Nige, Refs , PGMOL & Yellow cards

[Cowshed]

Just now, 1960maaan said:

I honestly think that the years of abuse they get at a starting level, youth and Sunday mornings, puts loads of potential Refs off.
Smaller pool means less choice. There has to be an elite level, that just means they are the best of what you have to pick from. 
 

Yes. The majority of refs the game is recruiting (4/5) are under 18. The majority of  those refs give up in two years. 

Here is a why. 

The FA put children refs in purple tops, and yellow socks to identify they are children. It does not stop what is child abuse. 

Regarding small pool. Yes there is. There are also waiting lists to progress up the ladder. Refs have to display continuous personal development to go through the tiers. At elite level for what are six figure salaries there is a lot of competition. Its very difficult to reach that elite level. The evaluation process drives standards up.  

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The evaluation process drives standards up.  

I think most of us would disagree with that tbh.

[Cowshed]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

By the bad decisions they make.

 

So anecdotal. 

PMGOL refs are judged on the decisions they make. For every game over the season. There is a merit league. Appointments are linked to merit. Its evaluation based on stats. Not enough merit, out they go. And in come those who are progressing. Its a high performance culture.  

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you think that the pro refs we see in PL and EFL are performing to the required level, I think you’ve set the bar too low.  I suspect the PGMOL have too.

 

A level that is equivalent to European peers and monitored by the PMGOL, the FA, and IFAB. The bar isn't low. PGMOL refs display a elite national standard. If they did not IFAB intervene to raise the standard to expectation.

 

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

All about opinions.  Yours is polar opposite to mine.  Hey ho.

The last part regarding the PGOML x IFAB is not an opinion. IFAB do intervene and have, when they feel refs here are not consistently interpreting the rules consistently to their national standard. 

[Steve Watts]

On 24/04/2023 at 19:41, Robbored said:

Rugby came into being around 1825 and football just 20 years later and in Victorian times society was immensely different to nowadays.

Nope.  Rugby evolved from football and became a game in its own right when the FA was formed and set out rules including one that outlawed the carrying of the ball.  Some schools, such as one in Rugby decided against following the new rules and continued in their own way, thus introducing Rugby Football.  (This is understood to be the truer version of the one where a kid picked up the ball during a football match and ran it into the goal, prompting the ref to say that doesn't count, but it was a good try)

21 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think that's really getting into the complexities of the offside rule. 

Strictly speaking when Weimann takes the shot, Vyner is offside. People often forget that it has to be two players from the other team (one is usually the GK) However I'd argue as the initial shot was deliberately played by the Rotherham player for his keeper to parry to Weimann then those two actions played Vyner onside. 

This is also a fact that seems to get forgotten by refs, pundits and fans alike when it comes to the "last man".  If a player is brought down by a defender when through on goal he's often sent off for being the last man.  If a player is brought down by the keeper but a defender was behind him and could have blocked any shot this often seems to be deemed a yellow card offence for the keeper as a defender was covering.  

As for why grassroots is struggling for refs, then you only need to look at parents, coaches and players.  Twice this season (under 11's) we've had 14 year old daughters of the coaches refereeing their first matches, and both times they were being harangued by players or parents (strangely though, these same parents aren't willing to pick up a flag and help out running the line, and one of them was also shouting instructions to his son to push up and play his opponent offside.....they were both the other side of the halfway line at the time!)

Some coaches are just as bad with constantly on the backs of the referees, many of whom are just starting out.  I certainly wouldn't want to take up refereeing.

[Cowshed]

34 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think most of us would disagree with that tbh.

There are people on this thread who would disagree. Including those who have been corrected over their understanding of the game. 

You disagree, ok. Do you know what the evaluation process is? The process rewards the attainment of standards. Its linear, to progress individuals have to improve. That is a process of evaluation that raises standards at each refereeing level.

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

So anecdotal. 

PMGOL refs are judged on the decisions they make. For every game over the season. There is a merit league. Appointments are linked to merit. Its evaluation based on stats. Not enough merit, out they go. And in come those who are progressing. Its a high performance culture.  

A level that is equivalent to European peers and monitored by the PMGOL, the FA, and IFAB. The bar isn't low. PGMOL refs display a elite national standard. If they did not IFAB intervene to raise the standard to expectation.

