What do you do

[Clutton Caveman]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can you quantify in financial terms the lack of ambition point..£22.2m, £28.5m and of course the Covid affected years of £38m and £10m in losses across the prior 4 seasons. 

Can you quantify how we should demonstrate this, either in financial or intent based terms.

I think a big lose is no reflection on ambition. Much more a reflection of previous poor management. As I said they want to stay in the Championship to retain income level and maximise the chance of selling. £22.2 and 28.5 turned out to be the cost of staying in the championship.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Clutton Caveman said:

I think a big lose is no reflection on ambition. Much more a reflection of previous poor management. As I said they want to stay in the Championship to retain income level and maximise the chance of selling. £22.2 and 28.5 turned out to be the cost of staying in the championship.

Agreed but we are in good company!

Part of it is IMO mismanagement, part of it is the cost of doing business at this level.

That huge loss of £28.5m drops off after this season, increasing our breathing space a bit further. Think we have a solid base now but would've been more confident with Gould and NP combo at the helm.

[Bs4Red]

It’s always a real boggler how people think these players would have stayed. 
Premier League football is the absolute pinnacle for a player domestically. 
Increase in wages, playing with better players, more exposure. 
Scott and Semenyo moved on for all these reasons and B’mouth are a stepping stone for them as much as we were. 
That’s the football food chain.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Bs4Red said:

It’s always a real boggler how people think these players would have stayed. 
Premier League football is the absolute pinnacle for a player domestically. 
Increase in wages, playing with better players, more exposure. 
Scott and Semenyo moved on for all these reasons and B’mouth are a stepping stone for them as much as we were. 
That’s the football food chain.

Agreed although one to watch maybe Jordan James at Birmingham by which I mean, Atalanta top 6 Serie A and a useful stepping stone both in Italy and beyond ..yet Birmingham are turning down bids reportedly.

I know the PL outstrips Serie A but will be interesting to see how they hold out or don't..

[KegCity]

35 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

Disagree. 

Let's put it like this. You are doing a job, you are happy in that job, but another job comes along. That job is going to 3x your salary.  Now you come and speak to me, and I tell you don't worry about that fancy new job, within 2-3 years you will be in the same position here and on that money. You are not going to wait. Something could happen in a weeks time, which means that opportunity may disappear forever. 

Players don't really care who they play for, they just want to be in the top flight and on big money. The likes of Leicester are paying Premier League wages in the Championship and will be back there very soon. For that reason, the majority of players didn't wish or need to leave. We are not even close to knocking on the door, so there is no way we can say to these players, sorry we're not selling you. All you then end up with, is unhappy players, who if you stand in their way, will run a contract down and walk for nothing. If that happens, the fans would be fuming at the owners and manager! 

Plenty of clubs on the cusp of promotion have been able to keep their top players, they’ve taken them up with them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, KegCity said:

Plenty of clubs on the cusp of promotion have been able to keep their top players, they’ve taken them up with them.

Our window in the era of FFP for say Flint, Bryan, Reid was that season. We kept in January..a combination of FFP, a major loss in 2017-18 and contracts expiring meant losing them was inevitable if promotion didn't occur.

Nottingham Forest and Brennan Johnson is an interesting one but Covid may have assisted them greatly.

On the flipside, Sheffield Wednesday and Reading had an inability or unwillingness to sell and suffered terribly in the end.

Idk, seems there is no one size fits all.

[Bs4Red]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed although one to watch maybe Jordan James at Birmingham by which I mean, Atalanta top 6 Serie A and a useful stepping stone both in Italy and beyond ..yet Birmingham are turning down bids reportedly.

I know the PL outstrips Serie A but will be interesting to see how they hold out or don't..

Yeah interesting one for sure, Atalanta are a very tidy side. Lookman looks a totally new player out there and has been in fine form. 
I think going abroad for any young player is brilliant. 
I think Brum won’t hold out for long however I think he may go back on loan to Brum for rest of the season. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

Yeah interesting one for sure, Atalanta are a very tidy side. Lookman looks a totally new player out there and has been in fine form. 
I think going abroad for any young player is brilliant. 
I think Brum won’t hold out for long however I think he may go back on loan to Brum for rest of the season. 

They were. One of those who prospered in the era of FFP interestingly.

Top 6, top 8 budget in Italy maybe less, but reached the CL multiple times, strong academy..played some real adventurous attacking football under Gasperini a few years back in particular- open at both ends but it worked for them!

[robinforlife2]

28 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Plenty of clubs on the cusp of promotion have been able to keep their top players, they’ve taken them up with them.

We are not on the cusp of promotion ! 

[KegCity]

12 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

We are not on the cusp of promotion ! 

I know. Hence why I said in my original post that we need to make players believe they can get to the Premier League with us.

[robinforlife2]

28 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I know. Hence why I said in my original post that we need to make players believe they can get to the Premier League with us.

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

Essentially that is the norm for non Parachute clubs under the current system.

Ipswich may yet break the mould but check the last few seasons..

2019-20..WBA (Parachute), Leeds- Bielsa superb, non Parachute. Won it.

2020-21..Norwich (Parachute), Watford (Parachute).

2021-22..Fulham (Parachute), Bournemouth (Parachute).

2022-23..Burnley (Parachute), Sheffield United (Parachute).

2019-20, Fulham as a Parachute side won playoffs v non Parachute Brentford. Cardiff and Swansea both Parachute clubs too.

2020-21..Non Parachute Brentford win playoffs, Swansea who they beat were Parachute bolstered. Losing semi finalists Barnsley and Bournemouth were non-Parachute and Parachute respectively.

2021-22..Nottingham Forest who were non-Parachute surged and won the playoffs. Huddersfield who they beat were Parachute. Losing semi finalists Luton and Sheffield United were non Parachute and Parachute respectively.

2022-23..In a refreshing change all of Coventry, Luton, Middlesbrough and Sunderland were non Parachute sides!!

Edited January 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[reddoh]

6 hours ago, alexukhc said:

Work in pensions mate, what do you do?

f all retired

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I'd forgotten about the other half of the board.

Then again, I know absolutely nothing about him other than what I read on Linkedin.

Incidentally, I saw on Linkedin that Dave Barton has left as head of Comms for Bristol CIty to Head up Comms for Bristol Sport (or is it old news). They're looking for a replacement. Maybe JL was serious about improving the comms ? Or he's going to do it himself..

It’s old news for those who’ve known for a little while!

It new news formally though!

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can you quantify in financial terms the lack of ambition point..£22.2m, £28.5m and of course the Covid affected years of £38m and £10m in losses across the prior 4 seasons. 

Can you quantify how we should demonstrate this, either in financial or intent based terms.

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think a big lose is no reflection on ambition. Much more a reflection of previous poor management. As I said they want to stay in the Championship to retain income level and maximise the chance of selling. £22.2 and 28.5 turned out to be the cost of staying in the championship.

My view too.

[redkev]

3 hours ago, TV Tom said:

You’d think Semenyo & Scott (2 great players) would improve us massively though our finishing league positions the last two seasons might suggest otherwise or are we just over-achieving this season without them ?

On this seasons performances , the lack of creativity ( Scott brings to the table ) and a finisher and some pace / physicality ( Antoine ) brings , not saying everything would be rosy in the garden and we would be 2 points behind Leicester but I think we would be much more complete , 

perhaps our new one for the future ( yet another one ) will propel us to the promised land 

[Grey Fox]

3 hours ago, TV Tom said:

You’d think Semenyo & Scott (2 great players) would improve us massively though our finishing league positions the last two seasons might suggest otherwise or are we just over-achieving this season without them ?

Yes , the majority of teams in this league are much of a muchness, you could toss a coin as to who will win , they all have well coached championship standard players and managers who know enough to set up their team to at least frustrate the opposition. Two quality players make a lot of difference, imo would have placed us top six.

[Grey Fox]

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

So you don’t think we should even try ? In that case why do you go to the games?

[redkev]

I personally think the infrastructure is in place just need the right people overseeing the process ( god I hate that word )

[robinforlife2]

15 minutes ago, Grey Fox said:

So you don’t think we should even try ? In that case why do you go to the games?

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

We have a turnover of £36m or did in the last consolidated accounts.

For FFP you can lose £13m a year plus allowables if SL willing to fund it. Say £7m in allowables.

We can without the benefit of any sales run a cost base of up to £55-56m.

Wouldn't say subject to SL, we have a notable issue any time soon.

Edited January 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[robinforlife2]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We have a turnover of £36m or did in the last consolidated accounts.

For FFP you can lose £13m a year plus allowables if SL willing to fund it. Say £7m in allowables.

We can without the benefit of any sales run a cost base of up to £55-56m.

Wouldn't say subject to SL, we have  a notable issue any time soon.

We are already running at 20m loss avg each year, there is no space to expand that, we need sales to comply.

A turnover of 36m is one thing, but that includes sales and investment, ticket sales, tv rights, the lot. Remove the big sales every couple of years and we breach FFP.

[The Wild Bunch]

2 hours ago, robinforlife2 said:

Can't see it ever happening. If we get there, it will be striking it lucky via the playoffs. We're not set up to be challengers at this level, and we don't have the infrastructure to either. 

Exactly as Steve mentioned in his nest egg interview our plan now seems to be striking lucky via play-offs. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, robinforlife2 said:

We are already running at 20m loss avg each year, there is no space to expand that, we need sales to comply.

A turnover of 36m is one thing, but that includes sales and investment, ticket sales, tv rights, the lot. Remove the big sales every couple of years and we breach FFP.

That impact of 13 months needs factoring in.

I expect the underlying loss this year to be about £18m and that is before the impact of the Scott sale...time will tell if I'm correct or otherwise but underlying loss of anything up to £20m is probably okay for P&S.

[Grey Fox]

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Where did I say that we shouldn't even try? People are complaining we have to sell our best assets and that we should keep them. The fact is, without a sale every couple of years, we would breach FFP, we can't recruit quality, as we can't justify the wages. It's not about trying, it's about living within our means. We financially can't compete with the teams that have been in the top flight in the last three years and other sides who generate higher income than us.

If we sold out 27K every home game charging £40 a ticket, that brings in 25m a year in revenue, but the fans would whinge and say its too expensive. You either want us to use the model we have to, to survive and hope to get lucky, or the club needs to make money to be able to increase the spend. So, do fans want cheap seats for kids, cheap games and members offers, or do they want sky high ticket prices to justify bigger budgets. You can't have everything. 

We are not an attractive revenue stream sadly. There isn't mass following or mass merchandise sales and our tickets are generally quite reasonable and we look after the younger supporters. 

We have to sell to survive or to fund the next influx. Maybe if we have 8-10 years of selling a player for 10-15m+ a year, and we don't spend much of the money, then in 10 years there could be a pot to go for it for a couple of seasons without risking financial ruin, but its not about trying, we just aren't financially able to compete.

Just as well know one told Luton Town that , or Burnley , or Brentford , or at the time of promotion Brighton or Crystal Palace , Bournemouth etc etc. 
Remember , negative people have a problem for every solution

We are Bristol City not Cheltenham Town and absolutely should be challenging the biggest and the best, we should at least f*****( try.

[maxjak]

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

[Davefevs]

47 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Is it that simple?

Simple answer: yes!

When @headhunter interviewed Joe Royle last year he used the same words as you, even the same number!

48 minutes ago, maxjak said:

recruitment, recruitment and recruitment

It’s a major part.

The others are - Academy - to avoid the need to pay to recruit, and selling players to recruit the next lot.

FWIW I do think recruitment has improved.  I hope it continues to.

[maxjak]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Simple answer: yes!

When @headhunter interviewed Joe Royle last year he used the same words as you, even the same number!

It’s a major part.

The others are - Academy - to avoid the need to pay to recruit, and selling players to recruit the next lot.

FWIW I do think recruitment has improved.  I hope it continues to.

I honestly have not heard the Joe interview....I will seek it out, is that The Forever podcast?  I was there when JR scored all 4 against M'boro, always loved the guy.

[robinforlife2]

8 hours ago, Grey Fox said:

Just as well know one told Luton Town that , or Burnley , or Brentford , or at the time of promotion Brighton or Crystal Palace , Bournemouth etc etc. 
Remember , negative people have a problem for every solution

We are Bristol City not Cheltenham Town and absolutely should be challenging the biggest and the best, we should at least f*****( try.

Luton have sold their best players many a times, but have players on next to no money.

For years Brentford, Brighton and even Palace were selling clubs until they got to the Premier League and Brighton are still a feeder for top six clubs. 

[robinforlife2]

7 hours ago, maxjak said:

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

Brighton, also have Tony Bloom, a self made Billionaire and the heir of American Express through marriage! Those links have seen a stadium funded by sponsorship, and a big kick into the American Merchandise market. Like I have tried to say before, the wealth of an owner is not the only important thing, but the links they have and bring with it. We have a passionate local Billionaire, but he's brought no friends and links to the party to bring in outside money and help us build better.

SL may be wealthier at present than Tony Bloom, but Tony, is far more resourceful and connected, than SL will ever be. 

[cidered abroad]

7 hours ago, maxjak said:

Around 20 years ago we played Brighton at the Millenium Stadium, and we actually appeared at one time to have a certain symbiotic relationship with the South Coast side.  We lost that day to a late goal, and   from then on in   our trajectory's have veered in very different directions?  We had the major advantage of a Millionaire.....subsequently...... Billionaire owner, yet Brighton, 20 years on, are playing in Europe and sitting comfortably in 7 th place in the Premiership, while we continue to languish as a mid table Championship side, seemingly no closer to the Prem than we were 20 years ago?

 It seems to me that the difference between Brighton and Bristol City appears at first sight......... to be all about....recruitment, recruitment and recruitment?   Choosing the right manager, and having the right scouting system,  which allowed them to identify and recruit exactly the right type of player, whom they then sold on, and then continued to replace   with other excellent footballers, and in the meantime seek out outstanding manager/coaches to keep their ambitions nicely simmering away?

Is it that simple?  Is it purely their ability to find and recruit exactly the right players and management over the   years, which has allowed them to leave us in their slipstream, and all this, despite Bristol City seemingly   having all the advantages and support that should have allowed us to also reach and thrive in the Premiership, as they have?    What is the fundamental difference between our two sides, that has eventually ended up with such a massive disparity in our current positions?  Is it really all about buying the right players and employing the perfect manager/coach, or is there more to it?          I WANT to know?   Ha!!

Simply the difference is that Lansdown is an accountant without one ounce of football knowledge and also he hasn't employed football people to run the club. Eg. his son!

And when he has employed football people, they don't last long enough to change and improve the FOOTBALL CLUB before he gets rid of them.