The King is dead long live the King

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

It certainly has logic, but I bet you if you asked our fans who are the “fittest” players (defining fittest isn’t easy, but just take a simple fans view for the purpose of this), most would answer Knight, Sykes, probably add Weimann in there too.

All three have been mentioned by LM as needing to be managed.  That’s why Weimann didn’t start (from LM himself).

I’m not here to suggest he’s right or wrong, just purely adding some things LM has said.  Knight hadn’t played every minute (as suggested in BP), he was taken off in 76th min versus Saints.

[stortfordred]

1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

 

Anyway. I’m dreaming of a Jennifer Aniston Christmas……

Just like Tinman, she’s past her best when she takes her boots off. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

Just like Tinman, she’s past her best when she takes her boots off. 

Is that Luke Freeman?

[Silvio Dante]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is.

Here are the numbers behind each axis.

I’ve added LM’s numbers (as the website is whole season so far), and you can see his 3.73 passes per possession is 8th.

Bit here is the big one:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

The challenge will be that all of those teams have had parachute payments or are still getting them!  Boro and Hull the longest in the last, we’re still receiving PPs in 2018-19 season.  Hard to believe that Sunderland and Hull were still getting them in 2019-20.

Will we be the exception?

You know what I’m going to ask now. 
 

Overlay into that bottom chart 

Oxford (23-24 LM), Oxford (22-23 LM), Oxford (22-23 KR), MK (22-23 LM), MK (21-22 LM) and MK (20-21 RM)

(Only if you have time, obvs )

[Red Exile]

23 minutes ago, NSFF said:

So as I’ve rarely posted it makes my opinion worth less than others ? 
my provenance is home and away for 30 odd years just as I’ve no desire to type my thoughts about the price of hotdogs and where to park on Saturday means I’m contrarian ? 
Id love to be able to put on here what I’ve been told over the years by previous players, just one question  why’s tinnion never had another job in football ? 
 

 

I mean that phrase has no provenance - Manning hasn’t asked for 3 transfer windows. It is a fact that you’ve barely posted on here previously. To be fair to OTIB I don’t see much discussion of hotdogs. New posters have no less right to be heard but it seems reasonable to think that people pay more attention to those who have been in the community and regularly contributed for years. 

[exAtyeoMax]

3 hours ago, East End Old Boy said:

When I saw the name of the thread I thought you’d been reading Danny Wilson’s book!

 Blige! 

[AshtonGreat]

3 hours ago, firstdivision said:

We live in an instant social-media driven society that really has no basis in reality. The bloke has had SIX games. Of course he needs some time. Anyone would think we were any good before he took over (15th was it?). We’re just not that good.

Everyone needs to calm down a bit. What do you actually want to happen? Would you prefer us to struggle just so you can be right? 

Life is far more nuanced than you suggest. 

NP irritated the hell out of me some of the time but I always wanted us to win and I wanted him to succeed. I think the board got the timing of his sacking hopelessly wrong. But I want Liam Manning to succeed because life is too short not to want to feel happy on a Saturday and Tuesday/Wednesday evening (after a win), not angry and bitter, and harking back to a marriage that’s not going to be revived. 

I’ve seen over fifty years of this club’s football and I can’t remember a more knee-jerk reaction to a new manager. It’s been far from perfect, and deeply frustrating at times. But we’ve been in every game and could have got something from all of them. 
If we lose nine in a row - like a previously successful manager incidentally - you can fill your boots if you want. 

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

Edited December 14, 2023 by AshtonGreat

[bearded_red]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Manning take over a team that had been 8th a couple of weeks previously and was hailed as a top 6 squad.

Pearson took over a sh*t show that had just been humiliated 6-0 at Watford.

It is absolutely remarkable that this needs to be pointed out on a forum dedicated to talking about Bristol City isn’t it.

[stortfordred]

15 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

 Blige! 

Blige

[Sir Geoff]

59 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

Alf Ramsey did that once and look how that turned out.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

Where we WERE, (please).

