The King is dead long live the King

[the1stknowle]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Want us to progress beyond where we was, as that was why we made the change  

Fine. But over what period of time? Just instantaneously - from his first game in charge, Bristol City can never drop below 15th under LM or he is an instant failure? Or if in 10 games time we are higher than 15th, that is progress and you'll pop a humble pie in the oven?

I see so many posts on here currently saying 'no one is having a pop at Manning..' whilst having a very obvious pop at Manning in the very same post. Would be better if people were honest that that is exactly what they are doing.  

 

[the1stknowle]

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Ever since it has been boring shite dull football

'Ever since'... It's been SIX games. 

And, I can see you are a hardcore Nige ride or die but.. its not like 'boring shite dull football' was a totally foreign concept under his time here, or indeed the season so far.

[Red-Robbo]

6 hours ago, marmite said:

Manning doesn't need 3 windows or patience from us. This squad is top 6 ready. Jon told us so.

Didn't specify which division though....

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'Ever since'... It's been SIX games. 

And, I can see you are a hardcore Nige ride or die but.. its not like 'boring shite dull football' was a totally foreign concept under his time here, or indeed the season so far.

And after 10 games you'll be saying it's only been 10 games, same after 20,30,40 etc. 

Under Nige we saw progression. That gave people a bit of patience. 

Unfortunately for Manning he accepted a job that has high expectations. He's come in and changed our style and the majority are falling asleep watching it. 

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We were missing McCrorie, Vyner, Atkinson and Benarous.

We can hardly say Conway or Weimann would've been fully fit and match fit by this juncture either.

In a squad of 21 outfield players that is quite a big loss..Tanner checking back according to reports went off with an ankle injury v Stoke 10 mins into the 2nd Half which upsets the balance further.

Every manager has to cope with injuries. Manning is missing some of those as well

[Bazooka Joe]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe Manning has actually said anything about 3 windows or such like. 
It’s a phrase which has only been bandied around on here. It’s never been said or even alluded to by Manning 

Where have I said anything about Manning saying it?

However, some of his acolytes. on here, have said he needs to be given three windows.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Every manager has to cope with injuries. Manning is missing some of those as well

Ipswich have barely any tbh.

You are right, injuries are part of the game but we really needed 2-3 more in post Scott, the board negligent there. Our injury list ratio would derail a lot of sides though.

[the1stknowle]

14 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And after 10 games you'll be saying it's only been 10 games, same after 20,30,40 etc. 

Under Nige we saw progression. That gave people a bit of patience. 

Unfortunately for Manning he accepted a job that has high expectations. He's come in and changed our style and the majority are falling asleep watching it. 

Yes to after 10 games. That is too soon.

After 20 I think we should be seeing signs of progress. 

And after 30, 40 - you're just making straw man arguments there. That would be two transfer windows and most of a season so of course that becomes a reasonable time to judge 'progress'. Just because I'm saying it's too soon to judge, that doesn't mean 'he can never be judged'. Come on. 

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, the1stknowle said:

Fine. But over what period of time? Just instantaneously - from his first game in charge, Bristol City can never drop below 15th under LM or he is an instant failure? Or if in 10 games time we are higher than 15th, that is progress and you'll pop a humble pie in the oven?

I see so many posts on here currently saying 'no one is having a pop at Manning..' whilst having a very obvious pop at Manning in the very same post. Would be better if people were honest that that is exactly what they are doing.  

 

I'll have a pop at him and he won't get a free pass from me.

He wanted the job, and I don't blame him for taking up the offer.

His  players, his selections, his substitutions.

If he delivers what the hierarchy says is attainable then i'll be very happy because I want the club to succeed despite the ******** running the show.

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Yes to after 10 games. That is too soon.

After 20 I think we should be seeing signs of progress. 

And after 30, 40 - you're just making straw man arguments there. That would be two transfer windows and most of a season so of course that becomes a reasonable time to judge 'progress'. Just because I'm saying it's too soon to judge, that doesn't mean 'he can never be judged'. Come on. 

Fair enough if that's how you see it. And maybe I'd see it that way if he was appointed at the start of the season. 

But I certainly felt as if top 10 was achievable this season and maybe even the play offs with a fair wind. 

As I've said plenty of times. BCFC is not a charity. We are not here to provide work experience for inexperienced managers. 

