The King is dead long live the King

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

I’m just making a point about their style - comparing to ours - not comparing managers.
 

Yes, McKenna got to test, embed, tweak, as a big club with money in League One.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Still don't think Ipswich and their squad us that amazing, man for man.

It is alright but a lot of their players other clubs weren't exactly breaking the doors down for.

It's not a virtual record breaking at this point in time squad at this level, put it that way.

51 points 21 games I mean come on.

By my record breaking stuff I mean points after 21 games 3 pts for a win, really up there.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red Skin]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m just making a point about their style - comparing to ours - not comparing managers.
 

Yes, McKenna got to test, embed, tweak, as a big club with money in League One.

 

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

Edited December 14, 2023 by Red Skin

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

In which case does Manning need to be more gradual and looking to strengthen some of our weaker points while evolving the side- both awaiting the return of McCrorie, Atkinson, Naismith, Wells and others.

TGH for Williams may provide a bit more craft in midfield too, especially at home.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

That’s exactly why I haven’t judged him, and said I’d draw my first conclusion on 1st Feb.  13 league games is a reasonable sample.  And I’ll be comparing to 15 games before he was appointed. I don’t be comparing to Ipswich, that was just Silvio posing his thoughts.

Your waterfall / agile anecdote just made me laugh and spit my tea out.  My current project was set up as Waterfall, and we are just being told it’s now Agile, under our “new ways of working”.  The rest of our area is Agile.  Just like that, voila.  Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but that is the expectation of those above my immediate bosses!

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

I wonder how far recruitment has risen up the backlog?

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Davefevs

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

The difference is that McKenna has been at Ipswich for 2 years embedding his philosophy and methods into his team.   LM has had 6 games.  I'm sure he isn't telling the players to slow things down to 1.45m/s.  They are adapting to a different way of playing and it's taking time.  

One thing you're not considering is that Manning hasn't got time. Firstly he was expected to push us on this season because otherwise, Jon's words, why make the change? 

We're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone and with two very tricky home games coming up, the possibility of being dragged into that is very much real. 

So yea, there isn't time. He was fortunate to have two weeks of training with the players between his 1st and 2nd game. 

We're going round and round in circles here but this style and philosophy wasn't what we were expecting. 

You don't get time in the Championship to do these things. 

Will you still be saying give him time if we're in league one? 

[bpexile]

12 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

J.J was someone whom everybody looked up to. He had the respect of everyone. He was not an unknown from the lower leagues who had achieved nothing in their careers. 

As was Nige, well respect of almost everyone.

[bpexile]

11 hours ago, Galley is our king said:

I want BT to resign and JL to step down to a more junior position and employ someone who knows what they are doing!

I hope Manning succeeds but that doesn't stop me lamenting the fact that Pearson was sacked for no real reason by 2 people who haven't a ******* clue what they are doing.

I have tried to cut out the waffley bollox @Harry

 

Good luck with all that mate, I'd love the same but I won't be holding my breath for either to happen 

[Red Skin]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

One thing you're not considering is that Manning hasn't got time. Firstly he was expected to push us on this season because otherwise, Jon's words, why make the change? 

We're now looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone and with two very tricky home games coming up, the possibility of being dragged into that is very much real. 

So yea, there isn't time. He was fortunate to have two weeks of training with the players between his 1st and 2nd game. 

We're going round and round in circles here but this style and philosophy wasn't what we were expecting. 

You don't get time in the Championship to do these things. 

Will you still be saying give him time if we're in league one? 

You chose your name well. Every time I post something you fly over and try to shit on it!

What's the WSM stand for?  Won't Support Manning?

 

[bpexile]

I had a dream last night that SL sold up & the new owners re-instated Nige to finish the job he had started, but with money to spend.

As I said, right or wrong it was only a dream . 

[Galley is our king]

11 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Good luck with all that mate, I'd love the same but I won't be holding my breath for either to happen 

I know but the question was "what do you want"?

Not,..what do you think will happen?

Can dream though eh?

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

You chose your name well. Every time I post something you fly over and try to shit on it!

What's the WSM stand for?  Won't Support Manning?

 

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

[Red Skin]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case does Manning need to be more gradual and looking to strengthen some of our weaker points while evolving the side- both awaiting the return of McCrorie, Atkinson, Naismith, Wells and others.

TGH for Williams may provide a bit more craft in midfield too, especially at home.

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

[Shauntaylor85]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My posting history has been consistent on this. My expectation on Nige and my belief was that we'd be in with a shout of the play offs towards the back end of the season. 

I've never said he would have got us play offs. But in my opinion, he would have given us a chance of getting them. I do believe that if he was allowed to sign 2-3 players then that 5th and 6th place would have been achievable. 

If you're around them play offs at the back end of the season, as we've seen many many times, anything can happen. Our best chance of getting in the play offs isn't by having the best passing stats between cbs, but rather on hard work, belief, determination, grit etc etc. Those were all features of a NP team and that's why I see it as a lost opportunity.

I'm baffled how you are so certain he wouldn't get us to the play offs this season so no wonder why you don't see it as a missed opportunity. 

