Team and Tactics for Blackburn

[Lew-T]

27 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

I watched the highlights of wins at QPR & Reading in previous seasons you had Ashley Williams, Kalas, Baker all throwing themselves into challenges & blocks.

We need this from those in front of the defence too.

The 3rd goal at Birmingham was even worse, both Bakinson & HNM put in half hearted attempts to dispossess Gardner, a terrible effort.

And not forgetting Vyner’s marking in the box….

Embarrassing stuff.

[Super]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

Keeping our full backs wider to prevent the crosses and getting our midfielders to stop the supply to opposing wingers thereby forcing the opposition to play the way we want them to. I played extensively at full back in my youth and I never allowed my winger the time to control it , look up , and measure his cross the way ours do.

We need to play out from the back keeping the ball on the ground. We don't have enough height to play the long high ball game.

All easy to say I know but with our team it appears hard to execute. 

Problem is neither Tanner or JD are very good defenders and better attacking.

[Henry]

Knowing City, we’d park the bus in front of their goal, rather than ours.

[sludge]

3 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

I think sorting out the defensive fragility is probably the first step in arresting our poor form. This was one of my main expectations of Pearson for this season - I anticipated that we may be rather lacklustre going forward, but felt we could at least make ourselves difficult to beat/score against.

FWIW I don't have any issue with 'defensive football' if that's what it takes. Many fans talk about "just wanting to see some exciting attacking football", but IMO the main source of excitement is competitiveness. I'll happily sit there for 90 minutes watching us defend competently, resiliently, and bravely to grind out points.

At the moment I just want to see a team that looks like they're up for it! No shirking tackles, no poor body language. I just want some effort and commitment. If we get beat, but the opposition's had to work their nuts off for it then I can live with that.

Just sick to the back teeth of these limp performances where opponents walk off the pitch thinking what a soft touch we are.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

From his interview, That's the message I got. I could well be wrong.

A collective desire to keep the ball out of our net, we've not kept enough clean sheets which always gives us a problem," Pearson said.

"We're not working hard enough to stay in games. Win or lose games is how it’s going and we’re losing too many. We’re not slugging out for scruffy wins and not slugging out for scruffy draws."

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

1 hour ago, cityloyal473 said:

The problem with parking the bus is once the brake comes off (a Cov goal) we have no way of putting it back on. Lets have a go and lose instead of losing while being totally passive. 

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

8 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

And not forgetting Vyner’s marking in the box….

Embarrassing stuff.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

[Shuffle]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Nothing against you here Shuffle - yet when others state how “quality” our squad is and the fact that Pearson should be getting a better tune out of it (which I agree with in some instances) and then we potentially have Vyner at centre midfield I find it laughable. Vyner wouldn’t get in most sides as defender let alone as a midfielder. That shows where we are and the reality of the “quality” within in both our first 11 and squad. 

Suppose with the absence of King,James,Williams it was a choice of  Vyner or Bakinson And I ain’t having Tyreeq as a player at all. Your right though it’s poor quality for the championship 

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Going back to Blackpool I think it shows how much great coaching can do for a team. Little experience at this level, not only are they picking up points, they're doing so taking risks and having a go. But I certainly wouldn't want to swap squads of players.

Firstly agree with the whole of the post.  Critchley doing really well.  Had a slow start last season but then then really got going.

They are building on that momentum, recruiting well, and showing the benefits of patience.  A series of mid-table finishes as they recovered from the Oyston era, but what appears to be a great appointment in Critchley.

[054123]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

If recent history is anything to go by, so do our Managers 

If recent history is anything to go by so does our owner.

[WessexPest]

I seriously hope not - it would be a cretinous strategy; we can’t defend and it took every sinew to keep a poor Barnsley side out of our net last week.

Let’s show a bit of attacking intent for once and give the big following we are taking to the Ricoh something to get excited about  - we don’t look like turning possession into chances currently, let alone chances into goals.

Park the bus up your bum.

[Lew-T]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

Fair shout mate, you’ve prepared for a Vyner bashing

In all seriousness, looking at it like that in stages you could argue TK or Zak need to communicate with Atkinson, as they’ve got a better view.

