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[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

You are right, a third of your list , your mate wouldn’t be English, if he is French due to being born in France, if he wasn’t born in France he wouldn’t be French. 

Rishi and Anis are.

Born in English, are English, end of. 

Ok, I'll stop trying to explain things to you. In return, could you please explain something to me: what is "English"?

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

You are right, a third of your list , your mate wouldn’t be English, if he is French due to being born in France, if he wasn’t born in France he wouldn’t be French. 

Rishi and Anis are.

Born in English, are English, end of. 

Haaland was born in England and he's Norwegian. Also, Sterling wasn't born in England and he's English

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Haaland was born in England and he's Norwegian. Also, Sterling wasn't born in England and he's English.

But here when you say "Norwegian" and "English", you're just talking about football team eligibility right? Not citizenship or heritage.

[AshtonGreat]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

But here when you say "Norwegian" and "English", you're just talking about football team eligibility right? Not citizenship or heritage.

No, Haaland is recognised as Norwegian and Sterling is recognised as English. 

[Wedontplayinblue]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ok, I'll stop trying to explain things to you. In return, could you please explain something to me: what is "English"?

English, being born within the country boundaries of England as set out by internationally recognised boundaries. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Southport Red]

On 06/10/2023 at 13:39, DaveF said:

One of the most bizarre things I've ever read on otib.

Are you new here?

[ExiledAjax]

31 minutes ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

English, being born within the country boundaries of England as set out by internationally recognised boundaries. 

Ah. Ok. Now I see why we are at cross-purposes. You are treating England as a country capable of conferring "English" citizenship. This is the "country" that has no government, no monarch, no army, issues no passport, has no citizens, no controlled borders, no sovereign waters, and which ceased to be a sovereign state more than 700 years ago.

No nation "recognises" England as a country and "England" does not engage in any international relations or diplomacy. This is all done by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, a sovereign state, a country.

Therefore we arrive at my conclusion, which is that the only manner in which you, I, Anis Mehmeti, Rishi Sunak, or anyone else in the modern world can be "English" is by genetic heritage or behaviour. The first is a matter of parental fact, the second is a flexible matter of circumstance which counts for naught.

Thus Mehmeti cannot reasonably be considered "English".

39 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

No, Haaland is recognised as Norwegian and Sterling is recognised as English. 

Along similar lines to the above, Norway is a sovereign state, something which England has not been for more than 700 years. You can have a Norwegian passport and be a Norwegian citizen, but you can't have an English passport nor be an English citizen. The two statuses are not equivalent.

Sterling has Jamaican genetic heritage. I don't know if he has a British or Jamaican passport, but it won't be an English one.

[MarcusX]

On 06/10/2023 at 14:45, ExiledAjax said:

Lads it's true.

Honestly, these kidz. Won't someone tell them that Brexit should be used in relation to reclaiming sovereignty of your half of the pitch and getting all the opposition players out of your half.

A "Brexit clearance" would be more apt.

I think it’s a poor attempt to dig his way out of what he said by the poster - but anyway it’s nonsense because we don’t have any players that do this? Last player to fly into tackles consistently like that was Baker.

[MarcusX]

On 06/10/2023 at 19:01, ExiledAjax said:

If their mother was of English heritage then partially yes. But otherwise no I'd probably not class them as English just because (and assuming they were) born in "England". They'd also not necessarily be British citizens either.

English is a vague heritage, and I said I don't know exactly when English as a heritage would have crystallised. I guess I wonder if the answer is similar to - and I don't know the answer here either - the point someone can be considered Cantonese, or Igbo, or Navajo.

Surely it comes down to what the person feels?

My mum is of foreign descent but you wouldn’t know it and she doesn’t really embrace it due to a family fall out.

I on the other hand do embrace that culture and heritage and am proud of that part of me.

My partner was born in England, always lived here except a brief spell in Cardiff for uni, yet both her parents are Welsh. She considers herself English but with Welsh heritage. It’s purely down to the individual and how they identify IMO.

[phantom]

On 06/10/2023 at 15:04, Steve Watts said:

I was a child of the 80's and so grew up with the term coloured being preferred because black was seen as offensive because of the context it was used in - "You black bastard" and all that.  Over the years that viewpoint has swapped over and a lot of people who were adults in that era probably haven't adjusted or see anything wrong with it.

I'm exactly the same, I still find using the word "black" as being of racist connotations but would use the word coloured. 

But when I am in conversation with younger people they often pull me up on this. 

I work with medical colleagues and I still refer to them as Dr *****, even though I am told to call them by their first name. 

It's just the way it was when I was brought up 

[Sixtyseconds]

On 06/10/2023 at 13:47, Harry said:

Considering 52% of the population voted for it, it’s quite disparaging isn’t it. 

Is that a its disparaging to see the disparaging being disparaging so freely disparaging? 

 

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Surely it comes down to what the person feels?

My mum is of foreign descent but you wouldn’t know it and she doesn’t really embrace it due to a family fall out.

I on the other hand do embrace that culture and heritage and am proud of that part of me.

My partner was born in England, always lived here except a brief spell in Cardiff for uni, yet both her parents are Welsh. She considers herself English but with Welsh heritage. It’s purely down to the individual and how they identify IMO.

It's interesting how self-identification feeds into it. I'm about to assume a couple of things about your wife so tell me I get disrespectful here - but your wife is a British citizen, and she's identifying there with two things that are covered by that umbrella of being British. So my question is why doesn't she  say she's British? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I do love some of those tackles, thanks for posting.

Politics aside whoever put the vid together 3 mins well worth it.

When I say great tackles I don't mean technically excellent, aesthetically pleasing etc just mean absolute crazy, nonsense.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Wedontplayinblue]

9 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I think it’s a poor attempt to dig his way out of what he said by the poster - but anyway it’s nonsense because we don’t have any players that do this? Last player to fly into tackles consistently like that was Baker.

Dig my way out of what? Not really sure what I’ve said for myself to have to dig myself out of,

The brexit means brexit meaning was along the same lines as a brexit tackle.

It’s pretty obvious nige wouldn’t allow players to be gung ho but does want a hard working no nonsense player which is what I meant under the same terms as brexit means brexit / brexit tackles. 
 

Not really hard to understand. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Wedontplayinblue]

51 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's interesting how self-identification feeds into it. I'm about to assume a couple of things about your wife so tell me I get disrespectful here - but your wife is a British citizen, and she's identifying there with two things that are covered by that umbrella of being British. So my question is why doesn't she  say she's British? 

As she’s English, so that’s why I imagine she doesn’t say she’s British.

Put it this way, when Scotland becomes independent, NI is integrated back into Ireland and then wales decide to leave too, does everyone then born in England magically become English as there isn’t a union or Britain anymore? But then technically Northern Ireland isn’t part of Britain but of the United Kingdom, so should unionists in NI not feel British as they arnt?

Youre just changing the parameters to suit yourself.

Being English isn’t the same as being welsh, like you said the cultures historically are different, the same with being Scottish but are all bought under the union of being British, you are just making this up as you go along now. 

You still haven’t explained what being English is, or how someone for example with immigrant parents but born in London magically become English?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Wedontplayinblue

[Totterdown's Finest]

On 07/10/2023 at 00:06, Rebounder said:

It's always white people getting abused for the colour of their skin in games, and online. After England went out of the Euros the abuse white players got was shocking compared to our black players. Accross Europe it isn't Black players being racially abused with monkey chants, but white players are always getting racially abused on a daily basis and this is especially true in Eastern Europe. Not enough people talk about this, and I blame the MSM, WEF and Bill Gates for this tragedy. 

I'm sure I'm about to embarrass myself, but this is a joke, yes?

[Hxj]

19 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Along similar lines to the above, Norway is a sovereign state, something which England has not been for more than 700 years. You can have a Norwegian passport and be a Norwegian citizen, but you can't have an English passport nor be an English citizen. The two statuses are not equivalent.

The major problem with your position is that the concept of linking a state to its citizens is a relatively modern concept, it started in the 19th Century, but it wasn't until the aftermath of the First World War that it became of major interest to sovereign states.

I'd also point out that modern Norway came into existence in the early 19th Century.

[Rebounder]

2 hours ago, Totterdown's Finest said:

I'm sure I'm about to embarrass myself, but this is a joke, yes?

Yes forgot the /s.

[Cowshed]

On 07/10/2023 at 11:16, W-S-M Seagull said:

At the top of the game, racism and all forms of discrimination is rightfully treated very seriously. 

But the further you go down the game, from the top of clubs to the bottom, it becomes less serious. "Its just banter init" I get told. 

I've been the victim of hate speech and like you say it's not a memory that ever goes away. Especially when you call someone out for it and they then turn it on yourself by calling you a snowflake or that you're too sensitive and that you need to man up.

Those attitudes can cause deep psychological problems in the victim. It then prevents things being reported because the victim then starts to believe that everyone has that same attitude and that their complaint won't be taken seriously and that then enables further discrimination. 

I know a young disabled adult. Lovely guy. He was trolled by a person online about his disability. The troll is a footballer that plays at a decent semi pro level. He sent this lad thousands of vile messages. Comparing him to Harvey Price, calling him all the vile names you can think of. 