You might be happy to go backwards, write of a season in the hope we might get back to where we was, but not me. 

JL made it very clear when he said "the ultimate reason is I think we've got a really good squad here and we've got a good chance of competing at the right end of the division this season" 

It's looking more likely we are going to be at the bottom end of the division this season rather than the top! 

LM has a shot, he's the head coach. Your excitement for Manning ball is clear. I'm not telling you to not be excited, so please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. 

My expectations on Manning was to at the very least maintain the 1.4ppg. He's failed to do that and as this is a forum I will discuss the reasons as to why under Manning we are now at 0.8 ppg. 

I maintain that Manning is not suited to the group of players that we have. In the 6 games here he has failed to show that he can adapt his style to the players we have. In the period when we played well at Blackburn it was because the players said f Manning ball. That's concerning after just 6 games. 

 

As a player who would you respect more. Manning or Nige? Nige every day of the week, what has Manning ever achieved, looks a soft touch. I’d sooner have had Lampard, he would have been a name to command respect. 

[Red Skin]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

People keep saying because of the things you post.  If you think it's a reflection of everyone else's mentality, then you have to start questioning that hypothesis.

It's like the mother watching her son at the passing out parade from the army.   As his company of soldiers all march past their families and assembled dignitaries, all the soldiers are marching in unison except her boy.  'Look at that', she says, 'my Johnny is the only one marching in time!'

I'm glad you will still be supporting the team on Saturday.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

Definitely when Atkinson and you can add Naismith IMO, he gave us a new dimension when he joined from Luton and slotted into the back 3.

Tanner in a back 3 not so much. McCrorie at wingback maybe, Tanner at wingback not so much.

By incrementally I mean stay at a back 4, stick wirh the 4-3-3 but look to make it a bit more patient..TGH, James and Knight atm.

Keep Sykes in his best position.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

People keep saying because of the things you post.  If you think it's a reflection of everyone else's mentality, then you have to start questioning that hypothesis.

It's like the mother watching her son at the passing out parade from the army.   As his company of soldiers all march past their families and assembled dignitaries, all the soldiers are marching in unison except her boy.  'Look at that', she says, 'my Johnny is the only one marching in time!'

I'm glad you will still be supporting the team on Saturday.  

That would make sense if I was the only one saying these things. But I'm not. 

It's only certain people like yourself saying it. I recieve plenty of support for my posts. 

[nebristolred]

12 hours ago, East End Old Boy said:

When I saw the name of the thread I thought you’d been reading Danny Wilson’s book!

I must admit I'd never heard about this! Need to get that book in now.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s exactly why I haven’t judged him, and said I’d draw my first conclusion on 1st Feb.  13 league games is a reasonable sample.  And I’ll be comparing to 15 games before he was appointed. I don’t be comparing to Ipswich, that was just Silvio posing his thoughts.

Your waterfall / agile anecdote just made me laugh and spit my tea out.  My current project was set up as Waterfall, and we are just being told it’s now Agile, under our “new ways of working”.  The rest of our area is Agile.  Just like that, voila.  Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but that is the expectation of those above my immediate bosses!

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

I wonder how far recruitment has risen up the backlog?

 

 

And to be fair I brought up Ipswich for two reasons  - the fact they’re so noticeable on the chart and the fact that Manning is seen as part of the McKenna “tribe” - my Ipswich mate thinks LM is the closest coach to KM and was gutted when we got him as they hoped he’d still want to move if McKenna got poached 

But Dave I’m far more interested in this comparison still. To use the parlance we’re on. Journey but this may help highlight the likely destination.

9 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

You know what I’m going to ask now. 
 

Overlay into that bottom chart 

Oxford (23-24 LM), Oxford (22-23 LM), Oxford (22-23 KR), MK (22-23 LM), MK (21-22 LM) and MK (20-21 RM)

(Only if you have time, obvs )

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I have the impression that Manning has had some, limited, success with his style in the divisions below but this style is already old hat and other coaches have moved on from it. 
 

I'd also say that the level of analysis etc at this level is far above anything he has had before. Other clubs have easily worked us out already and there is no plan b. 

I am concerned about his lack of Championship knowledge and experience. For example, an experienced Championship manager knows all about Blackburn, he knows their players, he knows how the play, he knows how their manager may react to certain things, he knows how the crowd will react etc etc etc. 

Manning is learning these things day by day. 

Even Sammy Bell has more experience of the Championship than him. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by W-S-M Seagull

[W-S-M Seagull]

37 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

As a player who would you respect more. Manning or Nige? Nige every day of the week, what has Manning ever achieved, looks a soft touch. I’d sooner have had Lampard, he would have been a name to command respect. 

When Pearson was manager I posted that I believed he had so much buy I'm from the players, young and old because he had been there and done it. They listened to him because they could see what he had done to the careers of players like Vardy etc. 

It worried me that at Blackburn the players ended up doing their own thing and that's when we troubled them. 

Talking from my own personal experience, I've never been inspired by someone who has achieved nothing. 

The difficulty with a young inexperienced manager is that you need to have total faith and belief in what they are telling you. Because there is no body of evidence to suggest that their way of doing things will yield success. It's just a lot of theory.

