The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Here are some bits that I don't get about Stoke and some others. I have covered before but a bit more sketchily.

The term is crystal clear here in respect of losses that are directly attributable.

Surely the losses or types of losses that I outlined are or should be indirect and therefore de facto the default position should be that if exclusion of these tips a club into default ie exceeding of FFP then a referral is the only sensible solution. If it means 4 or 5 clubs get referred across the periods ending 2021, 2022 or 2023 then so be it!

I don't see how Player Impairment or hypothetical Transfer Profits with resultant hypothetical wage and amortisation savings foregone can be seen as anything other than speculative. An IDC should decide these issues but it's not directly attributable I believe.

If losses caused by Season tickets, Gate Receipts, TV rebates, Commercial and Corporate Income et  exceed £5m, £5m and £2.5m aggregated by all means that seems to be somewhat provable.

Again I don't care if auditors or experts have signed off the transfer stuff, all such transactions and especially if material to P&S should be referred I believe.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Come on in Wolves, the water is lovely.

https://www.molineux.news/news/wolves-currently-cannot-afford-to-take-up-two-year-option-on-nelson-semedo/

Granted they are staying up but they may yet have FFP issues on the horizon.

[Bristol Rob]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Come on in Wolves, the water is lovely.

https://www.molineux.news/news/wolves-currently-cannot-afford-to-take-up-two-year-option-on-nelson-semedo/

Granted they are staying up but they may yet have FFP issues on the horizon.

One less club for Alex Scott to consider.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

One less club for Alex Scott to consider.

Their fans don't seem too concerned at this stage. Could be that they are operating at the non equity lower level in which case all FOSUN need to do is stick some equity in and problem solved for now.

[chinapig]

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Their fans don't seem too concerned at this stage. Could be that they are operating at the non equity lower level in which case all FOSUN need to do is stick some equity in and problem solved for now.

And I would expect a fair few players to leave Wolves this summer. Lopetegui has made it pretty clear he wants money to spend.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, chinapig said:

And I would expect a fair few players to leave Wolves this summer. Lopetegui has made it pretty clear he wants money to spend.

Neves often seems to be linked with a bit move away. He's an obvious candidate.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Jobe Bellingham to Sunderland for £3m will ease the concerns for a bit for Birmingham and give them a bit to spend probably as his brothers sell on comes in.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting! Commendable too.

Preston owner has spoken of their accounts for THIS season. Pre depreciation and amortisation losses down to £11m, will try and extrapolate from there. Possibly their pre tax losses maybe in the £14-16m range.

https://www.lep.co.uk/sport/football/preston-north-end/preston-north-end-chairman-pens-lengthy-club-update-on-transfers-sustainability-ffp-last-season-next-season-and-even-the-roof-4147716

Managing expectations a bit but also anticipates that some more clubs face sanctions in the following season. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Jobe Bellingham to Sunderland for £3m will ease the concerns for a bit for Birmingham and give them a bit to spend probably as his brothers sell on comes in.

Its not a big sell on supposedly, they'll get a bit but how much of that is needed to cover costs will be the thing

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Its not a big sell on supposedly, they'll get a bit but how much of that is needed to cover costs will be the thing

Read 15 pct of profit.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Mixed messages.. 

Wolves have seemingly triggered a Semedo extension but also the manager said the FFP issues weren't exactly explained to him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65640344

They're more than likely fine to 2023 it is to 2024 where it could get more interesting.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Could be linked to the equity considerations I guess although Swiss seems.to think that is fine. Although the new starting point will also be a £46m pre tax loss last season, Wolves that is. This is Swiss Ramble and the numbers up to 2021. 2022 will be behind the subscription based Substack but allowable costs won't be too different IMO.

[Ronnie Sinclair]

Wigan will start next season on -4 points after another late payroll 

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Ronnie Sinclair said:

Wigan will start next season on -4 points after another late payroll 

Could be worse if they don’t make this month’s either.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Could be worse if they don’t make this month’s either.

Or any of the next eleven. Definitely a further 4 point deduction before too long.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Nothing official but an interesting snippet about the challenge facing Blackburn. Caveat the author has not seemingly factored in the probable cost of academy or other easier to find areas. They do have a Category One Academy iirc.

https://brfcs.com/magazine/articles/profit-and-sustainability-and-the-top-six/411

 

[chinapig]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nothing official but an interesting snippet about the challenge facing Blackburn. Caveat the author has not seemingly factored in the probable cost of academy or other easier to find areas. They do have a Category One Academy iirc.

https://brfcs.com/magazine/articles/profit-and-sustainability-and-the-top-six/411

 

Not a bad attempt but it does rather show they should have sold Brereton-Diaz when they had the chance.

