Too Much Negativity

[Super]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

About time. 

I'll listen to posters on here that actually have a clue.

[RedRoss]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is the thing I keep coming back to. 

Why can't Manning get the best out of this squad that is a decent squad? Other managers have taken over other teams before and have made them out perform their ability in a short space of time, so why can't Manning do that? 

We're 18 games in with Manning and there is a nagging concern that there is no plan b. 

The QPR game was an interesting one. I think Manning puts far too much emphasis on tactics and not enough on motivational stuff. I suspect that probably has something to do with his lack of emotions and him constantly saying he wants to remove emotions from the players. 

We've shown when we want it we can match anyone. The problem is it felt like QPR wanted it more than us. We can all look at the tactics til were blue in the face but the reality is we just didn't really want it against QPR. I'm not sure if Manning has that motivational factor in his skillset based on his beliefs about emotions. 

I think his inability to harness emotions is probably going to be his downfall here. 

Even Man City, the best coached team in the world have a manager who is very emotional. It's why City always go on these incredible runs in the second half of the season. Being part of the CFG group previously. You'd have thought Manning may have learned that it's not all about tactics. 

So we didn't have a plan B for Southampton? We didn't want it more than them? We didn't show any aggression/emotion when we played one of the best teams in the division?

I agree that we need to work on beating the teams the set up like QPR however you never look at the other side of the coin when assessing Manning's performance. 

That issue is not indicative of just Manning's tenure, that was equally frustrating when NP was managing us. We've had that issue for ages. Whether that's due to the young makeup of the team or some other reason we struggle with that element of breaking teams down, we also struggle with overall game management. 

I'm not acknowledging it's not an issue but let's not pretend this is a new thing. 

 

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

For me , I don’t think we can afford to assemble a ready made squad to play that way

So , to think of a run at promotion by any means ,

 

Manning either needs to prove to be an exceptional ,or at least excellent coach in drilling 11 v 11 on training ground , significantly improving / developing players we can afford , and be very good tactically in game 

Or

We we find a more pragmatic way to win games , probably more Luton than Burnley (I cant see Manning ever considering this)

I haven’t looked at any stats and only watched them casually , and Fevs will correct me if I’m wrong , but I don’t see them as possession based at all

Id certainly describe their football as front foot , which we certainly are not , for all the spout by Tinnion  

22 minutes ago, Super said:

We don't have a creative midfielder unless you have suddenly dreamed up a replacement for Scott. You're talking nonsense again.

You can be creative without an Alex Scott!

Using Shelt’s Ipswich example, do they have a creative midfielder, let alone one like Alex Scott?  Nope!  So how come they create chances for their forwards?  

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You can be creative without an Alex Scott!

Using Shelt’s Ipswich example, do they have a creative midfielder, let alone one like Alex Scott?  Nope!  So how come they create chances for their forwards?  

Maybe they have better players.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Super said:

Maybe they have better players.

Why do they have better players (if indeed that is true)?

[Super]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Why do they have better players (if indeed that is true)?

I haven't watched Ipswich too much but at the gate when they beat us they were a well organised team

[Dr Balls]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You can be creative without an Alex Scott!

Using Shelt’s Ipswich example, do they have a creative midfielder, let alone one like Alex Scott?  Nope!  So how come they create chances for their forwards?  

Well you can certainly see that fast and direct is not very successful given that most of those clubs make up the bottom of the table. Our problem would appear to be that we are slow but not very intricate. And if those stats include all our passes back and forth along the back 4, it’s even more damning!

[Dr Balls]

And the other detail in your table @Davefevs that is very relevant for our upcoming matches is that Cardiff are very effective at scoring from set plays. 

Edited February 22 by Dr Balls

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Well if the plan in October really was get rid of Pearson and go for the playoffs, because of the upcoming financial changes, then what we have seen since really has been a failure.

As for the argument that our strikers are rubbish and need replacing, that’s baloney. The problem is the lack of service and opportunities. Our xG is so low, because we create so little. The front players are living off scraps, such as mistakes by the opposition defenders rather than anything delivered by their own team mates. You could have Harry Kane up front for us and he would have trouble scoring given our current playing “style”.

Exactly! It’s so obvious. We simply don’t get the ball to Wells Conway et al enough, because we are so concentrated on keeping the ball miles from the opposition goal and it’s guaranteed we will lose it eventually. 
 

I was so fed up after the Leeds game. We were completely dominated by a team that knew how to beat us. Simple win the ball and move it forward quickly as we are slow to recover

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree on both counts, on the first especially but I'm just trying to rationalise it all. Still months on it is hard.

I am convinced Tinnion agreed with Jon boy's expert assessment that the squad should do better and persuaded the dummy to appoint him into an effective DoF role which they knew Pearson wouldnt accept.