Either way, it’s so soft.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Fair shout mate, you’ve prepared for a Vyner bashing

In all seriousness, looking at it like that in stages you could argue TK or Zak need to communicate with Atkinson, as they’ve got a better view.

Either way, it’s so soft.

Crap goal. 100%.

Agree, would love to know the comms that go on between players.  I see poor examples of “passing on” markers all the time.  Talking (shouting!) was a big part of my own game, and when I played with better players at Bris and Odd Down the chat was constant between the defence, especially keeper and centre backs.

[sludge]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

He seems to be a very clever manager.

I don't watch much prem football, but I remember him having a Liverpool team of kids playing superbly well against a senior Villa side in the cup. Klopp gave him the job for the league cup games I think.

They got thrashed I think, but the defence were far too weak to be able to cope and keeper bit too young and dodgy. The power of the experienced Villa players would always win that game, but they got out passed by a bunch of kids.

Looking at the passing and patterns of play, no doubt they had some good technical players playing too, but I'm not sure how many of them would even make it at that high a level. Harvey Eliott the only one I remember as obviously being really special.

Herbie Kane was one of the players. It just looked like mainly great coaching playing the game the right way with a much worse bunch of players than the opponents.

The Blackpool game against us he impressed me too the way they knocked it about. They weren't coming here to fight for a point, they had a go for all 3. We maybe should have scored more first half and then maybe we win the game.

What impressed me most was how Critchley must have watched that first half and knew how to improve things.

We didn't really create anything and they created quite a few chances and eventually took one. I thought they had control in that 2nd half. 

10th in the league is a fantastic achievement so far.

Can you just imagine the uproar on here if we ever appointed someone like that?! Sometimes I think we're our own worst enemies....

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The Blackpool game against us he impressed me too the way they knocked it about. They weren't coming here to fight for a point, they had a go for all 3. We maybe should have scored more first half and then maybe we win the game.

I don’t think they knocked it around well at all.  They struggled to break through our front-line press of Martin and Scott, with Palmer and Weimann stopping their full-backs.  They hit more long passes against us, than against any other team this season.  Maxwell was forced to kick 25 times, the most he had kicked long in over a year.

They might’ve been decent in the final 12-15 minutes, and since….but they weren’t against us….imho.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Davefevs

[Offside]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

It also concerns me how far Dasilva is away from their player who puts the cross in. No pressure on the ball whatsoever. 

[Waconda]

25 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. Lots wanted a big name, but I was never really that bothered in what people were describing a 'proven manager' - one that has won promotion to the prem.

Every job has its own unique challenges, so one challenge might be easier or more suited to one type of manager than the other.

Also the game has evolved. The managers/head coaches of today probably do things very differently to managers of years ago.

But I was happy enough with Nige, just didnt know what to expect.

The "big name" obsession with appointing managers and signing players is a problem for a "middling" club like ourselves.

Guilty of it myself at times.

[woodsyred]

If we try to park the bus only be a matter of time before we concede Coventry have some tricky wide players really don't see us keeping them out so we will have to have a go and take 1 or 2 of the few chances we create hopefully

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. Lots wanted a big name, but I was never really that bothered in what people were describing a 'proven manager' - one that has won promotion to the prem.

Every job has its own unique challenges, so one challenge might be easier or more suited to one type of manager than the other.

Also the game has evolved. The managers/head coaches of today probably do things very differently to managers of years ago.

But I was happy enough with Nige, just didnt know what to expect.

3 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

The "big name" obsession with appointing managers and signing players is a problem for a "middling" club like ourselves.

Guilty of it myself at times.

With all these things “big name” does / might not equal “right person”.

FWIW with the situation we were in we needed someone who could take an overarching review of the club, understand the issues and build a plan to remediate.  I think we did well to get someone like Nigel Pearson in to perform that role.  That’s not to say that person is the right person to deliver the all of the plan nor necessarily through to the end.  All projects require different expertise at different times.  But we are still massively early in that rebuild and trying to do it on a shoestring.

Some of the “name” suggestions we’re so pie in the sky it was incredible.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

 

Yeah they certainly struggled first half.