8th when they decided to sack NP if we lost to Cardiff and 11th when it happened.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

He was trying to put some fresh legs on the pitch and save those two for Saturday as they've played so many minutes recently

I get that , specially if you have a lead to defend but we were chasing an equaliser . 
It has to be one thing at a time, you can't plan for Saturday half way through a game on Tuesday unless you're comfortable. We were pushing for an equaliser and looked like we could get one. The subs took all our momentum away needlessly .

[stortfordred]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

. Anyone would think we were any good before he took over (15th was it?). We’re just not that good.

You’re bang on. Apart from moments like the first 20 against Stoke, we have badly missed Scott and Semenyo in terms of really creating anything. 
This ‘project’ (sorry) was pretty much doomed (or at least limited to mid table at best) once those two were sold. 
NP got buy in from a mediocre bunch which meant they were over performing enough to pick up some points. 
Now the buy in seems to have faded and they are being asked to play a style they’re not suited to, things are regressing. 
However with the addition of a really quality, creative CM and a progressive right back, that might be enough to spark the others. Particularly if we get the  likes of Wells and Naismith back. 

[1960maaan]

12 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

And expected to win away at Cardiff with 12 players out , or the manager gets it 

[Sir Geoff]

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Exactly - we lost five out of seven before LM turned up

Remind me but weren't we decimated by injuries, and if memory serves correctly we played the current top 3 and weren't rolled over by any of them, during that run.

[AshtonGreat]

3 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Remind me but weren't we decimated by injuries, and if memory serves correctly we played the current top 3 and weren't rolled over by any of them, during that run.

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

[Davefevs]

Just now, AshtonGreat said:

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

And we played pretty well that day.  You don’t always get the result you deserve.

The same applies to LM too….although some seem to forget when cutting LM some slack with result v performance, that they didn’t with Nige!

[2015]

4 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

That is very revealing into Brian’s character (noting it’s written from Wilson’s perspective)

I wouldn't have a professional man like Danny Wilson down as a liar. He did a decent job for us, failed to get promotion but was largely very professional in his role and a calm head. 

I don't think he would make these allegations up about Tinnion, he would have no reason to, as he says Tinnion was a key player for him.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Not really - the personnel for the home defeat against Stoke was more or less the same as it is now. We didn't have Vyner but we did have Wells

We were missing McCrorie, Vyner, Atkinson and Benarous.

We can hardly say Conway or Weimann would've been fully fit and match fit by this juncture either.

In a squad of 21 outfield players that is quite a big loss..Tanner checking back according to reports went off with an ankle injury v Stoke 10 mins into the 2nd Half which upsets the balance further.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, mason said:

Why is 3 a magic number.... if we give our new manager 3 million transfer windows it will make no difference if we continue to sell off our best players while not investing the proceeds and 3 wins will also make no difference if other clubs also win 3.

Currently teams below us are making progress while we head towards them, we have failed to add quality players in positions,that are clear to fans.

Our "top six" club is heading towards the bottom six, yet our league position was the reason given for the sacking of our exp manager. There are currently 9 teams below us and 14 teams above us, even on points we are 6 from bottom six and 7 from top six. So Jon the plan aint working yet.

We have an option dont show your support for JL by attending as though its all ok, or if you have to be there make your feelings known.

Had enough builds and rebuilds to last a life time, will be back when the fools are gone.

 

I genuinely hope the selling of key players has halted for the foreseeable.

By which I mean we now financially able to decide to keep and sell as we see fit, contractually at least.

I hope Scott was the last key sale for some time. Through gritted teeth I can accept it but that record fee and bringing down the cost base as we- sorry predominantly NP and Gould did- means we can be very choosy about when we sell, should we choose to do so.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[the1stknowle]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Want us to progress beyond where we was, as that was why we made the change  

Fine. But over what period of time? Just instantaneously - from his first game in charge, Bristol City can never drop below 15th under LM or he is an instant failure? Or if in 10 games time we are higher than 15th, that is progress and you'll pop a humble pie in the oven?

