Awaiting Silvio’s post…

[johnheadbcfc]

2 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Oh I do apologise.

Tell me, what money was spent following the Alex Scott sale?

He wasn't backed that summer and I haven't said any different. One transfer wi dow would not of changed this squad hugely from what it is.

 

[Fuber]

20 minutes ago, johnheadbcfc said:

Yeah but part aswel in Pearson preferred a small squad 

He preferred a smaller squad than what he inherited.

Which considering how much of a car crash he inherited doesn't say much.

When he was pressed on it, he rightly pointed finger upstairs and just replied 'budget'.

[johnheadbcfc]

Just now, Fuber said:

He preferred a smaller squad than what he inherited.

Which considering how much of a car crash he inherited doesn't say much.

When he was pressed on it, he rightly pointed finger upstairs and just replied 'budget'.

All managers work to a budget , he knew what he was getting into and did his best.

 

[1960maaan]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Those opening 3-5 mins was a huge momentum shift, but also a complete change of the way the game had been played out beforehand.  It wasn’t just PNE becoming more effective when they had it, it was our decreasing effectiveness too.

I worry that seeing us dominated like that and after watching them create a couple of real good chances , we still sat and waited. I think the change to what looked like a 3/5 at the back was possibly the right one. I can't remember seeing Vyner dominated like that for some time. We are short a central defender so it was difficult to make that change quickly, specially as we couldn't rely on McCrorie for too long. I think if we could have brought him on to play RCB of a 3 earlier it might have countered their threat, who knows. 
It's our inability to counter changes is a worry, once we surrender dominance we rarely get it back

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Bigger problem for me is Manning was and is the wrong man for this squad of players.

They were not bought in to play possession football and neither are they capable of it. NPs premise was to play to a system to force openings on the transition via patterns.

Mannings premise appears to be waiting for opening when the enemy loses, i.e. take the openings when they appear passively, not force them. A one-eighty in footballing philosophy.

It's going to take money we don't have to get the staff in to pull it off - had and still has a similar vibe for me as Duff at Swansea.

Whereas if this was end of the third season under LJ with (present) Manning in to replace him - it could've worked as that was a much more technically skilled and creative players. I'd be more optimistic. 

Sadly the leadership's view of this squad between JL and BT is seemingly delusional delusional.

Good post, totally get your points, even if I’m a bit mixed on whether I agree or not (not that you need my agreement I hasten to add! )

But your final sentence I agree totally.

[Galley is our king]

12 minutes ago, johnheadbcfc said:

He wasn't backed that summer and I haven't said any different. One transfer wi dow would not of changed this squad hugely from what it is.

 

Oh thank you for agreeing with me 

He WASN'T backed in the summer....

.....END OF!!

[Clevedon Red]

46 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

The trouble is that he’s taken over what I think is a poor squad, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear !!!

Nor polish a turd. 

[ExiledAjax]

32 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

This in the week where both Manning and Joe Williams said we need problem solvers on the pitch. You are correct, bodies need to come in.

If we want to challenge this season then yes. But I don't think it's really possible or likely that we are going to bring in enough quality in the next couple of weeks, and bed them in, and get them effective, for it to really be worth it.

The alternative is to write this season off as a **** up, and save the £ for the summer when we should get better value. 

All of this was the same under the previous manger in my opinion. We never had the squad for top 6 this season. Maybe a first XI, but not the depth of squad to be resilient and adaptable enough to deal with 46 games against a variety of teams and styles.

[Numero Uno]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

If we want to challenge this season then yes. But I don't think it's really possible or likely that we are going to bring in enough quality in the next couple of weeks, and bed them in, and get them effective, for it to really be worth it.

The alternative is to write this season off as a **** up, and save the £ for the summer when we should get better value. 

All of this was the same under the previous manger in my opinion. We never had the squad for top 6 this season. Maybe a first XI, but not the depth of squad to be resilient and adaptable enough to deal with 46 games against a variety of teams and styles.

