Desire / Determination - Fleming post-match

[GrahamC]

14 minutes ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

[Will Rollason]

Just now, samo II said:

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

It's the sort of thing that plays on your mind. It also transmits to the players. Barnsley the other day for instance, how we managed to win that is beyond me

[Fpcity]

He look very pissed off which is good. Can just imagine him giving the players an ear full in that Irish accent! 

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You are talking about confidence not motivation. Professional footballers really shouldn't need much in the way of motivation put into them. Too many people make excuses for players and pin everything on Managers. The individual mistakes we saw today are on the players, nobody else.

Footballers are a weird species in that many of them take £20K per week out of their Employer and then hide behind the Manager when they fail to do what they have been asked to do.

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

[samo II]

3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

Yeah you’re likely right.

Truth be; I am just sick of seeing the same line up and the same outcomes.

I guess at least we lost in a different way today (against ten men) but it’s soul crushing.

Same with not know what the plan is.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

I am not defending today but I do think a team with Baker and Atkinson at centre back and a midfield of Williams, James and King would have beaten the line up we put our today. Players are missing. That is certainly not the sole issue but it does not help either.

[Supersonic Robin]

6 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Think a fair few of Baker, Atkinson, James, King and Williams could expect to start and as a min would strengthen the bench. When we’ve had some/most/all (?) of them playing, we haven’t looked amazing, but have looked more solid. If the international break allows a few to come back, that would help a lot.
 

A small squad resulting from FFP and some big wage earners that I’m sure we’d love to move on, does leave us in a precarious position. If we could get a couple out (seems unlikely, who would want them?) and a couple in (feasible if loans?) in Jan, we’ve a decent chance of staying up. Then further adjustments in the summer and some of the more promising younger players having had championship experience, maybe we move forward in 22/23. Difficult times though. 

[Ostrich]

9 minutes ago, HappyClapper said:

Anyone who’s ever played the game has played against 10 men and understand the need to control possession and move them around and hopefully make gaps and tire the opponents. This has nothing to do with coaching

It is to do with coaching. You’ve got the 4th lowest pass completion in the division, have the 3rd lowest average possession, the 5th lowest number of completed short passes, the 5th highest number of incomplete short passes. A team that isn’t used to passing, having the ball and isn’t very good at passing it isn’t suddenly going to become able to do it even against 10 men. It’s compounded today by the fact there’s not a leader in midfield, I think Matty James would have helped somewhat.

It’s not the only issue, nor do you need to play that way if you’re ahead but the fact that your passing and possession stats are dire, and they’ve got worse as the season has gone on is the responsibility of the coaches. You can play different ways but there’s nowhere to hide if you don’t play any way well.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

Fair enough and, as you correctly state, I've been lucky enough not to have my confidence shattered in the workplace but I'll ask you this:

Do you think the mistakes made by Vyner, Kalas, Bentley and Massengo today were just plain individual mistakes or lapses in concentration where the players simply should have done better or down to underlying issues caused by the coaching staff? I cannot fathom how anything Curtis Fleming did or didn't say before the game caused those moments to happen.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

38 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

to be fair I also think it's an individuals job to motivate themselves. If the players need a Psychologist...get one in, but not just shrug their collective shoulders and say its down to the players

[Malago]

8 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

Agree totally about Wells substituíon.  Did he actually touch the ball?  COD is short of match fitness and should have been hooked after 60 minutes.

We subbed two of our best players, Scott and Pring.  Why?

Finally Jay Dasilva needs a rocket  up his derriere.  If there’s one player who typifies the lack of guts and will to win, it’s him.

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I am not defending today but I do think a team with Baker and Atkinson at centre back and a midfield of Williams, James and King would have beaten the line up we put our today. Players are missing. That is certainly not the sole issue but it does not help either.

Absolutely so.

I am prepared to give Pearson time but his rationale for running with a small squad was we would keep more players fit under Rennie & so today when we are missing 2 centre backs & 3 senior midfielders that plan falls flat when you can’t even get a draw v ten men.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Fair enough and, as you correctly state, I've been lucky enough not to have my confidence shattered in the workplace but I'll ask you this:

Do you think the mistakes made by Vyner, Kalas, Bentley and Massengo today were just plain individual mistakes or lapses in concentration where the players simply should have done better or down to underlying issues caused by the coaching staff? I cannot fathom how anything Curtis Fleming did or didn't say before the game caused those moments to happen.

I think a lot comes down to confidence in the players around you. I think our players expect others around them to make mistakes, move to anticipate those and that means they leave gaps or move into positions that would not happen if they trusted others to get it right. Which leads to an increased number of errors.

[Tin Soldier]

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Agreed, there is a weak underbelly within this side. No determination, no desire, noone prepared to stand up and be counted. Quite frankly, one of the worst City teams in years. 
Shockingly awful. 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Well the instructions I think are the problem.

How poor was that from the beginning of the 2nd half. I might be wrong but probably not the best half time instructions.

Does Kalas need instruction not to head the ball downwards to the edge of the box when he's under no pressure at all? Does Massengo need to be told that if a player is running off him into a dangerous area and nobody else is covering he needs to get on his bike and cover it? It's easy to say what the Manager should and shouldn't have done but players not doing the absolute basics of football correctly get a free ride. Why?