 

The last part regarding the PGOML x IFAB is not an opinion. IFAB do intervene and have, when they feel refs here are not consistently interpreting the rules consistently to their national standard. 

We ain’t gonna agree on this and I’m completely fine having a different view to you.  I will continue to express mine.

What you’ve described doesn’t make a high performance culture, it creates an insular view that their processes will see cream rise to the top.

As I said use of the word “elite” is giving a misrepresentation of meeting the needs of all stakeholders.  Because the football clubs aren’t happy with the levels are they?

hey-ho (again)

[the1stknowle]

18 hours ago, Cowshed said:

You have used mass and a lot, then objectively bad, Being objective how are you measuring this? A mass of bad decisions cannot attach themselves to just one club over differing data. One measurement, or two yes as outliers, but all the games decisions versus a league? No. There there has to be explanation. Rank bad luck wont be it .. Leaving? Conspiracy, their all out to get BCFC? No again.  

I used 'mass' once in my original point. Hardly 'a lot'. But not really the point.

Look, if you are saying that the only explanation for any more than two 'outliers' (I think you are using the term incorrectly in this sentence btw) is, by implication, a 'conspiracy', and therefore, even though I have never used the word, I must have meant that, then we can leave the conversation there. It's a point that is tough to respond to when I fully agree that there is no conspiracy, just poor standards in refereeing. To make that point doesn't have to be abuse. It doesn't have to be personal. It doesn't even have to be a failing of the individual referee. In fact, if it is multiple referees turning in bad performances, then it is a systemic failure, not a personal one. That won't be fixed by ignoring it and shielding bad decisions from legitimate criticism, any more than it will be fixed by abusing individual referees. 

[Three Lions]

20 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

Now some slippery slope. 

You're a critical thinking case study.

Do you think that the standard of officiating at the pro level is acceptable? What accountability is there for poor performance? Do you think refereeing is a consistent and improving profession? 

By jumping to a straw man and slippery slope argument about unproven and hypothetical consequences you are ignoring a problem that exists. It seems to me that that problem is the cause of disrespect and therefore the filtering down of anger to grassroots that you claim is correlated.

The leadership of professional referees in this country are clueless and the standard of refereeing reflects that lack of leadership and direction. 

 

 

Yes i think the standard of officials at pro level is acceptable, they are bloody good at what they do because to get there they have to be 100%.

Poor performance. Everybody has one now and again, have too many you will get binned. I ref and every game i am marked by both teams have too many low scores and the fa are out to watch. i also have to keep on top of cpd do courses intermittently and a few other things to keep up to date. Thats low level stuff and i do level 6 no great level but to answer your do you think reffing is a constant and improving profession? Yes if its a profession and yes if its not. if i wanted (i don't) to go to 5 that means i have to learn and display more. Level 3 is another world of demands and that is not pro. To get up to above national list you have to years of consistent improving, you cant magik your way in. 

I dont understand your straw man thing.  we can see what goes on at the top repeated at the bottom. Klopp giving it to officials will be the kid tonight at an AYL game.  Had it myself because i put a flag up and the other teams manager and coaches thrn parents are on at me for the rest of the game. My son refs he has had girls teams parents at u12 level all around him on th e pitch. Yeah its a correlation the refs charity (straw men??) they offer support to refs and they will, give you the correlation overand over again.

Leadership of refs in this country is a clueless?? the one thing they do have is a clue. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Three Lions

[Three Lions]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

 

The FA put children refs in purple tops, and yellow socks to identify they are children. It does not stop what is child abuse. 

 

Doesnt work. People see the purple and think they are not proper refs and that is something to go at the kid with. 

[Three Lions]

1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

Nope.  Rugby evolved from football and became a game in its own right when the FA was formed and set out rules including one that outlawed the carrying of the ball.  Some schools, such as one in Rugby decided against following the new rules and continued in their own way, thus introducing Rugby Football.  (This is understood to be the truer version of the one where a kid picked up the ball during a football match and ran it into the goal, prompting the ref to say that doesn't count, but it was a good try)

This is also a fact that seems to get forgotten by refs, pundits and fans alike when it comes to the "last man".  If a player is brought down by a defender when through on goal he's often sent off for being the last man.  If a player is brought down by the keeper but a defender was behind him and could have blocked any shot this often seems to be deemed a yellow card offence for the keeper as a defender was covering.  