I have absolutely no doubt that other managers could have come in and done better over those 6 games especially as at least 3 of those games were very winnable games. 

He accepted a job mid season at a club that has expectations of challenging. 

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football. I don't subscribe to the give him time narrative when he was brought in to instantly improve results. 

[Major Isewater]

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

[stortfordred]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football.

You don’t lose because of boring, dull football. In fact in many instances eg a relegation fight, winning ugly is preferable or even required. 
Exciting attacking football sometimes allows inconsistency of results to be overlooked. Just look at Spurs. 
It’s when you lose playing boring football that it gets really bad. 
memories are short but we’ve certainly had patches like that under all our recent managers. GJ less so and certainly not Cotts’ double season. There’s been plenty of mediocrity for years. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

Not sure on that.

Elek who is an Oxford fan and host of an EFL Podcast seemed to think Manning was quite adaptable and wouldn't just impose a style change without necessarily having the players. Plus mentioned Oxford and their proficiency in transition.

He also, correctly IMO, said players such as Knight, Sykes, Bell, Conway would be useful for such a style. Maybe were some others too.

An injured McCrorie, Naismith, Atkinson makes going straight into a back 3 brave at best, foolish and pig headed at worst IMO.

The possession play, hard to say isn't it. He clearly isn't getting it right here so far, balance etc.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

44 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Where have I said anything about Manning saying it?

However, some of his acolytes. on here, have said he needs to be given three windows.

I never said you did. 
I just responded to the post where you brought it up and I wanted to clarify that Manning had never said it. So to whoever brought it up before, it’s not true. 

[the1stknowle]

12 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Fair enough if that's how you see it. And maybe I'd see it that way if he was appointed at the start of the season. 

But I certainly felt as if top 10 was achievable this season and maybe even the play offs with a fair wind. 

As I've said plenty of times. BCFC is not a charity. We are not here to provide work experience for inexperienced managers. 

I have absolutely no doubt that other managers could have come in and done better over those 6 games especially as at least 3 of those games were very winnable games. 

He accepted a job mid season at a club that has expectations of challenging. 

We've dropped 13 points in those SIX games because of the boring dull football. I don't subscribe to the give him time narrative when he was brought in to instantly improve results. 

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

 

It’s when you lose playing boring football that it gets really bad. 

 

 

 

And that's why we're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone. 

There is a real possibility that we could end this year in the relegation zone. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

Once again, we are not a charity. 

3 defeats, 2 draws and 1 win is bad. 

If Man Utd sacked ETH today and told the new boss the expectation is top 4, theyd be pretty annoyed with that sort of record after 6 games. 

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

'instantly improve results' is your narrative. If you take the chairman's explanation at face value, Manning was brought in because we wanted a new shiny way of playing football that was more likely to get us into the premier league. Fine. Agree with that or not, you have to accept that that will take a bit of time. Fans might want to hold the chairman to this 'guaranteed play off' nonsense but it would be nice if they let Manning get on with job with a bit of courtesy benefit of doubt. If not, we risk a self-fulfilling prophecy (which I suspect is, regardless of what people say, subconsciously sort of what a lot of people want. People instinctively like to be right even when they say 'I'd love to be proved wrong').

But even if top 6 was what Manning agreed and believes is achievable this season, its unrealistic to expect him to come in, change NOTHING and, to quote you 'instantly improve results'. To do that, something has to change and that is where he has to be allowed a bit of time.

What you're doing, I feel, is the equivalent of your neighbour telling you he wants a better house that will sell for more money. He starts painting, slaps on the undercoat, knocks down the back wall to start an extension. And you walk past three weeks later and shout 'mate, that looks shite. There's a massive hole in your house and its all different colours. I thought you wanted to make it better?' 

Personally I don't disagree that a change in tactics/strategy will require time. But I would question the timing.

I think a better analogy in what is - after all - an entertainment business - is selling tickets to a show and midway through the performance letting half the cast leave and replacing them with a bunch who don't know their lines....

...all the while saying 'bear with us, don't know what you're moaning about, it'll obviously take them time'. Anyone in the audience would rightly think 'are they in their right minds?' 

[the1stknowle]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Once again, we are not a charity. 

3 defeats, 2 draws and 1 win is bad. 

