See it. Hear it. Report it

[Wedontplayinblue]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Why is it terrible? What do I deny him? 

Not citizenship - that will either be British or Albanian depending on his parent's citizenship. No one is an "English" citizen, and no one has an "English" passport because England isn't a sovereign state. Geographically it's a residual historical region of the UK and there's a genetic heritage (that forms somewhere between 2023 and the 800s). As an aside, the UK does not hand out British citizenship based on birth location (that's a New World thing) so your assertion of him being "English" because he was born in England is meaningless.

Nor do I deny him heritage. That again depends on his parent's genetics and heritage. I could have been born in Hong Kong but I wouldn't be Cantonese would I.

If he interacts with and exhibits the behaviour of English culture then fine, but that no more makes him English than I was Caymanian whilst I lived abroad. If interaction with a culture defined identity then all the expats on the Costa del Sol are Spanish.

My son was born in the Cayman Islands, but he's obviously not Caymanian. He's got a British passport and has English heritage. He may apply for Caymanian citizenship one day, but he's never going to have Caymanian heritage. Over there they'd call him a "paper" Caymanian and he would have fewer rights than "heritage" Caymanians.

I've got no idea about Max, but I'd guess he's an Irish citizen with Irish heritage. 

Your son was born in the Cayman Islands, which makes him caymanian with British/English heritage.

Anis, was born in London, which is in england, which means he is English but with Albanian heritage. 

If you were born in the Cantonese region of Hong Kong, then yes of course you would be Cantonese.

Ex pats in the costa del sol can’t be Spanish as they were not born there, they might get Spanish citizenship but that does not change where they were born.

You seem really confused with all of this, you are basically saying you can only be English if you act English? That’s borderline racist and xenophobic, what makes someone English?

Would you class Rishi Sunak as English as he was born in Southampton or Indian? Is he English enough? 
 

What about English players in the national team, who parents were born abroad, are they English? 
 

If Anis decided to play for England and not Albania (if he was good enough), does he magically become English? He certainly wouldn’t had been able to play for wales, Scotland or north Ireland, as he isn’t welsh, Scottish or northern Irish but he is English. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Wedontplayinblue]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

If their mother was of English heritage then partially yes. But otherwise no I'd probably not class them as English just because (and assuming they were) born in "England". They'd also not necessarily be British citizens either.

English is a vague heritage, and I said I don't know exactly when English as a heritage would have crystallised. I guess I wonder if the answer is similar to - and I don't know the answer here either - the point someone can be considered Cantonese, or Igbo, or Navajo.

You are talking rubbish, if you were born in any of part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you’re automatically a British citizen. 

[View from the Dolman]

12 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

You are talking rubbish, if you were born in any of part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you’re automatically a British citizen. 

Wrong. That's why there's an application process for it.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-born-uk

[RedM]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Problem is that when you do report something, even if you have evidence, nothing gets done about it.

Absolutely not the case at AG, they do take the reports very seriously indeed, whether it be racism, homophobia etc. What have you personally reported that wasn't dealt with?

[Wedontplayinblue]

39 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Wrong. That's why there's an application process for it.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-born-uk

When you do not need to apply

You’re usually automatically a British citizen if you were both:

• born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983
• born when one of your parents was a British citizen or ‘settled’ in the UK

————/
So anyone born here in the last 40 years is automatically British, anyone born here moving forward is British.

even then before 1983, you’re basically british too 

You were born before 1983

You’re automatically a British citizen if you were born in the UK before 1 January 1983, unless:

• your father was a diplomat working for a non-UK country
• your father was ‘an enemy alien in occupation’ and you were born in the Channel Islands during World War 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[View from the Dolman]

8 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

When you do not need to apply

You’re usually automatically a British citizen if you were both:

• born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983
• born when one of your parents was a British citizen or ‘settled’ in the UK

————/
So anyone born here in the last 40 years is automatically British, anyone born here moving forward is British.

even then before 1983, you’re basically british too 

You were born before 1983

You’re automatically a British citizen if you were born in the UK before 1 January 1983, unless:

• your father was a diplomat working for a non-UK country
• your father was ‘an enemy alien in occupation’ and you were born in the Channel Islands during World War 

Nope, you're not reading it correctly. 

If you are born here today, you only get British citizenship automatically if "one of your parents was a British citizen or ‘settled’ in the UK" at the time of your birth.