As for why grassroots is struggling for refs, then you only need to look at parents, coaches and players.  Twice this season (under 11's) we've had 14 year old daughters of the coaches refereeing their first matches, and both times they were being harangued by players or parents (strangely though, these same parents aren't willing to pick up a flag and help out running the line, and one of them was also shouting instructions to his son to push up and play his opponent offside.....they were both the other side of the halfway line at the time!)

 

Sort of a reason I gave reffing a go. Theres not enough refs and my sons league needed them. Step up if you think you can do better and i now realise how little i knew about reffing and the rules of a game i watched and played badly. 

[Davefevs]

Worth a read of this, from the LMA re Referees.  It’s from 2008 ish, but cover a lot of what I see as a fan today, I.e. how much has changed:

https://leaguemanagers.com/documents/26/Refereeing_-_A_Professional_Way_Forward.pdf

Ranging from:

- not engaging LMA or players In consultation

- assessment done in house, ie marking their own homework to an extent, to

- assessors not wanting to mark down below a certain figure (59%)

Some things have improved that were called out,

- speed of feedback (Nige’s letters!!)

 

Worth a read though…if anyone is bored.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Three Lions said:

Sort of a reason I gave reffing a go. Theres not enough refs and my sons league needed them. Step up if you think you can do better and i now realise how little i knew about reffing and the rules of a game i watched and played badly. 

I reffed a few games back in the day, when I wasn’t fit, e.g. sprained wrist, so I was able to run and blow a whistle.  The bit I found hardest was - was the CF backing in, or was the CB holding him.

[luke_bristol]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

If refs do not improve they do not progress through the process to get to what are elite levels. So how does the process create this collective bad bunch? How are you measuring that? 

Per Pearsons complaint about the referee’s performance vs. Sheffield United, what sort of elite organisation sends two conflicting explanations for their failure to apply the laws of the game, within minutes of each other?

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, the1stknowle said:

I used 'mass' once in my original point. Hardly 'a lot'. But not really the point.

Look, if you are saying that the only explanation for any more than two 'outliers' (I think you are using the term incorrectly in this sentence btw) is, by implication, a 'conspiracy', and therefore, even though I have never used the word, I must have meant that, then we can leave the conversation there. It's a point that is tough to respond to when I fully agree that there is no conspiracy, just poor standards in refereeing. To make that point doesn't have to be abuse. It doesn't have to be personal. It doesn't even have to be a failing of the individual referee. In fact, if it is multiple referees turning in bad performances, then it is a systemic failure, not a personal one. That won't be fixed by ignoring it and shielding bad decisions from legitimate criticism, any more than it will be fixed by abusing individual referees. 

People have suggested that the number of penalties BCFC receive is an indication of refereeing poor performance. This poor performance anomaly is peculiar to BCFC. That was the measure other used. I would suggest that this is a peculiar outlier. Its not a measurement of refereeing poor performance. One, twice, can be errors (performance) but not for the measured period.  Poor performance cannot only be peculiar to only one team using penalties as the metric.

Refs are not turning in poor performances for only one team.

If a ref turns in multiple poor performances they are demoted, they lose their employment, and there is list of refs waiting to join the pro ref ranks. 

2 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

The stats are collated and interpreted by PGMOL, who have a vested interest in claiming standards are improving. 

It isn't independent or unbiased. 

If the standard of refereeing is poor across the board then the level required to be the best drops. If there aren't enough referees of the appropriate standard then according to your logic we wouldn't have any referees at the highest level. Clearly the "baseline" has to be fluid. 

If you honestly believe that the standard of officiating is being raised I don't know what to say to you. 

Now, the issue isn't the individual referees, it is the interpretation of the laws that has been allowed. The promotion of "personality". If we are to get to a point of consistency, which is the only thing Nige and others have ever really asked for, then the laws need to be black and white. 