And I rather doubt that Jay is on £8k a week.

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nothing official but an interesting snippet about the challenge facing Blackburn. Caveat the author has not seemingly factored in the probable cost of academy or other easier to find areas. They do have a Category One Academy iirc.

https://brfcs.com/magazine/articles/profit-and-sustainability-and-the-top-six/411

 

Think it goes to show how you can suffer from seeing valuable assets like BBD leave on a free.  We’ve been there with Diedhiou, etc.  As @chinapig says, they should’ve got rid of him when there was opportunity too.  Maybe we should’ve pushed harder with Massengo.

Blackburn do have a good academy and are probably second to us in terms of players regularly in their match day squad.  That may be their saving grace going forward.

I also think they’ve got a bit more wiggle room than he thinks, as you suggest, lots of allowables that can come off.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not fully FFP related but.

Juventus January or December can't recall were docked 15 points.

Overturned on Appeal or maybe a rehearing ordered but tonight the new verdict is out.

10 point deduction! Down to 6th.

I am interested as to why other Leagues can hand done deductions more quickly even accounting for an appeal far quicker than here and especially to big hitters. Thinking of the PL here, is Juventus being publicly listed something to do with it, surely Juventus have strong lawyers.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not fully FFP related but.

Juventus January or December can't recall were docked 15 points.

Overturned on Appeal or maybe a rehearing ordered but tonight the new verdict is out.

10 point deduction! Down to 6th.

I am interested as to why other Leagues can hand done deductions more quickly even accounting for an appeal far quicker than here and especially to big hitters. Thinking of the PL here, is Juventus being publicly listed something to do with it, surely Juventus have strong lawyers.

Where there's a will there's a way. The Premier League has only discovered some will now an independent regulator is on the horizon.

Since Manchester City claim they have irrefutable evidence of their innocence convene the independent commission now and let them present that evidence. Though if they are so sure of their case why are they taking legal action to try to stop the action?

Expect the case to go on for years in the hope that people will forget about it or alternatively expect an inadequate punishment if they are found guilty.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Where there's a will there's a way. The Premier League has only discovered some will now an independent regulator is on the horizon.

Since Manchester City claim they have irrefutable evidence of their innocence convene the independent commission now and let them present that evidence. Though if they are so sure of their case why are they taking legal action to try to stop the action?

Expect the case to go on for years in the hope that people will forget about it or alternatively expect an inadequate punishment if they are found guilty.

 

It's funny really part of me has a small violin here because the clubs vote in, they were happy to obfuscate.

They were happy to obstruct EFL attempts to enforce justice for years or even to allow the Football League, somewhat inept and flawed though the leadership was especially under Harvey. Not all clubs of course.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-finances-man-city-everton-b2343676.html

[Mr Popodopolous]

I query his point on Everton because thete is supposed to be some mechanism whereby disougrs or ongoing Investigations are handed over in the event if promotion or relegation. Came in this season.

Would be rather incongruous if the Investigation could he handed over to the other body but the sanction of say a points deduction would not apply until such time as the club came back up.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Blackburn have basically said that due to FFP they cannot pay out fees without selling first. Can keep the same wage budget however.

https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/transfer-news/blackburn-rovers-transfer-budget-revealed-26942137

Funny how quickly it can come around. Category One Academy, only £11m in pre tax losses in 2021-22 before allowances deducted further I'm slightly surprised they're that far along the road already.

It makes the Stoke £59-60m in Covid offsetting look all the more incongruous and egregious tbh especially if the latter go big this summer.

Yes I know Bursik, Souttar, Collins and Collins sell on but the shifting of amortisation to Covid remains a cynical disgrace.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Blackburn have basically said that due to FFP they cannot pay out fees without selling first. Can keep the same wage budget however.

https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/transfer-news/blackburn-rovers-transfer-budget-revealed-26942137

Funny how quickly it can come around. Category One Academy, only £11m in pre tax losses in 2021-22 before allowances deducted further I'm slightly surprised they're that far along the road already.

It makes the Stoke £59-60m in Covid offsetting look all the more incongruous and egregious tbh especially if the latter go big this summer.

Yes I know Bursik, Souttar, Collins and Collins sell on but the shifting of amortisation to Covid remains a cynical disgrace.

Maybe their owners don’t want to support the full £13m ffp allowance by funding £8m p.a?  Kieran Maguire made that exact point on a recent pod.  One team’s £39m might be another team’s £15m!!

Also, not the worst tactic to plead poverty coming into a window…although that can work both ways.

