The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

Both can go …

I’d like more than 3 of those to go down

[Slippin cider]

Maybe they could have 3 go down and a relegation play off to go down 

[Mr Popodopolous]

A mischief maker/slight sceptic may wonder whether:

A) Nottingham Forest mentioning that compliance with PL limits is the priority

And

B) Fulham not making s formal accounts based statement about FFP as such

Is perhaps because the Football League or CFRU have not exactly given them the big full all clear yet.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

So why only the -6 points for Reading? 

Surely it should be -6 (suspended points) and then additional points for the latest offence?

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

So why only the -6 points for Reading? 

Surely it should be -6 (suspended points) and then additional points for the latest offence?

I think that depends on their end of season accounts…not sure this is over yet, but quite possible that points get deducted next season by the time it’s all done.

[W-S-M Seagull]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think that depends on their end of season accounts…not sure this is over yet, but quite possible that points get deducted next season by the time it’s all done.

I'd be hugely annoyed if I was one of the clubs who could potentially go down instead of Reading.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I'd be hugely annoyed if I was one of the clubs who could potentially go down instead of Reading.

It's given them a great boost judging by the forums. Huddersfield in particular given the last couple of wins.

I wonder if the nature of the breach and verdict makes a Peterborough claim v Reading less likely as it seemed to relate to this season rather than last. Peterborough 3rd bottom finished 4 points off.

A good read too, not yet read it myself but saw it on my timeline.

https://thetilehurstend.sbnation.com/2023/4/4/23669389/explained-reading-fc-latest-points-deduction-royals

[Mr Popodopolous]

41 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think that depends on their end of season accounts…not sure this is over yet, but quite possible that points get deducted next season by the time it’s all done.

They might be fine to this season due to this mysterious sale of an Investment provided it's completed at Fair Market Value.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

58 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's given them a great boost judging by the forums. Huddersfield in particular given the last couple of wins.

I wonder if the nature of the breach and verdict makes a Peterborough claim v Reading less likely as it seemed to relate to this season rather than last. Peterborough 3rd bottom finished 4 points off.

A good read too, not yet read it myself but saw it on my timeline.

https://thetilehurstend.sbnation.com/2023/4/4/23669389/explained-reading-fc-latest-points-deduction-royals

Worth reading Bowen’s open letter too.

https://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/2023/april/04/mark-bowen-an-open-letter-to-our-fans/

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

So why only the -6 points for Reading? 

Surely it should be -6 (suspended points) and then additional points for the latest offence?

Yes I thought so too on some levels, although it's a big step up from when they got a guilty verdict v Birmingham but no points when Adams not sold! That was not handled well by the League in 2019 but that crucial victory in technical terms if not deduction v Birmingham gave the League the right or a greater right and ability to enforce Business Plan wise.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/hull-city-acun-ilicali-ffp

Clearly they can't go big big again but given a) The excellent starting point and b) The £15-20m for Lewis-Potter surely well clear of it in the medium term??

West Brom accounts dropped at CH yesterday but they still haven't appeared yet- ie still processing, maybe tomorrow.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Someone on Ipswich Forum (TWTD) who gets it.  Posted some sensible stuff in various posts.

They have to go up this season imho.  They probably will too.

He posts elsewhere that Championship wages will rocket too, both demands from their existing players but also any new signings.  Plus they won’t be a big fish in the Champ either.

Other posters on their forum seem to think that the Arizona Pension Fund (Gamechanger) having $18bn means they can contribute to rack up the losses.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I suppose the question for Ipswich and agreed btw but the question is as for all newly promoted sides is a) To what extent can their current players step up to the level and b) Especially  mid 20s and below, to what extent can they grow both as players and into the higher level.

If they've already done a fair bit of heavy lifting squad wise then maybe. If a lot of rebuilding needed then FFP limits await.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I reported badly. West Brom post a loss despite:

Their wage flex on relegation, their Parachute Payments and the sale of players on relegation- bulk of it is Pereira IMO! £16.91m on Player sale Profit...income next year should be in the £20-25m bracket extrapolated from that if still at this level.

Otoh the loan is a one off and my or may not be FFP excludable?

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Someone on Ipswich Forum (TWTD) who gets it.  Posted some sensible stuff in various posts.

They have to go up this season imho.  They probably will too.

He posts elsewhere that Championship wages will rocket too, both demands from their existing players but also any new signings.  Plus they won’t be a big fish in the Champ either.

Other posters on their forum seem to think that the Arizona Pension Fund (Gamechanger) having $18bn means they can contribute to rack up the losses.

A certain Mr Ashton might think/hope the same?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Birmingham Maxco charges news.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/sanctions-set-to-be-announced-for-trio-involved-in-failed-birmingham-city-takeover/

Agreed Decision v Maxi Lopez, Paul Richardson and perhaps most nefarious Matt Southall. Moderate punishments.

The case v the club and Vong Pech still ongoing as neither have admitted culpability.

The big one, the investigation as to whether Wang Yaohui, aka Mr. King the Cambodian diplomat secretly owns and or controls the club and has since 2016- rolls on-- John Percy said charges are likely for this.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Estimates from the Fulham Analytica reckon that £9-10m within FFP to last season.

https://cottageanalytica.com/2023/04/05/fulham-financials-2021-22-part-1-did-fulham-breach-ffp-rules/

It's a good piece and I largely agree although £10m on Youth Academy, then again Aston Villa as a comparable is 8 figures or has been rising to such.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's astonishing that a club who have been in receipt of PL momey or Parachute Payments every year from 2002-03 to present- I know they lower in the past- are in that position.

Their cash reserves last year are abour £7m or so- the MSD loan which will appear in 2022-23 is £20m but loans need repaying of course and it's about 9 pct interest I thought I read.

What of the a) Cash Flow and b) The One year and beyond Debtors and Creditors. Well..

Edited April 6, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

Mr Lai has been using West Brom as his own personal bank/lender for a while now.

It's pretty awful what's going on there, and if he ever gets bored and decides to piss off then WBA will be in trouble. In that instance he would generally call in the loans, including all interest accrued, and according to the accounts WBA would not be able to pay unless they've sold enough players. That means pretty much immediate administration and possible liquidation unless either a) whoever Lai sells to agrees to cover the repayments - ie pays over the odds just to satisfy loans that Lai effectively made to himself and MSD, or b) Mr Lai writes of the loans (or converts the debt into shares if that's possible under their terms).

Lai holds that club by the proverbial bollocks, and is squeezing pretty damned hard.

https://www.actionforalbion.co.uk/ fans group trying to do something about it.

Edited April 6, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[downendcity]

That Premier League clubs are making pretty substantial losses despite the huge amounts of TV money they receive is proof, if we needed it, that football really is broken.

For a long time now the premier league has been seen as football's "promised land" where the riches of TV money will put a club onto a sound footing. Judging by figures that are coming out, it would appear that getting to the premier league can be the start of a club's problems, rather than the solution to them.

I read something early this week suggesting that, were Everton relegated then they would be more than likely to go out of business, such is the level of their financial problems.

Much as though none of us would want that for fans of another club ( even a Scouser club!), perhaps we have reached the point where it is only the complete failure of a major club, like Everton, that will bring football to it's senses, and realise that the madness of players' wages is unsustainable and that decisive action has to be taken.  

 

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, downendcity said:

That Premier League clubs are making pretty substantial losses despite the huge amounts of TV money they receive is proof, if we needed it, that football really is broken.

For a long time now the premier league has been seen as football's "promised land" where the riches of TV money will put a club onto a sound footing. Judging by figures that are coming out, it would appear that getting to the premier league can be the start of a club's problems, rather than the solution to them.

I read something early this week suggesting that, were Everton relegated then they would be more than likely to go out of business, such is the level of their financial problems.

Much as though none of us would want that for fans of another club ( even a Scouser club!), perhaps we have reached the point where it is only the complete failure of a major club, like Everton, that will bring football to it's senses, and realise that the madness of players' wages is unsustainable and that decisive action has to be taken.  