That's the thing that needs addressing. The refereeing profession's one role is to consistently and fairly apply the laws of the game to each match. That isn't happening under any metrics. A foul one minute isn't the next. Nobody demands perfection, but nobody should excuse the illogical and inconsistent application of the rules we have seen at the pro level over recent seasons. To do so is to promote and encourage incompetence, drive division and abuse and ultimately lead to a us and them mentality.

The problem, as it ever was, lies with the leadership of the profession. 

 

Stats are collated by various bodies. IFAB are the overseeing body. As pointed out when a league standard drops they do intervene. 

The standard of refereeing is not poor across the board. It cannot be. Refs can go up and down levels based upon performance. 

The interpretation of laws is down to IFAB, FA's and the PGMOL adhere to the guidance IFAB provide. I don't understand what you mean by the promotion of personality.

Laws are consistently applied to a game that isn't consistent. You are referring to metrics. What metrics are you using to demonstrate that laws are not being applied fairly to each match? 

What illogical and inconsistent application of rules are you referring to? Do you have the stats for your assertion? 

You are going to realms of we, I don't know who your we is. Incompetence is not encouraged. Could you explain how the refereeing structure encourages incompetence? Incompetent refs swill be fired. Competency is a pre requisite of being a ref.

What Leadership are you referring to? The FA? The PGMOL? IFAB that utilises EUFA/FIFA?

Regarding abuse. If people think there is an us and them, they should reflect on their behaviour. 

[the1stknowle]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

there is list of refs waiting to join the pro ref ranks.

Does this not go against your entire point about potential refs leaving the game? I thought the whole point is that the pipeline is poor because its so hard to be a ref. 

I agree that referees are not turning in poor performances for just one team. That is the point. It is consistently bad. Where there are lots of random, non-conspiratorial mistakes, some teams out of 24 will be on the end of the most, and some teams out of 24 will be on the end of the least. Those on the end of the most would reasonably be more likely to complain. Lets hope those managers unlucky enough to be on the end of the most do it in a measured, non-aggressive, way, a la Nige. 

I dont think we disagree as much as you seem keen to. The managers that abuse refs are tools. The players that go out of their way to con refs - like our own Joe Low on weekend - are also part of problem. 

But you have to be able to call out bad mistakes and bad management by those responsible for the people making those mistakes. Will leave it there. 

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

There is an us and them created because there is no accountability or acknowledgment that a problem exists. You are a perfect example of that. Total denial of a problem and a lot of deflection. I don't care about an individual referee being demoted. It's irrelevant. I care about the top of the profession acknowledging a problem and taking steps to fix it. They don't and therefore they won't. And the consequence of that is frustration that will manifest itself in anger. 

Boom  

(along with the other stuff above also)

[View from the Dolman]

Interesting analysis on time wasting/running down the clock or whatever you want to call it in the PL.

Would be great to see this addressed rather than the occasional empty yellow card in the 89th minute for a goalkeeper. 

 

[Three Lions]

On 26/04/2023 at 14:49, Davefevs said:

I reffed a few games back in the day, when I wasn’t fit, e.g. sprained wrist, so I was able to run and blow a whistle.  The bit I found hardest was - was the CF backing in, or was the CB holding him.

You might hate some of what i'm going to type but that highlights how the game cant be consistent and you will think about game management. I am not a ref bible and i took advice from refs here on things like.  Think about angles forty five degrees to dead balls etc so you can see what is going on. Game management lets some go early till you see thats going on or

if its up the pitch give a fee kick  if both cb and cf are at it in an area where this the least effect showing you are going to clamp down on whats going on with free kicks. Thats straight away something people wont like because the game isnt exact and cant be!!

On 26/04/2023 at 17:39, Percy Pig said:

There is an us and them created because there is no accountability or acknowledgment that a problem exists. You are a perfect example of that. Total denial of a problem and a lot of deflection. I don't care about an individual referee being demoted. It's irrelevant. I care about the top of the profession acknowledging a problem and taking steps to fix it. They don't and therefore they won't. And the consequence of that is frustration that will manifest itself in anger. 

 

As a ref i would be going down a long post. You posts all over the place so i will have  a crack at that small part. At my bog ref standard there is loads of accountability. I can get binned if my scores are low and assessors checking on me dont think im up to my level. That accountability x 10 and x again at each level refs go up.