[Red Skin]

5 hours ago, Red Skin said:

Very good article in the last OSIB mag about an Muslim Asian City fan and his experiences at games. Sadly, it's still a thing.  Maybe @Shtanley could share?

As a white male I really have to look the those on the receiving end to gauge its effect.  I'm sure some of subtlety and nuance is lost on me.

Personally, I'm still pretty shocked by the amount of boos from our fans on the rare occasions opposition players take the knees.  No one will ever convince this is some political conspiracy by BTM.  It's just veiled racism. 

Of course I mean BLM Black Lives Matter.  Not BTM Bristol Temple Meads.  Bloody dyslexia!!  

Well done the club.

[reddoh]

7 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Of course I mean BLM Black Lives Matter.  Not BTM Bristol Temple Meads.  Bloody dyslexia!!  

Well done the club.

BTM are not racist they let everyone down.

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

 

I've got no idea about Max, but I'd guess he's an Irish citizen with Irish heritage. 

He is, I’m definitely not responding to some bizarre & frankly disturbing views expressed on this thread but Max has an Irish passport by virtue of his Grandfather being from County Kerry.

Under national football eligibility rules you can qualify to play for a nation if any of your parents or grandparents were born there.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

Absolutely not the case at AG, they do take the reports very seriously indeed, whether it be racism, homophobia etc. What have you personally reported that wasn't dealt with?

I have to respectfully disagree. 

For as long as I can remember I've had issues with the people sat behind me and my children. All sorts of vile language for the entire game. 

Every morning after a game I'm sending emails to the club. Always promise to look into it but never get back to me. 

I now use the voice recorder on my phone which picks it up and still nothing gets done. 

I've reported it to stewards on the day but they just shut up when they see me approach a steward. 

I've text the abuse line and nothing gets done. 

I'm literally at the point now where I feel as if reporting it is pointless because nothing gets done.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I have to respectfully disagree. 

For as long as I can remember I've had issues with the people sat behind me and my children. All sorts of vile language for the entire game. 

Every morning after a game I'm sending emails to the club. Always promise to look into it but never get back to me. 

I now use the voice recorder on my phone which picks it up and still nothing gets done. 

I've reported it to stewards on the day but they just shut up when they see me approach a steward. 

I've text the abuse line and nothing gets done. 

I'm literally at the point now where I feel as if reporting it is pointless because nothing gets done.

It's a daft question perhaps but:

1) How frequent is it.

2) Swearing...Or other stuff?

3) Have you given their seat numbers, rows, blocks etc? If near you it shouldn't be that difficult to find.

[Kid in the Riot]

47 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He is, I’m definitely not responding to some bizarre & frankly disturbing views expressed on this thread but Max has an Irish passport by virtue of his Grandfather being from County Kerry.

Under national football eligibility rules you can qualify to play for a nation if any of your parents or grandparents were born there.

The Irish situation is pretty unique though. Presumably I could qualify to play for the Republic via my Northern Irish, Protestant, Catholic-hating grandmother who died before I was born? 

[Rebounder]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

Great post and spot on.

However...what pisses me off the most, is as soon as the ' racist' term is used, it's immediately seen as white being racist against black. 

Imo..it's the other way these days. 

Whites are now constantly questioning what they say etc...

I know I'll get flack for this...but for every ' Black awards ceremonies ' for various Profession's in life...( Google it)...imagine the furore if we had white awards ceremonies.

It's freakin broken...and imo considerably devisive. 

I literally don't see colour like you implied..until it's put in a title and made a point of. 

It's nuts.

It's definitely this way around especially in football.

It's always white people getting abused for the colour of their skin in games, and online. After England went out of the Euros the abuse white players got was shocking compared to our black players. Accross Europe it isn't Black players being racially abused with monkey chants, but white players are always getting racially abused on a daily basis and this is especially true in Eastern Europe. Not enough people talk about this, and I blame the MSM, WEF and Bill Gates for this tragedy. 

It's awful that white people now have to think if they are being racist before they say something that is definitely *not* racist.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Rebounder

[ZiderEyed]

8 hours ago, Red Skin said:

Very good article in the last OSIB mag about an Muslim Asian City fan and his experiences at games. Sadly, it's still a thing.  Maybe @Shtanley could share?

As a white male I really have to look the those on the receiving end to gauge its effect.  I'm sure some of subtlety and nuance is lost on me.

