ZiderMeUp Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 4 hours ago, Davefevs said: I really enjoyed our opening half hour today. Took it to Leeds, felt a bit like Leicester (h) last Easter. We were bright, sharp, might’ve lacked the final ball, but endeavour was there. Then…McCrorie does his hamstring. Reshuffle…Sykes who never plays well on left side, nor is as effective as a wingback, goes to LWB. Tanner to RWB, who we know is better as a defending full-back. Leeds have some good chances in rest of half and are on top at h-t. Second half we get pinned back, especially Sykes, who ends up offering absolutely nothing and pretty much LB. It becomes more of a 541 with the subs, and we leave Armstrong isolated. Even when we bring Mayulu on, we don’t play him with Armstrong, we play him RW / RF. The only reason they got close to each other was because we had a plethora of throw-ins down our right and we filled that side of the pitch. Don’t get me wrong, delighted with the point / result, but second half performance was like “whispering death”. But to spin the positive, we defended with good structure, and Leeds kept at bay. Thoughts? McCrorie going off def caused us to become unsettled but still had some moments after. I thought the early double sub second half killed us. Can understand MCguane not ready for longer, but forced bird back (who is excellent higher up the pitch) and taking wells off. Wells was dropping onto rothwell and stopped him playing for large parts of first 60mins. Armstrong and earthy are both poor out of possession. Wells is a clever player and we got considerably worse when he went off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 33 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: Yep , pretty much what I watched. Thought Knight was stand out, Tanner excellent but McCrorie's injury really stuffed us. I was surprised when we brought Fally on , but he ended up mostly an observer . Armstrong had a couple of good moments but we never managed to cause them a problem. Wells showed why he's starting and I'm becoming a big fan of Max Bird. I thought we did ok , and while the Ref was good so were we. Then he seemed to notice they were famous and gave them the benefit of a few calls , ok overall TBF. Leeds are a good team and we limited them to very little, that is a positive . We need to cause teams more problems IMO. McGuane could be a real asset in the future too. To be fair to Armstrong (who I slaughtered in midweek) when he did try & “cause them a problem” by going on a storming run, their RB hacked him down. He did fine today after a real shocker at Stoke. Something isn’t right with Fally though, everyone takes a bad touch but his body language was poor & he looked like he didn’t want to be there. Even at his worst in midweek Armstrong was still putting the effort in (mainly in running offside). 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 minute ago, GrahamC said: To be fair to Armstrong (who I slaughtered in midweek) when he did try & “cause them a problem” by going on a storming run, their RB hacked him down. He did fine today after a real shocker at Stoke. Something isn’t right with Fally though, everyone takes a bad touch but his body language was poor & he looked like he didn’t want to be there. Even at his worst in midweek Armstrong was still putting the effort in (mainly in running offside). Agree . Even allowing for disappointment at lack of minutes , you would expect effort. He seemed to stand and wait. I liked Armstrong today, very much trying to get things going. That run was exactly the sort of thing we needed as we were never passing through them today. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobBobbin Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 2 hours ago, mozo said: The McCrorie injury was definitely a turning point. That's a classic case of how luck has such an impact, as I was saying on another thread. I'm not sure what we could have done replace him? If we put Morrison on and James and Gnonto terrorise him, it's really not helpful. Our only other left footer is Naismith and we used him well. What other options are there? Having said that, I think we repelled Leeds really well. the option is to trust the kid to play rather than paying lip-service to the academy. He's an England U18 international, not Joseph James! I'm not too concerned about it today, the true test comes against Preston. We can't play Sykes LB/LWB (where he's pretty rubbish) over the most qualified academy player. That would be absurd. Elijah showed once again that given the opportunity he will work his balls off for the team and will "swim" rather than "sink". 7 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello Dave Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 5 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said: Thought Marcus McGuane played well Did you? I thought he had a bit of steel about him, but it was the wrong game to put him in( albeit we didn’t have many options). I thought the game was too fast for him and got caught on the ball numerous times. He had to come off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannerman Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 4 minutes ago, Hello Dave said: Did you? I thought he had a bit of steel about him, but it was the wrong game to put him in( albeit we didn’t have many options). I thought the game was too fast for him and got caught on the ball numerous times. He had to come off! Rather harsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello Dave Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 2 minutes ago, Bannerman said: Rather harsh All about opinions mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannerman Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 hour ago, Hello Dave said: All about opinions mate! Of course, like wise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumneyRed Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 Good teams have to adapt to injuries. We done OK against a very decent Championship side 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 9 hours ago, Davefevs said: I really enjoyed our opening half hour today. Took it to Leeds, felt a bit like Leicester (h) last Easter. We were bright, sharp, might’ve lacked the final ball, but endeavour was there. Then…McCrorie does his hamstring. Reshuffle…Sykes who never plays well on left side, nor is as effective as a wingback, goes to LWB. Tanner to RWB, who we know is better as a defending full-back. Leeds have some good chances in rest of half and are on top at h-t. Second half we get pinned back, especially Sykes, who ends up offering absolutely nothing and pretty much LB. It becomes more of a 541 with the subs, and we leave Armstrong isolated. Even when we bring Mayulu on, we don’t play him with Armstrong, we play him RW / RF. The only reason they got close to each other was because we had a plethora of throw-ins down our right and we filled that side of the pitch. Don’t get me wrong, delighted with the point / result, but second half performance was like “whispering death”. But to spin the positive, we defended with good structure, and Leeds kept at bay. Thoughts? McCrorie carries the ball forward, Naismith doesn't. We had no choice but to bring Kal on, but it robbed us of a significant amount of momentum. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 12 hours ago, The turtle said: Some of it, does kind of date back to recruitment in the summer. Things are not quite as appeared. (It's not a criticism) Armstrong and Fally (we haven't seen much of Fally TBF)- lots of potential, but here and now? The fact wells is still the man say they don't make us better! And then there's the midfield - stand alone all good players, however... Bird! Where exactly was he bought for! I mean he appeared to be bought to play in the middle , but he quite clearly can't do it. Not strong enough. His best role is number 10- where we also have earthy and twine! And knight (see below) We have knight - who you want as your , general major, you don't want him to be your best player. But he leads and others follow. He shouldn't really be the 10, but it's not like playing further back suits him in this team either. So Lots of CBS with choices to be made Lots of NUMBER 10s with choices to be made If you have mcguine, and Williams as your midfield .. That's 1 of; twine, bird , earthy , Knight.... Of these knight can drop back, but the common theme is it leaves the team open and others play through us. It's just not clear what the best team is and how. I'm not sure anyone really knows yet I think you make some good observations. In terms of midfield position, McGaune is possibly the most sensible signing, and maybe would be the best option alongside Knight or Williams. Having said that, I don't know how good he is on the basis of one encouraging debut. 10 hours ago, BobBobBobbin said: the option is to trust the kid to play rather than paying lip-service to the academy. He's an England U18 international, not Joseph James! I'm not too concerned about it today, the true test comes against Preston. We can't play Sykes LB/LWB (where he's pretty rubbish) over the most qualified academy player. That would be absurd. Elijah showed once again that given the opportunity he will work his balls off for the team and will "swim" rather than "sink". I don't necessarily disagree, but we all remember Towler v Watford too. Imagine Morrison had picked up that yellow early in the first half... He should probably start at Preston though and let's see how good he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobBobbin Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 2 hours ago, mozo said: I don't necessarily disagree, but we all remember Towler v Watford too. Imagine Morrison had picked up that yellow early in the first half... He should probably start at Preston though and let's see how good he is. But the Towler Howler (Couldn't resist) wasn't actually a bad thing. Youth Development/Transition to Men's football is a series of set-backs and moments where people either take an opportunity or don't. Towler's performances for us showed what he was, an honest league one player with a personality that *could* see him have a good career in the second tier if the stars aligned. But being scared to play them because they "might" have a bad game is more counter-productive than trusting them to make their mistakes and grow. Before He who must not be named came in there weren't many who thought Antoine was going to be successful, More than coaching it was the trust given to him that allowed him to develop. Same can be said for Tommy and Sam Bell. There's a perfectly plausible alternative timeline where Conway is on loan at Crewe and Bell has been released and is plying his trade for WSM or Bath. I'd rather lose a couple extra games in a season and finish 15th rather than 11th and see our own talented youngsters come into the side. Elijah has the profile (England u18, Pace, Left foot, Aggression, Positional versatility) to be a very, very valuable asset. Best way to realise that potential fee/player for our team is to play him and play him often. 7 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexhill reds Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 16 hours ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said: As I've said before, he is a 100% instinct player. The incident where he and Armstrong left the ball for each other (twice) was right in front of me. If you watch it back, the first time, Armstrong was favourite to win the ball and Fally was already making a run for the pass, he put his hands to his head in frustration that his fellow striker didn't see it I agree that they need to work on their game together but that goes for the rest of the team as well It's screaming out to me that if you put Fally in a team that will play quick 1-2's, you got a 20-25 goal a season striker He'll get that in a good team, we just need to work out how to feed him .. This was my point during the Stoke game we had Bird and Earthy playing all sorts of quick passes and Armstrong just blundering about, that should have been Fally coming on who would thrive with that sort of ball. Armstrong has been sussed out now, put a decent quick-ish physical defender up against him and that's it he's pretty much ineffective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 27 Share Posted October 27 1 hour ago, BobBobBobbin said: But the Towler Howler (Couldn't resist) wasn't actually a bad thing. Youth Development/Transition to Men's football is a series of set-backs and moments where people either take an opportunity or don't. Towler's performances for us showed what he was, an honest league one player with a personality that *could* see him have a good career in the second tier if the stars aligned. But being scared to play them because they "might" have a bad game is more counter-productive than trusting them to make their mistakes and grow. Before He who must not be named came in there weren't many who thought Antoine was going to be successful, More than coaching it was the trust given to him that allowed him to develop. Same can be said for Tommy and Sam Bell. There's a perfectly plausible alternative timeline where Conway is on loan at Crewe and Bell has been released and is plying his trade for WSM or Bath. I'd rather lose a couple extra games in a season and finish 15th rather than 11th and see our own talented youngsters come into the side. Elijah has the profile (England u18, Pace, Left foot, Aggression, Positional versatility) to be a very, very valuable asset. Best way to realise that potential fee/player for our team is to play him and play him often. Yeah good points. A couple of things... Presumably the reason we haven't played Morrison because we didn't think he was ready based on what they've seen in training etc. It's easy for us to speculate without really knowing Secondly, I agree that losing a couple of games for the greater good is fine. But I don't thing Manning can afford to take any risks. He's already been booed 2/3 times and had reports out there that he's on a warning, so to speak. And we've only lost 2 of 12 games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 27 Author Share Posted October 27 2 hours ago, mozo said: Presumably the reason we haven't played Morrison because we didn't think he was ready based on what they've seen in training etc. It's easy for us to speculate without really knowing If you truly have a pathway, you find a way to find out. Sometimes they sink, sometimes they swim. The key to dealing with a sinker is to not over expose them, ie whip them out quickly. Who thought OTC was ready? You find their real level quickly that way, and / or find out their development needs. What better place to learn imho.…and we’ve been told the likes of Morrison, Nelson, Murphy, Anderson, SPH, JKL are ready at various points. And the likes of OTC, Backwell, Thomas, James have already experienced first team “membership” too, in the past. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solent Robin Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 People can't have it both ways. If you need greater depth of experience which we did, that inevitably means there is less of a pathway for the academy youngsters. Ideally, there should still be opportunities which have now arisen for Morrison. It is also highlighted that U-21 players from last year have not progressed and U-18's were the group with the potential. Unless there is an Alex Scott amongst them, they are unlikely to be ready just yet. Whilst Tinnion may have talked them up, in reality I believe only a couple of the players mentioned by Fevs are likely to make the grade at championship level at best. I don't believe the pathway is closed but it is more limited than it was for the reasons given. We are now unlikely to be in the position where we have to fill the team with academy players ala Cardiff. Thank goodness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecknical Director Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 On 26/10/2024 at 16:03, petehinton said: JL & Tinns will sort us out. Fear not. They’ve helped build a team that’s just gone 7 unbeaten, so… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Tecknical Director said: They’ve helped build a team that’s just gone 7 unbeaten, so… Clowns. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecknical Director Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: Clowns. Well, 7 unbeaten in this league would say otherwise IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 58 minutes ago, Tecknical Director said: Well, 7 unbeaten in this league would say otherwise IMO. Thank you Brian. Would you like a ‘ whoosh ‘ ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 On 26/10/2024 at 19:25, ZiderMeUp said: I thought the early double sub second half killed us. Can understand MCguane not ready for longer, but forced bird back (who is excellent higher up the pitch) and taking wells off. Wells was dropping onto rothwell and stopped him playing for large parts of first 60mins. Armstrong and earthy are both poor out of possession. Wells is a clever player and we got considerably worse when he went off. I thought Bird naturally played deep, and the more advanced role is less familiar to him? I thought Armstrong did well, he offers a different threat to Wells; the killer was that he and Mayulu just weren't on the same page. Earthy...needs to be playing for a better team. I wonder if someone like Leeds, where they control the game more, would suit him better. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if West Ham didn't recall him in January. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Tecknical Director said: Well, 7 unbeaten in this league would say otherwise IMO. So you’re happy with the recruitment are you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecknical Director Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Major Isewater said: Thank you Brian. Would you like a ‘ whoosh ‘ ? Oh, sorry, please do, misread they why it was meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shauntaylor85 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Major Isewater said: Thank you Brian. Would you like a ‘ whoosh ‘ ? 7 unbeaten is nonsense! Draw specialists, you could be unbeaten by drawing for a season and get 46 points which would relegate you. The football we are serving up on the whole is dire. Stoke away as I said was the exception, yet we changed the way we played to stop Leeds getting a win. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 9 hours ago, Solent Robin said: People can't have it both ways. If you need greater depth of experience which we did, that inevitably means there is less of a pathway for the academy youngsters. Ideally, there should still be opportunities which have now arisen for Morrison. It is also highlighted that U-21 players from last year have not progressed and U-18's were the group with the potential. Unless there is an Alex Scott amongst them, they are unlikely to be ready just yet. Whilst Tinnion may have talked them up, in reality I believe only a couple of the players mentioned by Fevs are likely to make the grade at championship level at best. I don't believe the pathway is closed but it is more limited than it was for the reasons given. We are now unlikely to be in the position where we have to fill the team with academy players ala Cardiff. Thank goodness! Did we need greater depth of experience ? Imo no we had plenty of experience in both age and championship appearances. Why do you think last seasons u21' s haven't featured in the first 11 for the past 12 months. If you don't play them how will you ever find out if they're good enough ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 One comment that doesn’t seem to have appeared on this thread (apologies if it has and I’ve missed it) is just how good Leeds were particularly out of possession. They very effectively restricted City to having no shots on target all game. They also had two very acceptable chances with Max making a good save and Vyner clearing off the line. There are also plenty of posts saying what City didn’t do and that such and such a player was ineffective but the reality is that Leeds did an excellent job on us and were unfortunate on two or three occasions not to bag all three points. Me, and I’m sure many of us are happy enough with a point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 (edited) These two posts illustrate the difficulty that we have with the pathway. 52 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said: 7 unbeaten is nonsense! Draw specialists, you could be unbeaten by drawing for a season and get 46 points which would relegate you. The football we are serving up on the whole is dire. Stoke away as I said was the exception, yet we changed the way we played to stop Leeds getting a win. On the one hand we're not happy to be a solid mid table side, and if we can't push on to top 6, then the project is failing... 47 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said: Did we need greater depth of experience ? Imo no we had plenty of experience in both age and championship appearances. Why do you think last seasons u21' s haven't featured in the first 11 for the past 12 months. If you don't play them how will you ever find out if they're good enough ? But on the other hand, we want a pathway for young players like Morrison and SPH etc. Are these two objectives compatible? And how patient are we willing to be with U21s? Because you won't find out in one game, whether they are good enough. Sam Bell, one of our brightest academy graduates, still after two seasons with the first team hasn't convinced us that he's good enough. It's tricky. Edited October 28 by mozo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 16 minutes ago, mozo said: These two posts illustrate the difficulty that we have with the pathway. On the one hand we're not happy to be a solid mid table side, and if we can't push on to top 6, then the project is failing... But on the other hand, we want a pathway for young players like Morrison and SPH etc. Are these two objectives compatible? And how patient are we willing to be with U21s? Because you won't find out in one game, whether they are good enough. Sam Bell, one of our brightest academy graduates, still after two seasons with the first team hasn't convinced us that he's good enough. It's tricky. They really don’t. In simple terms, people have shown historically that they will be patient when a pathway exists and will take a mid table side under financial constraints while playing young players. The closure of that pathway, while still not moving forward in positional terms/entertainment is what is grinding people’s gears. It’s not “tricky”. Either invest and have a go at it for top six - then people will be “ok” the pathway is broken. Or accept you’re building and develop the academy. Or choose purgatory. 5 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 9 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: They really don’t. In simple terms, people have shown historically that they will be patient when a pathway exists and will take a mid table side under financial constraints while playing young players. The closure of that pathway, while still not moving forward in positional terms/entertainment is what is grinding people’s gears. It’s not “tricky”. Either invest and have a go at it for top six - then people will be “ok” the pathway is broken. Or accept you’re building and develop the academy. Or choose purgatory. Are you speaking for yourself, or for the fanbase? I'm not convinced that your patience (would be the same for me), would be shared by the average Ashton Gate crowd, and certainly not on this forum, where players are routinely written off after a few bad performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 7 minutes ago, mozo said: Are you speaking for yourself, or for the fanbase? I'm not convinced that your patience (would be the same for me), would be shared by the average Ashton Gate crowd, and certainly not on this forum, where players are routinely written off after a few bad performances. I’m not fool enough to think I can speak for the fanbase, but it would be remiss of me not to state we’ve just been through the exact situation I described of playing young players in the last few seasons and the fanbase reacted by and large exactly as described. The problem isn’t the fanbase reaction. But I’ll say that fans will naturally have more patience with SPH coming through than Sinclair Armstrong signed for £2m and probably understandably so. The issue is the hierarchy have by words and deeds stated that they will use a pathway and mount a top six challenge. Thats the bit that’s incompatible- their words vs reality, not the fans wanting to progress vs a pathway. 3 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecknical Director Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 3 hours ago, steviestevieneville said: So you’re happy with the recruitment are you ? Yes. It’s not perfect, but we aren’t fishing in that pool, are we. Generally our recruitment has been sound for a few years, hence why we are 11th and 3 / 4 points off of the playoffs and 7 games unbeaten. Maybe I’m a glass half full kinda guy, or maybe I don’t let it bother me as much as others, but I’m happy with the team and the football being played. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 18 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: I’m not fool enough to think I can speak for the fanbase, but it would be remiss of me not to state we’ve just been through the exact situation I described of playing young players in the last few seasons and the fanbase reacted by and large exactly as described. The problem isn’t the fanbase reaction. But I’ll say that fans will naturally have more patience with SPH coming through than Sinclair Armstrong signed for £2m and probably understandably so. The issue is the hierarchy have by words and deeds stated that they will use a pathway and mount a top six challenge. Thats the bit that’s incompatible- their words vs reality, not the fans wanting to progress vs a pathway. I thought it was brilliant that in one game we had 7 either local or developed players in our line up, with about 4 Bristolians, and I'd love to see that again. Let's not forget though that with Semenyo, Vyner and Pring the pathway included time out at other clubs, which is what is happening now. So does that count as pathway? Since that batch, it's only really Bell and Conway that were able to make the grade. You could add Scott, although that was different. It's also worth noting that when those players came through we finished 17th, lost nearly half our games and expectations were lower than they had been for a long time. Was there much value in the brief cameos of Taylor-Clarke, Idehen. Britton, Janneh, Morton, Yeboah and Towler? So, I'm not convinced by the narrative that we used to have a pathway, everyone was patient and it was a better strategy. I won't, however, disagree that the board needs to get its message straight and that comms have been detrimental. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said: Did we need greater depth of experience ? Imo no we had plenty of experience in both age and championship appearances. Why do you think last seasons u21' s haven't featured in the first 11 for the past 12 months. If you don't play them how will you ever find out if they're good enough ? If you put a young centre half in First Team Training and the completely "useless" (I am advised) Fally and Armstrong tear them a new one then we really don't need to risk losing three points on a Saturday to find out....................when we already know the answer. Someone like Morrison, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. He showed more than enough both in terms of ability and, crucially, the physical and mental aggression required to play at the level in his cameo on Saturday. It would very questionable if Liam starts ignoring him now and would provide proof not ammunition that what @Silvio Dante is saying rings true. I assume that Campbell Slowey must also be showing something to get on the bench. I agree that Manning seems to be too cautious with some of our young lads but, at the same time, you can't just chuck every lad in the pool and hope they swim. Three consecutive defeats doing that and the same posters demanding half a team of Bristolians (not @Silvio Dante) are sharpening the knives.............. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 A friend of mine has just messaged me to say that he saw Ross walking around the Harbourside with his girlfriend yesterday. Maybe the damage wasn't as bad as first feared? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 23 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: A friend of mine has just messaged me to say that he saw Ross walking around the Harbourside with his girlfriend yesterday. Maybe the damage wasn't as bad as first feared? I hope, if Ross was walking round the harbourside with your mates girlfriend that your friend is now seriously questioning the relationship. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 2 hours ago, mozo said: Are these two objectives compatible? And how patient are we willing to be with U21s? Because you won't find out in one game, whether they are good enough. If they aren’t don’t bullshit they are. Looks like SL has finally realised sustainability isn’t either! 1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said: They really don’t. In simple terms, people have shown historically that they will be patient when a pathway exists and will take a mid table side under financial constraints while playing young players. The closure of that pathway, while still not moving forward in positional terms/entertainment is what is grinding people’s gears. It’s not “tricky”. Either invest and have a go at it for top six - then people will be “ok” the pathway is broken. Or accept you’re building and develop the academy. Or choose purgatory. Well summed up. 1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said: I’m not fool enough to think I can speak for the fanbase, but it would be remiss of me not to state we’ve just been through the exact situation I described of playing young players in the last few seasons and the fanbase reacted by and large exactly as described. The problem isn’t the fanbase reaction. But I’ll say that fans will naturally have more patience with SPH coming through than Sinclair Armstrong signed for £2m and probably understandably so. The issue is the hierarchy have by words and deeds stated that they will use a pathway and mount a top six challenge. Thats the bit that’s incompatible- their words vs reality, not the fans wanting to progress vs a pathway. And again. 