bench cover the entire back four , add a keeper and Pack to cover MF. Then you have 3 spaces for attacking options . Not to have Mags travel in case anyone breaks down pre kick of seems negligent .

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Now, my fellow Bristolians 'don't take this wrong'. I'm a proud Bristolian.

I've now lived two- thirds of my life away from Bristol so have some perspective of the Bristol character and work ethic. 

There's reason why Bristol Rugby, Bristol Flyers, Bristol Badminton, Bristol City - despite the resources being poured into the teams - all sit adrift at the bottom or very close to the bottom of their respective leagues.

Bristol is soft. There's no killer instinct. 

Nice place, nice people. Any 'outsider' soon gets sucked into the laid-back style. 

Why someone like Neil Warnock was needed. Sort the f****ers out. Was Lee saying something like he didn't know whether to give them a hug or kick their arses after giving away a 3-0 lead at 50 minutes?  Don't think Neil would have even asked the question, let alone deliberated on an answer. 

The SoD/LJ nice possession- based, tippy tappy, crab football fits the Bristolian style just fine. Fortunately, the FA textbook trained Lee has belatedly woken up to the EFA being 5 years behind the rest of the football world and is realising that power, precision, high intensity pressing football is today's requirement. 

Let's hope he can get the team out of their comfort zone and turn things 'round sharpish. Recent acquisitions indicate he just might. 

Once he's sorted the football side out maybe then he could have a word with the egg-chasers and others. 

Your post is a mite fanciful.

Perhaps consistent team selection and clear consistent ideas of what to do when out of possession would be of benefit to this team of soft Foreigners/Northerners/Londoners/Bristolians ... Would be of benefit?

City's football yesterday was possession based wasn't it? To feet (tippy tappy)?

 

 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

But to counter the highlighted portion did that expectation change at all at half time?.

At half time I was both optimistic and delighted to be 3 up but there was that nagging thought that kept saying " this is City" and when they made 1-3 I kinda knew we'd blow it but didn't want to believe it......

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Just now, Robbored said:

At half time I was both optimistic and delighted to be 3 up but there was that nagging thought that kept saying " this is City" and when they made 1-3 I kinda knew we'd blow it but didn't want to believe it......

Which sort of confirms the OP wouldn't you say?, especially given the size of lead.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

3 hours ago, The Original BBB said:

Pay your money you get whats on show.

Yeah, first half great but what were the second half instructions? Would Warnock or Holloway let that slip, no. 

It felt like a defeat coming back on the train, still you could always sit at home and be a bitch.

So what were the managers' instructions then?  I doubt they were "go out there and lose this one".  Let's face it, if Matty Taylor hadn't missed one of the worst open goals I've ever seen, we would have won.  Presumably that wasn't part of Lee's half time instructions!  I know I've been described as a happy clapper elsewhere (I'm not, but I'll let it pass), but I thought the team picked yesterday was bold, and I thought the substitutes were right.  Derby came back well, as they were always likely to do.  Maybe, though I doubt many here will accept it, the comeback was more to do with Derby's strength than our weakness.  After the initial disappointment, today I feel it was a decent point and something to build on.  I think we are close to being a good team, and will get better as all the new players bed in.

[Redtucks]

59 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Why someone like Neil Warnock was needed. Sort the f****ers out. Was Lee saying something like he didn't know whether to give them a hug or kick their arses after giving away a 3-0 lead at 50 minutes?  Don't think Neil would have even asked the question, let alone deliberated on an answer. 

 

He would probably have had someone die and come back to life, like he did with Rotherham at Ashton Gate last season.

'kin cheat!!!

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

He would probably have had someone die and come back to life, like he did with Rotherham at Ashton Gate last season.

'kin cheat!!!

 

Like Ince per chance?

 

[Fiale]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

That was my initial response. Then I listened to this week's Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, which had an item about the Patriots comeback in the Superbowl.

I won't try to summarise the whole case but the point is that it was much more likely than hindsight would suggest because of regression to the mean. Certainly Derby scoring 3 goals yesterday was a much more likely event than us doing the same.

 

Love those podcast - though a few behind atm

[chinapig]

10 hours ago, Fiale said:

 

Love those podcast - though a few behind atm

One of my favourites, and I listen to a lot of podcasts. Definitely worth listening to this week's as I say. It gives a different perspective on sport compared to the usual cliches.

[Major Isewater]

15 hours ago, Robbored said:

At half time I was both optimistic and delighted to be 3 up but there was that nagging thought that kept saying " this is City" and when they made 1-3 I kinda knew we'd blow it but didn't want to believe it......

I was just chuffed that we didn't lose ! 

I have sympathy with the idea that City are too nice .

We are and mostly have been .

Not for us the Warnock style of effective winning with the players we could attract but the crazy belief that our players can ' out football ' more talented players from clubs who are / were better run , richer and more attractive  with their heritage, type Leeds , Sheff Weds etc .

How many young players dream of playing for us ? 

We are moving in the right direction but are still miles away .

We ,as fans,  want flowing attacking football and won't accept the pragmatic approach championned by Pulis for example, who recognises that the most important thing in football is winning and knows how to get the best out of limited players and unfashionable clubs .