They didnt expect the fallout though when they appointed who they think is a keen malleable coach.

Sid got what he wanted that was the plan.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Super said:

I haven't watched Ipswich too much but at the gate when they beat us they were a well organised team

Man for man I don't see anything amazing there.

Luongo, Morsy as your midfield base. Hirst, Broadhead, Burns..Travis as first reserve. Moore is a bit of a marquee loan granted.

Again Hladky and Walton, okay but are we sure.

Go through the side and there are very few stellar players.

They're all okay but there us no real wow what a star of the present or future there.

Davis is clearly impressive but if they stay down gravity next year will catch up somewhat.

Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous

[Abraham Romanovich]

46 minutes ago, Super said:

I'll listen to posters on here that actually have a clue.

Good luck with that, if they did they wouldn't be wasting their time by posting on here.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King

[REDOXO]

42 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

So we didn't have a plan B for Southampton? We didn't want it more than them? We didn't show any aggression/emotion when we played one of the best teams in the division?

I agree that we need to work on beating the teams the set up like QPR however you never look at the other side of the coin when assessing Manning's performance. 

That issue is not indicative of just Manning's tenure, that was equally frustrating when NP was managing us. We've had that issue for ages. Whether that's due to the young makeup of the team or some other reason we struggle with that element of breaking teams down, we also struggle with overall game management. 

I'm not acknowledging it's not an issue but let's not pretend this is a new thing. 

 

Teams set up in ways that make them difficult to beat. It’s football when you are scrapping for points so yes it’s been a problem for us to win games consistently against deep defenses. 
 

However Mr Manning style of football makes it doubly difficult as we are to slow to deliberate to cumbersome to break down deep lying teams

We are playing a style that invites lower teams to set up the same way and gives them an opportunity while we can’t get the ball into shooting positions  

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Teams set up in ways that make them difficult to beat. It’s football when you are scrapping for points so yes it’s been a problem for us to win games consistently against deep defenses. 
 

However Mr Manning style of football makes it doubly difficult as we are to slow to deliberate to cumbersome to break down deep lying teams

We are playing a style that invites lower teams to set up the same way and gives them an opportunity while we can’t get the ball into shooting positions  

 

If only we could combine a bit of each or should I say Manning could.

Press hard when you don't have it, mix it between patience and speed when you do...

...Or build on the pressing base by keeping it but improving both the quality and quantity of possession when we do.

Hopefully that is the goal.

Plus if you use possession reasonably well when you have it, you can press more intensely when you lose it to win it back.

Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Super said:

I haven't watched Ipswich too much but at the gate when they beat us they were a well organised team

So, it’s their organisation then, not that they have better players?  First of all it was our strikers, then it was our lack of a creative player!

Your reasons are like Trigger’s broom!

[Tim Monaghan]

2 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

It looks like next season really will be one of “no excuses”.

- The club will be better placed for FFP.

- The new structure will be wedded in.

- Manning will have had a pre-season.

- His players will have been recruited.

- O’Neils will have had a suitable production cycle.

- The club shop have a local supplier who can deliver to demand.

That’s a lot of pressure and, to be honest, I’m pretty pessimistic about it all. Hopefully I’m wrong but, good or bad, it does feel like it’s all coming to a head.

This is exactly where I'm at, next season is probably one of the most crucial I can remember.  I never thought that we would be up there this season even though JL and GM alluded (more than alluded) to it after Pearsons sacking.  Basically they had to say that, however, that has heaped the pressure on for next season x100.  Of course, a lot of people were fuming at the way the sacking of Nigel was done, myself included. It was toxic wasn't it, but imagine how toxic it will become if we aren't challenging next year. I include myself into this. At the end of the day, I think Manning is the right fit for the club, and actually one of the most exciting managerial appointments for me since, well, Nigel, but he will have to deliver. If Liam doesn't deliver next season, well, I think JL and SL are in deep.........  You can't recover from that can you really, especially with the history they've got when it comes to managerial appointments and the league position that we were in when the NP sacking was made.

I really hope it doesn't get to that stage, and JL, BT and GM will be fully aware of the fans feeling around this.  As the post above states, there really isn't any excuses next season to be up there after what JL, GM and BT have said. None whatsoever. It really is do or die and this is the final straw with the fans I feel. 

We are certainly in for an interesting season, that's for sure. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The thing about Ipswich too, it won't just be us thinking "If them why not us".

10-15 others probably likewise. Maybe more.

Bigger resourced higher ranked in recent years such as Middlesbrough, Sunderland, 2 Parachute clubs such as Norwich and Watford..Ipswich competing as they are with many of their players being unremarkable with respect defies rational analysis really. Coventry too, on an upward curve and small matter of play-off finalists. Hull with players like Philogene, Delap, West Brom.

It does defy rational analysis to a degree.

You could compare to us under GJ but they have 69 from 33, we obtained 74 from 46 so that is a difference.

Edited February 22 by Mr Popodopolous

[robinforlife2]

"We're Bristol City, We Moan Every Week"

[Super]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, it’s their organisation then, not that they have better players?  First of all it was our strikers, then it was our lack of a creative player!

Your reasons are like Trigger’s broom!

Maybe it's both! I think we'll give them more of a game than we did earlier in the season.

Edited February 22 by Super

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Super said:

Maybe it's both! I think we'll give them more of a game than we did earlier in the season.

Yep, a drastically reduced injury list, was 8 before thst game and rose to 9, then 10 during will help.

[DaveInSA]

I’d love to see some stats from @Davefevs along the lines of :

• Players making good runs unmarked but not found by passes
• Players idly running around not pulling defenders out of position
• Good runs with successful pass completions
• Good runs with successful pass completions and chances created with high xG

Good runs is a bit open for interpretation, I would say into the final third and into space, where defenders have not tracked or marked the runner.

Based on what I’ve seen, our levels of movement and passing are poor, at least when opposition defenders are set.

We’re much much better when we win the ball, opposition defenders aren’t set and we play with instinct and pace.

This is the conundrum that Manning needs to solve. And I don’t think he will - at least not here.

[Ivorguy]

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

"We're Bristol City, We Moan Every Week"

Like every other fans forum.

The only way to stop, or at least staunch, the moaning is to have a charismatic 20+ striker.  Fat chance, unless we find one from our youth set up.

would I make the long overnight and expensive trip to AG for potentially the rubbish served up against QPR?   Short answer, NO.  Long answer, DEFINITELY NO.

 

This is meant to be part of the entertainments industry but before you get pitchside

No, or little, thought about how fans get to ground

Really poor catering.  Take a look at catering at short form cricket.

impossible PA syste.  No improvement over 70years ago

Embarrassing celebration of our finest(?} moments

uncomfortable seating

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22 by Ivorguy

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said:

This is exactly where I'm at, next season is probably one of the most crucial I can remember.  I never thought that we would be up there this season even though JL and GM alluded (more than alluded) to it after Pearsons sacking.  Basically they had to say that, however, that has heaped the pressure on for next season x100.  Of course, a lot of people were fuming at the way the sacking of Nigel was done, myself included. It was toxic wasn't it, but imagine how toxic it will become if we aren't challenging next year. I include myself into this. At the end of the day, I think Manning is the right fit for the club, and actually one of the most exciting managerial appointments for me since, well, Nigel, but he will have to deliver. If Liam doesn't deliver next season, well, I think JL and SL are in deep.........  You can't recover from that can you really, especially with the history they've got when it comes to managerial appointments and the league position that we were in when the NP sacking was made.

I really hope it doesn't get to that stage, and JL, BT and GM will be fully aware of the fans feeling around this.  As the post above states, there really isn't any excuses next season to be up there after what JL, GM and BT have said. None whatsoever. It really is do or die and this is the final straw with the fans I feel. 

We are certainly in for an interesting season, that's for sure. 

 

Sensible post

Re bit in bold.  So do I (believe it or not), but I think he’s the equivalent of the PPI scandal…he’s been mis-sold by the hierarchy.  Because they’ve given it the spiel of “high press, forward thinking….blah, blah”, when actually he’s not.  He is some of those, just not all…it’s created a false impression.

I wanted our next appointment (after Nige) to be non-divisive.  I was praying we wouldn’t get a character like Joey Barton (not him himself, because that wouldn’t happen), because that would instantly create divide.  I think Lampard would’ve done that too (whichever side of the fence you sit on) for different reasons.  In Manning they avoided that, if we think purely about Manning, the person.

But they created divide (to some extent) by 1) the way they sacked Nige and 2) the way they positioned what type of manager we were getting.

My recurring word on this wide-ranging subject matter is “unnecessary”.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I’d love to see some stats from @Davefevs along the lines of :

• Players making good runs unmarked but not found by passes
• Players idly running around not pulling defenders out of position
• Good runs with successful pass completions
• Good runs with successful pass completions and chances created with high xG

Good runs is a bit open for interpretation, I would say into the final third and into space, where defenders have not tracked or marked the runner.

Based on what I’ve seen, our levels of movement and passing are poor, at least when opposition defenders are set.

We’re much much better when we win the ball, opposition defenders aren’t set and we play with instinct and pace.

This is the conundrum that Manning needs to solve. And I don’t think he will - at least not here.

I’ll set up the crowdfunder!!!!

@Lrrr how much is Statsbomb 360 or SkillCorner?

Tens of thousands of pounds.

Dave - you’ll have to trust your eyes for now!

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’ll set up the crowdfunder!!!!

@Lrrr how much is Statsbomb 360 or SkillCorner?

Tens of thousands of pounds.

Dave - you’ll have to trust your eyes for now!

You’re in full on data scientist levels there, with the tens upon tens of thousands quids worth of data you then needs someone capable of creating voronoi polygons and evaluating special control then building models to evaluate it 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

So, it’s their organisation then, not that they have better players?  First of all it was our strikers, then it was our lack of a creative player!

Your reasons are like Trigger’s broom!

Always look after your broom and your broom will look after you. 

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

voronoi polygons

The ponytailed striker for Liverpool a few years back?

[FNQ]

1 hour ago, Tim Monaghan said:

This is exactly where I'm at, next season is probably one of the most crucial I can remember.  I never thought that we would be up there this season even though JL and GM alluded (more than alluded) to it after Pearsons sacking.  Basically they had to say that, however, that has heaped the pressure on for next season x100.  Of course, a lot of people were fuming at the way the sacking of Nigel was done, myself included. It was toxic wasn't it, but imagine how toxic it will become if we aren't challenging next year. I include myself into this. At the end of the day, I think Manning is the right fit for the club, and actually one of the most exciting managerial appointments for me since, well, Nigel, but he will have to deliver. If Liam doesn't deliver next season, well, I think JL and SL are in deep.........  You can't recover from that can you really, especially with the history they've got when it comes to managerial appointments and the league position that we were in when the NP sacking was made.

I really hope it doesn't get to that stage, and JL, BT and GM will be fully aware of the fans feeling around this.  As the post above states, there really isn't any excuses next season to be up there after what JL, GM and BT have said. None whatsoever. It really is do or die and this is the final straw with the fans I feel. 

We are certainly in for an interesting season, that's for sure. 

 

At half time versus QPR, surely a most exciting managerial appointment should have been able to affect the game more? We weren’t playing Real Madrid. At half time the rest of our entire season was on the line, not that in any way you would have thought so. And I’m not sure that next year will be any more interesting than this one, Burnley, Luton and Sheffield Utd will occupy the top three positions and progressive teams like Hull, Coventry and Sunderland will be in with a shout making up the top 6, we’ll continue to reduce our losses by selling Tommy and JL and BT will still be here spouting the same crap planning for the following season…

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, FNQ said:

At half time versus QPR, surely a most exciting managerial appointment should have been able to affect the game more? We weren’t playing Real Madrid. At half time the rest of our entire season was on the line, not that in any way you would have thought so. And I’m not sure that next year will be any more interesting than this one, Burnley, Luton and Sheffield Utd will occupy the top three positions and progressive teams like Hull, Coventry and Sunderland will be in with a shout making up the top 6, we’ll continue to reduce our losses by selling Tommy and JL and BT will still be here spouting the same crap planning for the following season…

I'm hopeful that we don't need to sell anyone we don't want to this summer.

The financial heavy lifting is done, the problem of course is in the case of Conway do we risk losing on a free? What would you do.

I agree with a lot of your post but I'm not so sure about those 3 coming down being as dominant, Leeds, Leicester and Southampton collectively by this division standards 3 real heavyweights.

However Leeds under Bielsa were the last non Parachute Payment to go up automatically all the way back in 2019-20. There is a systemic issue but we post May 2023 have not helped ourselves either.

[firstdivision]

2 hours ago, Tim Monaghan said:

This is exactly where I'm at, next season is probably one of the most crucial I can remember.  I never thought that we would be up there this season even though JL and GM alluded (more than alluded) to it after Pearsons sacking.  Basically they had to say that, however, that has heaped the pressure on for next season x100.  Of course, a lot of people were fuming at the way the sacking of Nigel was done, myself included. It was toxic wasn't it, but imagine how toxic it will become if we aren't challenging next year. I include myself into this. At the end of the day, I think Manning is the right fit for the club, and actually one of the most exciting managerial appointments for me since, well, Nigel, but he will have to deliver. If Liam doesn't deliver next season, well, I think JL and SL are in deep.........  You can't recover from that can you really, especially with the history they've got when it comes to managerial appointments and the league position that we were in when the NP sacking was made.

I really hope it doesn't get to that stage, and JL, BT and GM will be fully aware of the fans feeling around this.  As the post above states, there really isn't any excuses next season to be up there after what JL, GM and BT have said. None whatsoever. It really is do or die and this is the final straw with the fans I feel. 

We are certainly in for an interesting season, that's for sure. 

 

It really isn’t do or die, though, is it? We all hope next season is an improvement on this one, as this season has been a small improvement on the last one. Too many fans at too many clubs want to be angry or become angry about too much. We all hope for better but we’ll be better off if we leave the hyperbole aside. 
There will be another season after the next one and another season after that.