It not easy being a ref its bloody hard if it was so easy there be more lining up to do it. Interestingly top level pays more than semi pro football wheres all the ex semi pros going in to reffing? Too hard? Not  up to it? Dont love the game enough? 

Us and them well there should be refs should be respected. Nigel Pearson mentioned rugby where officials  really have an us and the them should be respected. In rugby dissent any dissent to an official can be a red. And rugby does mean any meaning a red. No sin bin no time out refs can go red. Managers and players are not allowed to publicly criticises officials -  its  a ban. There is a zero tolerance of abuse and dissent. 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

You might hate some of what i'm going to type but that highlights how the game cant be consistent and you will think about game management. I am not a ref bible and i took advice from refs here on things like.  Think about angles forty five degrees to dead balls etc so you can see what is going on. Game management lets some go early till you see thats going on or

if its up the pitch give a fee kick  if both cb and cf are at it in an area where this the least effect showing you are going to clamp down on whats going on with free kicks. Thats straight away something people wont like because the game isnt exact and cant be!!

Appreciate the response, but FWIW I wasn’t really looking for help with developing my ref skills…my reffing happened 25-30 years ago and a result of a ref failing to turn up / be allocated, so they needed someone to do it.  I had or have no intention of doing it now I’m in my 50s.

Aside from the example I gave which I found to work out who was fouling and who wasn’t, I found reffing quite straightforward.  I was able to keep up with play, and the feedback was positive in terms of the decisions I made…I think it helped that I was a player and knew the game.

[Cowshed]

On 26/04/2023 at 17:39, Percy Pig said:

But the assessment process is in house. It is referees assessing referees. In any other field self governance is treated with caution and additional scrutiny.

I did not assert that it was. You've completely misread the sentence, you do that a lot. Is that a deliberate strawman tactic? 

The point is that your claim that refereeing standards can only improve because there are demotions and promotions is warped logic. 

If the pool is poor then the baseline for what qualifies as elite is going to be lower. That's pretty basic statistics. Promoting and demoting does not drive up performance or diminish it. 

In the other thread about refereeing standards a quote attributed to Howard Webb stated that he didn't want to hinder a referee imposing his personality on a game. (That's paraphrased of course). That to me is the root of the problem. You cannot have consistency if you encourage one referee to interpret the rules differently to another. 

Indeed, which is why the caveat of nobody expects perfection is routinely applied to this conversation. However to book a player for time wasting on one team and then not apply the same punishment to the opposing team for 5 worse offences is nothing to do with the game being inconsistent. That is an unfair and imbalanced application of the rules. 

They are there every week. Do you actually watch professional football much? I know you coach/coached and I'm presuming you ref at grassroots. It's there every week. The quote again attributed to Howard Webb is "consistency within a game". I see inconsistency in nearly every game I watch, be that City every week or pretty much every televised game.

We is the sport of football. Nobody here enjoys the substandard officiating. I would be delighted if it was at a good standard. I want it to improve. I've tried to provide a solution based argument rather than just calling each individual referee shit. I don't think they are, I think they are failed by the system above them. By Webb, by the FA. 

First and foremost the governing body and the PGMOL Leadership. 

There is an us and them created because there is no accountability or acknowledgment that a problem exists. You are a perfect example of that. Total denial of a problem and a lot of deflection. I don't care about an individual referee being demoted. It's irrelevant. I care about the top of the profession acknowledging a problem and taking steps to fix it. They don't and therefore they won't. And the consequence of that is frustration that will manifest itself in anger. 

As someone else said, the issue is systemic. Until its acknowledged it will remain that way. 

I will answer at a later date, but in the meantime.

 

[Three Lions]

On 28/04/2023 at 13:36, Davefevs said:

 

Aside from the example I gave which I found to work out who was fouling and who wasn’t, I found reffing quite straightforward.  I was able to keep up with play, and the feedback was positive in terms of the decisions I made…I think it helped that I was a player and knew the game.

There seems to be this thing that refs dont know the game. Most refs have played the game. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Three Lions said:

There seems to be this thing that refs dont know the game. Most refs have played the game. 

There are a few “last picks in the playground” types who have never played, but yes, I agree, most will’ve played the game, but at what level?