I see so many posts on here currently saying 'no one is having a pop at Manning..' whilst having a very obvious pop at Manning in the very same post. Would be better if people were honest that that is exactly what they are doing.  

 

[the1stknowle]

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Ever since it has been boring shite dull football

'Ever since'... It's been SIX games. 

And, I can see you are a hardcore Nige ride or die but.. its not like 'boring shite dull football' was a totally foreign concept under his time here, or indeed the season so far.

[Red-Robbo]

6 hours ago, marmite said:

Manning doesn't need 3 windows or patience from us. This squad is top 6 ready. Jon told us so.

Didn't specify which division though....

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'Ever since'... It's been SIX games. 

And, I can see you are a hardcore Nige ride or die but.. its not like 'boring shite dull football' was a totally foreign concept under his time here, or indeed the season so far.

And after 10 games you'll be saying it's only been 10 games, same after 20,30,40 etc. 

Under Nige we saw progression. That gave people a bit of patience. 

Unfortunately for Manning he accepted a job that has high expectations. He's come in and changed our style and the majority are falling asleep watching it. 

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We were missing McCrorie, Vyner, Atkinson and Benarous.

We can hardly say Conway or Weimann would've been fully fit and match fit by this juncture either.

In a squad of 21 outfield players that is quite a big loss..Tanner checking back according to reports went off with an ankle injury v Stoke 10 mins into the 2nd Half which upsets the balance further.

Every manager has to cope with injuries. Manning is missing some of those as well

[Bazooka Joe]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe Manning has actually said anything about 3 windows or such like. 
It’s a phrase which has only been bandied around on here. It’s never been said or even alluded to by Manning 

Where have I said anything about Manning saying it?

However, some of his acolytes. on here, have said he needs to be given three windows.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Every manager has to cope with injuries. Manning is missing some of those as well

Ipswich have barely any tbh.

You are right, injuries are part of the game but we really needed 2-3 more in post Scott, the board negligent there. Our injury list ratio would derail a lot of sides though.

[the1stknowle]

14 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And after 10 games you'll be saying it's only been 10 games, same after 20,30,40 etc. 

Under Nige we saw progression. That gave people a bit of patience. 

Unfortunately for Manning he accepted a job that has high expectations. He's come in and changed our style and the majority are falling asleep watching it. 

Yes to after 10 games. That is too soon.

After 20 I think we should be seeing signs of progress. 

And after 30, 40 - you're just making straw man arguments there. That would be two transfer windows and most of a season so of course that becomes a reasonable time to judge 'progress'. Just because I'm saying it's too soon to judge, that doesn't mean 'he can never be judged'. Come on. 

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, the1stknowle said:

Fine. But over what period of time? Just instantaneously - from his first game in charge, Bristol City can never drop below 15th under LM or he is an instant failure? Or if in 10 games time we are higher than 15th, that is progress and you'll pop a humble pie in the oven?

I see so many posts on here currently saying 'no one is having a pop at Manning..' whilst having a very obvious pop at Manning in the very same post. Would be better if people were honest that that is exactly what they are doing.  

 

I'll have a pop at him and he won't get a free pass from me.

He wanted the job, and I don't blame him for taking up the offer.

His  players, his selections, his substitutions.

If he delivers what the hierarchy says is attainable then i'll be very happy because I want the club to succeed despite the ******** running the show.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Yes to after 10 games. That is too soon.

After 20 I think we should be seeing signs of progress. 

And after 30, 40 - you're just making straw man arguments there. That would be two transfer windows and most of a season so of course that becomes a reasonable time to judge 'progress'. Just because I'm saying it's too soon to judge, that doesn't mean 'he can never be judged'. Come on. 

Fair enough if that's how you see it. And maybe I'd see it that way if he was appointed at the start of the season. 

But I certainly felt as if top 10 was achievable this season and maybe even the play offs with a fair wind. 

As I've said plenty of times. BCFC is not a charity. We are not here to provide work experience for inexperienced managers. 