Too many people over complicate football. Yes there are tactics and shape to work on but at the end of the day players have basic tasks they have to carry out in EVERY game they play regardless of the formation, irrespective of the defensive shape, whatever the instructions - too many of ours didn't do it today, it's not rocket science.

[Waconda]

19 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

Exactly.

 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think a lot comes down to confidence in the players around you. I think our players expect others around them to make mistakes, move to anticipate those and that means they leave gaps or move into positions that would not happen if they trusted others to get it right. Which leads to an increased number of errors.

Over a period of time, yes. But TODAY the first goal was a poor decision by Vyner, the second goal was THREE different and basic mistakes from a corner. Nothing related to covering gaps and getting dragged out of position to cover others. That is unforgivable AND inexcusable on the players part. The third goal was simply Massengo falling asleep at the wheel. Nothing anyone can do about that apart from not picking players who fall asleep at the wheel when it matters.

[redrob]

50 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Short termism approach. If players cannot get motivated they need to be moved on (easier said than done I know). 

I see a group who are storming. There are clearly players calling es h other out. Long term (if we can wait that long) they'll be a better group for this hard run.

[HappyClapper]

6 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

It is to do with coaching. You’ve got the 4th lowest pass completion in the division, have the 3rd lowest average possession, the 5th lowest number of completed short passes, the 5th highest number of incomplete short passes. A team that isn’t used to passing, having the ball and isn’t very good at passing it isn’t suddenly going to become able to do it even against 10 men. It’s compounded today by the fact there’s not a leader in midfield, I think Matty James would have helped somewhat.

It’s not the only issue, nor do you need to play that way if you’re ahead but the fact that your passing and possession stats are dire, and they’ve got worse as the season has gone on is the responsibility of the coaches. You can play different ways but there’s nowhere to hide if you don’t play any way well.

You have made some good points, and I get your rationale. I’m just furious at the idea that we can’t control the game v10 and end up conceding 3 goals. I get that our stats are poor, but I’m not prepared to blame the coaches and let the players off the hook after that second half. We have capitulated so many times, that is not due to coaching or shape or anything other than professionalism, desire and commitment. 3 things that many of our players lack. We lack leaders and players willing to take responsibility on the pitch. They all seem to be looking to someone else. Pearson’s MO seems to be to designed to find out who is capable of what he wants,(who’s on the bus) and then to ship those out who don’t pass muster. The rot at our club is so deep that he has found that he has very few worth keeping. 

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

Weak players.

[Waconda]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

Weak players.

Combined with weak coaching = Relegation.

[HappyClapper]

6 minutes ago, redrob said:

Short termism approach. If players cannot get motivated they need to be moved on (easier said than done I know). 

I see a group who are storming. There are clearly players calling es h other out. Long term (if we can wait that long) they'll be a better group for this hard run.

Good point. Let’s hope that there are players calling each other out. We need leaders on the pitch. Not all leaders are born, but they can be made by being given opportunities to show leadership and developing. I’m hoping some of our younger players have the confidence to call out the more experienced members of the squad.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Well the instructions I think are the problem.

How poor was that from the beginning of the 2nd half. I might be wrong but probably not the best half time instructions.

Quite simply….you cannot put that down to “not the best ht instructions”.  Did Curtis instruct to play with less organisational discipline and effort than first?  No!

[The Swan and Cemetery]

56 minutes ago, samo II said:

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

The nature of their winner is really disappointing and strongly indicates lack of intrinsic ability to deliver commitment/effort. It wasn’t a punt into the box with their goalkeeper up, a series of ricochets and a lucky deflection… it was a 5-a-side canter, with their players running with the ball and off the ball, whilst no one made an effort to get near them. I doubt any of our players consciously thought “I can’t be arsed”, more an indication that not enough are hard wired to push themselves to the absolute limit for the cause. 

[Roger Red Hat]

just to cheer everyone up. I don't think it was posted about BCFC!

 

[Supersonic Robin]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

 

1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Couldn’t agree more - tactics, set up and so on, fair enough to call out manager and coaching team. But desire/effort, if someone needs someone else to do that for them, when they’re earning potloads compared to the average person, there’s something badly wrong with them. Have some pride. Care about doing your best for the supporters travelling and paying their hard earned cash. 

 

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Red white and red said:

Why? Like he would even be remotely bothered about another implosion.

You maybe right. But it was worth a shot. What’s the weather like in the Caribbean right now?

[Davefevs]

Just now, Supersonic Robin said:

 

 

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

Exactly, it’s bollocks….it’s rhetoric to suit a changing personal opinion that Pearson isn’t the man.  It’s all about trying to justify that change.

Easier to say, “I no longer think Nige is the man” than guesswork about motivation, half-time instruction, training ground dribbling discouraged etc, but when asked have no evidence for those comments, just personal opinion.

There is no harm in changing minds….I think it’s healthy to review, reflect and if you think it’s different, change your mind.

[Pezo]

Once again the coaching staff get it, they see it. No excuses from them, I like that. But for me it's once too many times seeing all the problems with zero reaction from the players.

Why aren't the players responding to coaching staff? I can only think its ability.