Agree with most of that and, for me, what the club give Liam in terms of resources in the next 6-7 months (two transfer windows) will be the indicator of where we are REALLY heading.

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

If we want to challenge this season then yes. But I don't think it's really possible or likely that we are going to bring in enough quality in the next couple of weeks, and bed them in, and get them effective, for it to really be worth it.

The alternative is to write this season off as a **** up, and save the £ for the summer when we should get better value. 

All of this was the same under the previous manger in my opinion. We never had the squad for top 6 this season. Maybe a first XI, but not the depth of squad to be resilient and adaptable enough to deal with 46 games against a variety of teams and styles.

Agree completely.

I’d also add Coventry are replicating last season, poor start (different reasons) now steaming away. 6th suddenly looks less achievable.

West Brom in fifth already look to me to have too many points for us to close the gap.

Start again in the summer..

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree with most of that and, for me, what the club give Liam in terms of resources in the next 6-7 months (two transfer windows) will be the indicator of where we are REALLY heading.

 

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Agree completely.

I’d also add Coventry are replicating last season, poor start (different reasons) now steaming away. 6th suddenly looks less achievable.

West Brom in fifth already look to me to have too many points for us to close the gap.

Start again in the summer..

Thanks both

I'd add that for me, ever since Johnson/Ashton/Holden left and we went into the "Great Reset", season 24/25 has been the one to target for "The Push".

I don't think anything has really changed that for me. I'd have swapped manager at the end of this season rather than halfway through, but that's about the only major change for me.

[Simon bristol]

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Agree completely.

I’d also add Coventry are replicating last season, poor start (different reasons) now steaming away. 6th suddenly looks less achievable.

West Brom in fifth already look to me to have too many points for us to close the gap.

Start again in the summer..

I agree, but theres nothing to suggest if we do rebuild in the summer that anything will actually change, just that weve sold the family silver, and no one js worth much until we find another great academy player

[1960maaan]

30 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Sadly the leadership's view of this squad between JL and BT is seemingly delusional delusional.

IMO, and I stress it is just my opinion , that was all bluff and excuse used to cover up or make excuses for getting rid of Pearson.  I doubt they really thought we had a top 6 squad, we don't have a top 10 budget so as I say bluff.

They have what they wanted, Nige out and the new man in place, now they have to back him or look even more foolish, although backing him will also make them look foolish or at least liars as we had a budget to stick to. 

[Super]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There’s a big difference between preferring a small squad of say 22 competitive players and being forced into a small squad made up as it was.  The first one is less exposed by injuries than the second one.  It’s about the make-up of the small squad not that’s it’s small.

Today Manning had more senior players available to him than Nige had from Plymouth onwards.  It’s not a Nige v Manning thing, just stating that this was the fullest squad we’ve had in ages (19th Sept).

Those opening 3-5 mins was a huge momentum shift, but also a complete change of the way the game had been played out beforehand.  It wasn’t just PNE becoming more effective when they had it, it was our decreasing effectiveness too.

It's always a Nige v Manning thing. Literally the same posters creating it on most threads.

Edited January 13 by Super

[Numero Uno]

21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

IMO, and I stress it is just my opinion , that was all bluff and excuse used to cover up or make excuses for getting rid of Pearson.  I doubt they really thought we had a top 6 squad, we don't have a top 10 budget so as I say bluff.

They have what they wanted, Nige out and the new man in place, now they have to back him or look even more foolish, although backing him will also make them look foolish or at least liars as we had a budget to stick to. 

This is the problem with talking bollocks.

[2015]

Our tactical setup is no good against compact team's. Simple as that. We're good at exploiting empty space. Basically we're good at counter attacking and have been for years.

[UncleRed]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Our tactical setup is no good against compact team's. Simple as that. We're good at exploiting empty space. Basically we're good at counter attacking and have been for years.

By good do you mean finishing mid table at best?