[Mr Popodopolous]

To play Devils Advocate, how do we explain McKenna and his enormous impact at Ipswich,

Taking an okay but not stellar squad on paper up with 90.plus points in b is first full season after half a season of building then records tumbling this season with 51 points from 21 games.

What huge track record did he have coming to Ipswich and let alone at our level. Will have to analyse the 2004 season.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Maybe so.  I think he probably feels he was doing it incrementally judging from his interviews.  He's talked about  focussing on stopping the opposition initially.  Then getting control (and our possession went up).  Then imposing ourselves on the opposition in terms of attacking play.  

Obviously, things are aren't as simple as they look on the tactics board.  

It'll be interesting when Atkinson comes back.  If we do play a back 3 including him and Dickie we have two CBs capable of taking to ball out of defence. 

Being the pedantic bastard I am, possession has actually gone down from almost 49% to just below 48%.  Subtle, but just highlighting perceptions versus facts are often different.

Now, of course you might say, “ah Dave, I meant number of passes has gone up”.  You’d be right.  City’s passes per game have gone up.

But I’d counter that by saying opposition passes have gone up too, and gone up slightly more than ours have.

As a simple example we gone from roughly 800 pass games (both teams added together) to 1050 pass games.

15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And to be fair I brought up Ipswich for two reasons  - the fact they’re so noticeable on the chart and the fact that Manning is seen as part of the McKenna “tribe” - my Ipswich mate thinks LM is the closest coach to KM and was gutted when we got him as they hoped he’d still want to move if McKenna got poached 

But Dave I’m far more interested in this comparison still. To use the parlance we’re on. Journey but this may help highlight the likely destination.

 

Yep, i know you did / are.  And we will see whether that blob starts going up the y-axis as he settles in and the players settle into his ways too.

The profiles of each division isn’t a million miles apart, the average line cross sections are in different places.  Oxford are Norwich not Ipswich…wrong East Anglian team!!!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

To play Devils Advocate, how do we explain McKenna had his enormous impact at Ipswich.

Taking an okay but not stellar squad on paper up with 90.plus points in b is first full season after half a season of building then records tumbling this season with 51 points from 21 games.

What huge track record did he have coming to Ipswich and let alone at our level.

I guess his route to Ipswich has one major difference….an Assistant Manager job….at a PL club, Manchester Utd no less (Mourinho put him in place, Carrick as coach).

It’s a good experience to have.

Don’t jump on this but my long term belief was that LJ would’ve learned a lot by being a no2 somewhere, learning good cop / bad cop, the man management stuff, etc,

Just highlighting a difference, not saying it’s a reason / the reason.

[Red Skin]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Being the pedantic bastard I am, possession has actually gone down from almost 49% to just below 48%.  Subtle, but just highlighting perceptions versus facts are often different

Thanks for the fact check.

I believe you.  The earlier games it was up.   The Blackburn game I did notice we had considerably less. 

I was merely pointed out what Manning was saying his incremental approach was rather than putting a case for it being the reality.  

There are different approaches to making incremental change, and from his interviews that seems to be his.  

[JP Hampton]

12 hours ago, Harry said:

Vyner, Conway & Bell were already way out of form before his arrival. 

 

I’m not sure at all about that Harry. Conway had only just come back from injury. Bell has definitely underperformed more since Manning and I really can’t agree Vyner being way out of form before his arrival, everyone was singing Zac’s praises NP had turned him right round. It’s only been in the previous 3/4 games that he send to be slipping back to some of his old ways. 
 

its certainly true we all watch the same game, but we don’t see it the same way

[Red Skin]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So in Feb I’ll have a better idea, I’ll hopefully see “direction of travel”, but it still won’t be black and white.

Phew, some reason.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Red Skin said:

Thanks for the fact check.

I believe you.  The earlier games it was up.   The Blackburn game I did notice we had considerably less. 

I was merely pointed out what Manning was saying his incremental approach was rather than putting a case for it being the reality.  

There are different approaches to making incremental change, and from his interviews that seems to be his.  

 

The best two games in terms of possession percentage were games 4 and 5 (possession percentage far right).

FWIW, I never make up any data / numbers I post on here.  I don’t see the point in doing that.

Don’t get me wrong, sometimes what I see / think I see isn’t always backed up in the numbers.  And the game state can play a big part.  For example, when we are winning we have circa 43% possession (49% when drawing, 54% when losing…an element of sitting on the lead / not risking things and vice versa.

[Major Isewater]

9 hours ago, bpexile said:

As was Nige, well respect of almost everyone.

But not a rookie manager , which was the theme of my reply. 

[Harry]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

The best two games in terms of possession percentage were games 4 and 5 (possession percentage far right).

FWIW, I never make up any data / numbers I post on here.  I don’t see the point in doing that.

Don’t get me wrong, sometimes what I see / think I see isn’t always backed up in the numbers.  And the game state can play a big part.  For example, when we are winning we have circa 43% possession (49% when drawing, 54% when losing…an element of sitting on the lead / not risking things and vice versa.

Some sites have 61% for the Norwich & Hudds games and 54% v Blackburn