VAR in the Championship

[DaveInSA]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/sep/29/swansea-bristol-city-championship?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 

From our head coach.

No thanks, not for me. Let’s let the Premier league get this right first (learning from Rugby would be a start).

 

[cidercity]

If VAR came into the championship, I will be watching local non league from that day on.

[SecretSam]

Heat of the moment comment, not like LM?? Anyway, VAR might have ruled out our soft pen vs Oxford, so...swings and roundabouts.

I don't object to technology - it works in other sports, and the goal-line technology is spot on - but it's all about implementation and incorporation into the flow of the game. 

[exAtyeoMax]

21 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/sep/29/swansea-bristol-city-championship?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
 

From our head coach.

No thanks, not for me. Let’s let the Premier league get this right first (learning from Rugby would be a start).

 

Yes it’s a definite no from me. 

[Dr Balls]

Having been to the ODI cricket yesterday, where the crowd gets to see what the 3rd umpire sees in real time, that’s how to do it. Smith looked plumb lbw but ball-tracker showed missing leg stump. We all could see it however much it seemed unlikely. Hiding away looking at a line drawn on a pitch for 3 minutes before making a dubious offside decision, while the crowd sees nothing, is not the way to do it.

[Super]

We may have got away with it yesterday but may not of got the pen against Oxford. 

I much prefer it now i always look at the ref then lino then you know whether it's a goal or not.

[Midred]

Would Naughton have got a second yellow, would we have got more penalties in past seasons?

[cidercity1987]

I don't think VAR would help us much, we would still come off worse in the subjective decisions.

I dont think its any coincidence that we got a soft one for us last week against a small club and a bad one yesterday against us at an ex Prem club. VAR won't change that

[Markthehorn]

52 minutes ago, Midred said:

Would Naughton have got a second yellow, would we have got more penalties in past seasons?

VAR wouldn’t rule on a second yellow though .

The main problem with VAR in that unlike other sports it’s used for so many subjective decisions and really we just end up with more officials giving their own version on an incident taking time out of the game and leading to inconsistency.

Then everyone else piling in after wards including ex refs .

It’s not very often a decision is fully accepted or agreed is right .

And as VAR isn’t used for everything people question what would have happened there .

Think the thought was VAR would be almost perfect and consistent each week creating no debate but obviously the very opposite !

Edited Monday at 08:30 by Markthehorn

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Having been to the ODI cricket yesterday, where the crowd gets to see what the 3rd umpire sees in real time, that’s how to do it. Smith looked plumb lbw but ball-tracker showed missing leg stump. We all could see it however much it seemed unlikely. Hiding away looking at a line drawn on a pitch for 3 minutes before making a dubious offside decision, while the crowd sees nothing, is not the way to do it.

This. Cricket has it absolutely spot on. You can’t immediately lift and drop to football as cricket has both the mechanism of teams seeking to review and natural breaks, but you can take learnings. I watched the Real-Atleti game last night and the Atleti goal, originally disallowed, had the right decision made in quick time.

40 minutes ago, Midred said:

Would Naughton have got a second yellow, would we have got more penalties in past seasons?

Second part is subjective but first part is no. By the nature of a Yellow it’s not a “serious” offence - if VAR thought it worthy of a red they would intervene but reviewing every potential yellow would make the game 4 hours long!

——

The thing on yesterday is this. The ref saw the incident clearly. A lot of comments on here were that Max could and should have been stronger so clearly everyone is not convinced. My view is that it was a foul but it seems to be, as opposed to clear and obvious, a “referees call” so I’m not convinced we’d have it given to us even if there was VAR.

The other thing is that with the extent a certain member of our team seems to dive with minimal/no contact (Yes Scott, I’m looking at you), we could quite easily be the losers with real time decisions overturned if VAR was in place!

[Markthehorn]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Having been to the ODI cricket yesterday, where the crowd gets to see what the 3rd umpire sees in real time, that’s how to do it. Smith looked plumb lbw but ball-tracker showed missing leg stump. We all could see it however much it seemed unlikely. Hiding away looking at a line drawn on a pitch for 3 minutes before making a dubious offside decision, while the crowd sees nothing, is not the way to do it.

For some reason the powers that be including the clubs themselves don’t want the live audio heard to help fans understand why a decision has been made .

They were supposed to bring in semi automated offsides but that seems to have been delayed ..

[mozo]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

This. Cricket has it absolutely spot on. You can’t immediately lift and drop to football as cricket has both the mechanism of teams seeking to review and natural breaks, but you can take learnings. I watched the Real-Atleti game last night and the Atleti goal, originally disallowed, had the right decision made in quick time.

Second part is subjective but first part is no. By the nature of a Yellow it’s not a “serious” offence - if VAR thought it worthy of a red they would intervene but reviewing every potential yellow would make the game 4 hours long!

——

The thing on yesterday is this. The ref saw the incident clearly. A lot of comments on here were that Max could and should have been stronger so clearly everyone is not convinced. My view is that it was a foul but it seems to be, as opposed to clear and obvious, a “referees call” so I’m not convinced we’d have it given to us even if there was VAR.

The other thing is that with the extent a certain member of our team seems to dive with minimal/no contact (Yes Scott, I’m looking at you), we could quite easily be the losers with real time decisions overturned if VAR was in place!

I would definitely take a cricket approach and allow limited referrals.

That way, only the most obvious and contentious incidents will be reviewed. Two per team, captain and head coach can nominate. Job done.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

I would definitely take a cricket approach and allow limited referrals.

That way, only the most obvious and contentious incidents will be reviewed. Two per team, captain and head coach can nominate. Job done.

The issue is how you do it though. For me, you can only have a certain amount of time to make a review (and let’s say APP isn’t relevant here because that won’t be able to be tracked by the players on the pitch). Cricket you have a 15 seconds DRS. 15 seconds in football to make a call is a lot less - the games going on, you can’t consult etc and the captain/coach may not have any line of sight to determine the appropriateness of the review. Say there’s a penalty shout at the Atyeo and Knights on the halfway line for example.

I don’t disagree with the sentiment of what you’re saying. But I’m not sure in practice because of the relative game speed and lack of natural breaks you can apply it. 
 

And what the heck is the equivalent to “umpires call” in football?

[Markthehorn]

21 minutes ago, mozo said:

I would definitely take a cricket approach and allow limited referrals.

That way, only the most obvious and contentious incidents will be reviewed. Two per team, captain and head coach can nominate. Job done.

Trouble is every manager , player and fan think almost any decision is wrong in the heat of the moment .

To them everything is contentious and obviously incorrect if it goes against them .

And would that stop the subjective decisions made?

Still be down to the officials view point - presume the VAR and on field ref would go through the same process and be down to their view point .

Would Man U feel any better for example if they had asked the ref to review the Fernandes card but not got the decision over turned ?

And people will still be debating it .

Edited Monday at 08:52 by Markthehorn

[bearded_red]

Of course Liam Manning wants VAR, exactly the sort of bloke who likes VAR.

[trickytimes]

1 hour ago, Super said:

We may have got away with it yesterday but may not of got the pen against Oxford. 

I much prefer it now i always look at the ref then lino then you know whether it's a goal or not.

As the penalty was given by the referee on the pitch, then I doubt that var would have changed that decision.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

Having been to the ODI cricket yesterday, where the crowd gets to see what the 3rd umpire sees in real time, that’s how to do it. Smith looked plumb lbw but ball-tracker showed missing leg stump. We all could see it however much it seemed unlikely. Hiding away looking at a line drawn on a pitch for 3 minutes before making a dubious offside decision, while the crowd sees nothing, is not the way to do it.

At the Euros we actually got to see the decision on the screen, not the decision making process, but they showed the replay and the lines so we could see why it was offside - think it was the third group game? Foden pass

33 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

This. Cricket has it absolutely spot on. You can’t immediately lift and drop to football as cricket has both the mechanism of teams seeking to review and natural breaks, but you can take learnings. I watched the Real-Atleti game last night and the Atleti goal, originally disallowed, had the right decision made in quick time.

Second part is subjective but first part is no. By the nature of a Yellow it’s not a “serious” offence - if VAR thought it worthy of a red they would intervene but reviewing every potential yellow would make the game 4 hours long!

——

The thing on yesterday is this. The ref saw the incident clearly. A lot of comments on here were that Max could and should have been stronger so clearly everyone is not convinced. My view is that it was a foul but it seems to be, as opposed to clear and obvious, a “referees call” so I’m not convinced we’d have it given to us even if there was VAR.

The other thing is that with the extent a certain member of our team seems to dive with minimal/no contact (Yes Scott, I’m looking at you), we could quite easily be the losers with real time decisions overturned if VAR was in place!

I think VAR would have given offside, from the angle I can see it looked offside and he's definitely interferring with Max. Who is a regular diver in our team?

[mozo]

53 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The issue is how you do it though. For me, you can only have a certain amount of time to make a review (and let’s say APP isn’t relevant here because that won’t be able to be tracked by the players on the pitch). Cricket you have a 15 seconds DRS. 15 seconds in football to make a call is a lot less - the games going on, you can’t consult etc and the captain/coach may not have any line of sight to determine the appropriateness of the review. Say there’s a penalty shout at the Atyeo and Knights on the halfway line for example.

I don’t disagree with the sentiment of what you’re saying. But I’m not sure in practice because of the relative game speed and lack of natural breaks you can apply it. 
 

And what the heck is the equivalent to “umpires call” in football?

The pressure to review with the pace of the game potentially adds to the excitement. 

Umpire's call wouldn't change from the current VAR scenario. The official upstairs and potentially ref on the monitor makes the final call.

44 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Trouble is every manager , player and fan think almost any decision is wrong in the heat of the moment .

To them everything is contentious and obviously incorrect if it goes against them .

And would that stop the subjective decisions made?

Still be down to the officials view point - presume the VAR and on field ref would go through the same process and be down to their view point .

Would Man U feel any better for example if they had asked the ref to review the Fernandes card but not got the decision over turned ?

And people will still be debating it .

You're right, but that why I like this idea. It accepts that there will be incorrect decisions in a game, that's life. But at least you get a chance to over turn a couple of them. Cricket still has incorrect decisions, but if the side has used all their reviews it's too bad.

[Markthehorn]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

The pressure to review with the pace of the game potentially adds to the excitement. 

Umpire's call wouldn't change from the current VAR scenario. The official upstairs and potentially ref on the monitor makes the final call.

You're right, but that why I like this idea. It accepts that there will be incorrect decisions in a game, that's life. But at least you get a chance to over turn a couple of them. Cricket still has incorrect decisions, but if the side has used all their reviews it's too bad.

Yes be up to them I guess and you might get more honest behaviour with teams really having to think if they have been hard done by.

Unfortunately we are in an era where every decision is looked at and debated .

Not sure refs are even helped by VAR at times - do they get called over and have the feeling they must be wrong so have to change their minds ?

 

 

[ooRya]

No.

Just......No.

[Redandproud]

4 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Yes it’s a definite no from me. 

Sorry you're wrong ie, Swansea goal yesterday would have been dis-allowed by VAR,, 

[Leveller]

VAR is good for offside (an objective rule like the cricket parallels) but let’s face it, people in football can never agree on “what is a foul?” or “what is handball?” even with the benefit of slow motion replays. VAR is not the issue here, it’s the subjectivity regarding most offences.

For example “blocking” at set pieces. Years ago, I would have said definitely that is obstruction and an offence. You couldn’t block someone if you weren’t capable of playing the ball yourself. Even now, body checks are treated as fouls (same situation, different context). Yet most pundits and coaches now treat these obstructions as clever defending at set pieces and praise the set piece coaches for creating or preventing goals by using them.

Is obstruction still an offence under the rules? I don’t follow the minutiae of the rule changes closely.

[Markthehorn]

Just now, Leveller said:

VAR is good for offside (an objective rule like the cricket parallels) but let’s face it, people in football can never agree on “what is a foul?” or “what is handball?” even with the benefit of slow motion replays. VAR is not the issue here, it’s the subjectivity regarding most offences.

For example “blocking” at set pieces. Years ago, I would have said definitely that is obstruction and an offence. You couldn’t block someone if you weren’t capable of playing the ball yourself. Even now, body checks are treated as fouls (same situation, different context). Yet most pundits and coaches now treat these obstructions as clever defending at set pieces and praise the set piece coaches for creating or preventing goals by using them.

Is obstruction still an offence under the rules? I don’t follow the minutiae of the rule changes closely.

Exactly my point .

It’s too subjective and you cannot get consistency.

[OJ009]

For me VAR is a good idea but implemented poorly.
I always imagined something of a mix of TMO and DRS.

The ref makes decisions but if he wants to check something before he makes a decsion he had ask for help from VAR and check replays and then make a decision after that.

The teams could also have a number of reviews for when they believe a decision is incorrect.

It works in other sports like this and should be able to work in football. But they persevere with a system that doesn't work.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Redandproud said:

Sorry you're wrong ie, Swansea goal yesterday would have been dis-allowed by VAR,, 

It didn’t disallow Burnley v Luton last season, when Adebayo impeded Trafford!  I wouldn’t be so sure.

[W-S-M Seagull]

I don't think VAR would have ruled it out. It would need to be a clear and obvious error from the referee such as he didn't see it. 

If it was us that scored that goal then we'd be saying perfectly fine goal, goalkeeper was too weak. 

Also didn't they have a shout for handball for a penalty? I've not seen it back but var maybe gives it. 

Edited Monday at 12:42 by W-S-M Seagull

[Floatn Over]

I lean to “No” but regard its introduction as inevitable sooner or later, given the financial basis of the Championship.  It’s all very well saying incorrect or contentious decisions even themselves out over a season but such a decision in the run up to, or within, the playoffs / automatics qualification period may be critical and have such a major financial impact upon club concerned.

[LondonBristolian]

I think I'd rather football got VAR right before expanding it further.

I do think, in general, it is (or could be) a good idea. But I do also think it is currently very poorly implemented which leads to the bad reputationt that it gets.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

I don`t ever want to see it but as @Floatn Oversays above it`s inevitable sadly.

[Harry]

I said a while ago that there is a conspiracy to get VAR into the championship. 
The standard of referring has declined so much at this level in the last 2 years that Keith Stroud is now seen as one of the better ones!!! 
And that’s not by accident. 
They are purposely making crap decisions so that people call for VAR to be implemented and they can say “well, it’s what you all wanted”. 
 

The standard can’t have declined so much in just a couple of years without this being intentional. 

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

On 30/09/2024 at 07:50, SecretSam said:

Heat of the moment comment, not like LM?? Anyway, VAR might have ruled out our soft pen vs Oxford, so...swings and roundabouts.

I don't object to technology - it works in other sports, and the goal-line technology is spot on - but it's all about implementation and incorporation into the flow of the game. 

?

That was a clear pen. No contact on the ball whatsoever and takes Robert's ankle as he tries to come back inside.

[Laner]

If LM wants VAR, get our squad playing better and it'll come with promotion.