I guess what I mean is the intent to get it down and pass in their first championship game and away from home. Though yeah I do remember they went direct with the pace they had in forward areas and with our fairly intense pressing. I might have miss remembered it a bit but thought they were taking chances out the back too as that's what gave us the opportunities to press like we did.

yes, spot on. They tried to pass, we cut passing lanes out and they went long, lost the ball, etc, etc. I think they realised they had to try and break through the lines and that’s when we caught them.  I did laugh pre-game when the pros are suggesting they were long ball pre-game!!!

Interesting actually that Swansea also play it out a lot, probably more than anyone. And against us they also probably went more direct than usual as we pressed them first half. Maybe we were actually good at pressing back then?  Martin was super fit and maybe not so much now.

yes, I did a little video of our press that night. It was good in the first half.  They pushed Laird on second half, a gamble, but it worked.  More on this below.

I quite like a mix of playing it out and direct. Changing depending on game situation and opponents. We have been far too direct in our play. More recently it seems we are trying to pass the ball more but we look a bit out of practice as we haven't done it all season!

of late we have been too direct, agreed.  First half v Brum and Forest we passed it better, couldn’t go the distance though.

Plymouth are an example of a team that play it out but will also go long. Using runners up top rather than a big man. Not winning the first ball often but relying on 2nd balls. I really like how they play.

Blackpool certainly were not reluctant to go direct last season either up to Yates and Sims.

all teams will at some point, even Fulham, Bournemouth etc….it’s the way they do that matters.  Aimless punts is very different measured longer passes.

I thought second half we were really trying to score a 2nd but never really looked like scoring as Blackpool were the better side who had chances themselves. They had adapted to problems we were causing. It did worry me a bit seeing us struggle to create in that 2nd half.

I think they deserved that goal in the end as they had created chances before that and we looked uncomfortable.

It was another game where I felt bad decisions were made.

To play King and Martin up top at the end was poor. Weimann right midfield. Vyner had been hobbling for a while at right back and wasn't subbed. We looked vulnerable on that right side and they took advantage.

I remember Critchley on the touchline on that side of the pitch instructing one of the forwards pointing to come more to the left. It seemed he knew where we were weak and that's where the goal came from.

Who would have thought it would have got this bad for us though, and who would have thought they'd been 9 places ahead of us in November!

not me, but then again I didn’t think they were 1) that bad against us, they were well organised (unlike Peterborough) nor that 2) shouts of the worst team we will face at AG this season we’re a bit premature.

Comments embedded above.

Back to the WBs and Laird from above.

When our 442 faces a 352WB, if you can pin the WBs back you’ve won half the battle.  If you can’t then you either:

- accept that your own Wide Midfielders are gonna be pushed back or

- you let your fullbacks deal with them.

If you let your wide midfielders come deep to mark them, then they sit on top of your fullbacks and you can’t build out from the back.

If you let your fullbacks deal with them, of course you’re creating a risk, but you’re also creating opportunity.

In that match if Dasilva takes Laird and Simpson takes Bidwell, then Pring and Scott should have so much space to play in.  But you have to get them the ball, and they need to be smart not to play too high and wide (boy I’ve said that some times) so that they are in touch with our own midfield who with James and Massengo are up against a 2-2 - Grimes and Fulton / Paterson and Cullen.  We probably should’ve matched their “box” up or gone lopsided, but as we were chasing the game, I can see why we tried to play our MF4 in a line, because the space was behind their WBs.  Grimes got on the ball more and more.  Easy in hindsight though.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I was probably unrealistic with Struber! I think you would have liked the pressing tactics had that been a realistic option.

In some respects yes.  I quite liked our press early this season too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

I watched the highlights of wins at QPR & Reading in previous seasons you had Ashley Williams, Kalas, Baker all throwing themselves into challenges & blocks.

We need this from those in front of the defence too.

The 3rd goal at Birmingham was even worse, both Bakinson & HNM put in half hearted attempts to dispossess Gardner, a terrible effort.

Doesn't solve the problem though of being too deep- although good if you want that.

Ashley Williams especially with his age would never have been all that suited to a high line eg.

It's good, the commitment on display is great. However it only takes a side so far IMO, symptom of a deeper issue.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a general note, not got time to respond in depth but a quick observation/thought

3-5-2 vs 4-4-2

Yeah, the 2 vs 1 in wide areas is an undoubted advantage to the 4-4-2 side but then the 3-5-2 is an advantage in that zone to keep the ball away from the 4-4-2 side...perhaps even 4 v 2 if someone can step up from the back 3 into midfield- but there's definitely scope to pin opposition wingbacks back.

