Vyner

[Davefevs]

Sounds like he might be one who hasn’t been happy.  Interesting insight in Bristol Post post-match interview.

 

I thought he had a very decent game yesterday.

[GrahamC]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sounds like he might be one who hasn’t been happy.  Interesting insight in Bristol Post post-match interview.

 

I thought he had a very decent game yesterday.

He did have a good game & loved that bit of skill first half when he beat 3 players & did a little pirouette & came out with the ball.

Nige is right though, defenders are judged far more on stopping the opposition than anything else.

He’s a great athlete, an honest lad, like a few others he needs to minimise the errors.

[Sir Geoff]

Can't argue with any of that but he was so guilty of giving the ball away carelessly (lumping it upfield) on more than a couple of occasions yesterday. Each time he had time to just play a simple pass and thus keep possession. And as for his slice when under no pressure as the ball dropped out of the sky which almost went to one of their attacking players.

Agree with doing the simple things and playing yourself back into the side but he really does need to take more care when in possession imo.

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Vyner: Dribbles / Successful - 1 / 0 (Wyscout)

Harsh….I still think the tackle that followed was naughty.  Opponent slid in on his knees.

[Waconda]

He was excellent on Saturday.

IMO he is more of a character who responds with an "arm round the shoulder" rather than a "sergeant major" approach.

[tin]

Let's see if he can string together a run of error-free games which doesn't cost us a goal then. He's got a long way to go to convince me he's good enough for this level. 

[Mendip City]

For me he looked best in midfield. He’s pretty comfortable on the ball, can pass, has a shot on him and height is an asset. 
Needs to reduce the errors but they are less often punished from midfield. 
 

I’m  disappointed that he seems to be on NP’s discard pile. Agree the the arm ‘round shoulder comment above. I’d rather see the new management/coaching team looking to improve him (and others), especially as they’re former defenders. To counteract the small squad point, we also have a small budget, so making the best of what we’ve got is sensible rather than trading and bringing new/additional players in. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

It was, indeed, a lovely pirouette, but I think Andreas Weimann also deserves some credit for the manner in which he shielded Vyner from the first tackle to enable him to undertake the move.

[LondonBristolian]

13 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

For me he looked best in midfield. He’s pretty comfortable on the ball, can pass, has a shot on him and height is an asset. 
Needs to reduce the errors but they are less often punished from midfield. 
 

I’m  disappointed that he seems to be on NP’s discard pile. Agree the the arm ‘round shoulder comment above. I’d rather see the new management/coaching team looking to improve him (and others), especially as they’re former defenders. To counteract the small squad point, we also have a small budget, so making the best of what we’ve got is sensible rather than trading and bringing new/additional players in. 

I'm not so sure from Pearson's comments that he is on the discard pile. I wondered if he had been but Pearson's comments seem to be far more saying "look, you know you're not in form and you're making mistakes but you've got to push through it. We rate you and want you to succeed here but you've got to do some of the work yourself". 
 

[Mendip City]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'm not so sure from Pearson's comments that he is on the discard pile. I wondered if he had been but Pearson's comments seem to be far more saying "look, you know you're not in form and you're making mistakes but you've got to push through it. We rate you and want you to succeed here but you've got to do some of the work yourself". 
 

Hopefully you’re right. We also need him settled in one position… if he’s still dealing with the step up then being shunted around the pitch won’t help and isn’t fair.  

[PHILINFRANCE]

14 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think Alex Scott deserves the credit for that! 

Why is that?

Has she been helping him tactically or giving him dancing/ballet lessons?

[Harry]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

All very nice. But play the next 20 seconds where he loses the challenge, Blackburn break, and Vyner (as one of only 3 recognised defenders), jogs back with no urgency whatsoever. 
You lost the ball Zak - effing sprint back and help your mates out!! 

[Henry]

I don’t give a shit about a fancy turn on the touchline! I’ve seen a few posters say he’s had a good game apart from a few mistakes that have led to goals.