[Dr Balls]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Agree. Lots of us were saying we were well on top at HT, just had to find a goal etc. It would have taken a real Nostradamus to foresee a triple sub from Lowe, and to simultaneously react to/pre-empt it at HT.

But this is also completely correct. You can't see a manager change three players, who then combine to have two good chances before 50 minutes have gone...and do nothing. Reaction needs to happen. 

And these go hand-in-hand imo. A lack of adaptability means that it is possible for teams to work is out, and to then be confident that their counter-plan won't itself be countered. 

It's quite hard to fix without either expanding or evolving the squad.

This goes back to my concern about Manning as a coach. He has one way of playing and believes in that process, even when it’s clear it’s no longer working. And he can’t seem to adapt to changes made by other managers/coaches with tweaks to formation, substitutions etc. He just carries on with the same and then seems surprised when it no longer works. That’s really worrying and far more concerning than the players not being able to figure out for themselves what changes are needed.

[ExiledAjax]

"Of course the last time these two teams met here at Ashton Gate West Ham fielded an ineligible player...let's hope they've not done so today."

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

This goes back to my concern about Manning as a coach. He has one way of playing and believes in that process, even when it’s clear it’s no longer working. And he can’t seem to adapt to changes made by other managers/coaches with tweaks to formation, substitutions etc. He just carries on with the same and then seems surprised when it no longer works. That’s really worrying and far more concerning than the players not being able to figure out for themselves what changes are needed.

 

yes, that’s the first little worry-beed for me, and it’s not just a knee-jerk from today either.

[ExiledAjax]

31 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

This goes back to my concern about Manning as a coach. He has one way of playing and believes in that process, even when it’s clear it’s no longer working. And he can’t seem to adapt to changes made by other managers/coaches with tweaks to formation, substitutions etc. He just carries on with the same and then seems surprised when it no longer works. That’s really worrying and far more concerning than the players not being able to figure out for themselves what changes are needed.

I agree, and it was discussed at the time. I wondered at the time whether he would adapt, or whether the squad would need to adapt.

I think we've seen him adapt a bit, on occasion, but we've also seen him try and steer the squad to his style...and that's proving difficult.

I think he is limited by the squad though, it's size, it's ability, it's depth, just the whole make up really.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Simon bristol said:

I agree, but theres nothing to suggest if we do rebuild in the summer that anything will actually change, just that weve sold the family silver, and no one js worth much until we find another great academy player

Probably not, beyond the argument that Manning currently doesn’t have “his” players & with Weimann almost out the door, King & James virtually certain to follow him & a decision to make on Williams, there is some scope to shape it his way.

Still not expecting a top six challenge myself.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

You could also least tag me Fevs, I might not have seen this!

Theres a lot I could say today but you’re right - it would follow the similar pattern about reacting in game. We were the better side for my money half one but I don’t think LM anticipated the change made by Lowe - and to be fair, I’m not sure many of us would but there was always a chance - manager in last chance saloon, booed off, what’s to lose? The trick is once that unexpected change was made not to be all rabbit in headlights and just assume “the process” would work - we were being asked different questions.

There are two real points for me today. The first is the adaptability in game - that’s obvious. The second is that teams know how to play us. I’m fascinated to see what Watford do next week having been torn apart by us - for me Ishmael is a good enough coach to ask a different question to Boxing Day with what he knows now.

Finally, I’ll leave it for now with the thought that a certain Brian Tinnion should remember the 1993/94 season. We were better than Liverpool for 2 2/3 games. Had less of the ball than them. In the league it was turgid stuff with a mid table record and less than a goal a game scored. The turgid football was found out and the next season was a disaster. Just saying.

Yep. I’m with you on most of that. 
 

Here’s my take on today. 
First half we were the better team. Not just narrowly, but quite clearly. 
Gardner-Hickman really needs to take that huuuge chance. 
Yes, 1 on 1’s get missed and keepers make saves, but this division is tight, this game was always gonna be tight and stodgy, so it is vital that you capitalise on your BIG chances. That was a huge chance. 
It was a great tackle from Williams, TGH looked uncertain bearing down on goal, he didn’t know whether to pass or shoot. He ballsed that one up big time. 
 