I have absolutely no doubt that other managers could have come in and done better over those 6 games especially as at least 3 of those games were very winnable games. 

He accepted a job mid season at a club that has expectations of challenging. 

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football. I don't subscribe to the give him time narrative when he was brought in to instantly improve results. 

[Major Isewater]

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

[stortfordred]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football.

You don’t lose because of boring, dull football. In fact in many instances eg a relegation fight, winning ugly is preferable or even required. 
Exciting attacking football sometimes allows inconsistency of results to be overlooked. Just look at Spurs. 
It’s when you lose playing boring football that it gets really bad. 
memories are short but we’ve certainly had patches like that under all our recent managers. GJ less so and certainly not Cotts’ double season. There’s been plenty of mediocrity for years. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

Not sure on that.

Elek who is an Oxford fan and host of an EFL Podcast seemed to think Manning was quite adaptable and wouldn't just impose a style change without necessarily having the players. Plus mentioned Oxford and their proficiency in transition.

He also, correctly IMO, said players such as Knight, Sykes, Bell, Conway would be useful for such a style. Maybe were some others too.

An injured McCrorie, Naismith, Atkinson makes going straight into a back 3 brave at best, foolish and pig headed at worst IMO.

The possession play, hard to say isn't it. He clearly isn't getting it right here so far, balance etc.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

44 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Where have I said anything about Manning saying it?

However, some of his acolytes. on here, have said he needs to be given three windows.

I never said you did. 
I just responded to the post where you brought it up and I wanted to clarify that Manning had never said it. So to whoever brought it up before, it’s not true. 

[the1stknowle]

12 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Fair enough if that's how you see it. And maybe I'd see it that way if he was appointed at the start of the season. 

But I certainly felt as if top 10 was achievable this season and maybe even the play offs with a fair wind. 

As I've said plenty of times. BCFC is not a charity. We are not here to provide work experience for inexperienced managers. 

I have absolutely no doubt that other managers could have come in and done better over those 6 games especially as at least 3 of those games were very winnable games. 

He accepted a job mid season at a club that has expectations of challenging. 

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football. I don't subscribe to the give him time narrative when he was brought in to instantly improve results. 

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

 

It’s when you lose playing boring football that it gets really bad. 

 

 

 

And that's why we're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone. 

There is a real possibility that we could end this year in the relegation zone. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

Once again, we are not a charity. 

3 defeats, 2 draws and 1 win is bad. 

If Man Utd sacked ETH today and told the new boss the expectation is top 4, theyd be pretty annoyed with that sort of record after 6 games. 

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

Personally I don't disagree that a change in tactics/strategy will require time. But I would question the timing.

I think a better analogy in what is - after all - an entertainment business - is selling tickets to a show and midway through the performance letting half the cast leave and replacing them with a bunch who don't know their lines....

...all the while saying 'bear with us, don't know what you're moaning about, it'll obviously take them time'. Anyone in the audience would rightly think 'are they in their right minds?' 

[the1stknowle]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Once again, we are not a charity. 

3 defeats, 2 draws and 1 win is bad. 

If Man Utd sacked ETH today and told the new boss the expectation is top 4, theyd be pretty annoyed with that sort of record after 6 games. 

None of my points rely on the idea that we are a charity. Quite the opposite. 

And re ManU, maybe. But if they then finished in the top 4, they wouldn't be annoyed and what happened in the first 6 games would be irrelevant. 

It's just circles so no point going round rehashing same points. More people on here seem to agree with you than me and all equally entitled to opinion. I just think not only is it too early to judge, but the ill will towards Manning (which is there no matter what people claim) will only make things more challenging. Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

None of my points rely on the idea that we are a charity. Quite the opposite. 

And re ManU, maybe. But if they then finished in the top 4, they wouldn't be annoyed and what happened in the first 6 games would be irrelevant. 