His job is to stop the ball going in our net. That’s the only thing he needs to focus on, otherwise he’s going to end up in L1 pretty quickly.

[Lew-T]

54 minutes ago, tin said:

Let's see if he can string together a run of error-free games which doesn't cost us a goal then. He's got a long way to go to convince me he's good enough for this level. 

Sadly this is where I am with Zak.

He’s okay in parts but there always seems to be a howler around the corner with him. He’s a determined lad but he really needs to kick on now….

[Waconda]

4 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Sadly this is where I am with Zak.

He’s okay in parts but there always seems to be a howler around the corner with him. He’s a determined lad but he really needs to kick on now….

Play him in the formation and the tactics we used last Saturday and he will be fine.

The 4 of Vyner, Kalas, Baker and Atkinson competing for the back 3 CH spots is very decent for this level.

[tin]

7 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Sadly this is where I am with Zak.

He’s okay in parts but there always seems to be a howler around the corner with him. He’s a determined lad but he really needs to kick on now….

Precisely. He's going to be 25 soon, has decent experience at this level, and seems to have already hit his ceiling. He's a good athlete, but he's also a serial ball-watcher, which I loathe to see in any defender, and switches off way too often for a good centre-back. As someone else said, it'll take more than a pirouette to change my opinion. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Bristol City's Alex Scott is doing the shielding in that clip

My reply about Alex Scott was, of course, facetious, but I have just had another look at your clip, and you are quite correct.

I was watching on a mobile phone, but for some reason I thought it was Weimann. 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Henry said:

I don’t give a shit about a fancy turn on the touchline! I’ve seen a few posters say he’s had a good game apart from a few mistakes that have led to goals.

His job is to stop the ball going in our net. That’s the only thing he needs to focus on, otherwise he’s going to end up in L1 pretty quickly.

That’s taking Pearson too literally imho.  Of course he needs to cut the defensive mistakes out, and that requires better concentration.  But he has a role to play in possession too, not that he needs to be doing skill-spots on the touchline per se.

Back to his mistakes, if we go back and analyse Birmingham, was Deeney beating him in a header a mistake, or was the lack of marking in behind him by Atkinson, Kalas and Tanner?  Re the Gardner goal, having watched it again, just because Vyner ends up being nearest to Gardner when he heads it in, I would argue (til I’m blue in the face) it wasn’t his man.  Re Cov, 100% his fault…in fact 200%, one for getting caught wrong side, two for laying his hands on Godden’s back.

But as a group we are very keen to make one player the person at fault, when in fact it can be a combination of things.

Even Brereton’s goal.

O’Dowda and Baker switch off / don’t communicate at the throw-in, Brereton gets the ball 3/4 yards of space.

Baker switches off on the cross, let’s Brereton mosey on towards the area

Kakas deciding to head the cross

Etc.

Kalas gets all the blame.

[Merrick's Marvels]

30 minutes ago, Harry said:

All very nice. But play the next 20 seconds where he loses the challenge, Blackburn break, and Vyner (as one of only 3 recognised defenders), jogs back with no urgency whatsoever. 
You lost the ball Zak - effing sprint back and help your mates out!! 

Absolutely.

Pirouetting centre backs??? Jeez, that just about sums us up at the minute. We can't defend for toffee but our centre backs can do a lovely pirouette!  

Vyner has always had the demeanour of a rabbit in headlights. There's no doubting his physical qualities but it's what he has between his ears that will define his career. 

I said ages ago on here if Pearson sticks around long enough neither Vyner nor Dasilva would still be in the team. I haven't seen much in the meantime to change my mind. 

[Maltshoveller]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

He was excellent on Saturday.

IMO he is more of a character who responds with an "arm round the shoulder" rather than a "sergeant major" approach.

Imo those type of players are the ones who hide when the going gets tough 

[Henry]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s taking Pearson too literally imho.  Of course he needs to cut the defensive mistakes out, and that requires better concentration.  But he has a role to play in possession too, not that he needs to be doing skill-spots on the touchline per se.