What is also interesting perhaps is 3-4-2-1 vs 4-4-2.

Then you theoretically can be matched on with wingbacks and wide attackers vs full backs and wingers and given that there is a spare man, someone can step into CM from the back 3 while still leaving 2 v 2 at the back.

Although the opposition- the 3-4-2-1 side- might leave their striker isolated up v 2 CBs.

Certainly occurs a lot more now than 10-15 years ago though, back then at this level 4-4-2 vs 4-4-2 was a lot more commonplace.

[GrahamC]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Doesn't solve the problem though of being too deep- although good if you want that.

Ashley Williams especially with his age would never have been all that suited to a high line eg.

Fair comment.

I was never a defender so bow to the superior knowledge of those who were but my point was really about defending with more heart & desire, whether that is stopping crosses, making us far harder to play through or the stuff I had highlighted.

Although we gave the guy too much space for the first against Brum, the deflection off Kalas was unlucky, whereas the other two were woeful from us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Fair comment.

I was never a defender so bow to the superior knowledge of those who were but my point was really about defending with more heart & desire, whether that is stopping crosses, making us far harder to play through or the stuff I had highlighted.

Although we gave the guy too much space for the first against Brum, the deflection off Kalas was unlucky, whereas the other two were woeful from us.

We definitely have to be harder to play against/through agreed. Suppose it's better than what we have now.

Maybe we can build a base from that starting point. Hopefully the defending would start from the front, the midfield sit, drop or press? Hard one but get close to the opposition either way!

On a general note, certainly agree with you on Vyner. Think he is a good utility player and gets some unfair flak- him sitting between the defence and midfield tomorrow might be one way to go if the injuries to midfield still as they have been.

Perhaps the strikers drop off a bit and screen rather than press although Weimann can press of course.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Russell Martin had only been in the job 2 weeks and only had 5 sessions with his players and working on a whole new philosophy and way of playing before our fixture. And with injuries too. No preseason with the players. Us pressing them and causing them problems at that stage in those circumstances was probably a lot different to trying to do the same now.

 

I’m not sure it was a whole new philosophy?  Wingback system, Grimes the focal point of building passing moves, available to receive passes, etc. Pretty similar to Cooper!  Bit more emphasis on play from the keeper perhaps, but not a whole new philosophy, he already had a team that liked to pass it.  It was still a decent squad, foundations built on PP money over a few years.

He has done well though.

[The Constant Rabbit]

I'd bite anyones hand off for a point and a committed showing.

 

4-4-1-1

Solid back 4 as possible

Massengo hopefully fit for this. Defensive midfield 4. Williams a chance to return. James unlikely.

Palmer as the 1

Wells central as solo forward to latch onto through balls.

 

I'd drop Martin and Weimann

 

OPTIMAL

Bentley

Tanner  Kalas Baker  Pring

Massengo Williams James  Dasilva

Palmer

Wells

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner, Bakinson  Pearson  Martin,  Conway, Simpson

 

 

LIKELY

Bentley

Tanner Kalas Atkinson Pring

Massengo Bakinson Pearson DaSilva

Palmer

Wells

 

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner,  Martin, Scott, Conway, Simpson, Benarous 

 

This is where we are as a club. People slating Nige should just look at the squad we have. Staying up would be a great achievement.

[Davefevs]

[Rocking Red Cyril]

13 hours ago, Rossi the Robin said:

I’d have Palmer in there instead of Bakinson, if his heads right will put some challenges in

Cant say I really like those 2 trios anyhow, a bit scary and light 

Yes And i feel Palmer A much better source of the ball Wells is looking for because he will not keep blasting them over the bar 

[Murraysrightplum]

The bus or Coach 1?

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Murraysrightplum said:

The bus or Coach 1?

Both

[Waconda]

                                              Bentley

                     Tanner     Kalas     Atkinson     DaSilva

                Massengo     Williams      Bakinson     Pring

                                     Weimann

                                                      Martin

 

Is my prediction.