“We are looking at loans. All teams in the Championship are reliant on Premier League loans”
 

Not all Greg!!!

Edited May 23, 2023 by Davefevs

[Merrick's Marvels]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Blackburn have basically said that due to FFP they cannot pay out fees without selling first. Can keep the same wage budget however.

https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/transfer-news/blackburn-rovers-transfer-budget-revealed-26942137

Funny how quickly it can come around. Category One Academy, only £11m in pre tax losses in 2021-22 before allowances deducted further I'm slightly surprised they're that far along the road already.

It makes the Stoke £59-60m in Covid offsetting look all the more incongruous and egregious tbh especially if the latter go big this summer.

Yes I know Bursik, Souttar, Collins and Collins sell on but the shifting of amortisation to Covid remains a cynical disgrace.

 

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe their owners don’t want to support the full £13m ffp allowance by funding £8m p.a?  Kieran Maguire made that exact point on a recent pod.  One team’s £39m might be another team’s £15m!!

Also, not the worst tactic to plead poverty coming into a window…although that can work both ways.

 

In that article, the Blackburn DoF talks about a "proposal from the Football Association to change the GBE points total. If that happens, we don't know if it will, that would give us a free hand to sign players from anywhere in the world which would be huge for a club like Blackburn Rovers"

Anyone got more detail about that?

The Blackburn fella also says "All teams in the Championship are reliant on Premier League loans"

Wrong!

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

 

 

In that article, the Blackburn DoF talks about a "proposal from the Football Association to change the GBE points total. If that happens, we don't know if it will, that would give us a free hand to sign players from anywhere in the world which would be huge for a club like Blackburn Rovers"

Anyone got more detail about that?

The Blackburn fella also says "All teams in the Championship are reliant on Premier League loans"

Wrong!

Yes, talk of allowing a number of signing from abroad to be allowed regardless of the points system.  One suggestion was a maximum of 4 (I assume per season), dependent on how many minutes were played by homegrown players.  The more homegrown minutes the more “foreigners” you could bring in, without needing a WP.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not specifically FFP and certainly not Championship but Man United that bastion of Profit and Sustainably pre Glazers seem not to he as affected as they should be.

AFAIK Dividends and Interest if through Profit and Loss aren't excluded from FFP. Linked with Rice for £69m today.

Pre Tax Losses

2019-20 -£20,818,000

2020-21 -£24,027,000

Combined average-£22,422,500

2021-22 -£149,623,000

Yes I know Covid for the first two of these as well as some one off costs.

*First 6 months 2022-23 -£25,115,000.

PL adjusted loss limit is -£105m in a 3 year period..yes Covid across the first two and allowable costs but to 2023-24...might they even need to offload by end of reporting Period- ie end of June 2023.

Perhaps they can kick it down the road a bit, should he fine to this season but when the near £150m pre tax loss is the starting point??

Edited May 25, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I know I bang on about them. PSG though. Wages up by €226m, Amortisation €5.2m, Agents Fees €10.9m..it's a shame SwissRamble behind a paywall these days (Substack) as his analysis as to why they have no FFP issues just yet would be really interesting to see.

€375.4m

€224.9m

Halve the 2nd of these and aggregate it to half if the €124m loss in 2019-20.

Apart from the Player Sale Profit increase there was no effort to reign it in and rebalance the books. PSG Handball and Judo wages will be excluded of course but I very much doubt it is material to their €30m adjusted loss limit to 2022.

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I know I bang on about them. PSG though. Wages up by €226m, Amortisation €5.2m, Agents Fees €10.9m..it's a shame SwissRamble behind a paywall these days (Substack) as his analysis as to why they have no FFP issues just yet would be really interesting to see.

€375.4m

€224.9m

Halve the 2nd of these and aggregate it to half if the €124m loss in 2019-20.

Apart from the Player Sale Profit increase there was no effort to reign it in and rebalance the books. PSG Handball and Judo wages will be excluded of course but I very much doubt it is material to their €30m adjusted loss limit to 2022.

Nasser Al-Khelaifi is the PSG president, president of the European Club Association, a member of the executive committee of UEFA and chairman of beINSports.

The last time they breached FFP they were fined a puny €30m with €20m suspended.

I'm sure these things are entirely unrelated.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Nasser Al-Khelaifi is the PSG president, president of the European Club Association, a member of the executive committee of UEFA and chairman of beINSports.

The last time they breached FFP they were fined a puny €30m with €20m suspended.

I'm sure these things are entirely unrelated.

Yeah yeah there's that, it's a shame.

I really hope PSG in particular but not just them, get their comeuppance or at least power and prestige reduced somewhat in the coming years via FFP.