Back to his mistakes, if we go back and analyse Birmingham, was Deeney beating him in a header a mistake, or was the lack of marking in behind him by Atkinson, Kalas and Tanner?  Re the Gardner goal, having watched it again, just because Vyner ends up being nearest to Gardner when he heads it in, I would argue (til I’m blue in the face) it wasn’t his man.  Re Cov, 100% his fault…in fact 200%, one for getting caught wrong side, two for laying his hands on Godden’s back.

But as a group we are very keen to make one player the person at fault, when in fact it can be a combination of things.

Even Brereton’s goal.

O’Dowda and Baker switch off / don’t communicate at the throw-in, Brereton gets the ball 3/4 yards of space.

Baker switches off on the cross, let’s Brereton mosey on towards the area

Kakas deciding to head the cross

Etc.

Kalas gets all the blame.

I’m not taking Pearson literally. It is my view of Vyner based on watching him over the years. 
 

He has some good qualities, decent pace/mobility, decent on the ball, seems a honest lad who tries.

I was at Coventry. As soon as he let their player get on the wrong side, you just knew what was going to happen next. He made a foul he didn’t need to make. He’s got to trust Bentley who is very good in 1 v 1s.

I like my defenders to defend first. If they can play a bit that’s a bonus. I’m sure Pearson agrees hence why Baker is here and Moore is in Scotland.

Edit: I should have added Baker has been at fault for many goals over the years. Too often gets caught under the ball from a cross and ends up lying on the floor with the ball in our net.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Henry

[Waconda]

2 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

Imo those type of players are the ones who hide when the going gets tough 

I disagree.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, Henry said:

I’m not taking Pearson literally. It is my view of Vyner based on watching him over the years. 
 

He has some good qualities, decent pace/mobility, decent on the ball, seems a honest lad who tries.

I was at Coventry. As soon as he let their player get on the wrong side, you just knew what was going to happen next. He made a foul he didn’t need to make. He’s got to trust Bentley who is very good in 1 v 1s.

I like my defenders to defend first. If they can play a bit that’s a bonus. I’m sure Pearson agrees hence why Baker is here and Moore is in Scotland.

Edit: I should have added Baker has been at fault for many goals over the years. Too often gets caught under the ball from a cross and ends up lying on the floor with the ball in our net.

Apologies, didn’t mean it to come across like that….i was referring to the quote from Nige in my OP.

29 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think Vyner made 4 bad errors in 2 games. But he was centre of a back 3 and in a back 2 in those games.

Against Blackburn he was right of a back 3 and he played well. He was doing a pretty reliable job there under Holden at the start of last season imo.

Needs to keep to the levels of the Blackburn performance. But there are very different tests that are different to Blackburn so let's see what happens.

I liked him in midfield last season but I doubt we will see him there again unless we get a few injuries in that position.

Going into this season I was worried about him at right back. And I am not too keen on him in central defence in a back 4.

But right of a back 3 is more suited. Help from the right wing back in wide areas, and 2 centre backs alongside him helping defend balls into the box.

I'll be surprised if he is dropped after that last performance.

What were the 4 bad errors in those 2 games?

At the end of the day, defenders are gonna get blamed when we concede, especially when they are like Vyner’s  at Cov, or Kalas’s v Blackburn.

But in Vyner’s case, we are criticising “true” defensive errors (switching off, not marking etc), rather than a cock-up trying to be clever on the ball.  That’s the overall point I’m trying to make.  And although Nige is correct that it’s his defensive contribution he wants, if Vyner stopped giving away a few goals, but lost possession every time he got it, he’d be jumped on for that too - by OTIB…..and Nige!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

I think Vyner made 4 bad errors in 2 games. But he was centre of a back 3 and in a back 2 in those games.

Against Blackburn he was right of a back 3 and he played well. He was doing a pretty reliable job there under Holden at the start of last season imo.

Needs to keep to the levels of the Blackburn performance. But there are very different tests that are different to Blackburn so let's see what happens.

I liked him in midfield last season but I doubt we will see him there again unless we get a few injuries in that position.

Going into this season I was worried about him at right back. And I am not too keen on him in central defence in a back 4.

But right of a back 3 is more suited. Help from the right wing back in wide areas, and 2 centre backs alongside him helping defend balls into the box.

I'll be surprised if he is dropped after that last performance.

I agree that it was suicidal putting him as the central of the 3, so it was good to see him on the right of the 3 against Blackburn. 
However, I’d also make the point that he actually ‘got away with one’ earlier in the first half. Blackburn had a good chance that they fluffed. 
He drifted too far right and left a passing lane between him and Kalas which Travis threaded through for a good chance. 
It’s the little things like this that matter. Staying fully focused at all times and not allowing yourself to be dragged out too far. He switched off in this instance and we were lucky we didn’t concede from it. 
You see it on their offside goal too - have a look at the acres between Vyner & Kalas. It actually caused a bit of confusion in that area as we had too many players and so no one knew who was supposed to close down the crosser. 
In summary - if he’s playing on the right of a 3, he needs to stay in touch with Kalas inside him. Too many times he got a little bit lost. 

[Davefevs]

Yeah, the Deeney one - I want to know why Vyner ended up marking Deeney.  That’s my main concern.  I’d also question the anticipation and cover behind him.  Easy to blame him for losing a header, but I’m more critical of those behind him for this goal, even Bentley who came haring off his line and ended up in no-man’s land.

On an aside, being a CB (albeit nowhere near the same level), I don’t concede that just because it was Deeney means Deeney should’ve won it….he only wins 40% of aerial duels.  Vyner does have deficiencies aerially, because he doesn’t use much / any physicality, he comes from too far away from his opponent, and therefore doesn’t get up early enough.

Toyally agree with Cov, you’ve taken my 200% and made it 300%

Edited November 24, 2021 by Davefevs

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree that it was suicidal putting him as the central of the 3, so it was good to see him on the right of the 3 against Blackburn. 
However, I’d also make the point that he actually ‘got away with one’ earlier in the first half. Blackburn had a good chance that they fluffed. 
He drifted too far right and left a passing lane between him and Kalas which Travis threaded through for a good chance. 
It’s the little things like this that matter. Staying fully focused at all times and not allowing yourself to be dragged out too far. He switched off in this instance and we were lucky we didn’t concede from it. 
You see it on their offside goal too - have a look at the acres between Vyner & Kalas. It actually caused a bit of confusion in that area as we had too many players and so no one knew who was supposed to close down the crosser. 
In summary - if he’s playing on the right of a 3, he needs to stay in touch with Kalas inside him. Too many times he got a little bit lost. 

Out of interest, not trying to be awkward, but why?  Really depends on the reasons.  Don’t get me wrong, I was surprised, but without knowing why it’s difficult to say it was suicidal.

Was it to have Kalas RCB3?

Was Zak the designated sweeper, the other 2 mark?  Better headers at RCB / LCB depending where Deeney peeled?

Was it so Tomas didn’t have so far to go (out of position) to take long throws?

I don’t know.  The stupid thing is that for a good portion of the game it was fine….but games swing on single events.  The second goal a case in point….especially as we’d been on top at that point…arghhh

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

It seems they now think Vyner is best on the right and Kalas in the centre, so maybe they know it was a mistake to not go with that the first time.

Still probably a lot to see of Vyner to decide on him, I thought he was decent right of the back 3 last season. I think we see more of his qualifies and less of his weaknesses in that position. And he will look far better in a team that plays positive football on the front foot. Early Holden era suited him imo.

Agree.

Agree.

[Harry]

45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, not trying to be awkward, but why?  Really depends on the reasons.  Don’t get me wrong, I was surprised, but without knowing why it’s difficult to say it was suicidal.

Was it to have Kalas RCB3?

Was Zak the designated sweeper, the other 2 mark?  Better headers at RCB / LCB depending where Deeney peeled?

Was it so Tomas didn’t have so far to go (out of position) to take long throws?