It's just circles so no point going round rehashing same points. More people on here seem to agree with you than me and all equally entitled to opinion. I just think not only is it too early to judge, but the ill will towards Manning (which is there no matter what people claim) will only make things more challenging. Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

I think where I'm at is that if we have another similar run of results in the next 6 games, we're in a relegation battle. 

I'd also argue that the next 6 is tougher than the previous 6 so the concern is huge. 

And I'm annoyed that it just seems to be a lost opportunity for this season. 

 

[the1stknowle]

7 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Personally I don't disagree that a change in tactics/strategy will require time. But I would question the timing.

I think a better analogy in what is - after all - an entertainment business - is selling tickets to a show and midway through the performance letting half the cast leave and replacing them with a bunch who don't know their lines....

...all the while saying 'bear with us, don't know what you're moaning about, it'll obviously take them time'. Anyone in the audience would rightly think 'are they in their right minds?' 

 

Maybe, but I think your analogy is wrong anyway as it assumes the actors are doing the same thing, just worse. What Im saying is half way through a show is obviously never the ideal time to start a new show and that could be a bit jarring for the audience. But maybe the new show, once all the actors get into character, will be a lot better. Thing is, we will never know how good the play gets if everyone starts screaming at the actors or walks out before they have had a chance to get to the good bits.

And, anyway, tortured analogy aside, we all know football supporting isn't solely about the entertainment (see Nigel Pearson reign) or even the results (see Nigel Pearson reign). What makes it enjoyable is a lot more complicated than that (see Nigel Pearson reign). 

I'll leave it there as literally no one on either side of discussion here is likely to change mind. 

[Red Exile]

4 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

 

Maybe, but I think your analogy is wrong anyway as it assumes the actors are doing the same thing, just worse. What Im saying is half way through a show is obviously never the ideal time to start a new show and that could be a bit jarring for the audience. But maybe the new show, once all the actors get into character, will be a lot better. Thing is, we will never know how good the play gets if everyone starts screaming at the actors or walks out before they have had a chance to get to the good bits.

And, anyway, tortured analogy aside, we all know football supporting isn't solely about the entertainment (see Nigel Pearson reign) or even the results (see Nigel Pearson reign). What makes it enjoyable is a lot more complicated than that (see Nigel Pearson reign). 

I'll leave it there as literally no one on either side of discussion here is likely to change mind. 

Fair play - it was a rather tortured analogy! I don't have a beef with Liam Manning. He's been handed the job and needs time to do his stuff, or fail to do his stuff, whichever.

I get cheesed off with the perpetually half-finished, 'jam tomorrow', nature of the Lansdown era. But it's all laughably predictable and I was cheesed off and on here saying as much in exactly the same terms a decade ago!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think where I'm at is that if we have another similar run of results in the next 6 games, we're in a relegation battle. 

I'd also argue that the next 6 is tougher than the previous 6 so the concern is huge. 

And I'm annoyed that it just seems to be a lost opportunity for this season. 

 

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

[Sir Geoff]

22 minutes ago, Harry said:

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

He wasn't after 1st September, but there was hope before that with a couple of decent signings on the back of selling Scott that we would have a 'chance'

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

My posting history has been consistent on this. My expectation on Nige and my belief was that we'd be in with a shout of the play offs towards the back end of the season. 

I've never said he would have got us play offs. But in my opinion, he would have given us a chance of getting them. I do believe that if he was allowed to sign 2-3 players then that 5th and 6th place would have been achievable. 

If you're around them play offs at the back end of the season, as we've seen many many times, anything can happen. Our best chance of getting in the play offs isn't by having the best passing stats between cbs, but rather on hard work, belief, determination, grit etc etc. Those were all features of a NP team and that's why I see it as a lost opportunity.

I'm baffled how you are so certain he wouldn't get us to the play offs this season so no wonder why you don't see it as a missed opportunity. 

You might be happy to go backwards, write of a season in the hope we might get back to where we was, but not me. 

JL made it very clear when he said "the ultimate reason is I think we've got a really good squad here and we've got a good chance of competing at the right end of the division this season" 

It's looking more likely we are going to be at the bottom end of the division this season rather than the top! 