I went through all the FA rules and they are very clear. It says stuff such as participants shall never engage in any form of online hate speech, discrimination, bullying, harassment etc. The perpetrator tried to hide behind the fact it was in private but we provided the FA rules to him which said due to the nature of the messages the right to privacy may not exist. We sent this guy all the rules etc. He laughed it off. Said he knew people within his local FA that would make it go away. 

This guy is also a Uefa B coach, it absolutely terrifies me that this man is out there coaching children, potentially disabled children. 

We repeatedly asked him to stop as it had a huge impact on this lads mental health. To the point where the lad was sending me messages saying he was considering self harming. 

So on his behalf I gathered all the evidence and sent it to that guys local FA. Didn't recieve a response. So I then contacted them again complaining I'd not recieved a response. They then replied asking for additional info which we provided, and not had a response from them. 

This guy continues to bully this lad on a daily basis and actively mocks him for reporting him to the FA and the FA not doing anything about it. Last night he sent him a message gloating because he's playing in a game today. 

There are some really good people within football, however by and large the sport is rotten to the core with outdated attitudes and people who enable those vile behaviours. 

They all scream from the rooftops about how seriously they take all forms of discrimination but when it comes to it they close ranks to protect their mate who they think is a good guy.

 

Its rare that a semi pro possesses a EUFA B licence, but if the individual does he will have had to have the backing of a club to achieve this. If the player is coaching it would be appropriate to contact the club the player is coaching at and raise your concern about inappropriate behaviour. 

You should also contact your regional FA safeguarding team (again?), copy in all the safeguarding team from the lead to the champion.

Disability is a protected characteristic its possible a hate crime has been committed. Bullying is defined as repetitive abuse, and abuse of a vulnerable adult is illegal. Contact the police. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Cowshed

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 06/10/2023 at 15:59, ExiledAjax said:

He may be a British citizen, with a British passport, but he's Albanian by playing allegiance, heritage, and culture. Certainly not English.

So if you hold a British passport. Why are you not English ? Surely he holds dual citizenship 

[SecretSam]

On 06/10/2023 at 13:15, Wedontplayinblue said:

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, as it must do to some degree as it does in life, but how often do people openly hear racist abuse at city?

I can honestly say in my 30ish years of watching city, I’ve never heard a racist remark. 

Not so much in the last couple of decades, but back in the day...and it's not just racism, it's sexism and homophobia. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 06/10/2023 at 15:59, ExiledAjax said:

He may be a British citizen, with a British passport, but he's Albanian by playing allegiance, heritage, and culture. Certainly not English.

So if you hold a British passport. Why are you not English ? Surely he holds dual citizenship 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Yes I can remember season or two back, that sounds vague, front block Lansdown. I had my two grandsons with me as per normal and two blokes where giving it large to a black player of the opposition. I had a quiet word with a steward. Nothing was done. When I clearly restated my complaint to the same steward. He had a word with another steward  and still did nothing.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rocking Red Cyril

[phantom]

14 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Yes I can remember season or two back, that sounds vague, front block Lansdown. I had my two grandsons with me as per normal and two blokes where giving it large to a black player of the opposition. I had a quiet word with a steward. Nothing was done. When I clearly restated my complaint to the same steward. He had a word with another steward  and still did nothing.

In the future if this ever happens you should get their coat numbers and report it to their supervisor - they would be more likely to respond as I would imagine the majority of stewards are there via an agency and probably not too bothered in what they are doing

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

In the future if this ever happens you should get their coat numbers and report it to their supervisor - they would be more likely to respond as I would imagine the majority of stewards are there via an agency and probably not too bothered in what they are doing

Yes good idea. I am certainly not over protective with my grandsons their. And I appreciate its BS 3 and we are at a football game. But racism is totally unacceptable at all levels. And I not willing tolerate it 

[Shtanley]

On 06/10/2023 at 16:28, Red Skin said:

Very good article in the last OSIB mag about an Muslim Asian City fan and his experiences at games. Sadly, it's still a thing.  Maybe @Shtanley could share?

As a white male I really have to look the those on the receiving end to gauge its effect.  I'm sure some of subtlety and nuance is lost on me.

Personally, I'm still pretty shocked by the amount of boos from our fans on the rare occasions opposition players take the knees.  No one will ever convince this is some political conspiracy by BTM.  It's just veiled racism. 

part 1

part 2

Edited October 9, 2023 by Shtanley

[ExiledAjax]

19 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

You still haven’t explained what being English is

I have. I've said that I think it's a genetic heritage based on a mix of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Norman and Brythonic DNA that probably came into being about 1,000 years ago.