Because the better standard you play, the better understanding you’ll have of what goes on, how clever players are in some of the things they do, that can fool a ref who’s not played (beyond basic levels, e.g. Sunday league) per se.  That’s the point I think the pros are making to refs.

The downside to being a pro ref, is that you have to start young, therefore you probably have to give up playing any decent level of football to climb the ladder….hence why I think there needs to be some fast-tracking of refs with good football playing experience.  The other way is to work closer with clubs…that’s a two-way thing.  I’d assign a ref to each club, you’d have to get around not being assigned to a club in the division you ref in for fear of bias…or rotate them to work with a different club each month.  Something like that.

As it stands there seems to be no desire to sort it out…and it’s getting worse.

I think you said you’re a ref?

What level to do ref / line at?  How old are you (if you don’t mind me asking), what age did you start?  Do you still play / what kind of level?

Finally, I’m not saying the level you played at is the be all and end all, just think it can help.

 

[Three Lions]

Just now, Davefevs said:

There are a few “last picks in the playground” types who have never played, but yes, I agree, most will’ve played the game, but at what level?

Because the better standard you play, the better understanding you’ll have of what goes on, how clever players are in some of the things they do, that can fool a ref who’s not played (beyond basic levels, e.g. Sunday league) per se.  That’s the point I think the pros are making to refs.

The downside to being a pro ref, is that you have to start young, therefore you probably have to give up playing any decent level of football to climb the ladder….hence why I think there needs to be some fast-tracking of refs with good football playing experience.  The other way is to work closer with clubs…that’s a two-way thing.  I’d assign a ref to each club, you’d have to get around not being assigned to a club in the division you ref in for fear of bias…or rotate them to work with a different club each month.  Something like that.

As it stands there seems to be no desire to sort it out…and it’s getting worse.

I think you said you’re a ref?

What level to do ref / line at?  How old are you (if you don’t mind me asking), what age did you start?  Do you still play / what kind of level?

Finally, I’m not saying the level you played at is the be all and end all, just think it can help.

 

Dave loads of kids coming into reffing are not the last picks in the play ground are they? Thats a bit insulting. My Son played and reffed still does and plays at western league level. 

You dont have to start young to be a pro ref. there 13 levels and the first few are not so hard or time consuming to get through then it gets tougher with despite what some on here are sketching refs are going up and down. Some get parked at levels. Top talents dont and its about getting merit. That the sketch. There is now diversity fast tracking., mm not so sure that will improve reffing!! 

The pros making points about   oh they dont know the game dont even know the rules. Murphy and Shearer and Jenas regularly get rules wrong. Shearer has his own rules!!!! On th e wedge they get the BBC should put them as refs course each season. 

Refs are rotated.

Im middle aged. Only played school combination the sundays for decades but what is a good football experience? Collina played at no good level. I dont think it matters so much at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

I said “a few”

I also said “two-way”

I didn’t say “all”

Both sides need to get their act together and work together to improve both sides.

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Three Lions said:

Dave loads of kids coming into reffing are not the last picks in the play ground are they? Thats a bit insulting. My Son played and reffed still does and plays at western league level. 

You dont have to start young to be a pro ref. there 13 levels and the first few are not so hard or time consuming to get through then it gets tougher with despite what some on here are sketching refs are going up and down. Some get parked at levels. Top talents dont and its about getting merit. That the sketch. There is now diversity fast tracking., mm not so sure that will improve reffing!! 

The pros making points about   oh they dont know the game dont even know the rules. Murphy and Shearer and Jenas regularly get rules wrong. Shearer has his own rules!!!! On th e wedge they get the BBC should put them as refs course each season. 

Refs are rotated.

Im middle aged. Only played school combination the sundays for decades but what is a good football experience? Collina played at no good level. I dont think it matters so much at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd certainly be interested to see the pundits ref a few matches without all the replays and without  VAR too. They could then share both their experiences and their excuses.

Perhaps they could also do a stint in the VAR box aswell and share their reasons for their decisions?

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Midred said:

I'd certainly be interested to see the pundits ref a few matches without all the replays and without  VAR too. They could then share both their experiences and their excuses.

Perhaps they could also do a stint in the VAR box aswell and share their reasons for their decisions?

Yep, agree.  That’s why I think they all need to work together.

A classic example of stupid punditry is “that wouldn’t have been a red card in my day / 30 years ago”.  What a ridiculous justification. 

[Midred]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, agree.  That’s why I think they all need to work together.

A classic example of stupid punditry is “that wouldn’t have been a red card in my day / 30 years ago”.  What a ridiculous justification. 

Also "they felt contact so they were entitled to go down."

Depends which team, player, referee I suppose?

[Three Lions]

On 02/05/2023 at 13:27, Midred said:

I'd certainly be interested to see the pundits ref a few matches without all the replays and without  VAR too. They could then share both their experiences and their excuses.

Perhaps they could also do a stint in the VAR box aswell and share their reasons for their decisions?

I think pundits and coaches and managers should take courses on the rules. The FA does run seminars for Managers and coache soin the rules and rule changes and do all the club turn up??? Make knowing the rules and cpd manadatory part of the gaffers coaching badge, and any coach.

On 02/05/2023 at 14:14, Midred said:

Also "they felt contact so they were entitled to go down."

Depends which team, player, referee I suppose?

And theres one. What do the rules say. Entitled!!

[Sir Geoff]

On 02/05/2023 at 11:59, Three Lions said:

Dave loads of kids coming into reffing are not the last picks in the play ground are they? Thats a bit insulting. My Son played and reffed still does and plays at western league level. 

You dont have to start young to be a pro ref. there 13 levels and the first few are not so hard or time consuming to get through then it gets tougher with despite what some on here are sketching refs are going up and down. Some get parked at levels. Top talents dont and its about getting merit. That the sketch. There is now diversity fast tracking., mm not so sure that will improve reffing!! 

The pros making points about   oh they dont know the game dont even know the rules. Murphy and Shearer and Jenas regularly get rules wrong. Shearer has his own rules!!!! On th e wedge they get the BBC should put them as refs course each season. 

Refs are rotated.

Im middle aged. Only played school combination the sundays for decades but what is a good football experience? Collina played at no good level. I dont think it matters so much at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pedant alert !!!  As someone in the know, why do you keep referring to the Laws of the game as rules ?

[Three Lions]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Pedant alert !!!  As someone in the know, why do you keep referring to the Laws of the game as rules ?

Fair play but as your itk if i started chucking LOTG DOGSO etc about people would be!!?? Laws have rule sand so do competitions. what matters is that people understand you. 

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

I definitely agree with your point about Coaches at all levels requiring some form of officiating training and qualification, it would be of benefit to the game.

However, and at risk of repeating myself, it is only one side of the issue. If you clarify what the rules are with coaches, especially at the pro level, then it will become even more contentious when a decision is wildly incorrect or a game is refereed inconsistently.

As I've said numerous times, the only logical fix is to tighten the rules and where possible remove the interpretation element of officiating. Only then will we see consistency and only then will we see people who's livelihoods and professional success are so impacted by officiating inconsistency "get on board". 

This has never been an issue of individual incompetence, although there are some like Keith Stroud who do fall into that category, it is about a lack of leadership and a lack of understanding of what is required.

Refs need to start pushing for this, it will help them and more importantly, it will help the game. 

Unfortunately there seems to be an unwillingness to accept any fault (on either side probably) and that means we will continue down the path of Referee's being held in disdain. To clarify, I think that is wrong. I just understand why that sentiment is gaining traction. 

Thats what been occurring. Every season Ifab have been trying to make lotg/ rules clearer. Having managers and coaches during mandatory education might improve their understanding because in football total consistency can never happen. take handball there are many things to consider. You might want to think about excessive force and dangerous play their not exact and they can be.

Managers will always want these thing to be exact when it favours them and not it doesnt the marvellous coach that is Jergen Klopp is blind to  dangerous and reckless play and a understanding  right species when things dont go his way, his players? Acting like ***** and across the game people see that and more people think its fine to act like ***** because amongst the best do it. 

Refs need to start pushing back  for respect of the game. In Spain their threatening to go on strike due to abuse. The likes of Klopp need lengthy bans because 100%  their behaviour is a cancer on football.