Knight had chances and with a couple of them he really snatched at them. He looked very anxious and rushed today. Maybe the captaincy?? 
 

At half time I was quite content. 
 

2nd half was terrible. 
 

Yes, PNE made the changes and it was clear that we had to attempt to counter that. And we didn’t. 
We lost our heads. We lost our ability to pass the ball. We were rushed and unsteady. All of the bad habits that I’ve always thought many of this squad had, were in clear evidence again - ie the basics.

However, I do think we just about overcame that early 2nd half spell and were starting to feel our way back and then, wallop!!! A HUGE error from Max. That isn’t ’scapegoating’ or anything, it’s a simple fact. I mean, what the hell did he think he was trying to achieve. 
That said, it was a poor header from Tanner in the first place - I mean what a great flick on for the assist. Again, not scapegoating, and I’ve been consistent in this for 2 years that I don’t think Tanner is anywhere near good enough. He showed me again. 
 

Lots of static defending today. That 2nd goal was awful. No pressure on the ball, no intent, no anticipation, just stationary players. 
 

Player-wise. Tanner poor. Max at fault for the goal that changed the game. Vyner static. TGH should have scored and was otherwise ponderous and slow. Mehmeti ineffective. Bell non-existent. Conway isolated. Only Joe Williams leaves that game with any credit for me. I think he’s been our best player in the last 4-6 weeks. Is he playing for a contract? Don’t know. Maybe. But he’s certainly been our best player of late. Without a doubt. 
 

Manager-wise. 
I didn’t like what I saw today. We were passive. We were not composed. We needed to capitalise on our big chance and we shouldn’t make ridiculous keeper errors which led to the first goal. But all that said, Manning has to carry the can today. That 2nd half was bad. Reaction did need to happen to their half time adjustments. When change finally did happen I thought he got it terribly wrong. He went to 3 at the back. I 100% disagree that this is the right move. In fact I thought the 2nd goal came as a result of that shape change. Dickie found himself having to close down a wide player and was slow to do it, leaving Vyner isolated at the near post. That goal for me is a direct result of the shape change. 
If he wanted to get McCrorie on, it should have been a straight swap for Tanner, who was terrible. Moving your weakest link to centre back will never be the right move in my eyes. 
As for the 2nd set of subs - well, I’ll be consistent here - I was always harsh on Nige when he decided to play the useless and well past it King. So I will say the same to Manning. Ridiculous sub. It doesn’t matter to me that it was only for 3 minutes. I just don’t see what the bloke will contribute to a game. So Liam, same message as I always said to Nige - forget bloody King!! 
 

I just mentioned McCrorie. Look, I know the bloke has been out for a long time, so I’m not gonna go all in, and I’ll give him plenty of time to judge, but that was a horrendously poor ‘cameo’ today. Gave the ball away literally every time he had it. And in fact it was his giveaway that led to the 2nd goal. But as said, he’s been out a long time. 
I’d suggest that maybe Manning got it wrong here too. I don’t think McCrorie was ready. Needs another couple of reserve games. I don’t think Manning should have brought him on in a deficit situation, away from home, for his long awaited debut, as part of a shape change, when he clearly wasn’t yet up to scratch. 
 

I said prior to Manning arriving here that I didn’t think we had the squad to suit him. I was actually quite encouraged by ‘some’ of the things I’ve seen in ‘some’ of the games so far. But there are other games, and specifically today, where it’s again clear to me that this squad and Manning are not a match. 
There are 3 ways to change that scenario. 1) Improve the players you’ve got. 2) Manager changes his philosophies. 3) Buy players to suit. 
 

I’m convinced that a lot of our players can’t cope with option 1.  I’m pretty sure that option 2 won’t happen - it’s Lm’s style, why should he change it!  So it’s left to option 3. 