Personally, I'm still pretty shocked by the amount of boos from our fans on the rare occasions opposition players take the knees.  No one will ever convince this is some political conspiracy by BTM.  It's just veiled racism. 

I knew Bristol Temple Meads were up to something.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's a daft question perhaps but:

1) How frequent is it.

2) Swearing...Or other stuff?

3) Have you given their seat numbers, rows, blocks etc? If near you it shouldn't be that difficult to find.

Every 20 seconds or so right in the ears of my children and mine. 

It gets even worse when we're not winning. 

Its pretty much most things that you can imagine. Generally it is the constant foul language but also mixed in with racism and homophobia. 

Yep given all the details as the sests directly behind us. 

The best I've had from the club is we'll look into it and we can move your seats which really annoyed me. 

 

[Wanderingred]

We all know racism is wrong but sometimes it takes being on the end of a racist slur to truly appreciate just how vile and hurtful it is. I live in China and I’ve been called “white ghost” and told to “go back to my country” a couple of times. It’s not a memory that ever goes away.

Of course white on black racism may be seen to carry more weight and stigma due to historical context and that’s an understandable viewpoint imho. That said, if somebody feels that they’ve been a victim of racism, then whatever skin colour they are, or whatever the background of the abuser, they should have their allegations treated seriously.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Wanderingred

[ExiledAjax]

9 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Your son was born in the Cayman Islands, which makes him caymanian with British/English heritage.

He is not Caymanian. The Cayman. Islands does not dispense citizenship based on birth location. My son has not a drop of Caymanian blood in him. He may have a birth certificate from there but he is not Caymanian. They would laugh at this statement over there.

Anis, was born in London, which is in england, which means he is English but with Albanian heritage. 

Again, "English" is not a citizenship. It is either a genetic heritage/ethnicity that formed some time in the last 1,000 years from Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Norman, and Brythonic blood, or it's a manner of cultural behaviour typical of the inhabitants of a certain part of the island of Great Britain. Neither of these things is achieved simply by the virtue of being born in London.

If you were born in the Cantonese region of Hong Kong, then yes of course you would be Cantonese.

I really wouldn't.

Ex pats in the costa del sol can’t be Spanish as they were not born there, they might get Spanish citizenship but that does not change where they were born.

You seem really confused with all of this, you are basically saying you can only be English if you act English? That’s borderline racist and xenophobic, what makes someone English?

See above.

Would you class Rishi Sunak as English as he was born in Southampton or Indian? Is he English enough? 

Obviously he's not English. I assume he's got a British passport so he's British with Indian heritage.

What about English players in the national team, who parents were born abroad, are they English? 

That depends on their heritage doesn't it.

If Anis decided to play for England and not Albania (if he was good enough), does he magically become English? He certainly wouldn’t had been able to play for wales, Scotland or north Ireland, as he isn’t welsh, Scottish or northern Irish but he is English. 

No of course not. Plenty of people play for nations without being "from" that nation. The rules of eligibility for a national football team are not the same as those for citizenship.

Sorry mate. You are very confused about a) the derivation of citizenship, b) genetic heritage, c) cultural activity, and d) football team eligibility. These things are not the same, nor are they achieved in the same way.

You're also, as @View from the Dolman has pointed out to you, fundamentally misunderstanding how this country (and many others) hands out citizenship.

10 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Yeah fair - I certainly agree with your second paragraph. It's so poorly defined I think you could make a case for multiple view points. People who tend to think about it a lot are also either very interesting or very unpleasant people!

Well hopefully I am the former. I'm not a raving Eng-er-lander, in fact I'd never even call myself English - I'm British. I'm also not trying to deny anyone their citizenship or their identity. Mehmeti, Sunak, my french mate from uni, all might have British citizenship and passports, but I know that certainly the third in that list would never, ever, call himself English. It's also only since living abroad, reading up on the way you obtain British citizenship (due to having a child abroad), and looking back at this country that the weirdness of all this became obvious.

Edited October 7, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[robinforlife2]

15 hours ago, bearded_red said:

As you say, not that it matters, but he’s certainly not a Brexiter.

Bloody Remoaner  . Knew we should have kept Johnson 

[Isawjonshaw]

17 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

I’m not calling Pearson a racist by any stretch as he clearly isn’t, but he does come across as a type of manager who likes hard working brexit means brexit type players. 