I don’t know.  The stupid thing is that for a good portion of the game it was fine….but games swing on single events.  The second goal a case in point….especially as we’d been on top at that point…arghhh

I just think that if playing a 3, the central one ought to be the most experienced / reliable. 
I’d like to think the middle CB would be the organiser too. 
The way we seemed to play it, was also that the central one was the one attacking the ball from goal kicks etc (ie the ball winner rather than the sweeper), hence why it ended upwith Vyner competing with Deeney, which you refer to with JonDolman. 
 

The way we played it, it screamed for Kalas to be central with Vyner RCB. 
 

p.s. - don’t talk to me about those bleddy long throws

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Still probably a lot to see of Vyner to decide on him, I thought he was decent right of the back 3 last season. I think we see more of his qualifies and less of his weaknesses in that position. And he will look far better in a team that plays positive football on the front foot. Early Holden era suited him imo.

Agree with this, even though he has played plenty of games, he has suffered a little from his versatility .
The extended run at CB, I criticised him for his "mistake a game" as it seemed. He could switch off or lose position. Fast forward a couple of months and I thought he was excellent. Stopped the errors, settled into his role and looked quality. Then forced into a DMF role , more or less, and again I thought he was very good. He did tail off with the revolving door team selection and when he ended up at right back he looked almost lost. I hope they stick with him at RCB, IMO it's his best role, not only that I think he could be a very, very good player there. I just think he needs time to settle into that position again.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I just think that if playing a 3, the central one ought to be the most experienced / reliable. 
I’d like to think the middle CB would be the organiser too. 
The way we seemed to play it, was also that the central one was the one attacking the ball from goal kicks etc (ie the ball winner rather than the sweeper), hence why it ended upwith Vyner competing with Deeney, which you refer to with JonDolman. 
 

The way we played it, it screamed for Kalas to be central with Vyner RCB. 
 

p.s. - don’t talk to me about those bleddy long throws

I don’t disagree with any of that, nor what Jon put either….I’m just being an awkward sod.

When I played in a 3, apart from a similar aberration where my manager thought I could play sweeper, I always played as the outside CB, virtually always the RCB3.  The LCB3 and me were the ball winners, on the deck or in the air.  If the ball went straight down the middle we’d have to decide who was gonna go for it, we tried not to let the sweeper go for it…he was there to cover a flick.

And then you see a variant with Ayling, Flint and Williams, where neither outside CB was dominant aerially, but teams tried to keep it away from Flint.

 

[Harry]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t disagree with any of that, nor what Jon put either….I’m just being an awkward sod.

When I played in a 3, apart from a similar aberration where my manager thought I could play sweeper, I always played as the outside CB, virtually always the RCB3.  The LCB3 and me were the ball winners, on the deck or in the air.  If the ball went straight down the middle we’d have to decide who was gonna go for it, we tried not to let the sweeper go for it…he was there to cover a flick.

And then you see a variant with Ayling, Flint and Williams, where neither outside CB was dominant aerially, but teams tried to keep it away from Flint.

 

Yep. In that variant, Flint was clearly the ball winner, rather than the sweeper. This is kinda how we played it v Brum, with Vyner central and being the ball winner. For me that didn’t work with him there - as you say, he’s not aerially dominant. 
If we played the style which you did, you’d be happy with Kalas & Baker/Atkinson as the ones which attack the ball and Vyner sweeping, but we didn’t do that. Which I found quite strange. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

I like Zak seems decent pro, good physically, and has talent. But feel he has to find his way as a defender with City. We have midfield covered with better players. So yes I thought he looked decent against Blackburn. But if his game is that effected by the defensive set up he is not very versatile even in defence. Hope he can sort this out or I do feel he might be on his way soon 

[YCbrs]

5 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

It was, indeed, a lovely pirouette, but I think Andreas Weimann also deserves some credit for the manner in which he shielded Vyner from the first tackle to enable him to undertake the move.

Didn’t even notice that first time around, incredible footballing intelligence.