If Man Utd sacked ETH today and told the new boss the expectation is top 4, theyd be pretty annoyed with that sort of record after 6 games. 

None of my points rely on the idea that we are a charity. Quite the opposite. 

And re ManU, maybe. But if they then finished in the top 4, they wouldn't be annoyed and what happened in the first 6 games would be irrelevant. 

It's just circles so no point going round rehashing same points. More people on here seem to agree with you than me and all equally entitled to opinion. I just think not only is it too early to judge, but the ill will towards Manning (which is there no matter what people claim) will only make things more challenging. Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

None of my points rely on the idea that we are a charity. Quite the opposite. 

And re ManU, maybe. But if they then finished in the top 4, they wouldn't be annoyed and what happened in the first 6 games would be irrelevant. 

It's just circles so no point going round rehashing same points. More people on here seem to agree with you than me and all equally entitled to opinion. I just think not only is it too early to judge, but the ill will towards Manning (which is there no matter what people claim) will only make things more challenging. Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

I think where I'm at is that if we have another similar run of results in the next 6 games, we're in a relegation battle. 

I'd also argue that the next 6 is tougher than the previous 6 so the concern is huge. 

And I'm annoyed that it just seems to be a lost opportunity for this season. 

 

[the1stknowle]

7 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Personally I don't disagree that a change in tactics/strategy will require time. But I would question the timing.

I think a better analogy in what is - after all - an entertainment business - is selling tickets to a show and midway through the performance letting half the cast leave and replacing them with a bunch who don't know their lines....

...all the while saying 'bear with us, don't know what you're moaning about, it'll obviously take them time'. Anyone in the audience would rightly think 'are they in their right minds?' 

 

Maybe, but I think your analogy is wrong anyway as it assumes the actors are doing the same thing, just worse. What Im saying is half way through a show is obviously never the ideal time to start a new show and that could be a bit jarring for the audience. But maybe the new show, once all the actors get into character, will be a lot better. Thing is, we will never know how good the play gets if everyone starts screaming at the actors or walks out before they have had a chance to get to the good bits.

And, anyway, tortured analogy aside, we all know football supporting isn't solely about the entertainment (see Nigel Pearson reign) or even the results (see Nigel Pearson reign). What makes it enjoyable is a lot more complicated than that (see Nigel Pearson reign). 

I'll leave it there as literally no one on either side of discussion here is likely to change mind. 

[Red Exile]

4 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

 

Maybe, but I think your analogy is wrong anyway as it assumes the actors are doing the same thing, just worse. What Im saying is half way through a show is obviously never the ideal time to start a new show and that could be a bit jarring for the audience. But maybe the new show, once all the actors get into character, will be a lot better. Thing is, we will never know how good the play gets if everyone starts screaming at the actors or walks out before they have had a chance to get to the good bits.

And, anyway, tortured analogy aside, we all know football supporting isn't solely about the entertainment (see Nigel Pearson reign) or even the results (see Nigel Pearson reign). What makes it enjoyable is a lot more complicated than that (see Nigel Pearson reign). 

I'll leave it there as literally no one on either side of discussion here is likely to change mind. 

Fair play - it was a rather tortured analogy! I don't have a beef with Liam Manning. He's been handed the job and needs time to do his stuff, or fail to do his stuff, whichever.

I get cheesed off with the perpetually half-finished, 'jam tomorrow', nature of the Lansdown era. But it's all laughably predictable and I was cheesed off and on here saying as much in exactly the same terms a decade ago!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think where I'm at is that if we have another similar run of results in the next 6 games, we're in a relegation battle. 

I'd also argue that the next 6 is tougher than the previous 6 so the concern is huge. 

And I'm annoyed that it just seems to be a lost opportunity for this season. 

 

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

[Sir Geoff]

22 minutes ago, Harry said:

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

He wasn't after 1st September, but there was hope before that with a couple of decent signings on the back of selling Scott that we would have a 'chance'

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

I still don’t really understand the “missed opportunity for this season”. 
I think you are in a pretty rare camp of people who thought Nige would get us to the playoffs this season. 
He was doing a decent job. I agree. But he wasn’t getting us to the playoffs this season. So I’m not seeing this “missed opportunity”. 
 