Ultimately if we want a squad that is capable of fully implementing LM’s philosophies then we need a lot of new players. 
And that is where, as we’ve all been very sure of, that BT and JL carry the can for their stupid/naive comments (or poor excuses as we can confidently call it). 
This is not and never has been a “top end” squad. It is not and never has been the “best squad we’ve had for years”. The squad has been built as an out of possession counter attacking team. Manning, as has always been said, is not an out of possession counterattacking manager. That’s not his fault. That’s just what he is. If Jon and Brian wanted him then they will need to furnish him with players that suit him. So the buck, for me, will always rest with JL & BT. 
I think LM has tried to implement his philosophies and soon realised that many of our players are not up to it. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’d suggest that maybe Manning got it wrong here too. I don’t think McCrorie was ready. Needs another couple of reserve games. I don’t think Manning should have brought him on in a deficit situation, away from home, for his long awaited debut, as part of a shape change, when he clearly wasn’t yet up to scratch. 

Agree, absolutely no need to rush him.  Being back in the squad was a nice little boost to his recovery, no need to be a bit desperate to play him, unless say Tanner got injured or sent off.

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ultimately if we want a squad that is capable of fully implementing LM’s philosophies then we need a lot of new players. 

Do you honestly think we can either:

1. afford the players required to play that style and succeed?
2. recruit expertly to avoid spending millions and millions?

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Do you honestly think we can either:

1. afford the players required to play that style and succeed?
2. recruit expertly to avoid spending millions and millions?

The short answer to both is clearly no. We’re swimming in the same pond as a lot of people who want to play the same way. It’s in vogue - and if you look at a lot of recent managerial appointments they follow that blueprint. Some we can outspend (Millwall). Some we can’t (Southampton).
 

So the options are pretty simple, on the assumption we’re sticking with Liam and he’s sticking with his style (both safe assumptions) - it’s either spend an absolute bucketload or rely on his coaching skills to bring players through over the medium term. And again I’ll then flag he hasn’t a history of bringing players through in his head coach jobs to date (noted that he hasn’t been I jobs long enough to majorly influence)

I can’t see either of those happening tbh for reasons I’ve stated on other threads.

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

IMO, and I stress it is just my opinion , that was all bluff and excuse used to cover up or make excuses for getting rid of Pearson.  I doubt they really thought we had a top 6 squad, we don't have a top 10 budget so as I say bluff.

They have what they wanted, Nige out and the new man in place, now they have to back him or look even more foolish, although backing him will also make them look foolish or at least liars as we had a budget to stick to. 

And they think we’re all idiots & wont see through it . I do think they’re so arrogant that they don’t give a ****. As Lansdown said . It’s my club . *** 

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

This goes back to my concern about Manning as a coach. He has one way of playing and believes in that process, even when it’s clear it’s no longer working. And he can’t seem to adapt to changes made by other managers/coaches with tweaks to formation, substitutions etc. He just carries on with the same and then seems surprised when it no longer works. That’s really worrying and far more concerning than the players not being able to figure out for themselves what changes are needed.

I said I will make a judgment in February, I might as well stick to that .
He has one way of playing, he likes possession , but that doesn't mean he can't adjust formation or shape . 
I will give him the benefit and say, maybe he has been trying to get them to retain the ball, ingrain the movement needed to be able to play and may gradually bring in other shapes or set ups down the line, I don't know but we can only hope. We have improved in possession, but there are times we look lost . Games like Birmingham, Millwall and 2nd half today, nowhere near looking as though we can pass let alone retain the ball, this is where Manning must earn his corn.

I differ from many on here, I think that players at Championship level can be turned into possession minded. It may have to be drummed into some and others may not cope, but most I believe can . The problem we have is consistency and being able to change things on the fly.
This is where my main worry is .
He is detail led and coaches players throughout the game , it was mentioned before how he walked Mehmeti through the first half a few weeks ago, then 2nd half when he wasn't close enough AM's performances dropped , extreme example but I wonder if that detail impacts when things go wrong. Everyone has been coached and cajoled into retaining the ball, to the extent it looks like some 2nd guess themselves and don't play the quick ball that is on. I may be wrong , but whatever , I think come Feb we will be able to see where we stand and with luck and some new recruits things may look a little better. We can only hope.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The short answer to both is clearly no. We’re swimming in the same pond as a lot of people who want to play the same way. It’s in vogue - and if you look at a lot of recent managerial appointments they follow that blueprint. Some we can outspend (Millwall). Some we can’t (Southampton).
 

So the options are pretty simple, on the assumption we’re sticking with Liam and he’s sticking with his style (both safe assumptions) - it’s either spend an absolute bucketload or rely on his coaching skills to bring players through over the medium term. And again I’ll then flag he hasn’t a history of bringing players through in his head coach jobs to date (noted that he hasn’t been I jobs long enough to majorly influence)

I can’t see either of those happening tbh for reasons I’ve stated on other threads.

So basically, in your opinion, we are currently in the SH1T.

I must say, when NP was dismissed (and replaced by LM) I felt any chance of a playoff position this season went with him.

My only hope for this season now rests with a victory on Tuesday and, hopefully, a relatively successful FA Cup run.

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Do you honestly think we can either:

1. afford the players required to play that style and succeed?
2. recruit expertly to avoid spending millions and millions?

Ha ha. I was planning on having a quiet night Dave. This question, as I know you very well know, is gonna get my hackles right up

As said, there are 3 ways that this goes :

1) Coach the current players to play LM’s way. 
Answer - I can’t see it. I’ve always said I just can’t see the players being able to regularly sustain the style LM wants. Patches, yes. But not consistently or quick/slick enough. 
 

2) LM adapts to this squad. 
This is a comment I see a lot. Yes. Maybe he should. But my argument would be; why should he?? We’ve recruited him as manager based on what we’ve seen him produce in previous roles. He has a very clear CV.  Why would you hire a cocktail-shaker to work in the cloakroom? Why would you hire a sparky to sort out your plumbing (and other such crap analogies). 
 

3) Buy players to suit the managers style. 
This is all we can be left with. I just don’t see options 1 or 2 as credible. 
 

So, to answer your questions. Can we afford to buy the style of players required? The answer to that is Yes. It can definitely be done. 
But of course that leads into question 2) can we recruit expertly. 
My answer to that is a resounding and very sorry No. 

As you know, I have very little faith in our recruitment structure and team. I’m sure Brian is very keen to complete his TGH deal that he’s oh so very proud of. And yes, TGH is a good player, I’m not doubting that. But does he suit LM’s style. I personally don’t think he does, no. 
We will of course sign him. But I’m not actually convinced LM would target him if he wasn’t already here. 
And as you’ve noted elsewhere re Knight. The recruitment team and Brian are oh so proud of him too. And I again say that yes he’s a very good player. But hand on heart, if he wasn’t already here, would Manning have him on a list of targets? I’d say the answer to that is also no. 
 

Anyway. A quiet night for me.

So my short answer to your questions are :

1) Yes. It’s very do-able. 
2) No. I have no trust in our recruitment. 

Edited January 13 by Harry

[steviestevieneville]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree, absolutely no need to rush him.  Being back in the squad was a nice little boost to his recovery, no need to be a bit desperate to play him, unless say Tanner got injured or sent off.

Do you honestly think we can either:

1. afford the players required to play that style and succeed?
2. recruit expertly to avoid spending millions and millions?

If the only choice in Harry’s scenario is to rebuild . Which I agree with . Then we end up back where we were when nige came in . Rinse & repeat . Another wasted three years . 
If I could go back in history to when little Jon was scribbling on the walls at home and said . Daddy can you take me to Bristol city . A sopranos like hit would of been in order