19 hours ago, Wedontplayinblue said:

Put it this way, when Scotland becomes independent, NI is integrated back into Ireland and then wales decide to leave too, does everyone then born in England magically become English as there isn’t a union or Britain anymore? But then technically Northern Ireland isn’t part of Britain but of the United Kingdom, so should unionists in NI not feel British as they arnt?

Unionists in N Ireland are British citizens. They're British, as are republicans in N Ireland. The side of that debate on which someone sits does not affect their citizenship.

You are conflating citizenship, heritage and personal identity into a single descriptor. You're not listening to what I am saying which is that we are British citizens, because that is the country that exists as a sovereign state capable of conferring that status. England, Wales, Scotland and N Ireland are not countries and cannot do that.

If the union dissolved and England became a separate state and became capable of handing out citizenship status then yes we would become English citizens. Would you lose you're genetic heritage? No, as I've said that's a matter of fact. The only other thing is your behavioural culture, which is flexible, and is determined by - as @MarcusX elucidates - feeling. Whether "feeling" is sufficient to be the primary determining factor in someone's identity is doubtful in my opinion.

Regardless, none  of these aspects of identity - citizenship, heritage, feeling -is determined by birth location alone, and so we get back to the original point - that Mehmeti isn't English simply by virtue of being born in "England".

18 hours ago, Hxj said:

The major problem with your position is that the concept of linking a state to its citizens is a relatively modern concept, it started in the 19th Century, but it wasn't until the aftermath of the First World War that it became of major interest to sovereign states.

I'd also point out that modern Norway came into existence in the early 19th Century.

How else can a citizen be linked to the state other than through a passport? I know modern Norway is a young country (as is modern Britain). That's fine, and it doesn't make it's citizens any less Norwegian.

More absurd is @Wedontplayinblue's assertion that identity/citizenship (he conflates the two) is defined at birth by birth location alone. Essentially it seems that in his opinion a Saudi and a German could land at Heathrow, have a child, then move to the USA and raise that child there...and that child would be English. Not British of course. English. Absurd.

Regardless, I'm not seeking to define anyone solely by their citizenship. An individual can have a personal identity as well, but that cannot be of the same status as that person's citizenship. It cannot be the one thing that they "are".

2 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

So if you hold a British passport. Why are you not English ? Surely he holds dual citizenship 

Citizenship is a legal status. There is no such thing as English citizenship. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Red Skin]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Unionists in N Ireland are British citizens. They're British, as are republicans in N Ireland. The side of that debate on which someone sits does not affect their citizenship.

I am not sure where this thread has veered off to, but where does nationality sit with this?  Citizenship and nationality are distinct and different things.   

Since the Good Friday Agreement anyone in the North of Ireland can choose their nationality. That's why Mark Sykes can choose to play for the Republic of Ireland, whereas Neil Lennon could only play for Northern Ireland (and receive bullets in the post for the privilege from his NI 'supporters') .  And why since the GFA some unionists disgruntled with Brexit have got Irish passports and claim can Irish nationality (as well as British).  Isn't citizenship more about the right to residency and right work?  If this has morphed into a debate about identity, then surely nationality is a better yardstick then citizenship?   

Anyway, back on topic. I, for one, applaud the club for this.  Racist behaviour shouldn't be tolerated and hopefully it will make it easier to call out if it is witnessed.

[Red_Alligator]

It's always interesting to see government and/or the elites encouraging citizens to inform on each other. Remember the benefit cheat hotlines? 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

I am not sure where this thread has veered off to, but where does nationality sit with this?  Citizenship and nationality are distinct and different things.   

Since the Good Friday Agreement anyone in the North of Ireland can choose their nationality. That's why Mark Sykes can choose to play for the Republic of Ireland, whereas Neil Lennon could only play for Northern Ireland (and receive bullets in the post for the privilege from his NI 'supporters') .  And why since the GFA some unionists disgruntled with Brexit have got Irish passports and claim can Irish nationality (as well as British).  Isn't citizenship more about the right to residency and right work?  If this has morphed into a debate about identity, then surely nationality is a better yardstick then citizenship?   

Anyway, back on topic. I, for one, applaud the club for this.  Racist behaviour shouldn't be tolerated and hopefully it will make it easier to call out if it is witnessed.

Not really. Your nationality - ie which nation you belong to - is determined by your citizenship. 

Rights to live/work somewhere are separate. You don't have to have British citizenship/nationality to live and work in Britain. I didn't change my nationality when I lived and worked abroad.

Which football team someone plays for is only their "nationality" so far as the white line around the pitch extends.

As to racist behaviour. Yes it should be called out. I've never hear it at AG but normally hear something ranging from ignorant/rude comments through to full blown racism from our fans at every away game I go to.

Edited October 9, 2023 by ExiledAjax