I totally understand all of the anger, frustration, bewilderment, etc of why this has happened. But now that it has, is it not worth giving the new guy a fair bloody shot at it? 

My posting history has been consistent on this. My expectation on Nige and my belief was that we'd be in with a shout of the play offs towards the back end of the season. 

I've never said he would have got us play offs. But in my opinion, he would have given us a chance of getting them. I do believe that if he was allowed to sign 2-3 players then that 5th and 6th place would have been achievable. 

If you're around them play offs at the back end of the season, as we've seen many many times, anything can happen. Our best chance of getting in the play offs isn't by having the best passing stats between cbs, but rather on hard work, belief, determination, grit etc etc. Those were all features of a NP team and that's why I see it as a lost opportunity.

I'm baffled how you are so certain he wouldn't get us to the play offs this season so no wonder why you don't see it as a missed opportunity. 

You might be happy to go backwards, write of a season in the hope we might get back to where we was, but not me. 

JL made it very clear when he said "the ultimate reason is I think we've got a really good squad here and we've got a good chance of competing at the right end of the division this season" 

It's looking more likely we are going to be at the bottom end of the division this season rather than the top! 

LM has a shot, he's the head coach. Your excitement for Manning ball is clear. I'm not telling you to not be excited, so please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. 

My expectations on Manning was to at the very least maintain the 1.4ppg. He's failed to do that and as this is a forum I will discuss the reasons as to why under Manning we are now at 0.8 ppg. 

I maintain that Manning is not suited to the group of players that we have. In the 6 games here he has failed to show that he can adapt his style to the players we have. In the period when we played well at Blackburn it was because the players said f Manning ball. That's concerning after just 6 games. 

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

Also, I'm amazed that others aren't seeing some positive changes in what we are doing on pitch. I think results will follow. But who knows - Im willing to see. Appreciate you have already seen enough. 

For me there are some positive changes, but they’ve come at the expense of some negative changes.

So I can’t honestly sit here and say - results will follow.

For me that’s just pure guesswork, hope.

In a few more games, I’ll have a better idea, but I won’t go into leaps of faith or the opposite, but it’s not got any real foundation yet.

43 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

He wasn't after 1st September, but there was hope before that with a couple of decent signings on the back of selling Scott that we would have a 'chance'

That is the key context.

Dont get me wrong I don’t think we were getting to the playoffs this season, but there was an opportunity, ie stars aligning type opportunity.  That went out of the window at the end of the window!!!

Edited December 14, 2023 by Davefevs

[Fuber]

11 hours ago, Harry said:

If you’re not prepared to give Manning time then what is it that you want? 
 

Because Pearson sure as hell ain’t coming back. 
So, if we sack Manning after we lose to Sunderland this week, what do YOU want to see? 
You’re giving a belly load of airtime to how much you don’t want this manager, so what is it that you DO want? Straight answer please, no waffly bollox. 

Not to speak for Seagull. But for me? - Eustace. On the assumption we're most definately not able to get Nige back. And kick out Tinns while we're add it if he was in fact an advocate of getting NP sacked, same for Jon.

Did well at Brum under strict financial conditions until the Bellingham windfall and Brady takeover and were the best coached team Ive seen at AG this season, and played a (more similar to NP) structured counter system that was not possession based. Actually has Experience playing and managing at this level.

Manning was a boneheaded appointment with regards to playstyle and timing. Do I want him sacked? - No. But in my view it'd be better for the club at this stage, as he doesnt seem to be at all flexible to the needs of the squad, who struggle in possession and technically.

[stortfordred]

3 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Manning was a boneheaded appointment with regards to playstyle and timing. Do I want him sacked?

Do Swansea still need a manager? Perhaps we could come to an arrangement?

Come in Colin. It’s your destiny 

[stortfordred]

Actually, can you imagine the scenario. Colin meets JL :

JL:’ Welcome to BCFC, Neil. ‘
CW(Broad Yorkshire accent): ‘Sorry sonny, I’ll only speak to the organ grinder. Pi55 off to Barbados and don’t come back til I’ve saved this shambles from relegation. ‘

Edited December 14, 2023 by stortfordred

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

LM’s 1.45 m/s (metres per second going forward) is the slowest on the Champ.

Ipswich have average possessions, but do it the 3rd quickest!  They are front foot, attack football!!!

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.