LM has a shot, he's the head coach. Your excitement for Manning ball is clear. I'm not telling you to not be excited, so please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. 

My expectations on Manning was to at the very least maintain the 1.4ppg. He's failed to do that and as this is a forum I will discuss the reasons as to why under Manning we are now at 0.8 ppg. 

I maintain that Manning is not suited to the group of players that we have. In the 6 games here he has failed to show that he can adapt his style to the players we have. In the period when we played well at Blackburn it was because the players said f Manning ball. That's concerning after just 6 games. 

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

For me there are some positive changes, but they’ve come at the expense of some negative changes.

So I can’t honestly sit here and say - results will follow.

For me that’s just pure guesswork, hope.

In a few more games, I’ll have a better idea, but I won’t go into leaps of faith or the opposite, but it’s not got any real foundation yet.

43 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

He wasn't after 1st September, but there was hope before that with a couple of decent signings on the back of selling Scott that we would have a 'chance'

That is the key context.

Dont get me wrong I don’t think we were getting to the playoffs this season, but there was an opportunity, ie stars aligning type opportunity.  That went out of the window at the end of the window!!!

Edited December 14, 2023 by Davefevs

[Fuber]

11 hours ago, Harry said:

If you’re not prepared to give Manning time then what is it that you want? 
 

Because Pearson sure as hell ain’t coming back. 
So, if we sack Manning after we lose to Sunderland this week, what do YOU want to see? 
You’re giving a belly load of airtime to how much you don’t want this manager, so what is it that you DO want? Straight answer please, no waffly bollox. 

Not to speak for Seagull. But for me? - Eustace. On the assumption we're most definately not able to get Nige back. And kick out Tinns while we're add it if he was in fact an advocate of getting NP sacked, same for Jon.

Did well at Brum under strict financial conditions until the Bellingham windfall and Brady takeover and were the best coached team Ive seen at AG this season, and played a (more similar to NP) structured counter system that was not possession based. Actually has Experience playing and managing at this level.

Manning was a boneheaded appointment with regards to playstyle and timing. Do I want him sacked? - No. But in my view it'd be better for the club at this stage, as he doesnt seem to be at all flexible to the needs of the squad, who struggle in possession and technically.

[stortfordred]

3 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Manning was a boneheaded appointment with regards to playstyle and timing. Do I want him sacked?

Do Swansea still need a manager? Perhaps we could come to an arrangement?

Come in Colin. It’s your destiny 

[stortfordred]

Actually, can you imagine the scenario. Colin meets JL :

JL:’ Welcome to BCFC, Neil. ‘
CW(Broad Yorkshire accent): ‘Sorry sonny, I’ll only speak to the organ grinder. Pi55 off to Barbados and don’t come back til I’ve saved this shambles from relegation. ‘

Edited December 14, 2023 by stortfordred

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

I’m just making a point about their style - comparing to ours - not comparing managers.
 

Yes, McKenna got to test, embed, tweak, as a big club with money in League One.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Still don't think Ipswich and their squad us that amazing, man for man.

It is alright but a lot of their players other clubs weren't exactly breaking the doors down for.

It's not a virtual record breaking at this point in time squad at this level, put it that way.

51 points 21 games I mean come on.

By my record breaking stuff I mean points after 21 games 3 pts for a win, really up there.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red Skin]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m just making a point about their style - comparing to ours - not comparing managers.
 

Yes, McKenna got to test, embed, tweak, as a big club with money in League One.

 

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

Edited December 14, 2023 by Red Skin

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

In which case does Manning need to be more gradual and looking to strengthen some of our weaker points while evolving the side- both awaiting the return of McCrorie, Atkinson, Naismith, Wells and others.

TGH for Williams may provide a bit more craft in midfield too, especially at home.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

That’s exactly why I haven’t judged him, and said I’d draw my first conclusion on 1st Feb.  13 league games is a reasonable sample.  And I’ll be comparing to 15 games before he was appointed. I don’t be comparing to Ipswich, that was just Silvio posing his thoughts.

Your waterfall / agile anecdote just made me laugh and spit my tea out.  My current project was set up as Waterfall, and we are just being told it’s now Agile, under our “new ways of working”.  The rest of our area is Agile.  Just like that, voila.  Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but that is the expectation of those above my immediate bosses!

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

I wonder how far recruitment has risen up the backlog?

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

One thing you're not considering is that Manning hasn't got time. Firstly he was expected to push us on this season because otherwise, Jon's words, why make the change? 

We're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone and with two very tricky home games coming up, the possibility of being dragged into that is very much real. 

So yea, there isn't time. He was fortunate to have two weeks of training with the players between his 1st and 2nd game. 

We're going round and round in circles here but this style and philosophy wasn't what we were expecting. 

You don't get time in the Championship to do these things. 

Will you still be saying give him time if we're in league one? 

[bpexile]

12 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

J.J was someone whom everybody looked up to. He had the respect of everyone. He was not an unknown from the lower leagues who had achieved nothing in their careers. 

As was Nige, well respect of almost everyone.

[bpexile]

11 hours ago, Galley is our king said:

I want BT to resign and JL to step down to a more junior position and employ someone who knows what they are doing!

I hope Manning succeeds but that doesn't stop me lamenting the fact that Pearson was sacked for no real reason by 2 people who haven't a ******* clue what they are doing.

I have tried to cut out the waffley bollox @Harry

 

Good luck with all that mate, I'd love the same but I won't be holding my breath for either to happen 

[Red Skin]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

One thing you're not considering is that Manning hasn't got time. Firstly he was expected to push us on this season because otherwise, Jon's words, why make the change? 

We're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone and with two very tricky home games coming up, the possibility of being dragged into that is very much real. 

So yea, there isn't time. He was fortunate to have two weeks of training with the players between his 1st and 2nd game. 

We're going round and round in circles here but this style and philosophy wasn't what we were expecting. 

You don't get time in the Championship to do these things. 

Will you still be saying give him time if we're in league one? 

You chose your name well. Every time I post something you fly over and try to shit on it!

What's the WSM stand for?  Won't Support Manning?

 

[bpexile]

I had a dream last night that SL sold up & the new owners re-instated Nige to finish the job he had started, but with money to spend.

As I said, right or wrong it was only a dream . 

[Galley is our king]

11 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Good luck with all that mate, I'd love the same but I won't be holding my breath for either to happen 

I know but the question was "what do you want"?

Not,..what do you think will happen?

Can dream though eh?

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

You chose your name well. Every time I post something you fly over and try to shit on it!

What's the WSM stand for?  Won't Support Manning?

 

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

[Red Skin]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case does Manning need to be more gradual and looking to strengthen some of our weaker points while evolving the side- both awaiting the return of McCrorie, Atkinson, Naismith, Wells and others.

TGH for Williams may provide a bit more craft in midfield too, especially at home.

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

[Shauntaylor85]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My posting history has been consistent on this. My expectation on Nige and my belief was that we'd be in with a shout of the play offs towards the back end of the season. 

I've never said he would have got us play offs. But in my opinion, he would have given us a chance of getting them. I do believe that if he was allowed to sign 2-3 players then that 5th and 6th place would have been achievable. 

If you're around them play offs at the back end of the season, as we've seen many many times, anything can happen. Our best chance of getting in the play offs isn't by having the best passing stats between cbs, but rather on hard work, belief, determination, grit etc etc. Those were all features of a NP team and that's why I see it as a lost opportunity.

I'm baffled how you are so certain he wouldn't get us to the play offs this season so no wonder why you don't see it as a missed opportunity. 

You might be happy to go backwards, write of a season in the hope we might get back to where we was, but not me. 

JL made it very clear when he said "the ultimate reason is I think we've got a really good squad here and we've got a good chance of competing at the right end of the division this season" 

It's looking more likely we are going to be at the bottom end of the division this season rather than the top! 