I’d probably put a bet on that most of his signings, if not all, have been white British or Irish players. 

just when you think you've read it all

[GrahamC]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The Irish situation is pretty unique though. Presumably I could qualify to play for the Republic via my Northern Irish, Protestant, Catholic-hating grandmother who died before I was born? 

Yes, my wife would be in exactly the same boat.

As a result of the GFA everyone in the North has both the right to Irish citizenship & could theoretically choose to play for either side.

Loads of Unionists have taken advantage of the passport option..

[2015]

19 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

I’m not calling Pearson a racist by any stretch as he clearly isn’t, but he does come across as a type of manager who likes hard working brexit means brexit type players. 

I’d probably put a bet on that most of his signings, if not all, have been white British or Irish players. 

Utter nonsense.

[RedM]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I have to respectfully disagree. 

For as long as I can remember I've had issues with the people sat behind me and my children. All sorts of vile language for the entire game. 

Every morning after a game I'm sending emails to the club. Always promise to look into it but never get back to me. 

I now use the voice recorder on my phone which picks it up and still nothing gets done. 

I've reported it to stewards on the day but they just shut up when they see me approach a steward. 

I've text the abuse line and nothing gets done. 

I'm literally at the point now where I feel as if reporting it is pointless because nothing gets done.

That's not good. I've heard a few incidents that have been reported during the match to the abuse line by text and the stewards have not only acted with total discression but made follow up calls to the person that had cause to complain too. 

Emails just seem to get lost amongst the 100's of other enquiries, but a text to the abuse line during the match has apparently been affective

[The Bard]

21 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

I’m not calling Pearson a racist by any stretch as he clearly isn’t, but he does come across as a type of manager who likes hard working brexit means brexit type players. 

I’d probably put a bet on that most of his signings, if not all, have been white British or Irish players. 

 

Brexit means Brexit is some measure of toughness is it? 

For people with IQs below 70 maybe.

 2 things have nothing to do with each other and that the phrase is a rather desperate attempt by a certain brand of politician to popularize their political goals in tough man language.

It's pitiful.

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

We all know racism is wrong but sometimes it takes being on the end of a racist slur to truly appreciate just how vile and hurtful it is. I live in China and I’ve been called “white ghost” and told to “go back to my country” a couple of times. It’s not a memory that ever goes away.

Of course white on black racism may be seen to carry more weight and stigma due to historical context and that’s an understandable viewpoint imho. That said, if somebody feels that they’ve been a victim of racism, then whatever skin colour they are, or whatever the background of the abuser, they should have their allegations treated seriously.

At the top of the game, racism and all forms of discrimination is rightfully treated very seriously. 

But the further you go down the game, from the top of clubs to the bottom, it becomes less serious. "Its just banter init" I get told. 

I've been the victim of hate speech and like you say it's not a memory that ever goes away. Especially when you call someone out for it and they then turn it on yourself by calling you a snowflake or that you're too sensitive and that you need to man up.

Those attitudes can cause deep psychological problems in the victim. It then prevents things being reported because the victim then starts to believe that everyone has that same attitude and that their complaint won't be taken seriously and that then enables further discrimination. 

I know a young disabled adult. Lovely guy. He was trolled by a person online about his disability. The troll is a footballer that plays at a decent semi pro level. He sent this lad thousands of vile messages. Comparing him to Harvey Price, calling him all the vile names you can think of. 

I went through all the FA rules and they are very clear. It says stuff such as participants shall never engage in any form of online hate speech, discrimination, bullying, harassment etc. The perpetrator tried to hide behind the fact it was in private but we provided the FA rules to him which said due to the nature of the messages the right to privacy may not exist. We sent this guy all the rules etc. He laughed it off. Said he knew people within his local FA that would make it go away. 

This guy is also a Uefa B coach, it absolutely terrifies me that this man is out there coaching children, potentially disabled children. 

We repeatedly asked him to stop as it had a huge impact on this lads mental health. To the point where the lad was sending me messages saying he was considering self harming. 

So on his behalf I gathered all the evidence and sent it to that guys local FA. Didn't recieve a response. So I then contacted them again complaining I'd not recieved a response. They then replied asking for additional info which we provided, and not had a response from them. 

This guy continues to bully this lad on a daily basis and actively mocks him for reporting him to the FA and the FA not doing anything about it. Last night he sent him a message gloating because he's playing in a game today. 

There are some really good people within football, however by and large the sport is rotten to the core with outdated attitudes and people who enable those vile behaviours. 

They all scream from the rooftops about how seriously they take all forms of discrimination but when it comes to it they close ranks to protect their mate who they think is a good guy.

 

[glynriley]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

At the top of the game, racism and all forms of discrimination is rightfully treated very seriously. 

But the further you go down the game, from the top of clubs to the bottom, it becomes less serious. "Its just banter init" I get told. 

I've been the victim of hate speech and like you say it's not a memory that ever goes away. Especially when you call someone out for it and they then turn it on yourself by calling you a snowflake or that you're too sensitive and that you need to man up.

Those attitudes can cause deep psychological problems in the victim. It then prevents things being reported because the victim then starts to believe that everyone has that same attitude and that their complaint won't be taken seriously and that then enables further discrimination. 

I know a young disabled adult. Lovely guy. He was trolled by a person online about his disability. The troll is a footballer that plays at a decent semi pro level. He sent this lad thousands of vile messages. Comparing him to Harvey Price, calling him all the vile names you can think of. 

I went through all the FA rules and they are very clear. It says stuff such as participants shall never engage in any form of online hate speech, discrimination, bullying, harassment etc. The perpetrator tried to hide behind the fact it was in private but we provided the FA rules to him which said due to the nature of the messages the right to privacy may not exist. We sent this guy all the rules etc. He laughed it off. Said he knew people within his local FA that would make it go away. 

This guy is also a Uefa B coach, it absolutely terrifies me that this man is out there coaching children, potentially disabled children. 

We repeatedly asked him to stop as it had a huge impact on this lads mental health. To the point where the lad was sending me messages saying he was considering self harming. 

So on his behalf I gathered all the evidence and sent it to that guys local FA. Didn't recieve a response. So I then contacted them again complaining I'd not recieved a response. They then replied asking for additional info which we provided, and not had a response from them. 

This guy continues to bully this lad on a daily basis and actively mocks him for reporting him to the FA and the FA not doing anything about it. Last night he sent him a message gloating because he's playing in a game today. 

There are some really good people within football, however by and large the sport is rotten to the core with outdated attitudes and people who enable those vile behaviours. 

They all scream from the rooftops about how seriously they take all forms of discrimination but when it comes to it they close ranks to protect their mate who they think is a good guy.

 

Sounds like you need to get the old bill involved.

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Yes, my wife would be in exactly the same boat.

As a result of the GFA everyone in the North has both the right to Irish citizenship & could theoretically choose to play for either side.

 

Mark Sykes being just one Northern Ireland-born example. 

[AnumRed]

23 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, as it must do to some degree as it does in life, but how often do people openly hear racist abuse at city?

I can honestly say in my 30ish years of watching city, I’ve never heard a racist remark. 

Unfortunately cant say the same.

[Wedontplayinblue]

5 hours ago, AnumRed said:

Unfortunately cant say the same.

That is a shame to hear, I guess it’s no different to normal life. If you’re racist outside of football, you are still going to be a racist at football. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

6 hours ago, The Bard said:

 

Brexit means Brexit is some measure of toughness is it? 

For people with IQs below 70 maybe.

 2 things have nothing to do with each other and that the phrase is a rather desperate attempt by a certain brand of politician to popularize their political goals in tough man language.

It's pitiful.

Please have a look at brexit tackles on YouTube, that’s what I meant by brexit means brexit, it wasn’t any relation to brexit.

It’s just a modern day saying for hard tackles, I understand this is probably missed by many. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

11 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sorry mate. You are very confused about a) the derivation of citizenship, b) genetic heritage, c) cultural activity, and d) football team eligibility. These things are not the same, nor are they achieved in the same way.

You're also, as @View from the Dolman has pointed out to you, fundamentally misunderstanding how this country (and many others) hands out citizenship.

Well hopefully I am the former. I'm not a raving Eng-er-lander, in fact I'd never even call myself English - I'm British. I'm also not trying to deny anyone their citizenship or their identity. Mehmeti, Sunak, my french mate from uni, all might have British citizenship and passports, but I know that certainly the third in that list would never, ever, call himself English. It's also only since living abroad, reading up on the way you obtain British citizenship (due to having a child abroad), and looking back at this country that the weirdness of all this became obvious.

You are right, a third of your list , your mate wouldn’t be English, if he is French due to being born in France, if he wasn’t born in France he wouldn’t be French. 

Rishi and Anis are.

Born in English, are English, end of. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue