OSIB: post Derby episode

[petehinton]

Is out now. Me, Dave & Ellie discuss yesterday’s shambles, and our expectations for the season now that the window is shut. 
 

Available in all the usual places, links below x 

https://linktr.ee/osibpodcast

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just listening to it now..

Was throwing all the strikers on when chasing a game a particularly NP trait? Associate it more with Holden tbh. His earlier days maybe?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hamstring Performance Centre.

Very good.

[DaveInSA]

Thanks @petehinton and co for this - I enjoyed the “Groundhog Day” theme. It’s what Bristol City do best.

Now, I don’t think the window was strong? Big money spent on Twine and McNally - in the case of the former not yet proven at this level and the latter may turn out to be shrewd business. In my opinion we’ve bought potential, generally from lower leagues - which is inherently risky. My view on the window is - a gamble.

Armstrong - like you said in the pod could go either way - will he get 10 goals this year - I doubt it.

Fally - young technically good player. Can he deliver? I don’t know. Too early.

Bird - really from last year but new for this season - looks like the pick of the signings so far.

Stokes - sent on loan.

McGuane - not seen play yet

Yu - also been injured - too early to tell

Earthy - looks a player to me - brilliant feet, how do we get him in the team when he’s fit

This season is going to be frustrating. It will take time for these guys to gel and post Christmas we’ll have a better idea (I hope). 

[petehinton]

53 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

Thanks @petehinton and co for this - I enjoyed the “Groundhog Day” theme. It’s what Bristol City do best.

Now, I don’t think the window was strong? Big money spent on Twine and McNally - in the case of the former not yet proven at this level and the latter may turn out to be shrewd business. In my opinion we’ve bought potential, generally from lower leagues - which is inherently risky. My view on the window is - a gamble.

Armstrong - like you said in the pod could go either way - will he get 10 goals this year - I doubt it.

Fally - young technically good player. Can he deliver? I don’t know. Too early.

Bird - really from last year but new for this season - looks like the pick of the signings so far.

Stokes - sent on loan.

McGuane - not seen play yet

Yu - also been injured - too early to tell

Earthy - looks a player to me - brilliant feet, how do we get him in the team when he’s fit

This season is going to be frustrating. It will take time for these guys to gel and post Christmas we’ll have a better idea (I hope). 

It was strong, in the sense of we strengthened everywhere we could’ve possibly have ever needed to.
 

I think for the budget per player available, LM couldn’t possibly have asked or hoped for any more. 

[REDOXO]

Plan B is to do Plan A better. Thats it. Only Mr Manning wants to do it with the players he didn’t see fit to start and simply are not as strong. 

What is it that we look like we are playing with slippers on after ht!
 

Sykes is the current whipping boy I get that but he really wasn’t and isn’t the problem. As someone said we had 60% of the ball missed five chances before they scored and had as many if not more touch’s of the ball in the penalty area. Not sure how any of that adds up to Sykes!

Defensively we are weak in the tackle in midfield unless Williams is throwing himself around, Knight, Bird and Twine won’t. Which constantly puts our defense under pressure.
 

The one up front does not allow us to pressure the ball in the opposition half as much as our midfield is in general is powder puff in the tackle. We are ok on the ball but don’t score as our main striker can’t finish and we still don’t get enough goals from midfield  

Yes we are at an important break having had one win two draws and two defeats with our win coming after throwing a 2/0 lead away. 
 

Edit O’Leary kept us in it. He pulled off save after save and yet it seems that gets forgotten. However the well could he have done better and was he unsighted comments come up constantly!

IMO opinion O’Leary was easily our best player that he gets little credit for. The first goal the bloke gets it on the edge of the area and our defender (possibly Tanner can’t be arsed to go back and have a look) turns his back. More powderpuffery! 
 

I hope this lad from Burnley has something about him, as I can just see us being back to our usual soft ass status as a club! 
 

 

 

 

Edited September 1 by REDOXO

[And Its Smith]

18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just listening to it now..

Was throwing all the strikers on when chasing a game a particularly NP trait? Associate it more with Holden tbh. His earlier days maybe?

Yep Pearson 

[Colemanballs]

21 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Yep Pearson 

Really? Like Mr P, I associate that with Holden and not Pearson. Happy to be shown to be wrong though. Maybe you could provide some examples of games where Pearson had all the strikers on the pitch?

[And Its Smith]

51 minutes ago, Colemanballs said:

Really? Like Mr P, I associate that with Holden and not Pearson. Happy to be shown to be wrong though. Maybe you could provide some examples of games where Pearson had all the strikers on the pitch?

If I had the time (or will) then I would!  

[Colemanballs]

29 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

If I had the time (or will) then I would!  

Fair enough. But, then I shall go with my memory which tells me that you are talking nonsense.

[Jose]

I’m pretty sure under Pearson there were times when we had 4/5 strikers on the pitch which rarely worked. At least he tried something rather than like for like. 

[Roe]

Yeah it was definitely a Pearson thing that.

Holden wasn't in charge long enough to remember any patterns from other than all our players getting injured. Also weird that he didn't have any games with fans either

[reddogkev]

There's no doubt whatsoever this result has shocked us and caught us all offguard, but as we all know and have all said a million times before - anything can and usually does happen in this league.  

A crap result, terrible day at the office, but this happens.  Just make sure it doesn't happen again away to Blackburn and we can move on.

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, Colemanballs said:

Fair enough. But, then I shall go with my memory which tells me that you are talking nonsense.

Fine by me.  It couldn’t be more trivial.  Seems like some posters above agree with my nonsense though 

Edited September 2 by And Its Smith

[Mr Popodopolous]

I recall Holden doing it once or twice and it coming off.

However it became a bit of a recurring theme when we were losing. Was it really early NP days?

[petehinton]

On 02/09/2024 at 09:55, Mr Popodopolous said:

I recall Holden doing it once or twice and it coming off.

However it became a bit of a recurring theme when we were losing. Was it really early NP days?

Really early NP days was certainly putting new, academy, strikers in. There were a few games where we had a lot of forwards on when chasing a game, but not to the level of Holden iirc

[DaveInSA]

On 02/09/2024 at 09:17, reddogkev said:

There's no doubt whatsoever this result has shocked us and caught us all offguard, but as we all know and have all said a million times before - anything can and usually does happen in this league.  

A crap result, terrible day at the office, but this happens.  Just make sure it doesn't happen again away to Blackburn and we can move on.

The only shock for me is that it was a shock to the fans.

When you lose all the experience, nous and know-how we lost in this window (James, King, Weiman), it was always going to be a struggle. 

We replaced them with a load of hopeful punts from lower leagues and overseas. A recipe for either - radical implosion or slow improvement.

If we finish higher than 15th we’ll have done bloody well.

Of course, I could be wrong (and hope I am) but nothing in the first 4 games (small sample) suggests that we’re going to be top half.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I honestly thought we were all a bit bullish going to Derby. Not all but a lot of the discourse.

I get it on one level..pressure and expectation on after 11th plus strong additions, but this League, a tough Warne side albeit with strong chance creation 2nd half especially- you really need the first goal vs such sides, away from Home especially.

Perhaps not so much here but Social Media more widely.

My gut feeling wasn't as strong as many basically.

Edited September 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[One Team]

On 02/09/2024 at 09:15, Roe said:

Yeah it was definitely a Pearson thing that.

Holden wasn't in charge long enough to remember any patterns from other than all our players getting injured. Also weird that he didn't have any games with fans either

Indeed, which Holden is gutted about BTW. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 02/09/2024 at 07:41, Colemanballs said:

Really? Like Mr P, I associate that with Holden and not Pearson. Happy to be shown to be wrong though. Maybe you could provide some examples of games where Pearson had all the strikers on the pitch?

Agreed. 

I've just checked, under Holden it came off at Huddersfield and at Home to Swansea. I'd have to check other games but it doesn't sound NPesque in the main.

[W-S-M Seagull]

44 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

The only shock for me is that it was a shock to the fans.

When you lose all the experience, nous and know-how we lost in this window (James, King, Weiman), it was always going to be a struggle. 

We replaced them with a load of hopeful punts from lower leagues and overseas. A recipe for either - radical implosion or slow improvement.

If we finish higher than 15th we’ll have done bloody well.

Of course, I could be wrong (and hope I am) but nothing in the first 4 games (small sample) suggests that we’re going to be top half.

This was my concern going into the summer. 

I'd have kept James and King around tbh simply for the experience/leadership. 

[headhunter]

26 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This was my concern going into the summer. 

I'd have kept James and King around tbh simply for the experience/leadership. 

Self assured yet inexperienced managers don't seem to like knowledgeable, aging pros lurking around the place, i.e. LJ exited Wade Elliott PDQ and in 1993 Osman soon got rid of Shelton & Aizlewood once he was given full control.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, DaveInSA said:

The only shock for me is that it was a shock to the fans.

When you lose all the experience, nous and know-how we lost in this window (James, King, Weiman), it was always going to be a struggle. 

We replaced them with a load of hopeful punts from lower leagues and overseas. A recipe for either - radical implosion or slow improvement.

If we finish higher than 15th we’ll have done bloody well.

Of course, I could be wrong (and hope I am) but nothing in the first 4 games (small sample) suggests that we’re going to be top half.

Whichever side of the debate you sit, that isn’t true.

Bird has over 100 Championship games under his belt, Armstrong 60, McNally plenty too & McGuane is arguably more experienced than the guy he replaced.

I liked Andy King, but he realistically wasn’t going to make a contribution on the playing side, so he was never staying post Pearson.

4 games (3 of which you can argue the performance was ok) is remarkably early to be saying this, though “I don’t know yet” isn’t something people often post, is it?

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, DaveInSA said:

The only shock for me is that it was a shock to the fans.

When you lose all the experience, nous and know-how we lost in this window (James, King, Weiman), it was always going to be a struggle. 

We replaced them with a load of hopeful punts from lower leagues and overseas. A recipe for either - radical implosion or slow improvement.

If we finish higher than 15th we’ll have done bloody well.

Of course, I could be wrong (and hope I am) but nothing in the first 4 games (small sample) suggests that we’re going to be top half.

Although I might not fully disagree with your final analysis, having predicted lower mid table to finish (and note, predictions differ from what should be expected - which for me is higher) there are a couple of aspects here.

- What we lost in the summer with James, King and Weimann we chose to lose. And there is an argument the only one of those that was a significant on pitch loss in terms of minutes played was James. King was retiring and already on coaching staff - if we’d wanted to keep him and retain that nouse, we could have while still making the signings we did. James, as discussed in his thread, was seeking a two year deal and I believe we didn’t want to do that or offer the wages. And that’s fine as a club decision - but it’s still a club decision. Andi was becoming more peripheral even before he went to WBA so again, not really minutes lost there

- And that comes to point two - you don’t “lose” those players unless you think what you’ll bring in will push you on. I’ll say now that if we are 15th at the end of the season we will be further away from the playoffs than we have been points wise and position wise and will undoubtedly have regressed - having spent somewhere around £10m by most estimates. It won’t be the usual suspects calling for regime change at that point, it’ll be a large proportion. And jam tomorrow probably won’t cut it unless the football was excellent in that 15th place finish.

Subtotal for me is I don’t think the loss of experience on the pitch caused Saturday, or will even cause us to finish where you say. But there is a reasonable argument about loss of influence around the club - particularly when one could have been kept as a coach while still executing the summers business - and that one is a puzzle if the “leadership” isn’t fully there on what we have as it’s developing.

(And yes, I know there is every chance Andy King may have been a shit coach. But supposing he wasn’t - the loss of him from the back room when we are going to a more inexperienced setup and his noted influence on players we’ve seen is a bit of an oddity)

[Silvio Dante]

30 minutes ago, headhunter said:

Self assured yet inexperienced managers don't seem to like knowledgeable, aging pros lurking around the place, i.e. LJ exited Wade Elliott PDQ and in 1993 Osman soon got rid of Shelton & Aizlewood once he was given full control.

There’s an argument that technical directors who aren’t experienced have a similar point of view.

[mozo]

On 02/09/2024 at 09:55, Mr Popodopolous said:

I recall Holden doing it once or twice and it coming off.

However it became a bit of a recurring theme when we were losing. Was it really early NP days?

Nige, last season would start 433 with one striker, then chasing a game would put a 2nd striker on and keep the wide forwards (who he also replaced) high. So, the 3 would then be a new look 4.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, headhunter said:

Self assured yet inexperienced managers don't seem to like knowledgeable, aging pros lurking around the place, i.e. LJ exited Wade Elliott PDQ and in 1993 Osman soon got rid of Shelton & Aizlewood once he was given full control.

Compounded by the hierarchy thinking they know more than those experienced pros.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, mozo said:

Nige, last season would start 433 with one striker, then chasing a game would put a 2nd striker on and keep the wide forwards (who he also replaced) high. So, the 3 would then be a new look 4.

IMO, ish.

That to me isn't throwing all the strikers and the same goes for Holden. Throwing in all the strikers is 2 or 3 off the bench and hoping to a degree. Putting on one extra isn't quite the same for me, whoever the manager.

[DaveInSA]

54 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Although I might not fully disagree with your final analysis, having predicted lower mid table to finish (and note, predictions differ from what should be expected - which for me is higher) there are a couple of aspects here.

- What we lost in the summer with James, King and Weimann we chose to lose. And there is an argument the only one of those that was a significant on pitch loss in terms of minutes played was James. King was retiring and already on coaching staff - if we’d wanted to keep him and retain that nouse, we could have while still making the signings we did. James, as discussed in his thread, was seeking a two year deal and I believe we didn’t want to do that or offer the wages. And that’s fine as a club decision - but it’s still a club decision. Andi was becoming more peripheral even before he went to WBA so again, not really minutes lost there

- And that comes to point two - you don’t “lose” those players unless you think what you’ll bring in will push you on. I’ll say now that if we are 15th at the end of the season we will be further away from the playoffs than we have been points wise and position wise and will undoubtedly have regressed - having spent somewhere around £10m by most estimates. It won’t be the usual suspects calling for regime change at that point, it’ll be a large proportion. And jam tomorrow probably won’t cut it unless the football was excellent in that 15th place finish.

Subtotal for me is I don’t think the loss of experience on the pitch caused Saturday, or will even cause us to finish where you say. But there is a reasonable argument about loss of influence around the club - particularly when one could have been kept as a coach while still executing the summers business - and that one is a puzzle if the “leadership” isn’t fully there on what we have as it’s developing.

(And yes, I know there is every chance Andy King may have been a shit coach. But supposing he wasn’t - the loss of him from the back room when we are going to a more inexperienced setup and his noted influence on players we’ve seen is a bit of an oddity)

This I can sort of agree with. I think the point I’m trying to make is a bit more nuanced than just having experience (see below). There’s also the challenge of gelling the new players together into some sort of cohesive unit. At Derby and against Milwall the team has capitulated. We also need to be more clinical. 

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Whichever side of the debate you sit, that isn’t true.

Bird has over 100 Championship games under his belt, Armstrong 60, McNally plenty too & McGuane is arguably more experienced than the guy he replaced.

I liked Andy King, but he realistically wasn’t going to make a contribution on the playing side, so he was never staying post Pearson.

4 games (3 of which you can argue the performance was ok) is remarkably early to be saying this, though “I don’t know yet” isn’t something people often post, is it?

I get this, but there’s experience and then there is experience. By that I mean, playing 60 games and scoring 3 goals for a struggling QPR side (same for playing 100 games in a struggling Derby side), doesn’t really teach you what you need to know about winning, or closing out games, or perish the thought going for promotion.

>>>>>>>>

What I didn’t want to put in my original post is the obvious red flag of the head coach. He has all the tools at his disposal. Can he use them? Can he stop us conceding and get us scoring? 

I don’t think he can. I’ve long since made that judgement. Hence my negativity on my prediction. My expectation is 10th or better. I’m happy to be proved wrong. But history and experience tells me I won’t be.

(now watch as we have a second half of the season revival and storm to the play offs)

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

This I can sort of agree with. I think the point I’m trying to make is a bit more nuanced than just having experience (see below). There’s also the challenge of gelling the new players together into some sort of cohesive unit. At Derby and against Milwall the team has capitulated. We also need to be more clinical. 

 

This is one of the biggest oddities of the summer for me. Before the end of last season, Liam was quite vocal on how much time he needed on the grass and how pre season was absolutely planned to the nth degree. In that circumstance, you do your business early so the coach has the bodies in for the pre season and can get to work. 
 

And to a degree we did - Bird and Stokes were in the building day one having been sorted in January. Mayulu and Armstrong were in for the first friendly.

But then - post season starting - we added Twine, McNally, McGuane and Earthy. Yu is a bit of an exception because of the Olympics. And remember, this is in the light of having clearly identified we needed 3 players only.

So, we’re in a paradoxical position of the head coach having stated he meticulously plans pre season and needs time on the grass, bemoaning last season that the schedule meant he didn’t have it. But we’ve then got five players who for various reasons haven’t had that pre season or coaching time - despite the plans being clear from last season?!?

The two points don’t really align with cohesion in a team. And I’d observe that may just be part of the reason why Twine and Bird were in each others way on Saturday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Perhaps it is a 2 year plan, Idk anymore.

Put the overwhelming bulk in place this summer, in addition to the positives plus good players that we already had and coach, build..fine tune next summer for the true push in 2025-26.

Plus hopefully add some returning improved young loanees to the mix.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

This is one of the biggest oddities of the summer for me. Before the end of last season, Liam was quite vocal on how much time he needed on the grass and how pre season was absolutely planned to the nth degree. In that circumstance, you do your business early so the coach has the bodies in for the pre season and can get to work. 
 

And to a degree we did - Bird and Stokes were in the building day one having been sorted in January. Mayulu and Armstrong were in for the first friendly.

But then - post season starting - we added Twine, McNally, McGuane and Earthy. Yu is a bit of an exception because of the Olympics. And remember, this is in the light of having clearly identified we needed 3 players only.

So, we’re in a paradoxical position of the head coach having stated he meticulously plans pre season and needs time on the grass, bemoaning last season that the schedule meant he didn’t have it. But we’ve then got five players who for various reasons haven’t had that pre season or coaching time - despite the plans being clear from last season?!?

The two points don’t really align with cohesion in a team. And I’d observe that may just be part of the reason why Twine and Bird were in each others way on Saturday.

Players signed  

Timing of signings  

[Fjmcity]

I think it’s the natural reaction to going behind sometimes to throw on potentially game changing players, I do think it felt like sometimes there was a lack of control in the way Pearson did this and shape would go out of the window in the hunt to make this happen.

looking at the games where we were behind last year, some of the below supports this a little but difficult to see without seeing how the line up actually looked at game end. I do worry that manning only has plan A, which can work but im not sure (millwall aside) our players can galvanise to get back on top playing the same way with that plan A if all is not going well. While Pearson would be flexible into plan B I’m not sure it was a coherent one and I think that’s what a lot of people and myself remember

 

 

Edited September 3 by Fjmcity

[Mr Popodopolous]

In that first example, Weimann went off at 0-0 iirc hence the Williams change. Dunno whether it was the best idea but there was an injury I thought.

In the example v Ipswich, we had 8 players out injured and 2 more occured in-game. King and Roberts iirc.

Edited September 3 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just been thorough them all @Fjmcity

Weimann v Preston

Wells v Leeds

King and Roberts v Ipswich

Were all due to injury, so I'm unsure how this fits into your analysis.

[Fjmcity]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just been thorough them all @Fjmcity

Weimann v Preston

Wells v Leeds

King and Roberts v Ipswich

We’re all due to injury, so I'm unsure how this fits into your analysis.

Not really an analysis just looking at a small subset to see if it disproves/proves anything which it does not. Arbitrary point overall anyway, tried to bring a point along in the text though that while we were not trying to play the ‘modern’ football under Pearson that we seemingly are under manning I never thought Pearson had a particularly well thought out plan b.

probably overall comes back to the “seeming to do something” which can be look a little lacking under younger and supposedly more modern tactical managers (see also lack of shouting/hairdryer type treatments)

Edited September 3 by Fjmcity

[mozo]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

IMO, ish.

That to me isn't throwing all the strikers and the same goes for Holden. Throwing in all the strikers is 2 or 3 off the bench and hoping to a degree. Putting on one extra isn't quite the same for me, whoever the manager.

It also depends if you consider Cornick replacing Sykes or Weimann for Bell to be STR for AM or AM for AM

[Mr Popodopolous]

38 minutes ago, mozo said:

It also depends if you consider Cornick replacing Sykes or Weimann for Bell to be STR for AM or AM for AM

Wide forward and strikers, it's all pretty subjective. To me a striker is centralish often.

[Davefevs]

Not forgetting that some of the subs facilitated a switch from a back-4 to a back-3 and wingbacks (more attack minded than the conventual full-backs).

[One Team]

As good as it is that OSIB is back (and thanks @petehinton), I’ve found the latest episodes audio to be really quiet, this one being no exception. I listened to it back to back with the FBC one and it notably different.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[petehinton]

46 minutes ago, One Team said:

As good as it is that OSIB is back (and thanks @petehinton), I’ve found the latest episodes audio to be really quiet, this one being no exception. I listened to it back to back with the FBC one and it notably different.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Yeah had someone message about that as well, will turn up the db for the next eps and that should fix it. Think I’ve compressed the audio too much to make it as clear as poss or something. All good