Wage budget

[Red-Robbo]

21 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I think there is a level of confusion about Andy King’s likely wages.

Probably not helped by his illustrious career, which with the greatest of respect to him, was fairly long in the past when he joined us.

When we signed him he was without a club, trained a week or two with us pre season to even earn a contract & in the previous season had only made one sub appearance in the Belgian league.

I would be surprised therefore if he’s on any more than circa £6k, he’s effectively in a dual role, a coach & a back up player if we have injuries or suspensions.

James is probably on at least double that, Wells we know took a sizeable pay cut in exchange for 2 extra years but again similar ballpark figure.

I reckon we are all looking for something that’s no longer there, a Kalas type wage earner.

 

So is it your view, Gray, that we're not among the top wage-payers in this division?  That's my view, but we've heard that line trotted out in the media. 

[97Red]

14 minutes ago, mozo said:

Or... if everything you've detailed was part fo the plan, Lansdown should be able now to acknowledge as much and to publicly give Pearson his share of the credit for an epic overhaul of the accounts.

The irony of our owner doing that. Bearing in mind this is someone who has made his fortune in the investments and financial industry. The proof is in the pudding. Our accounts don't lie. Major losses during Ashton's and Johnson's Tenure with a sky high wage budget. Our net costs have dropped significantly since then, plus increased revenue through the sales of Scott/Semenyo. With regards to our forthcoming accounts, Fevs and Mr P have run the numbers for them. They'll be pretty much in the ballpark I expect with their projections. 

He'll never come out and say 'Thanks Nige for digging us out a massive hole, oh by the way, which I got us into in the first place by having my arms pulled by LJ and MA'. But, it doesn't take a genius mathematician to see that's effectively what is going on/has gone on. 

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What has been misconstrued is RG saying in last years FF that we can compete with top10 for the right players,  e.g. OOC / £free where we can push the boundaries a bit in wages because the overall cost is just wages (and other fees).  He didn’t say we are paying all players top10 wages.

 

I think we knew as matters stand, we couldn't compete with PP recipients, but I'm concerned about Pearson saying he can't get more in because he's at the limit of what he can spend on wages when, by your estimate, we're bottom third of the Championship, for overall wages.

Sort of suggests the club's prepared to settle for a bottom-third finish, which fans, and Pearson, certainly won't be happy with. 

[Kid in the Riot]

33 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

The 2012/13 season should serve as a warning.

McInnes had his budget slashed by 50% and recruited poor players.

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

You could certainly argue that a lot of things point towards Lansdown and Pearson agreeing this will be his final year - he had a job to do for 3 years: stop the freefall towards L1, cut costs, stabilise, leave the club in good shape for someone else to take forward. Time's up.  

So what we need now is a manager with a Dilly Ding Dilly Dong catchphrase. 

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, slartibartfast said:

Make that three................any advance ?

I could move to Downend…?

[Fuber]

2 hours ago, brad blit said:

I answered a similar question in another thread recently and said this -

"In terms of answering this ‘theoretical’ question in the most basic manner, I think the best player to sell to free up wages would be Wells. Not scored a goal in open play for over 20 games, one of our biggest earners and one of older players. If I was playing Champ Manager, I’d sell him and use his wages (plus revenue from Scott sale) to buy 1 strong quick striker to lead the line (Like Afobe, Akpom) and another young specialised centre back"

Except this isnt CM.

And Wells is at an age where he can easily see out his remaining contract and not wish to move and would require parties to be interested in him in the first instance.

Being blunt, we're in by far a healthy enough position with FFP, in combination with wage reductions in the past 8 months, to allow NP to bring in two players such as those suggested.

We'd take the hit this season, but then have James, King, Williams, and Weimann OOC to rebalance the books, by which point you would hope some academy players such as Yeboah and Araoye or OTC have been blooded fully, or we sign younger players on free to offset (such as was done with Sykes, Naismith).

SL has stupidly got it in his head we can pull a Luton - issue being you need momentum (such as culture AND investment) to pull it off.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Fuber

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Except this isnt CM.

And Wells is at an age where he can easily see out his remaining contract and not wish to move and would require parties to be interested in him in the first instance.

Being blunt, we're in by far a healthy enough position with FFP, in combination with wage reductions in the past 8 months, to allow NP to bring in two players such as those suggested.

We'd take the hit this season, but then have James, King, Williams, and Weimann OOC to rebalance the books, by which point you would hope some academy players such as Yeboah and Araoye or OTC have been blooded fully, or we sign younger players on free to offset (such as was done with Sykes, Naismith).

SL has stupidly got it in his head we can pull a Luton - issue being you need momentum (such as culture AND investment) to pull it off.

Luton also had quite a bit more depth and while I don't mean quality depth but enough that a few injuries may not derail so even that comparison by SL is sketchy.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[exAtyeoMax]

and I was so optimistic before the start of the season… 

 

[Rob k]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

But unlikely to be on more than £15k p.w.

Plus a hefty signing on fee I’d imagine (of which I’ve no idea what pot that comes out of) 

[Silvio Dante]

The irony of someone bringing up the “five pillars” is that they weren’t inherently a bad thing - and Nige has delivered on them more than any other manager since their inception (on the ones he can impact). IIRC the pillars were:

- Investment in the academy and production of home grown players Big tick in the box for Nige for facilitating the pathway 

- Community Engagement Not necessarily NPs remit but club do well here - think of the donation of food etc

- Improved stadium facilities Not in NPs control - achieved

- Signing players under 24 primarily achieved

- Operating sensibly financially As the figures prove, NP has achieved this absolutely 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

8 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

and I was so optimistic before the start of the season… 

 

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Plus a hefty signing on fee I’d imagine (of which I’ve no idea what pot that comes out of) 

Firstly it will be paid as wages / PAYE and likely to be spread over the term of his contract.

I don’t know how hefty signing on fees are / were last summer following covid.  Not as hefty as before covid though.

I don’t think we are talking about alleged signing on fee Tomlin got to artificially make his basic fall into line with the rest of the squad.  And then he came in and told the rest of the players what he got anyway!

[nebristolred]

1 hour ago, Wade Wilson said:

Here’s what I don’t get, and maybe it’s the Football Manager player in me, but can’t we just allocate some of the Scott money to the wage budget? Like we just got 25 million and we’re not gonna spend any of that when we desperately need to because, what, we’ve maxed out some arbitrarily low wage budget? It’s insane.

I'm pretty sure that we theoretically could, but obviously that's not ideal practice and it's the exact sort of behaviour that got us into a mess previously. You chuck that at the wage budget and but then in 2 or 3 years time when you still have that high wage bill but you haven't made another £25m in sales you're then ****ed.

It's certainly an interesting situation - SL has never really been afraid to spend money before so there must be a reason behind it. I doubt he's falling on hard times, though the losses are undoubtedly adding up.

Perhaps a takeover or other investment is close, and potential buyers want to see some sort of financial stability/security before taking the leap? I'm struggling to think of any other scenario to be honest. With a lot of clubs tightening their budgets and with us making a fair bit in fees, you'd think (from my entirely uneducated perspective that is) that this would be a tactically ideal time to push the boat out a bit. I'm really intrigued by this, it's pretty perplexing. As much as many criticise SL, it's pretty rate for him to reign it in like this.

Overall, I think this once again reinforces that Nige is doing a pretty damn good job given what he has had to work with financially.

Edited August 30, 2023 by nebristolred

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  Think we just had a load of crap player being paid too much!

So was I.

I’ve gone from - surely Nige was bluffing about maxing out the wage budget

To - SL is setting Nige up to fail and it’s gonna be a long season

I think we will know much more by the next international break (not this one).  Hoping we will know more about:

Conway

McCrorie

Atkinson

Weimann

and even Benarous

If we have line of sight on their return (even if it’s bad news) we can ready our expectations.

Never been SLs biggest fan but his recent public speaks have really p’d me off Dave

 

If he wants to come out and say ,
 

‘I’m not prepared to cover the same losses so our budget has changed , I do understand that may mean fans have to accept we are looking still to build, under Nigel ,  but our main aim at the moment is to stabilise in this division with the changes, anything above that is a bonus’

 

I could live with that 

 

Instead we get waffle about promotion and top 6 

If Lansdown gets rid of NP , he and the bed wetters,  may get the club , and division they deserve

Edited August 30, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

I doubt he's falling on hard times, though the losses are undoubtedly adding up.

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We need to go Johnny Foreigner, yes! At last, someone catches on (to what I have been pointing out, occasionally, on here, for many a year now). Steve needs to widen his search for his next head coach, people all over the planet manage and coach football  (who knew) and many of them (who knew) are better at it than our brave English Nigels and Lees/blokes (bless 'em). There's even studies and stats to back this up (feast yer eyes, Davefevs and that Ajax lad). Fact is, English blokes aren't that good and you don't need to "know the league." 

Look how international the Championship is now, then cast and eye over Bristol City: It’s like Brexit's last stand. Even Burnley have gone abroad.

Abroad, you say? How about Guernsey?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

Apparently Jon has asked if he can help with the design and get the windmills , the houses with holes through the middle and curly ramps made up 

[Merrick's Marvels]

47 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I seem to recall that the publication of our annual accounts after McInnes left showed that the budget hadn't been slashed anywhere near by 50%. It reduced, but not that significantly. 

Christ, how much were we paying Richard Foster!!!

Answer - too much, whatever it was. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

A few lively home games, with shots on goal, things to make the crowd "ooo" and "ahhh" occasionally, and cheers at the final whistle, and smiles all round. He needs to do something to cheer/stir the bleedin place up

[B-Rizzle]

13 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The irony of someone bringing up the “five pillars” is that they weren’t inherently a bad thing - and Nige has delivered on them more than any other manager since their inception (on the ones he can impact). IIRC the pillars were:

- Investment in the academy and production of home grown players Big tick in the box for Nige for facilitating the pathway 

- Community Engagement Not necessarily NPs remit but club do well here - think of the donation of food etc

- Improved stadium facilities Not in NPs control - achieved

- Signing players under 24 primarily achieved

- Operating sensibly financially As the figures prove, NP has achieved this absolutely 

So, he’s done everything that the only coherent strategy SL has espoused has demanded. What more can he do and what more can SL want?

 

I agree with you but also think your post sums up entirely what the issue is…

What more could Pearson do? Answer: coach a successful football team. Make us better than the sum of our parts. Get us winning more games than losing and get us climbing the league? Sound like a big ask, it is but that’s literally the job of a football manager/ head coach.

All those things you list are things the club have achieve that aren’t primarily NPs role. He hasn’t lowered the wage bill, improved the academy pathway and singed young players. He’s worked in a wider team that have achieved those things. Credit to him that he’s been willing to do that and certainly credit to him in being bold with playing young players but I don’t buy into giving him credit for financial matters - THAT IS NOT HIS JOB.

And all this is precisely why I’m not 100% sold on him as we’re pretty bang average and have been the entire time under his tenure. I think SL also feels this and that’s why I don’t think we’ll see him here loads longer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

The funny thing is his Guernsey ventures could be mutually beneficial to club and the venture. Financially anyway.

They could sponsor at fair rates or partner with us. Their profile is raised on the mainland, we get a bit more cash into the club legitimately. Not talking crazy out of whack deals that will come back to bite us obviously.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sheltons Army]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The funny thing is his Guernsey ventures could be mutually beneficial to club and the venture. Financially anyway.

They could sponsor at fair rates or partner with us. Their profile is raised on the mainland, we get a bit more cash into the club legitimately. Not talking crazy out of whack deals that will come back to bite us obviously.

He sounded far more enthusiastic about his golf course than City in that Guernsey interview

I don’t  think it’s about money Mr P , more about interest , with money / budget reflecting 

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Abroad, you say? How about Guernsey?

Announce Tony Vance

9 minutes ago, B-Rizzle said:

I agree with you but also think your post sums up entirely what the issue is…

What more could Pearson do? Answer: coach a successful football team. Make us better than the sum of our parts. Get us winning more games than losing and get us climbing the league? Sound like a big ask, it is but that’s literally the job of a football manager/ head coach.

All those things you list are things the club have achieve that aren’t primarily NPs role. He hasn’t lowered the wage bill, improved the academy pathway and singed young players. He’s worked in a wider team that have achieved those things. Credit to him that he’s been willing to do that and certainly credit to him in being bold with playing young players but I don’t buy into giving him credit for financial matters - THAT IS NOT HIS JOB.

And all this is precisely why I’m not 100% sold on him as we’re pretty bang average and have been the entire time under his tenure. I think SL also feels this and that’s why I don’t think we’ll see him here loads longer.

But his ability to do HIS JOB is impacted by all those things.  Just look at the players he’s had to get rid of.

Judging by the criticism on here of most of the players, isn’t he achieving more than the sum of the parts?

I’d say that with such a shallow squad over the last two seasons to have avoided a relegation scrap is at least achieving the objective, if not bettering what could’ve been expected.

This season was the first time to try to kick forward.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

He sounded far more enthusiastic about his golf course than City in that Guernsey interview

I don’t  think it’s about money Mr P , more about interest , with money / budget reflecting 

Yeah that's a shame Sheltons. Still would be mutually beneficial marketing wise probably.

His right of course if he no longer wishes to stick the annual cash losses in or reduce them but a shame for us fans all the same. 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

So is it your view, Gray, that we're not among the top wage-payers in this division?  That's my view, but we've heard that line trotted out in the media. 

No longer, no.

Think there was a time when we certainly were.

Was thinking about the first retained list NP had, in addition to those I mentioned before (the likes of Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Wells, Palmer etc) we then also had Diedhiou, Paterson, Hunt & Lansbury on board.

Our side now is littered with Academy products & signings from League One, just can’t see it.

[Lew-T]

It’s stating the bloody obvious but we really need a change of direction upstairs. New ownership can’t come soon enough…

[frenchred]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

SL The Magpie - has a new shiny golf course to invest in!

And he's pissing off the locals with what he's doing there!

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, GrahamC said:

No longer, no.

Think there was a time when we certainly were.

Was thinking about the first retained list NP had, in addition to those I mentioned before (the likes of Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Wells, Palmer etc) we then also had Diedhiou, Paterson, Hunt & Lansbury on board.

Our side now is littered with Academy products & signings from League One, just can’t see it.

Correct - and a couple of semi anecdotal aspects here.  Kalas was offered a deal and didn’t take it, moving to a Bundesliga 2 side in preference (albeit a big one). I’d be confident that the top section of our division pay in line with Shalke.

Vyner is holding out on a new deal that’s been on the table and Swansea are supposed to be in. I don’t see any way that they’re top 6-8 payers even with the Piroe money (we’re not with the Scott money after all), and if they can do a deal and we can’t it indicates we pay less.

The base makeup of the squad suggests a bottom third budget based on acquisition (if not ability). That we were middle third last season and hoped for more this while NP has sold key assets shows to me the job he’s done

[CyderInACan]

2 hours ago, RedRoss said:

Come on I know there's several reasons to berate SL at the moment but it's inconceivable that LJ will be coming back. I'll bet my house on it.

I hope you have a spare house . . .