 

The Everton one is a strange one, sure I read that the owner is worth billions and billions, so they could - if they wanted to ensure the club were kept as a going concern, even if that meant incurring all manner of points deductions, embargos and sanctions.

Would they do that? No idea. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, downendcity said:

That Premier League clubs are making pretty substantial losses despite the huge amounts of TV money they receive is proof, if we needed it, that football really is broken.

For a long time now the premier league has been seen as football's "promised land" where the riches of TV money will put a club onto a sound footing. Judging by figures that are coming out, it would appear that getting to the premier league can be the start of a club's problems, rather than the solution to them.

I read something early this week suggesting that, were Everton relegated then they would be more than likely to go out of business, such is the level of their financial problems.

Much as though none of us would want that for fans of another club ( even a Scouser club!), perhaps we have reached the point where it is only the complete failure of a major club, like Everton, that will bring football to it's senses, and realise that the madness of players' wages is unsustainable and that decisive action has to be taken.  

 

Burnley were one, West Brom felt like one.

Burnley were fantastically run, built up their cash reserves etc- the Leveraged buyout has surely burnt through a good chunk of these.

Without it had they signed Collins, Cornet and others they maybe could have loaned some or all of them out to raise some cash and keep their PL or top flight hopes alive instead of their mini firesale. Pope, Collins, McNeil, Cornet- Mee and Tarkowski leave on frees. Keep Wood and sign Weghorst kinda thing. Some may leave outright relegation of course.

Brentford a £30m profit and paying down some debt could be one. Albeit as well as being brilliantly run their finances were helped by Benham.

Huddersfield and Sheffield United looked okay in some ways but despite one of the lower 

Norwich a model in many ways posted a loss an 8 figure one in the PL, in a min Covid year. £15m something like that.

Yeah the model is in many ways broken for sure.

[cityexile]

Not sure if it will impact FFP if they come down, but just seeing that Leeds have been ordered by FIFA to pay former player Jean Augustine £24.5m for breach of contract. Something they had tried to wriggle out of during Covid. That is on top of having to pay RB Leipzig £15.5m for him. Not bad for the 48 mins to played for them.

That has got to hurt their budget whatever, and if they do go down is a parachute payment gone just on that!

[Rob26]

On 06/04/2023 at 13:28, downendcity said:

That Premier League clubs are making pretty substantial losses despite the huge amounts of TV money they receive is proof, if we needed it, that football really is broken.

For a long time now the premier league has been seen as football's "promised land" where the riches of TV money will put a club onto a sound footing. Judging by figures that are coming out, it would appear that getting to the premier league can be the start of a club's problems, rather than the solution to them.

I read something early this week suggesting that, were Everton relegated then they would be more than likely to go out of business, such is the level of their financial problems.

Much as though none of us would want that for fans of another club ( even a Scouser club!), perhaps we have reached the point where it is only the complete failure of a major club, like Everton, that will bring football to it's senses, and realise that the madness of players' wages is unsustainable and that decisive action has to be taken.  

 

I don't think its broken, they are just owners who choose to run at a loss, a few clubs have shown you can make money, but its hard work and means you are not going to be competitive for the champions league places, bar the odd over performing exception once in a while. Lets face it alot of the billionaires who buy clubs do not have the skills, experience or patience to do it the slow burn way that the success stories from our league have had. 

but if this is to change the goverment or sport need to control everyone's spending and force them to come close to breaking even, I would personally over 10 years or more slowly roll back the amount all clubs are allowed to lose. 

some of these owners its pocket money to lose £100-200m a year, the governments missing a trick not letting them donate their money into our sport and country as long as the clubs debt or liabilities are not increased. I always feel they should be a mechanism that can be used for owners to buy players and put money in an account to cover any wages etc so these purchases can be excluded from FFP, and lets face it they are plenty of billionaires who would rather do this than put lawyers on the case looking for FFP loopholes what put them at risk if they turn out not to be loop holes and punishments are taken by the team and their fans also, and more money put into our game must be for the better for all the clubs as it trickles down, just put rules in place to push everyone to solvency as a whole, a bit closer every year so in 10 or 20 years time clubs are not losing money any more due to over spending 

 

[Rob26]

40 minutes ago, cityexile said:

Not sure if it will impact FFP if they come down, but just seeing that Leeds have been ordered by FIFA to pay former player Jean Augustine £24.5m for breach of contract. Something they had tried to wriggle out of during Covid. That is on top of having to pay RB Leipzig £15.5m for him. Not bad for the 48 mins to played for them.

That has got to hurt their budget whatever, and if they do go down is a parachute payment gone just on that!

i hate leeds, but their attempt at a get out on that transfer was laughable saying the deadline for promotion had been passed by the season getting extended :laugh:, worth a try I suppose, but think of the knock on effect it would of had on every other players contract and transfer that had end of season date based clauses when the season was extended due to covid, loads of claims would of no doubt followed it with clubs wanting to reverse it. Guess the lesson learnt is not to loan players with obligations to buy unless you definitely want to buy them.

40m down the drain, and I think at least 30m if the appeal is some what successful :laugh:

and the player got a free transfer due to them trying to get out the deal, so they didn't even have any scope to pull back several millions with a sale to someone else :laugh:, imagine making bank from a free transfer and then getting a 25m contract paid out in full to you also :laugh:

[Bristol Rob]

https://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/southampton-owner-dragan-solak-facing-massive-loan-repayment-4453533

Don't see that necessarily going according to plan.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Based on the Sala verdict this order to pay the Augustin verdict seems odd on the face of it. Cardiff e.g. ordered to pay fee but not wages- suppose it depends on the precise terms of contracts.

Nottingham Forest v Lamouchi was also at the CAS last year- nothing reported on that yet! Wonder if they tried to get out of paying him for FFP reasons.

In terms of FFP, one off hit or amortised over the term of the deal? Makes a difference- but another factor to consider with Leeds is that big survival bonuses appear to be included in their total wages so if hey drop that is actually a potential cost saving obviously prior to the Augustin verdict- presumably they would have relegation wage reduction clauses on relegation too.

According to their accounts:

Edited April 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's not the Championship, it's not even England but reports that PSG are in the clear on FFP, the change in system seemed to save them combined with Covid.

They accelerated some of Mbappe's new deal into 2021-22 and had quite the exodus this season but for losses pre tax, pre adjustments of €124m, €224m and €369m- the first two of those were €124m and €224m therefore averaged out at €174m and then €369m last season! 

Anyway according to reports accelerating Mbappe's deal into last season or some of it has helped to smooth certain issues. Their income has also risen to €800m..

It mentions CVC, dunno if it is like Barcelona the sale of some future rights etc. Could be a Ligue 1 type deal.

The new Upper Loss Limit is €60m at UEFA level, €90m if all well and UEFA appear as I assume with other clubs under a Business Plan reset it wholly which means €60m the new targets...they were due to pay €65m if targets not met.

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/psg-big-summer-transfer-spending-avoiding-financial-fair-play-sanctions/blta0857fd390d111b9

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2023/psg-set-to-stay-within-ffp-restrictions-ahead-of-transfer-window/

Genuinely the spawniest and most egregious anywhere. They actively pushed the limits during Covid and have accelerated to compliance via the new system,  'big bathing' some of their losses into the €30m 3 year limit to 2022 wirh fine and Business Plan thereby bringing some of Mbappe's wage costs out of future seasons.

They made as per Transfermarkt €147.5m gross in additions in summer 2022 btw, barely a summer of austerity.

Edit just re-read. They can lose €60m this year provided that they break even in each of the following 2 years. The 90-80-70 wage and amortisation stuff should also be interesting.

To break even, assuming an income of €800m as reported they would still need a combination of transfer profits and cost cutting of some €213m in 2022-23, their reported income was €654m in 2021-22. Sorry that would be for next sesson and beyond.

Costs add €1 per added cost to that, income or transfer profit subtracts €1 per added cost. Seems very generous however.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous