Official retraction of Saturday's match report

[Red-Robbo]

9 hours ago, RedDave said:

Brownhill did end the first half in a central area but it made no difference.  Harsh mark on Baker and far too generous on Paterson, Reid and Diedhiou.

Generous on Reid? We'd have 1 point and be bottom of the league without his goals. 

What more can you ask of someone playing up front than score more than a goal a game?

[samo II]

2 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Ole is a great poster no doubts but you get why people take some offence when the title of the thread is to the effect of retracting saturdays report. Truth is we'll play better against some teams than others and it's only 3 games which in 2/3 we've played well. Until we are 10-12 games in just call it match report. It doesn't make what he's saying invalid. We could very well be seeing the start of us struggling all season but why not give it a chance first? 

That's fair, but I'd range a guess the title was a bit of a joke - the content was measured.

I also agree it is too early to judge; I mentioned after Villa we'll have a much better idea thanks to the range of teams we'll have faced, but as a fan base it shouldn't be seen as usual that even early signs of frailties are going to be worrying, given how we struggle much of last season.

Ultimately, I think time and more performances will tell, and I'd say we've played better overall this year so far, so mark me an optimist.

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Generous on Reid? We'd have 1 point and be bottom of the league without his goals. 

What more can you ask of someone playing up front than score more than a goal a game?

Amen to that.

Of course he could do more, but he four goals in three games for someone playing his first few games as an out-and-out striker isn't half bad. 

[Strictly Obi]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

I for one am taking Ole's posts very seriously. Last seasons away form was abysmal and I was seriously hoping the manager would have worked out a different tactical plan for this seasons away game approach.

Alas it seems he hasn't learned ( or incapable of changing) anything.

Ole clearly knows the game, he called last season very early for what it turned out to be, he and a lot of us weren't fooled by a decent early points tally last season. 

Perhaps you should take note of what knowledgeable football fans are saying, two away games, two managers totally outwitting ours.....again.

I always take note of knowledgeable fans, so excuse me if I resign yours to the litter tray! 

[NickJ]

4 hours ago, Jacki said:

 I was concerned that LJ came out and said we deserved a point too.

 

3 hours ago, sab said:

 LJ doesn't help himself with " we deserved a point"

Agreed, and it is very concerning if LJ genuinely believes that.

Not one other person at the game would have said with sincerity that we deserved a point, we were totally outplayed.

 

[WRERE]

Obviously we were incredibly poor last night and not up to the test but the three previous performances were fantastic and I'm hoping that last night was just a blip and a bad day for us. I don't think too much can be read into last nights game and we should give the team 10-15 games and then review there. There are some things that need looking at by Johnson and his post match interview annoyed me a bit.

Tactically I think we should've changed to a 4-1-4-1 at HT with Reid or Brownhill coming in centrally and the other taking the wide role and Smith dropping off behind the midfield. This would've allowed our wide men to stay close to Brentford's but also give us 3 in middle. I thought Watkins looked class last night and run Pisano ragged at times with some nice turns and cutting in.

Brentford are a fantastic side and despite a poor start I still feel they will make the playoffs. We were outclassed and it won't be the first time this happens over the season but we still managed to grab an underserved point. Let's see how the players react on Saturday.

 

[And Its Smith]

17 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Generous on Reid? We'd have 1 point and be bottom of the league without his goals. 

What more can you ask of someone playing up front than score more than a goal a game?

Talking about yesterday's game only. 

[mozo]

We're an average team at this level so expect inconsistency and ups and downs. It would be pointless to get giddy at every win or despondent at every poor performance.

This forum will go nuts in September. Our fixtures next month present a nightmare waiting to happen!

[paulcityfan]

Excellent analysis.  However GoN possibly should have a higher rating for taking one for the team and making the pro foul when Fielding was up the pitch.  Would have been curtains if they'd scored into that empty net then

[Fjmcity]

Scoring early is brilliant, and is the much harder thing to do then work out the problem of managing games better thereafter.

it is some of the same problems cropping up as last season sure - but two lost games   one lost game away from home by no means says our season is f**ked. the problem last season was the continuation of this problem, not necessarily the losing of games themselves, if we can flatten out this profile of W/L/D I will be happy, a successful season this year is avoiding a relegation battle and hopefully having some fun and 'dreams'  of furthering our potential along the way.

We will beat Millwall, and have an excellent chance to beat villa on a Friday night on TV. if that is the case surely you can sit back and say 9 points from 15 is way better than you should even hope for. Keep AG a fortress where I think we have a much better chance of finishing teams off with the start to games we have been having and hope LJ and the team gets a little smarter away from home.

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, paulcityfan said:

Excellent analysis.  However GoN possibly should have a higher rating for taking one for the team and making the pro foul when Fielding was up the pitch.  Would have been curtains if they'd scored into that empty net then

Good point, forgot about that. Point gaining foul that was!!!

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

I for one am taking Ole's posts very seriously. Last seasons away form was abysmal and I was seriously hoping the manager would have worked out a different tactical plan for this seasons away game approach.

Our away record in the Championship under LJ reads:

Played: 32 Won: 6 Drawn: 8 Lost: 18

Points per game 0.83

That is pretty shocking and if we continue at that rate then it will be difficult for us to move away from being a bottom 6 team in this division.

Nothing much to add to what has already been said regarding last night. We were completely outplayed for 80 minutes of the game by a club that has spent less on transfer fees in its entire history than we have done in the past 18 months. It was like watching a plucky non-league side go away to a league club, score early on, and desperately try to defend the lead for the rest of the game. The inaction from the bench was just bizarre. Nothing was happening for us but the head coach didn't deme it necessary to make any changes. Poor leadership.

The one thing I will disagree with others is that I actually didn't think Brentford were THAT good. If they were, then frankly they would've been out of sight by half-time. Yes, loads of football that was very pleasing on the eye but their precision in the final third wasn't all that. Indeed, I heard Brentford fans outside saying they didn't think they played that well! Also, they were a mess defensively - what was going on in their penalty area at the end? They panicked. Easy to see how they could've conceded 4 at Forest.

To dominate a game as much as they did and to still concede 2 should raise alarm bells for their fans.

As for us, based on what I've seen so far, we are not going to pick up many points away from home at all. That will inevitably, and sadly, lead to another season of struggle. Unless something changes.

[bearded_red]

It was truly dismal.

To be fair I think Brentford are a good team, have some very talented players and I actually tipped them before the season started to get into the play-offs. So, even taking into account that their two previous games saw them get beat by a team up from League 1 and a very average Forest side I think a draw at their place in my opinion is actually a good point and plenty of better teams than us will leave Griffin Park with nothing this season.

However we were completely and utterly outplayed. It wasn't that they were a bit better than us and it wasn't that although they had lots of possession we were fairly secure. They absolutely battered us and for the vast majority of the game we were desperately holding on.

When we played them towards the end of last season, we were utterly horrid and Fielding kept the scoreline respectable. I missed three league games last season (fortunately one was Preston) and I thought our performance there was the worst of the season. Last night was hardly any better. Last night, just like in April, Fielding pretty much single handedly kept the scoreline respectable when Brentford could and should have been well and truly out of sight. Thankfully by contrast to last season where Tammy and Taylor wasted the only two chances we created last night Brownhill and Reid managed to take theirs to absolutely rob us a point.

The midfield was completely overran and although both central midfielders probably deserve the criticism they've taken, they were completely outnumbered whilst we waited until the 73rd minute to even try and change things and at the very least get another body in there. By contract Redknapp on Saturday put another midfielder on at half time which put an immediate stop to our domination of the game.