LM has a shot, he's the head coach. Your excitement for Manning ball is clear. I'm not telling you to not be excited, so please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. 

My expectations on Manning was to at the very least maintain the 1.4ppg. He's failed to do that and as this is a forum I will discuss the reasons as to why under Manning we are now at 0.8 ppg. 

I maintain that Manning is not suited to the group of players that we have. In the 6 games here he has failed to show that he can adapt his style to the players we have. In the period when we played well at Blackburn it was because the players said f Manning ball. That's concerning after just 6 games. 

 

As a player who would you respect more. Manning or Nige? Nige every day of the week, what has Manning ever achieved, looks a soft touch. I’d sooner have had Lampard, he would have been a name to command respect. 

[Red Skin]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

People keep saying because of the things you post.  If you think it's a reflection of everyone else's mentality, then you have to start questioning that hypothesis.

It's like the mother watching her son at the passing out parade from the army.   As his company of soldiers all march past their families and assembled dignitaries, all the soldiers are marching in unison except her boy.  'Look at that', she says, 'my Johnny is the only one marching in time!'

I'm glad you will still be supporting the team on Saturday.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

Definitely when Atkinson and you can add Naismith IMO, he gave us a new dimension when he joined from Luton and slotted into the back 3.

Tanner in a back 3 not so much. McCrorie at wingback maybe, Tanner at wingback not so much.

By incrementally I mean stay at a back 4, stick wirh the 4-3-3 but look to make it a bit more patient..TGH, James and Knight atm.

Keep Sykes in his best position.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

People keep saying because of the things you post.  If you think it's a reflection of everyone else's mentality, then you have to start questioning that hypothesis.

It's like the mother watching her son at the passing out parade from the army.   As his company of soldiers all march past their families and assembled dignitaries, all the soldiers are marching in unison except her boy.  'Look at that', she says, 'my Johnny is the only one marching in time!'

I'm glad you will still be supporting the team on Saturday.  

That would make sense if I was the only one saying these things. But I'm not. 

It's only certain people like yourself saying it. I recieve plenty of support for my posts. 

[nebristolred]

12 hours ago, East End Old Boy said:

When I saw the name of the thread I thought you’d been reading Danny Wilson’s book!

I must admit I'd never heard about this! Need to get that book in now.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s exactly why I haven’t judged him, and said I’d draw my first conclusion on 1st Feb.  13 league games is a reasonable sample.  And I’ll be comparing to 15 games before he was appointed. I don’t be comparing to Ipswich, that was just Silvio posing his thoughts.

Your waterfall / agile anecdote just made me laugh and spit my tea out.  My current project was set up as Waterfall, and we are just being told it’s now Agile, under our “new ways of working”.  The rest of our area is Agile.  Just like that, voila.  Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but that is the expectation of those above my immediate bosses!

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

I wonder how far recruitment has risen up the backlog?

 

 

And to be fair I brought up Ipswich for two reasons  - the fact they’re so noticeable on the chart and the fact that Manning is seen as part of the McKenna “tribe” - my Ipswich mate thinks LM is the closest coach to KM and was gutted when we got him as they hoped he’d still want to move if McKenna got poached 

But Dave I’m far more interested in this comparison still. To use the parlance we’re on. Journey but this may help highlight the likely destination.

9 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

You know what I’m going to ask now. 
 

Overlay into that bottom chart 

Oxford (23-24 LM), Oxford (22-23 LM), Oxford (22-23 KR), MK (22-23 LM), MK (21-22 LM) and MK (20-21 RM)

(Only if you have time, obvs )

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

I'd also say that the level of analysis etc at this level is far above anything he has had before. Other clubs have easily worked us out already and there is no plan b. 

I am concerned about his lack of Championship knowledge and experience. For example, an experienced Championship manager knows all about Blackburn, he knows their players, he knows how the play, he knows how their manager may react to certain things, he knows how the crowd will react etc etc etc. 

Manning is learning these things day by day. 

Even Sammy Bell has more experience of the Championship than him. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull