The King is dead long live the King

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

Some sites have 61% for the Norwich & Hudds games and 54% v Blackburn 

I’m sure there is variance in every data supplier.  This is from Wyscout.  Some basic providers will include time the ball is out of play (Wyscout doesn’t) or just divide your team’s number of passes by total passes.

[italian dave]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Still don't think Ipswich and their squad us that amazing, man for man.

It is alright but a lot of their players other clubs weren't exactly breaking the doors down for.

It's not a virtual record breaking at this point in time squad at this level, put it that way.

51 points 21 games I mean come on.

By my record breaking stuff I mean points after 21 games 3 pts for a win, really up there.

Exactly the point though, Mr P?

They’re not that much better man for man. They’re just better coached. That was what really stood out for me when we played them earlier this season. (And in contrast to Leeds and Leicester, who we’d played not long before and who did have better players).

But that doesn’t come overnight…….

And to be honest, record breaking wouldn’t really worry me that much: I’d settle for 10 points clear of third place! 

[W-S-M Seagull]

31 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Exactly the point though, Mr P?

They’re not that much better man for man. They’re just better coached. That was what really stood out for me when we played them earlier this season. (And in contrast to Leeds and Leicester, who we’d played not long before and who did have better players).

But that doesn’t come overnight…….

And to be honest, record breaking wouldn’t really worry me that much: I’d settle for 10 points clear of third place! 

And also momentum and the feel good factor around their club. It often gets overlooked how important those things are. That's how we got to the play off final. 

[italian dave]

12 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And also momentum and the feel good factor around their club. It often gets overlooked how important those things are. That's how we got to the play off final. 

Yes, agree. I’d add confidence to that. It’s a massive factor in my view. The self belief that comes with that: the season we got to that Hull play off final we could be 0-0 going into the last few minutes and we’d just know we were going to get a winner. For much of the past decade we’ve got to that scenario just knowing that we’re going to concede

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’m sure there is variance in every data supplier.  This is from Wyscout.  Some basic providers will include time the ball is out of play (Wyscout doesn’t) or just divide your team’s number of passes by total passes.

Yeah, I was sat behind one of these blokes at FGR last week and also sat behind one at Woking v Halifax last season. 
They’ve basically got an app on the phone and click various parts of the app when possession changes but they also have to click the area of pitch the ball is in. 
So there’s half the screen in green and half in red and they click the area that says “home possession final 3rd right wing” and then if turned over they click “away possession midfield centre” and such like. 
 

It’s easy for them to get a little distracted though so not always 100%. I always wondered if there were additional analysts who watch the games on video afterwards and are able to slow the play down and mark up all of the actions. It can be quite a task to confirm all passes, tackles, blocks etc from individual players when the action is live. 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yeah, I was sat behind one of these blokes at FGR last week and also sat behind one at Woking v Halifax last season. 
They’ve basically got an app on the phone and click various parts of the app when possession changes but they also have to click the area of pitch the ball is in. 
So there’s half the screen in green and half in red and they click the area that says “home possession final 3rd right wing” and then if turned over they click “away possession midfield centre” and such like. 
 

It’s easy for them to get a little distracted though so not always 100%. I always wondered if there were additional analysts who watch the games on video afterwards and are able to slow the play down and mark up all of the actions. It can be quite a task to confirm all passes, tackles, blocks etc from individual players when the action is live. 

If you’ve ever watched a betting site live, you get a pitch view and realtime feed of where the ball is and behind has it. I imagine that was one of the team feeding the betting companies. 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you’ve ever watched a betting site live, you get a pitch view and realtime feed of where the ball is and behind has it. I imagine that was one of the team feeding the betting companies. 

Yeah sounds like it, used to chat to one of the guys that did it who sat at the back of the Williams stand. And yes they could become distracted, he said that the main thing from betting point of view is to suspend the betting if something major happens i.e. goal, penalty etc so won't be entirely accurate.

[Harry]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you’ve ever watched a betting site live, you get a pitch view and realtime feed of where the ball is and behind has it. I imagine that was one of the team feeding the betting companies. 

Do you think they have teams of people watching the games back on video to make sure they’ve got all the stats right. Because it’s nyon impossible for one guy to correctly say how many passes tackles blocks etc that each and every player makes when just viewing it live once. 

[Numero Uno]

On 14/12/2023 at 07:26, NSFF said:

Johnson snr lost 9 out of the first 12 didn’t he ? Its not the current mangers fault it’s all down to the boy and the binman that’s where your anger should be 

Johnson Snr had a lot more on his plate to deal with than Manning has, that’s for sure so that type of run simply won’t be tolerated. Tbh I would take 3 points out of the next two games but if it’s zero or one then the pressure is on unfortunately for Manning.

[sh1t_ref_again]

14 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

When Pearson was manager I posted that I believed he had so much buy I'm from the players, young and old because he had been there and done it. They listened to him because they could see what he had done to the careers of players like Vardy etc. 

It worried me that at Blackburn the players ended up doing their own thing and that's when we troubled them. 

Talking from my own personal experience, I've never been inspired by someone who has achieved nothing. 

The difficulty with a young inexperienced manager is that you need to have total faith and belief in what they are telling you. Because there is no body of evidence to suggest that their way of doing things will yield success. It's just a lot of theory.

 

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And also momentum and the feel good factor around their club. It often gets overlooked how important those things are. That's how we got to the play off final. 

Not often I find myself agreeing with anything you post, but found 2 in quick succession

One of my concerns I posted when LM was being touted for the job, was lack of experience of the championship and what he achieved as a player, whilst things are going well its easy for the players to be onboard with what the coach is after. When we get a bad run of results, if senior players start to question the tactics or what they are being asked to do (particularly if you have strong petulant characters, which I don't think we have), the lack of been there and done it can start to undermine the players belief in the message, which is not the case of Nige or Lampard for example. Not saying the players in any way feel this, and not sure players starting doing there own thing at Blackburn, although Manning has said players need to problem solve on the pitch, so maybe given licence to react and play in a certain way, that varies from the original plan as the game develops.

The second point momentum, is massive as it gives belief and confidence in what you are doing.

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, Harry said:

Do you think they have teams of people watching the games back on video to make sure they’ve got all the stats right. Because it’s nyon impossible for one guy to correctly say how many passes tackles blocks etc that each and every player makes when just viewing it live once. 

The likes of Wyscout (rather than betting companies) will use automated coding, rather than having individuals clicking every pass…and of course they sometimes make errors.  But they also have manual sampling too, especially things like shots, hence the delay to update, eg overnight.

[reddogkev]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The likes of Wyscout (rather than betting companies) will use automated coding, rather than having individuals clicking every pass…and of course they sometimes make errors.  But they also have manual sampling too, especially things like shots, hence the delay to update, eg overnight.

How on earth does that work?  t's crazy to think that so much technical analysis, data extraction, time and effort goes into each game of football to secure this sort of information.  Until I read this thread I had no idea!   Will drones be used for this at some stage?

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

How on earth does that work?  t's crazy to think that so much technical analysis, data extraction, time and effort goes into each game of football to secure this sort of information.  Until I read this thread I had no idea!   Will drones be used for this at some stage?

GPS, cameras, etc, but Dunno, way too complicated for my little brain!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, italian dave said:

Exactly the point though, Mr P?

They’re not that much better man for man. They’re just better coached. That was what really stood out for me when we played them earlier this season. (And in contrast to Leeds and Leicester, who we’d played not long before and who did have better players).

But that doesn’t come overnight…….

And to be honest, record breaking wouldn’t really worry me that much: I’d settle for 10 points clear of third place! 

There's been a distinct lack of injuries so far there, Dave which helps.

It's not just us they're amazingly better than, it's most of the League. Yeah they've had 2 years to perfect Manning ball, a lot of them at the lower level.

Record breaking was not a goal as such, just an expression of how absurdly dominant along with Leicester they've been so far. Statistically they're on track for well over 100 pts. 111-112 on current which is mental. For a side who aren't that remarkable on paper...

Reading hold the record with 106. 1 if not 2 sides could beat it this season which is mental.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[DaveInSA]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

 

Not often I find myself agreeing with anything you post, but found 2 in quick succession

One of my concerns I posted when LM was being touted for the job, was lack of experience of the championship and what he achieved as a player, whilst things are going well its easy for the players to be onboard with what the coach is after. When we get a bad run of results, if senior players start to question the tactics or what they are being asked to do (particularly if you have strong petulant characters, which I don't think we have), the lack of been there and done it can start to undermine the players belief in the message, which is not the case of Nige or Lampard for example. Not saying the players in any way feel this, and not sure players starting doing there own thing at Blackburn, although Manning has said players need to problem solve on the pitch, so maybe given licence to react and play in a certain way, that varies from the original plan as the game develops.

The second point momentum, is massive as it gives belief and confidence in what you are doing.

Lampard, has achieved the square root of FA as a manager. Just saying.

[sh1t_ref_again]

4 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Lampard, has achieved the square root of FA as a manager. Just saying.

But a fair bit as a player and has played for some of the best coaches, so i think his opinions would carry more weight. Having said that, sure most experienced players are no fools and will know if the tactics and what's being asked or the training methods are good and just not producing the results (which I hope is the case) or just nonsense 

[reddoh]

On 14/12/2023 at 20:05, Red Skin said:

But surely his style can only be judged in terms of the players ability to deliver it?   If the players are still learning and unable to implement it, then it isn't gonna look very good.

You're an IT man, Dave.  Everything is Agile these days.  You can't just take an IT dept that's been going waterfall and tell them now they're doing agile without giving them any proper training. Then when the first project using Agile fails, blame the methodology.  That would mad wouldn't it?

what's this new technology you speak of?

[Sheltons Army]

24 minutes ago, reddoh said:

what's this new technology you speak of?

Waterfall, agile ..... I think they are chatting about diving or kayaking...

I got a bit lost

 

[italian dave]

On 14/12/2023 at 20:53, W-S-M Seagull said:

  I like that. 

However I find it bizarre that people keep saying this. I think it says a lot about their own mentality. 

Just because I air my concerns, doesn't mean I don't support Manning. For now, he's the head coach. 

I support Bristol City so therefore by default I support Manning. I don't think Williams should start over TGH, however if he does I'll support him by default of my support for this club. 

I don't think the Lansdowns should be running this club. I don't think BT should be technical director. That doesn't mean I don't support the club and hoping that despite their limitations they can make the correct decisions. 

It may have been difficult for others to support Pearson when they didn't want him here but please don't put me in the same bracket as them. 

3pm on Saturday I'll be supporting us hopefully to 3 points regardless of who the owners are, regardless of who the head coach is and regardless of what team is selected. 

Interesting post - as are many of yours!

On that first point: is it about other people's mentality? Or just about how you say things and the fact that they disagree with you? You sometimes have a very one-sided view of these things. Which is why you post about what "City fans think" when what you mean is 'what I think. Or state that no-one has given you a reason why they see improvements, and when someone does, you ignore it and make the same assertion a few hours later. Ot persist with the assertion that "Manning has no time" aligned to this ridiculous top 6 obsession, despite that having been repeatedly challenged.

The sentiment behind the rest of the post I'd agree with 100%. I just find it hard to reconcile it with some (many) of the things you say on here. You greeted Manning to the club with endless posts about his sacking by MK Dons. You've been critical of everything he's done, pretty much relentlessly, and repeatedly, over the past few weeks. It's all pretty negative, and it's hardly what I'd call supportive.

Things just aren't black and white. I see very few people (on here) who 'didn't want Pearson here'. Just as you're endlessly critical of LM, so people can be critical of NP without "not wanting him here', or being 'anti Pearson. Like every manager, NP had his pluses and his minuses. he was good at some things, less so at others. Pearson did a fantastic job over his time here at getting the club out of its financial mess. Sometimes the football wasn't great.

But to turn this all into some sort of Pearson/Manning divide is so destructive. And some of the reaction of here in recent days as been so over the top as to be unreal. Talk of sackings and relegation (not you, I acknowledge). getting so hung up about six games: six games in which our results have been only very marginally worse than NPs last 6 (one win against one draw - and that from an extra home game against an extra away game), and several six game spells last season that were actually worse.

Maybe I'm being unfair. Maybe it's just how you come across. But in my mind you seem to be at the forefront of looking to pick holes wherever you can, to be critical for the sake of it...and that doesn't seem very supportive.