I'm afraid the performance from Diedhiou in these two away games has been a concern for me. It is of course far too early to make a proper judgement either way, and bearing in mind we have pretty much no other options at the moment than to repeatedly throw in him back in there as he is adapting to the league any criticism does seem a bit harsh. However in the second half on Saturday and for the vast majority of last night's game he offered next to nothing. Playing up front in a team that is being outplayed is of course a very difficult task, but he has to offer something. He has to be some sort of threat, to hold the ball, to chase channels, to not allow their defenders easy ball. You need someone to offer the defence some respite and to a way of getting you up the pitch when you've spent the entire game on the edge of your box, He really didn't give us that last night or second half at St Andrews. The part of that interview with Wilbs that made me chuckle was when he said “I’m old enough to know that if we got four or five games in and we weren’t playing well, he’d have rely on me again. He was saying similar things last year and I still played 36 times" and make no mistake, had Wilbs been on the bench in the last two games I'd have been chucking him on after 65/70 minutes at St Andrews and at half time last night. Now I love the bloke, but thinking like that really isn't ideal and doesn't really show a lot of progression.

Now I was pretty ******* annoyed watching us last night, but I was more than content to forget all that and happily take a good point from, as I say, a team that I think will be a lot closer to the top than us. However seeing our Head Coach claim we deserved the point is close to being beyond belief. Show some humility, admit we were poor, praise Fielding and to a lesser extent Reid, praise the spirit shown in hanging on in there and nicking a point at the end. All of that absolutely fine, but to claim we deserved the point? My god. I really really hope he was just saying that in the media rather than actually deep down believing it.

Still, we have a very winnable game Saturday and should we get the three points than 7 points from 4 games will be a very decent start.

[chipdawg]

2 hours ago, pongo88 said:

We played well for 45 minutes and Ok for 45 minutes in the first match. Played well for 45 minutes and badly for 45 minutes in the second. Played well for 5 minutes (being generous) and were non existent for 85 minutes in the third.  The conclusions I'd draw are City are currently incapable of consistently playing at a standard required to avoid another relegation fight, LJ is incapable of changing the rabbit in the headlights image when things go wrong, and the summer signings haven't really strengthened the team. Only 3 matches into the season, so a bit early perhaps, but after last season a bit worrying

My original post was facetious and there are undoubtedly areas of concern, but the point is that you can't draw any conclusions 3 games into a season where teams have yet to complete their squads. Cardiff and Ipswich have won all their games so far, do you think they're likely to challenge for the title? Villa, Norwich and Wednesday have yet to win- do you think they'll be relegated? The only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that it's impossible to draw any conclusions. I'm dubious as to whether LJ has the nous to get us promoted, but I very much want him to succeed and I'm prepared to give him more than 270 minutes to prove it

[Esmond Million's Bung]

31 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Which has to be the reason we're looking for a midfielder right? Not a striker. We can recall loaned strikers (surely) if we need them.

Are we?, that's news to me, LJ said last night there was a bid in for a striker, I have heard nothing about midfielders nothing at all, recalling strikers? depends on the deal and this BCFC we are talking about so I would say probably not.

The point is we should never have been in this position in the first place.

[Kid in the Riot]

9 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

I'm afraid the performance from Diedhiou in these two away games has been a concern for me. It is of course far too early to make a proper judgement either way, and bearing in mind we have pretty much no other options at the moment than to repeatedly throw in him back in there as he is adapting to the league any criticism does seem a bit harsh. However in the second half on Saturday and for the vast majority of last night's game he offered next to nothing. Playing up front in a team that is being outplayed is of course a very difficult task, but he has to offer something. He has to be some sort of threat, to hold the ball, to chase channels, to not allow their defenders easy ball. You need someone to offer the defence some respite and to a way of getting you up the pitch when you've spent the entire game on the edge of your box, He really didn't give us that last night or second half at St Andrews. The part of that interview with Wilbs that made me chuckle was when he said “I’m old enough to know that if we got four or five games in and we weren’t playing well, he’d have rely on me again. He was saying similar things last year and I still played 36 times" and make no mistake, had Wilbs been on the bench in the last two games I'd have been chucking him on after 65/70 minutes at St Andrews and at half time last night. Now I love the bloke, but thinking like that really isn't ideal and doesn't really show a lot of progression.

I felt sorry for Diedhiou as he was just feeding off scraps all night. He had no support whatsoever for most of the night and the ball was just being aimlessly punted up the pitch in the vein hope that it would go somewhere near him. Service? Chances provided for him? Zilch from memory. I do hear what you are saying about Wilbs and I expect he'd of used his experience to win a few free kicks and help make the ball stick a little better up top. But overall I just can't judge Diedhiou too harshly in a game that was played in that manner last night.

Đurić I think is a big miss, and I know LJ rates him highly. He would've also been a very useful option to have on the bench.

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I felt sorry for Diedhiou as he was just feeding off scraps all night. He had no support whatsoever for most of the night and the ball was just being aimlessly punted up the pitch in the vein hope that it would go somewhere near him. Service? Chances provided for him? Zilch from memory. I do hear what you are saying about Wilbs and I expect he'd of used his experience to win a few free kicks and help make the ball stick a little better up top. But overall I just can't judge Diedhiou too harshly in a game that was played in that manner last night.

Đurić I think is a big miss, and I know LJ rates him highly. He would've also been a very useful option to have on the bench.

Oh I absolutely agree with all that you've said. I absolutely accept that any criticism of him based on last night is very harsh.

But I can't help but think that the big centre forward does have to find a way of being enough of a nuisance from those aimless balls forward that he somehow gets you up the pitch and offers some respite for a hilariously overworked defence. There were a couple as well that were played up to him that the Brentford centre halves won with alarming ease.

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

My original post was facetious and there are undoubtedly areas of concern, but the point is that you can't draw any conclusions 3 games into a season where teams have yet to complete their squads. Cardiff and Ipswich have won all their games so far, do you think they're likely to challenge for the title? Villa, Norwich and Wednesday have yet to win- do you think they'll be relegated? The only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that it's impossible to draw any conclusions. I'm dubious as to whether LJ has the nous to get us promoted, but I very much want him to succeed and I'm prepared to give him more than 270 minutes to prove it

Agreed about it being early doors and still quite hard to draw concrete conclusions.

I think Cardiff could be surprising a few- Warnock knowhow and their rather difficult style of play. Ipswich? Definitely not- just have a look at their stats they are truly unsustainable to the point of crazy.

Agree with the thrust of your post though, 10 games in, maybe 15 we will have a strong idea.

[Portland Bill]

56 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Ole is a great poster no doubts but you get why people take some offence when the title of the thread is to the effect of retracting saturdays report. Truth is we'll play better against some teams than others and it's only 3 games which in 2/3 we've played well. Until we are 10-12 games in just call it match report. It doesn't make what he's saying invalid. We could very well be seeing the start of us struggling all season but why not give it a chance first? 

Possibly......... because early indications show that our manager hasn't learned a lot from last season, two away games, two leads thrown away already. Last season away games replicated.

Its not posters posting stuff which is the problem, it's what they are seeing on the football pitch that is, we cannot continue throwing away leads in away games.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I felt sorry for Diedhiou as he was just feeding off scraps all night. He had no support whatsoever for most of the night and the ball was just being aimlessly punted up the pitch in the vein hope that it would go somewhere near him. Service? Chances provided for him? Zilch from memory. I do hear what you are saying about Wilbs and I expect he'd of used his experience to win a few free kicks and help make the ball stick a little better up top. But overall I just can't judge Diedhiou too harshly in a game that was played in that manner last night.

Đurić I think is a big miss, and I know LJ rates him highly. He would've also been a very useful option to have on the bench.

I agree about Diedhiou, but that does not account for his woeful first touch and poor decision making when he did have the ball last night, that really does need to improve.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Just now, Portland Bill said:

Possibly......... because early indications show that our manager hasn't learned a lot from last season, two away games, two leads thrown away already. Last season away games replicated.

Its not posters posting stuff which is the problem, it's what they are seeing on the football pitch that is, we cannot continue throwing away leads in away games.

You are correct but sadly instead of some posters looking at areas that need improving and the old problems of last season still being evident 3 games in, they are just focusing on the points gained.

The same people said exactly the same last season, with our good start although some of us said we will eventually get found out and we did big style, some off us can see the same old same old already and happen to think if not properly addressed we will struggle once more and that is just not acceptable.

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I agree about Diedhiou, but that does not account for his woeful first touch and poor decision making when he did have the ball last night, that really does need to improve.

Well, it could do. I haven't seen enough of him to pass judgement but if you are hardly seeing any of the ball all game and watching your side struggle generally it can be disheartening and his play could be effected as a result. If, in 10 games or whatever he's seeing plenty of the ball and his touch/decision making is still poor then fair enough...I'm at the Millwall game Saturday and I'm sure I'll be able to form a better judgement of him then. My only real initial thought on him is what a beast he is, huge bloke.

[exAtyeoMax]

36 minutes ago, chipdawg said:

My original post was facetious and there are undoubtedly areas of concern, but the point is that you can't draw any conclusions 3 games into a season where teams have yet to complete their squads. Cardiff and Ipswich have won all their games so far, do you think they're likely to challenge for the title? Villa, Norwich and Wednesday have yet to win- do you think they'll be relegated? The only conclusion that can be drawn at this point is that it's impossible to draw any conclusions. I'm dubious as to whether LJ has the nous to get us promoted, but I very much want him to succeed and I'm prepared to give him more than 270 minutes to prove it

I guess the biggest difference is that most on here have actually watched the games and are drawing their conclusions from that, and not just looking at results.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Well, it could do. I haven't seen enough of him to pass judgement but if you are hardly seeing any of the ball all game and watching your side struggle generally it can be disheartening and his play could be effected as a result. If, in 10 games or whatever he's seeing plenty of the ball and his touch/decision making is still poor then fair enough...I'm at the Millwall game Saturday and I'm sure I'll be able to form a better judgement of him then. My only real initial thought on him is what a beast he is, huge bloke.

And I agree but last night he did seem to be eased off of the ball without much problem and the ball never stuck to him easing the pressure on midfield and the defence.

I am not making a judgement but he needs to be certainly stronger than he was last night and improve his first touch.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I for one am taking Ole's posts very seriously. Last seasons away form was abysmal and I was seriously hoping the manager would have worked out a different tactical plan for this seasons away game approach.

Alas it seems he hasn't learned ( or incapable of changing) anything.

Ole clearly knows the game, he called last season very early for what it turned out to be, he and a lot of us weren't fooled by a decent early points tally last season. 

Perhaps you should take note of what knowledgeable football fans are saying, two away games, two managers totally outwitting ours.....again.

All about the manager again.  Nothing about the players, so presumably you see them as helpless pawns in all this?

[JoeAman08]

15 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Possibly......... because early indications show that our manager hasn't learned a lot from last season, two away games, two leads thrown away already. Last season away games replicated.

Its not posters posting stuff which is the problem, it's what they are seeing on the football pitch that is, we cannot continue throwing away leads in away games.

Like I've said it's not an invalid point I'm only saying it's been 2 games against recently tough teams to beat at their place. One of which we play very well in and should've been out of sight by HT. Its been a mixed bag for sure but it's still only mid August. By all means give your opinions but I don't think we can conclusively say it's the same old same old from last season because of two away matches. Early signs so far still point to a young hungry and attacking team. This won't always work as we saw last night but through 3 games we are on pace for 61-62 points which I think most here would take. Let's just take it easy for another 2 months and see where we are mid October after the window is closed and new faces bed in more. That's all I'm saying. It's fine pointing it out but let's ease the concern a bit is my opinion on it. More to see first 

[054123]

I love the way the clock is continually reset to suit.

We won promotion 3 seasons ago now, that's a pretty big body of work to assess.  How would you describe it?

[Red Cloud]

10 hours ago, leadman said:

if you ever write a book, I will be buying that bitch

If only LJ read Ole's posts!

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, pongo88 said:

We played well for 45 minutes and Ok for 45 minutes in the first match. Played well for 45 minutes and badly for 45 minutes in the second. Played well for 5 minutes (being generous) and were non existent for 85 minutes in the third.  The conclusions I'd draw are City are currently incapable of consistently playing at a standard required to avoid another relegation fight, LJ is incapable of changing the rabbit in the headlights image when things go wrong, and the summer signings haven't really strengthened the team. Only 3 matches into the season, so a bit early perhaps, but after last season a bit worrying

TBH I'm not concerned about us at home, we will always win a few and lose a few.

Away from home is different, lose loads, win every 6 months. 

LJ has a very serious situation now, he has failed miserably away from home since becoming our manager, unless he comes up with an answer soon he is going to be under constant pressure.

[BCFC_Dan]

Seems like we can do pretty well when our midfield can press, harry and dominate the opposition, and we're pretty hopeless when they can't.

In both the last 2 games we've started well but then the opposition midfield has got a grip on the game and suddenly we're not pressing them, we're not passing, we're just booting the ball up to Diedhiou, which is fine until he gets tired after an hour and can't hold it up any more.

Johnson needs to work out how to deal with that and pretty quickly. I'm not sure we can do it with a 2 man midfield, 2 wingers and Bobby Reid up front. Another body needs to come into the midfield somehow and that's going to mean losing one of the attacking players.

Once Diedhiou is up to speed fitness-wise, and / or Đurić is back, we'll be better able to cope with not dominating the midfield. I think we'd have won last night if we'd had Đurić available (though I wasn't there and I realise Brentford created a *lot* of chances). Until that happens we need to think about sacrificing attacking capability for a measure of control sometimes. We're trying to be a possession-based team without sufficient capability to win and retain possession.

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

All about the manager again.  Nothing about the players, so presumably you see them as helpless pawns in all this?

A number of players were playing very poorly in that first half and no doubt failing to do what LJ would have asked of them. My issue with last night is, given what we could all see happening, why did we wait a further 25 minutes to try and rectify the issues? Our initial second half game plan seemed to be "we can't be that bad again"!!

[Olé]

3 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

you get why people take some offence when the title of the thread is to the effect of retracting saturdays report

Clickbait. 

In all seriousness, while the title was more forthright than the report, I was trying to provide a deliberate jolt. There is no point me talking about good omens on Saturday and arguing that we've really progressed from last season, for us to play a game three days later where tactically we're so limited and exhibit many familiar failings. 

Of course I don't really think we can draw conclusions simply from yesterday anymore than I really did from Saturday, but if I'm to stick my neck out over Saturday I don't think it's unreasonable to re-calibrate expectations quickly. It's not simply the ebb and flow of a mid-table side, last night re-framed how well developed tactically we are.

And by that I mean: we all suffered last season (whatever your view of the team and LJ) and yes 10 games or October will be a real point of assessment, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who is already looking for signals as to how this team has developed over last season - because improvement was so glaringly absent last season.

On Saturday we got positive evidence - not for the first time this season - that there is more understanding, speed of thought and movement. Great! But I did leave the door ajar that my praise was in spite of tactical failure in the second half. For us to repeat that same naivety the following game, is an equally significant negative signal.

We have to continue interpreting these signs until we can adequately assess the team and managers progress. Lots of great replies on this thread and I agree with most of it. This theme about the time at which it is right to take stock of progress is interesting to me: besides points/position, what other KPIs* are you actually looking for?

*Key Performance Indicators

[Red Exile]

I'm not sure it's an easily measurable KPI but what I've not seen in a long time is a sequence of solid 90 minute performances. That's what would convince me that Lee Johnson has it to manage at this level. By that I don't mean 4-0 wins, I mean a run of matches in which we put out a side that can effectively compete with the opposition, that goes about its business with assurance, and that is subtly but effectively tweaked by the managerial team to react to what the opposition does. We've seen far too many Jekyll and Hyde, 45 minutes of this and 45 of something completely different, in the past 18 months. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Seems like we can do pretty well when our midfield can press, harry and dominate the opposition, and we're pretty hopeless when they can't.

In both the last 2 games we've started well but then the opposition midfield has got a grip on the game and suddenly we're not pressing them, we're not passing, we're just booting the ball up to Diedhiou, which is fine until he gets tired after an hour and can't hold it up any more.

Johnson needs to work out how to deal with that and pretty quickly. I'm not sure we can do it with a 2 man midfield, 2 wingers and Bobby Reid up front. Another body needs to come into the midfield somehow and that's going to mean losing one of the attacking players.

Once Diedhiou is up to speed fitness-wise, and / or Đurić is back, we'll be better able to cope with not dominating the midfield. I think we'd have won last night if we'd had Đurić available (though I wasn't there and I realise Brentford created a *lot* of chances). Until that happens we need to think about sacrificing attacking capability for a measure of control sometimes. We're trying to be a possession-based team without sufficient capability to win and retain possession.

Tend to agree with this post.

A possible solution would come through training in Plans A and B I think...that and more proactive substitutions and tweaking of shape.

Unfortunately, the Plan A, Plan B idea would take months of training and we don't have that time! The increased proactivity though, well it should start Saturday and really should have started a while ago.

[JoeAman08]

39 minutes ago, Olé said:

Clickbait. 

In all seriousness, while the title was more forthright than the report, I was trying to provide a deliberate jolt. There is no point me talking about good omens on Saturday and arguing that we've really progressed from last season, for us to play a game three days later where tactically we're so limited and exhibit many familiar failings. 

Of course I don't really think we can draw conclusions simply from yesterday anymore than I really did from Saturday, but if I'm to stick my neck out over Saturday I don't think it's unreasonable to re-calibrate expectations quickly. It's not simply the ebb and flow of a mid-table side, last night re-framed how well developed tactically we are.

And by that I mean: we all suffered last season (whatever your view of the team and LJ) and yes 10 games or October will be a real point of assessment, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who is already looking for signals as to how this team has developed over last season - because improvement was so glaringly absent last season.

On Saturday we got positive evidence - not for the first time this season - that there is more understanding, speed of thought and movement. Great! But I did leave the door ajar that my praise was in spite of tactical failure in the second half. For us to repeat that same naivety the following game, is an equally significant negative signal.

We have to continue interpreting these signs until we can adequately assess the team and managers progress. Lots of great replies on this thread and I agree with most of it. This theme about the time at which it is right to take stock of progress is interesting to me: besides points/position, what other KPIs* are you actually looking for?

*Key Performance Indicators

Your write ups are great. No doubt about that and as with last season I'm sure we will be able to go back to your early season reports and see that you've spotted these things. Fair play to you and why I read you reports every week. I just feel it helps feed the knee jerk reactions on here. I doubt it matters too much but could make a few negative about Saturday and it goes from there. Not your problem at all just wanted to bring a little perspective to the post. There are definitely things that LJ and the squad need to fix and some of those stem back to last season just think the good we've seen so far this year outweighs the bad so far and there is still reason to be optimistic about having a "safe" season comfortably ahead of the relegation spots almost all season. 

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tend to agree with this post.

A possible solution would come through training in Plans A and B I think...that and more proactive substitutions and tweaking of shape.

Unfortunately, the Plan A, Plan B idea would take months of training and we don't have that time! The increased proactivity though, well it should start Saturday and really should have started a while ago.

I think a big problem here is the lack of options we have in central midfield. It's basically Pack and Smith. Hegeler didn't look nearly as comfortable there last season. GON I'm not sure is up to the level anymore to be honest. Not for large spells anyway. I alluded to it before perhaps LJ didn't think he could go 45 minutes at the pace of the game. So all that said we don't have a plan B or C for those positions. I hope we are in the market for one or that Eliasson takes over for Brownhill and it pushes Brownhill as an option in the middle. We still probably don't have the best squad depth but I like our first 13-14. Just need a bit more off the bench. Also, some fatigue could've shown last night. 4 games in 2 weeks early in the season with said limited depth. 

[EmersonsRed]

Our team selection was wrong last night, said it the second it was announced. We were always going to get popped about and taught a lesson. Unsure why we didn't drop another in, it was an LJ error and showed tactical nativity - especially given how highly he spoke of them after the game. But we got a point, so happy days  

[EmersonsRed]

1 minute ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think a big problem here is the lack of options we have in central midfield. It's basically Pack and Smith. Hegeler didn't look nearly as comfortable there last season. GON I'm not sure is up to the level anymore to be honest. Not for large spells anyway. I alluded to it before perhaps LJ didn't think he could go 45 minutes at the pace of the game. So all that said we don't have a plan B or C for those positions. I hope we are in the market for one or that Eliasson takes over for Brownhill and it pushes Brownhill as an option in the middle. We still probably don't have the best squad depth but I like our first 13-14. Just need a bit more off the bench. Also, some fatigue could've shown last night. 4 games in 2 weeks early in the season with said limited depth. 

I agree with this but our second goal was all him. Everyone lost their marbles moaning about the handball but he remained composed, didn't chase the ref, played the pass out wide. Thank god.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think a big problem here is the lack of options we have in central midfield. It's basically Pack and Smith. Hegeler didn't look nearly as comfortable there last season. GON I'm not sure is up to the level anymore to be honest. Not for large spells anyway. I alluded to it before perhaps LJ didn't think he could go 45 minutes at the pace of the game. So all that said we don't have a plan B or C for those positions. I hope we are in the market for one or that Eliasson takes over for Brownhill and it pushes Brownhill as an option in the middle. We still probably don't have the best squad depth but I like our first 13-14. Just need a bit more off the bench. Also, some fatigue could've shown last night. 4 games in 2 weeks early in the season with said limited depth. 

I think Hegeler in a midfield 3 would be useful or at least worth a proper crack.

Make you right about a lack of Plans B & C however. Fatigue can play a part too, especially with such a high tempo style. Depth is a hard one to gauge, certainly think we have a better balanced squad than recent times though.

I still think what maybe worth a crack- for the sake of balance though my views are shifting a bit with Pack's good start.

Brownhill Hegeler Smith

Would be loathe to drop Pack though, or Reid. I think energy of Brownhill, slowing tempo down, dropping in front of back 4 when needs be ability of Hegeler and the driving force that is Smith would be an interesting mix. Creates dilemmas in other areas though...

[Red Exile]

8 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Your write ups are great. No doubt about that and as with last season I'm sure we will be able to go back to your early season reports and see that you've spotted these things. Fair play to you and why I read you reports every week. I just feel it helps feed the knee jerk reactions on here. I doubt it matters too much but could make a few negative about Saturday and it goes from there. Not your problem at all just wanted to bring a little perspective to the post. There are definitely things that LJ and the squad need to fix and some of those stem back to last season just think the good we've seen so far this year outweighs the bad so far and there is still reason to be optimistic about having a "safe" season comfortably ahead of the relegation spots almost all season. 

I think the problem we have here Joe...the worm eating away at the OTIB apple...is that the reactions on here aren't all that "knee-jerk". The people who don't rate Lee Johnson haven't seen anything that changes their perspective, some are more vocal than others. Personally I fail to see why anyone thinks he's the manager we need, he simply lacks the experience we need, but that's not a knee-jerk thought, I've been consistent in my lack of enthusiasm for him and his regime for the past 9 months or so, it'll take a lot to change that now. That said I've nothing against him personally and I'd love to see the club get back on its feet at this level this season, and unimpressed as I am with LJ I'm no less enthusiastic in my support of the team!

[JoeAman08]

40 minutes ago, EmersonsRed said:

I agree with this but our second goal was all him. Everyone lost their marbles moaning about the handball but he remained composed, didn't chase the ref, played the pass out wide. Thank god.

I still think he can useful but I'm not sure he could've effected the game the whole 45 minutes or maybe I'm selling him short. My wording was probably harsh tbf. Just think he's a last 20 min sub to see out games. Which is fine but he's older and the league is only getting tougher and quicker. 

[JoeAman08]

29 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I think the problem we have here Joe...the worm eating away at the OTIB apple...is that the reactions on here aren't all that "knee-jerk". The people who don't rate Lee Johnson haven't seen anything that changes their perspective, some are more vocal than others. Personally I fail to see why anyone thinks he's the manager we need, he simply lacks the experience we need, but that's not a knee-jerk thought, I've been consistent in my lack of enthusiasm for him and his regime for the past 9 months or so, it'll take a lot to change that now. That said I've nothing against him personally and I'd love to see the club get back on its feet at this level this season, and unimpressed as I am with LJ I'm no less enthusiastic in my support of the team!

I think LJ has brought on criticism so I get that part of it. Just think some have made their minds up that he'll never be good enough. Which he may never be but that's part of my 10-12 games saying. I've seen signs of change end of last season and start of this. We can be more effective but true enough he gets out coached more often than not. If we are still losing leads by mid to late October and are in that relegation area then I might just be there with you. As for now, he's here and doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I think he's done ok developing players(some better than others). He can make good decisions tactically. I just want to keep seeing improvement and 3 games isn't enough for me to judge. 

I get he's not a fan favourite I just don't think it does any good having a negative section of fans so early in the season. 

[Red Exile]

1 minute ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think LJ has brought on criticism so I get that part of it. Just think some have made their minds up that he'll never be good enough. Which he may never be but that's part of my 10-12 games saying. I've seen signs of change end of last season and start of this. We can be more effective but true enough he gets out coached more often than not. If we are still losing leads by mid to late October and are in that relegation area then I might just be there with you. As for now, he's here and doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I think he's done ok developing players(some better than others). He can make good decisions tactically. I just want to keep seeing improvement and 3 games isn't enough for me to judge. 

I get he's not a fan favourite I just don't think it does any good having a negative section of fans so early in the season. 

The encouraging thing...thinking of unpopular managers in past eras...is that whatever people might say on here the vocal support for the club has been excellent throughout. I'll be very surprised if he turns out to be the triumphant Championship leader that we'd all like the club to have in the near future...but if he does I'll be very happy to admit that I underestimated him.

[robc]

I was at the game last night and I think Ole's analysis is absolutely spot on. As Dean Smith said too, City were outclassed for most of the game and it was ludicrous for our manager to claim that we deserved a point. There were a few under-performers in our team but for the most part it was the formation that we played that was responsible.

It was obvious to all in my immediate circle as we sat watching the game that City were going to concede a goal given the amount of pressure that we were under, and it was a miracle that we got to the interval holding on to our lead. We all thought that Johnson would make changes at half time to address the fact that we were being overrun in midfield but not a bit of it. Instead the onslaught continued and only when we had conceded and looked ready to fold did he bring on his first subs. Whoever would have thought that Bobby Reid would be our lone striker for 10 minutes? Extraordinary as that was, we then an 18 year old making his debut to beef up our attack as we had by then gone 2-1 down. Credit to the boys that they equalised but only because Brentford retreated and got nervous. On another day, and without an inspired Frankie, despite his appalling distribution, we would have been thrashed.

For me, it was another completely clueless performance by the manager. As others have said, we still do not appear to have a Plan B. Lee J has never resolved the dilemma of how to play 3 in midfield. It cost us the services of Lee Tomlin in my view. I personally would have thought it was worthwhile considering playing 3-5-2 it at times away from home in particular especially given that we have now got 4 or 5 decent centre-backs.  I understand that the criticism of this system is that it leaves you vulnerable down the flanks but I've never understood why when you play 3-5-2 both wing backs have to be up field at the same time? Surely if only one goes forward, the remaining four defenders can adjust themselves across the pitch accordingly?

Whatever, unless our manager can find a way to organise the team to respond effectively against the sort of onslaught they faced last night I have no confidence at all that we are not in for another relegation fight. Lee Johnson must get a whole let better at responding to the game unfolding in front of him. Other managers seem a whole lot better at it - consider Redknapp against us.

[cheshire_red]

Haven't seen any individual criticism or blame levelled at the players yet so that is hopefully one aspect of management learnt

[Portland Bill]

9 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Like I've said it's not an invalid point I'm only saying it's been 2 games against recently tough teams to beat at their place. One of which we play very well in and should've been out of sight by HT. Its been a mixed bag for sure but it's still only mid August. By all means give your opinions but I don't think we can conclusively say it's the same old same old from last season because of two away matches. Early signs so far still point to a young hungry and attacking team. This won't always work as we saw last night but through 3 games we are on pace for 61-62 points which I think most here would take. Let's just take it easy for another 2 months and see where we are mid October after the window is closed and new faces bed in more. That's all I'm saying. It's fine pointing it out but let's ease the concern a bit is my opinion on it. More to see first 

That's fair enough mate, and I agree with what you say. It's just that our away record under LJ is pathetically bad and has been winding me up for a long time. 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

Good analysis @robc 

[Gert Mare]

21 hours ago, Olé said:

To whom it may concern.

On Saturday I became enthralled by the rapid and skilful passing and movement of Bristol City for 45 minutes against the second consecutive poor Championship team we had faced. During that time I became convinced that my football team had turned a corner and were exhibiting attributes that would serve us well for the season ahead.

Today I realise that while we have a more balanced and close knit team, we are no further forward in terms of ability or quality, and in fact the only consistent tactical development exhibited so far compared to the prior season,  is the attacking intent for the first ten minutes of every game. Other than that, it appears the manager is no more capable

It sounds amazing to say it, but today managed to not just invert the injustice at St. Andrews, but by far exceed it in the inappropriate results stakes. We were a non-factor for the vast majority of a one-sided game at Griffin Park, were stretched to the point of breaking, yet emerged with a point which was even less warranted than Birmingham's three. 

I should add that Frankie Fielding, derided so regularly by City fans as not up to our target standard (and on the evidence of another poor day of kicking, with some reason) was actually the difference between us and an absolute thrashing. Ignore Reid's equaliser as pivotal, I lost count of the number of saves Fielding made to keep us in it.

 

If the first few games of the season had showed progress in our passing and movement, today unfortunately pitted us with a team that is well drilled in those attributes and on a like for like basis, demonstrated that we are nowhere close. Besides our opening goal, we were continually on the back foot, and battered for the best part of 80 minutes.

What is least satisfactory is that the manager, who the club hoped was riding a mini-revival arising from an easy pre-season and weak early opponents, compounded his mishandling of the second half on Saturday, by standing idly by today while we were comprehensively and obviously beaten in central midfield for more than the best part of an hour.

The hallmark of the depths of last season was comically obvious weaknesses and I'm afraid we regressed close to that territory today. Where so far this season Smith and Pack have been the ignition switch for fast pass and move breaks out of midfield, today they were hounded backwards into a seemingly permanent second layer of our defence.

Despite convincingly losing that central midfield battle for most of the game, it took well over an hour for Johnson to do anything about it - even persisting with a formation that put Brownhill and Paterson out wide, regardless that no one was left to feed them. Surely at that point you ask Brownhill to help trying to win central midfield back? Nope.

And when we did change, it was to leave Reid up front on his own. Now if that was a surrender, it was far more appropriate than the inane attacking over-exuberance that followed the Harry Redknapp adjustments on Saturday, but regardless, with all the money we spend, to have got into a position with zero backup target man is more than concerning.

 

It all started so well. But then that's the only consistent so far this season, and perhaps it's provided more reassurance than was justified. We piled forward and following a mistake like Saturday, Diedhiou rolled his marker and broke in on goal before the ball found its way to Brownhill, who swept it into the far corner. City ahead early again and buzzing.

Sadly, it would be another 90 minutes before City would really stretch the opposition defence again. Far from being a platform to push on, we surrendered the initiative as Brentford poured forward with sharper passing and movement. The only consolation first half was we finally got to see our defence, which marshalled Vibe and Jota incredibly well.

In my mind the story would be the turn of the City defence to shine, but even with Smith and Pack dropping back to contribute, it would require a succession of saves from Fielding - and the woodwork - to keep City ahead at half time. The number of crosses arising from their left, where Pisano seemed largely off the pace, was a particular concern.

Given half time to do something about 30 minutes of one sided football, we changed nothing. Within 10 minutes of the restart, Brentford were level. By now Smith - who was literally everywhere - and Pack, were effectively an extra line of defence. No matter, because their first decent cross from their right, instead asked Pisano to win in the air. He failed.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been to Griffin Park and seen them get the ball out wide and cross in and beat our defenders, but yet again we stood off the opponent and allowed the cross, and then Pisano, a welcome mat for crosses in the first half, was instead asked to win in the air one on one at the far post, yet unfortunately came up short.

Fielding would go on to make another sensational save (from Jota), before Johnson belatedly reacted to the onslaught by withdrawing Diedhiou (who topped Saturday's anonymous after 60 minutes performance with today's anonymous after 15 minutes) and Brownhill, to leave Reid an unusual solo striker, and bring O'Neil into midfield and O'Dowda out wide.

I can't argue with adding O'Neil to the fray and we got a little more stability in the middle, but truthfully a) we were already completely overrun through the middle and b) leaving just Reid up front gave us even less outlet than we had had previously. So the effect was not significant and we certainly didn't turn the flow of what was already a one sided game.

Within five minutes Brentford deservedly went in front too. They knocked the ball around the edge of the box, no one got close enough to cut it out, and their man curled it into the corner. It had been coming and it has to be said that it was hard to argue with it. There was still time for them to force more saves from Fielding - we were slipping away grimly.

With no other options we added Hinds up front (for Pack) and tried largely unsuccessfully to bundle the ball upfield. Following a prolonged injury to a Brentford player,  the closest we'd come is a miscued clearance with the keeper off his line, whipped back in on goal from long distance by O'Dowda, but ultimately headed clear just in front of the line.

Then, at the death, a twist. As City piled forward, two clear shouts for a penalty for handling in the box by defenders clearing - the second resulting from a desperate Baker shot with the last kick of the game. It was a good shout but the referee (excellent throughout) kept the game going and in the extra seconds, the keeper raced out to claim and Reid tapped in.

Delirium in the away end. It was - after the long injury - literally the death: 8 minutes after the 90th, and in the context of the game, completely unwarranted and a total mugging. I did not speak to a single fan who felt we had done anything other than got out of jail: a scarcely deserved equaliser, in a match we only competed in the first and final 5 of 100 minutes.

For that to be the case only 3 league games in, albeit against a decent and specifically counter-acting footballing team (Brentford are masters of pass and move at speed) should be a concern, but even more than that, the manner of Johnson's inability to compete tactically is the real worry from the past two away games. Some of the failings are all still there.

On Saturday we quite obviously didn't have a Plan B, a criticism thrown at the manager a number of times last season. Today not only did we not have a Plan B, but our Plan A fell to pieces quickly too. In both cases we surrendered not just the lead, but the match and all visible momentum. The only shard of light was our five minute hustle for an equaliser.

The optimism from Saturday may have to be re-assessed. The glowing references in my prior report certainly warrant retraction!

 

Fielding 9 Kicking is still shocking, but without his saves we would have lost 5-1 or more. Kept us in the game - no other way to describe it.

Pisano 5 Has the engine to get up and down but positioning and ability to win the ball all suspect. Far too many crosses from his side first half, and beaten in the air for the equaliser.

Bryan 6 Regressing to the Bryan at Griffin Park last season. Moments in the first half where he totally abandoned the player he was marking allowing them a free shot on goal.

Wright 7 The best of a poor defence. Got stuck in wherever he could and won a number of balls when it felt like Sawyers, Jota and Vibe were slicing our defence open.

Baker 6 I thought Hegeler won a number of first balls on Saturday and was unlucky to be dropped. Don't think Baker did nearly enough to attack crosses into the box for us to celebrate his inclusion just yet.

Smith 8 Fielding was a clear MoM for us, but Smith was our best outfield player by some distance. Ran himself into the ground chasing everything. Sadly mostly defensively but right to the end he was trying to get himself forward, we don't have many players who give everything in spite of the challenge.

Pack 6 Forced into an almost entirely defensive role and didn't have the speed or engine to offer anything other than that. To compound that could have done better for their second goal.

Brownhill 6 Good finish for the goal, and not really his fault, but little point him being out on the wing when we're overrun in central midfield and not even close to being able to get the ball played forward and into him. More Johnson's fault than his, but hard to see his value when he's so outside of the action.

Paterson 5 The rub on this guy is that he is inconsistent and I'm afraid here we are again. After a couple of bright games, nowhere near the quality or strength needed and I would wager will lose his place to O'Dowda for Saturday who at least affects the game.

Reid 7 Still working his proverbials off, had little or no service and a virtually non-existent target man alongside him, but he chased causes to both flanks all game for 98 minutes, and was ready to claim that equaliser. Hard to argue that he is our best player this season by some distance. The guy is on fire.

Diedhiou 5 Worrying that he is not getting into games. Was always a project and going to be raw but for over £5m I would expect us to have got closer to a 90 minute player by now. Sharp from the start but too quickly played out of games and unable to effectively link up with anyone. Undoubtedly a workhorse but fizzles out very quickly.

 

Subs:

O'Dowda 7 More physical and animated than a below par Paterson, draws fouls and is exclusively forward thinking - his reaction with the keeper off his line, deserved better.

O'Neil 5 Added some shape to the huge gaps we were absent from in central midfield, and managed one shot at goal, although truthfully did not look up to speed yet.

Hinds 6 Not much sight of the ball but could see from his movement that he would have been welcome on Saturday, he gets into some positions.

Pretty much exactly as I saw it to a tee. Concerning to say the least.

[reddoh]

11 hours ago, WRERE said:

Obviously we were incredibly poor last night and not up to the test but the three previous performances were fantastic and I'm hoping that last night was just a blip and a bad day for us. I don't think too much can be read into last nights game and we should give the team 10-15 games and then review there. There are some things that need looking at by Johnson and his post match interview annoyed me a bit.

Tactically I think we should've changed to a 4-1-4-1 at HT with Reid or Brownhill coming in centrally and the other taking the wide role and Smith dropping off behind the midfield. This would've allowed our wide men to stay close to Brentford's but also give us 3 in middle. I thought Watkins looked class last night and run Pisano ragged at times with some nice turns and cutting in.

Brentford are a fantastic side and despite a poor start I still feel they will make the playoffs. We were outclassed and it won't be the first time this happens over the season but we still managed to grab an underserved point. Let's see how the players react on Saturday.

 

yes it will but I grant you it may not be the last.

[freezer]

4 hours ago, cheshire_red said:

Haven't seen any individual criticism or blame levelled at the players yet so that is hopefully one aspect of management learnt

Well, LJ did say on Radio Bristol in his post match interview that Joe Bryan "killed it for them", with his performance.

So I don't think he has learnt anything yet with regards to singling out individual players or their performance unfortunately.

This is particularly worrying as I thought we as a club wanted to keep hold of Joe and such comments are detrimental to that end.

 

[Davefevs]

16 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Paterson should have been taken off for sure, then we would have had a couple of options; Bring on GON to add another body and experienced head to CM to try and retain some possession, or bring on Maggers at LB and push Joe into left midfield. Get Brownhill playing more centrally too. If those changes don't result in Fammy seeing more of the ball, take him off and replace with Hinds or Eliasson - both who at least have the speed to possibly get onto the end of hurried clearances up field - Fammy does not.

 

 

 

 

Out of interest, if you bring on O'Neil for Paterson, how does the midfield line-up (with 4x natural CMs)?

14 hours ago, Psychopomp said:

The Championship is not a bonkers league, it is only defined by 3 points and the proximity of a 6 th place ( play off and seen as a success) and relegation(a disaster) , meaning third from bottom. Last year between 6th and 3rd bottom there were 29 points. The same comparison with L1 was also 29 points. In L2 it was much closer at 24 points (2nd from bottom, 26 points 3rd, bottom 2 relegated) .

Every league is the same, so can we stop this nonsense myth the Championship is something it is not. Every league is close due the fact 9 places are taken up with relegation and promotion positions so for the vast majority of teams in any one season, you are going to be close to one or the other almost constantly until the last group of games with a 3 points for a win scenario. Or put another way, last season, with ten games to go, a team who had 51 points would have been relegated if they lost ten in a row, or got in the play offs if they had won ten in a row. So for 30 games of the season you can have a silly argument that you are going to be relegated or be in the playoffs. what is clear, you want to get 50 points in the bag as soon as possible . 

City have 4 points in 3 games. You cannot draw any conclusions  August tends to start like that anyway, a bit hit and miss before sides get into the season. 

 From the outside he seems on track on a results basis for a mid table finish if you want to take 3 games in isolation. Lets see where we are first week of October. 16 points or so and all under control . Progress has to be shown  this season. There is no need to argue as fans, as the facts will be laid bare and excuses no longer an option. 

It's funny because things can change so quickly.

After 97 minutes we are looking at 3 pts from 3 games, and on a 2 game losing run.  However, getting that equaliser makes 4 from 3 look so much better.

Last season we were 6 pts from 4 games heading into the 5th match v Villa (synergies?).  Had we lost from 1-0 down it would've been P5 W2 L3 Pts6, yet we won and it became 5-3-2-9 and third place I think.

We could win the next two and be 5-3-1-1-10, yet could just as easily be 5-1-1-3-4 or maybe 5-1-2-2-5.  We are (being City) likely to lose to Millwall and beat Villa.

Difficult to form too much of an opinion, so I'll remain optimistic that we are heading for 12-16th ish!

[Jacki]

11 hours ago, robc said:

I was at the game last night and I think Ole's analysis is absolutely spot on. As Dean Smith said too, City were outclassed for most of the game and it was ludicrous for our manager to claim that we deserved a point. There were a few under-performers in our team but for the most part it was the formation that we played that was responsible.

It was obvious to all in my immediate circle as we sat watching the game that City were going to concede a goal given the amount of pressure that we were under, and it was a miracle that we got to the interval holding on to our lead. We all thought that Johnson would make changes at half time to address the fact that we were being overrun in midfield but not a bit of it. Instead the onslaught continued and only when we had conceded and looked ready to fold did he bring on his first subs. Whoever would have thought that Bobby Reid would be our lone striker for 10 minutes? Extraordinary as that was, we then an 18 year old making his debut to beef up our attack as we had by then gone 2-1 down. Credit to the boys that they equalised but only because Brentford retreated and got nervous. On another day, and without an inspired Frankie, despite his appalling distribution, we would have been thrashed.

For me, it was another completely clueless performance by the manager. As others have said, we still do not appear to have a Plan B. Lee J has never resolved the dilemma of how to play 3 in midfield. It cost us the services of Lee Tomlin in my view. I personally would have thought it was worthwhile considering playing 3-5-2 it at times away from home in particular especially given that we have now got 4 or 5 decent centre-backs.  I understand that the criticism of this system is that it leaves you vulnerable down the flanks but I've never understood why when you play 3-5-2 both wing backs have to be up field at the same time? Surely if only one goes forward, the remaining four defenders can adjust themselves across the pitch accordingly?

Whatever, unless our manager can find a way to organise the team to respond effectively against the sort of onslaught they faced last night I have no confidence at all that we are not in for another relegation fight. Lee Johnson must get a whole let better at responding to the game unfolding in front of him. Other managers seem a whole lot better at it - consider Redknapp against us.

Totally agree with this. It was as plain as day that we were getting completely overrun from 10 minutes in. There wave after wave of Brentford attacks and near misses, and it was nothing short of staggering that we hadn't conceded by half time. Like you, I was certain we would make a change at HT to counteract them, and when we didn't it was inevitable that they would score. I bet Brentford couldn't believe their luck when we came out unchanged  

I'm trying to stay neutral on LJ for now. He's the manager and at the end of last season he oversaw a run of results none of us saw coming under huge pressure. But he has to show some evidence that he's learnt from all of that, especially away from home where our record has been lamentable. Carry on producing performances like the other night on our travels and we'll find ourselves struggling once again. 

[Olé]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Make you right about a lack of Plans B & C however

One other point on the total lack of a plan B. I found myself frustrated at our pre-season fixture list which was extremely easy and had the feel of creating flat-track bullies out of the players. I didn't go to any of them, but can anyone comment on the extent to which we experimented with shape and tactics? I have an awful feeling (based simply on the quality of opposition most of the time) that we simply used it to vindicate Johnson's preferred pattern of play for this season.

Nothing wrong with deeply entrenching a style of play, but those games are also an opportunity to prepare your alternatives. More than that, what do you actually learn about playing your preferred tactics against easy sids? I'm sure I've read about really successful seasons for clubs borne out of the need for a complete adjustment in pre-season after a harsh lesson was learned. Losing is not something to make a habit of, but in pre-season sometimes it's more valuable than winning.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, Olé said:

One other point on the total lack of a plan B. I found myself frustrated at our pre-season fixture list which was extremely easy and had the feel of creating flat-track bullies out of the players. I didn't go to any of them, but can anyone comment on the extent to which we experimented with shape and tactics? I have an awful feeling (based simply on the quality of opposition most of the time) that we simply used it to vindicate Johnson's preferred pattern of play for this season.

Nothing wrong with deeply entrenching a style of play, but those games are also an opportunity to prepare your alternatives. More than that, what do you actually learn about playing your preferred tactics against easy sids? I'm sure I've read about really successful seasons for clubs borne out of the need for a complete adjustment in pre-season after a harsh lesson was learned. Losing is not something to make a habit of, but in pre-season sometimes it's more valuable than winning.

LJ has managed 227 professional matches mate. He will have been in the same 'match situation' many times over. No doubt when he was at Oldham and Barnsley there were situations where, like on Tuesday, he was watching his team get battered. If he hasn't learnt that he needs to change something in order to change the pattern of play by now; will he ever? We put in a poor display and got overrun by Brentford in April, same has happened (if not they were in fact more dominant on Tuesday) again. What did he learn from the performance in April? Why weren't we better prepared this time?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, Olé said:

One other point on the total lack of a plan B. I found myself frustrated at our pre-season fixture list which was extremely easy and had the feel of creating flat-track bullies out of the players. I didn't go to any of them, but can anyone comment on the extent to which we experimented with shape and tactics? I have an awful feeling (based simply on the quality of opposition most of the time) that we simply used it to vindicate Johnson's preferred pattern of play for this season.

Nothing wrong with deeply entrenching a style of play, but those games are also an opportunity to prepare your alternatives. More than that, what do you actually learn about playing your preferred tactics against easy sids? I'm sure I've read about really successful seasons for clubs borne out of the need for a complete adjustment in pre-season after a harsh lesson was learned. Losing is not something to make a habit of, but in pre-season sometimes it's more valuable than winning.

Fully agree. I didn't make any either but I suspect what you say is quite correct. Thought Twente could/should have been a decent test, but I don't know if they're as good as they were. I still think he should have or should start drilling them in a Plan A, Plan B type 11v11 in training. 1st half 2nd half type thing More than that, he should have done this in the summer.

I agree with the thrust though, more can definitely be learned in a loss vs strong opposition than FTB vs weak sides. LJ...seems too slow to react and as for proactive game management well none really exists.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fully agree.

I didn't make any either but I suspect what you say is quite correct. Thought Twente could/should have been a decent test, but I don't know if they're as good as they were.

I still think he should have or should start drilling them in a Plan A, Plan B type 11v11 in training. 1st half 2nd half type thing More than that, he should have done this in the summer.

I agree with the thrust though, more can definitely be learned in a loss vs strong opposition than FTB vs weak sides.

LJ...seems too slow to react and as for proactive game management well none really exists.

 

'Proactive game management'?  Wassat then?  Whatever happened to 11 v 11, jumpers for goalposts isn't it?

[1bristolcity]

It was a football match, they were at home desperate for points because they had lost two previously, we dropped back too deep in trying to defend a lead, that failed...they then dropped back too deep trying to defend a lead...that failed too. 

 

It was a game of football, nothing more nothing less.

[maxjak]

59 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

It was a football match, they were at home desperate for points because they had lost two previously, we dropped back too deep in trying to defend a lead, that failed...they then dropped back too deep trying to defend a lead...that failed too. 

 

It was a game of football, nothing more nothing less.

Sorry.........but thats just glib nonsense.  You obviously do  not grasp the point, that in depth analysis of every nuance and tactical adjustment is paramount to an understanding of LJ;s tactical game plan, he is the general who stands above the battle field ( Alright!! Dug Out), and tweaks, adjusts and deliberates every turn and shade of the games pattern............Yeah Right, if only!!?

[cheshire_red]

1 hour ago, 1bristolcity said:

It was a football match, they were at home desperate for points because they had lost two previously, we dropped back too deep in trying to defend a lead, that failed...they then dropped back too deep trying to defend a lead...that failed too. 

 

It was a game of football, nothing more nothing less.

So we might as well all just go up The Downs and pick any game of kick and rush to watch . How very simplistic, supporters pay hard cash to watch BCFC and therefore deserve a Manager/Head Coach who fits the job description. So far that isn't happening

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

12 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

So we might as well all just go up The Downs and pick any game of kick and rush to watch . How very simplistic, supporters pay hard cash to watch BCFC and therefore deserve a Manager/Head Coach who fits the job description. So far that isn't happening

I'm a supporter and I therefore pay hard cash to watch BCFC and I deserve to be entertained and so far this season I am being entertained.  Lee Johnson does fit the job description, and we will have to wait and see if he is a success.  If we progress this season, then he will have achieved that.  I think we have the most exciting squad at the Gate for years - possibly since the golden young team of the 1970s, so I'm struggling to see what he is doing wrong in broad terms.  Of course everyone can argue about his decisions on a day to day basis, all managers have to put up with that, but no issues about him fitting the job description as far as I can see.  City are playing a long game in terms of strategy, and unfortunately very many fans seem to only be able to assess progress one match at the time.  We can't compete with the big boys in terms of spending power, so we can't buy success, and what we are doing seems the right way to try to succeed, but it isn't going to happen overnight.

[cheshire_red]

Nobody is expecting it to happen overnight however the three transfer windows are nearly complete. Whether the squad is as good as any since the 70's is a matter of opinion and I don't share yours, yet. I'd suggest the squad which nearly gained promotion to the Prem was better. LJ has a long way to go until he fits my criteria of a good Head Coach / Manager and hasn't improved any since the day he walked in to the job.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

36 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

Nobody is expecting it to happen overnight however the three transfer windows are nearly complete. Whether the squad is as good as any since the 70's is a matter of opinion and I don't share yours, yet. I'd suggest the squad which nearly gained promotion to the Prem was better. LJ has a long way to go until he fits my criteria of a good Head Coach / Manager and hasn't improved any since the day he walked in to the job.

What, with a strike force of Enoch Showunmi, Darren Byfield and Lee Trundle?  A top scorer (Byfield) at the end of the season with eight goals?  The way he is going, Bobby could have that by mid-September!

Fair play to the squad of 2007/08 for having such a great run, but my god they didn't half over-achieve!

[cheshire_red]

Oh there were many weaknesses as there are now. Consider they finished far higher than we did last season or will do this season. And you're trying to convince me this side is better? I will concede the division is stronger now with far better players all round but if we finish top half with the side it is now and with LJ in charge I will be surprised

[jayjay]

Several have cast doubts on Mr Johnson having a Plan B. That is a gross calumny!

His Plan B is "Continue with Plan A".

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, cheshire_red said:

So we might as well all just go up The Downs and pick any game of kick and rush to watch . How very simplistic, supporters pay hard cash to watch BCFC and therefore deserve a Manager/Head Coach who fits the job description. So far that isn't happening

Ahh I see, the agenda against the Head Coach, not football is your real interest...well you are in good company on here, the same old cycle repeats itself, we win and all the LJ knockers report papering over the cracks, we grab a late draw and City fans are supposed to feel embarrassed by that and call out that they were robbed...this constant LJ knocking is getting tiresome, as a player he had it, as a coach he is still getting it, and as to why I don't for the life of me understand why?  Perhaps it's because he don't talk like us, he dress sense is not to everyone's liking, or the view that he didn't actually deserve to be in the team let alone manage us...because he is Gary's son.

I don't know what it is,  and I am pretty sure neither do you and the rest of those that rush to like every negative comment about the head coach, the team or anything Bristol City...to those I really wish you would just trot off and find something else to do/ 'support' because as sure as eggs are eggs you are not City.

 

 

[cheshire_red]

You've only seen what you want to see. Tunnel vision

[1bristolcity]

20 minutes ago, cheshire_red said:

You've only seen what you want to see. Tunnel vision

Then it's a long tunnel I have been on, I know our shortcomings, every team has them, but the real issues here is nothing to do with that, it's the vendetta against LJ, and still I wait for a reply that denies that or gives me sound reasons as to why that should be. 

[cheshire_red]

Vendetta? No not from me just a realist who has witnessed no improvement in tactics, man management, game planning or game management

[1bristolcity]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I'm a supporter and I therefore pay hard cash to watch BCFC and I deserve to be entertained and so far this season I am being entertained.  Lee Johnson does fit the job description, and we will have to wait and see if he is a success.  If we progress this season, then he will have achieved that.  I think we have the most exciting squad at the Gate for years - possibly since the golden young team of the 1970s, so I'm struggling to see what he is doing wrong in broad terms.  Of course everyone can argue about his decisions on a day to day basis, all managers have to put up with that, but no issues about him fitting the job description as far as I can see.  City are playing a long game in terms of strategy, and unfortunately very many fans seem to only be able to assess progress one match at the time.  We can't compete with the big boys in terms of spending power, so we can't buy success, and what we are doing seems the right way to try to succeed, but it isn't going to happen overnight.

They cannot give any credence to their stance, as you say he fits the bill perfectly, just need to keep evolving, and improving, besides he is going nowhere any time soon.