1 hour ago, Tecknical Director said: Yes. It’s not perfect, but we aren’t fishing in that pool, are we. Generally our recruitment has been sound for a few years, hence why we are 11th and 3 / 4 points off of the playoffs and 7 games unbeaten. Maybe I’m a glass half full kinda guy, or maybe I don’t let it bother me as much as others, but I’m happy with the team and the football being played. Recruitment has generally been sound for a period. Imho (having been taken through it by RG) that was because we had a very solid plan about what we needed, and an understanding as to how that would evolve, ie lots of core physical attributes to start with, gradually recruiting more technical capabilities on top. That plan is no longer being run and adapted by the people who devised it and put it in place. What we do know (based on one summer) is that the recruitment plan has changed, in terms of looking abroad. We will have to wait a bit longer to see if it is as efficient under this new group. @NDW4CITY started a thread with some early opinion. 50 minutes ago, mozo said: Let's not forget though that with Semenyo, Vyner and Pring the pathway included time out at other clubs, which is what is happening now. So does that count as pathway? You make that sound like a positive, like it was a clear plan. In the main I’d argue that was because there was no pathway…it took Holden to give Vyner and Semenyo their proper chance (and Bakinson for a period too), and Pearson likewise for Pring and several others. Pathway is more than just giving a player his chance or seeing them on the bench. When you hear Ian say Morrison and Campbell-Slowey’s inclusion is proof of the pathway and everyone saying otherwise is wrong, just shows he doesn’t really understand it. They are included because of injuries. One element of a true pathway is understanding what you have in academy and not signing players on long contracts or loans that are gonna stop them getting opportunities. It’s a “I’m gonna forego signing x because y will be blocked in 6 or 12 or 18 months time if I do”. Pathway building is crucial financially too. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDarwall Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: I hope, if Ross was walking round the harbourside with your mates girlfriend that your friend is now seriously questioning the relationship. Playing the long game, he knows anything too physical & Ross will pick up an injury & need to be subbed off.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 minute ago, TDarwall said: Playing the long game, he knows anything too physical & Ross will pick up an injury & need to be subbed off.... “He’s pulled something” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oizys Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 (edited) On 27/10/2024 at 10:15, mozo said: Yeah good points. A couple of things... Presumably the reason we haven't played Morrison because we didn't think he was ready based on what they've seen in training etc. It's easy for us to speculate without really knowing Secondly, I agree that losing a couple of games for the greater good is fine. But I don't thing Manning can afford to take any risks. He's already been booed 2/3 times and had reports out there that he's on a warning, so to speak. And we've only lost 2 of 12 games! Tragic circumstances have probably given him a lot more leeway than he would have had. From a black and white perspective if he was on a warning then nothing professionally has changed and that warning should remain in place from a purely football/business point of view. But this situation sadly is anything but black and white. I think the booing will return, but not for a while. You don't kick a man while he's down as low as he is. It doesn't and shouldn't prevent people from voicing concerns and criticism on here - let's be honest if he reads this forum then he's a bloody idiot - but I think there'll be less ready to voice it in the ground. Also....."We've lost 2 of 12 games" sounds good. "We've won 3 of 12 games" doesn't. Edited October 28 by Oizys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 3 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said: 7 unbeaten is nonsense! Draw specialists, you could be unbeaten by drawing for a season and get 46 points which would relegate you. The football we are serving up on the whole is dire. Stoke away as I said was the exception, yet we changed the way we played to stop Leeds getting a win. It has been dire, but the team deserves plaudits for coming out of three difficult games - where many predicted us getting 0 points - with 5. For lots of the first half, we more than matched a talented Leeds side. No goals but some exciting football. I even noticed one attack where we broke with speed!!!! Of course it all broke down in the second, but that shows what I think about City at the moment. Some good players, not all gelling and not necessarily being deployed in the most sensible way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 33 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: I hope, if Ross was walking round the harbourside with your mates girlfriend that your friend is now seriously questioning the relationship. True enough, but as my mate is gay, I never really thought that Ross was out with anyone other than Ross's girlfriend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 1 minute ago, Port Said Red said: True enough, but as my mate is gay, I never really thought that Ross was out with anyone other than Ross's girlfriend. He’s shown in recent weeks he likes to play both sides! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: He’s shown in recent weeks he likes to play both sides! 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: He’s shown in recent weeks he likes to play both sides! Ross might do, my mate doesn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: It’s a “I’m gonna forego signing x because y will be blocked in 6 or 12 or 18 months time if I do”. Pathway building is crucial financially too. IIRC, Liam said words to this effect at his first presser (and his first at Oxford) and it’s a philosophy all of us can get behind. I think that’s where one of the issues in the McNally signing is - people can make the argument that JKL will replace Naismith in the squad at season end, but the McNally signing pushes him back down to 5th choice even with that considered. If there was an argument that JKL would be ready next season (and it’s a fair argument based on 30 odd bench appearances last season and a so far good loan this year) then you don’t sign McNally. Similar point here with SPH - if you think he’s ready in a years time to be part of the squad, then the signing of two project strikers which we all seem to think means a proven front man remains on the shopping list blocks that route. He becomes 4th in line for a sole position. The only one of our signings that probably makes sense “pathway” wise is Earthy keeping a space warm for Stokes. Of course, there could be a view that neither JKL or SPH are going to make it. But it strikes me that the combination of signings and likely blockage will kill them dead in the water, even if we think loans will develop them. Thats really what the pathway is. As you say, it’s not sticking your players in on an injury crisis - it’s actually having a “BAU” strategy. Not sure one actually exists. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: If they aren’t don’t bullshit they are. Looks like SL has finally realised sustainability isn’t either! Like I said, the comms have been detrimental. But my skepticism stands about patience levels. Well summed up. And again. Recruitment has generally been sound for a period. Imho (having been taken through it by RG) that was because we had a very solid plan about what we needed, and an understanding as to how that would evolve, ie lots of core physical attributes to start with, gradually recruiting more technical capabilities on top. That plan is no longer being run and adapted by the people who devised it and put it in place. What we do know (based on one summer) is that the recruitment plan has changed, in terms of looking abroad. We will have to wait a bit longer to see if it is as efficient under this new group. @NDW4CITY started a thread with some early opinion. You make that sound like a positive, like it was a clear plan. Maybe in your own head, I definitely didn't use positive language. I even asked 'is that a pathway?' So all you've done here is answered my question. But this isn't even remotely specific to City. Most clubs develop players by loaning them out, then bringing them back when they're up to a certain level. I think there's a very interesting debate to be had about whether Pring, Reid, Semenyo and Vyner should have been given all that gametime with us, rather than lower league clubs, Scotland etc. I don't think there's a simple answer to that. But again, going back to the actual point, would the AG crowd have tolerated a some sketchy performances in their first season or two? Especially Vyner took ages to cut out the mistakes, even after 100 pro games. In the main I’d argue that was because there was no pathway…it took Holden to give Vyner and Semenyo their proper chance (and Bakinson for a period too), and Pearson likewise for Pring and several others. Pathway is more than just giving a player his chance or seeing them on the bench. When you hear Ian say Morrison and Campbell-Slowey’s inclusion is proof of the pathway and everyone saying otherwise is wrong, just shows he doesn’t really understand it. They are included because of injuries. One element of a true pathway is understanding what you have in academy and not signing players on long contracts or loans that are gonna stop them getting opportunities. It’s a “I’m gonna forego signing x because y will be blocked in 6 or 12 or 18 months time if I do”. Pathway building is crucial financially too. Like I said, I'd be happy with that. But it could easily affect results. My response above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: IIRC, Liam said words to this effect at his first presser (and his first at Oxford) and it’s a philosophy all of us can get behind. I think that’s where one of the issues in the McNally signing is - people can make the argument that JKL will replace Naismith in the squad at season end, but the McNally signing pushes him back down to 5th choice even with that considered. If there was an argument that JKL would be ready next season (and it’s a fair argument based on 30 odd bench appearances last season and a so far good loan this year) then you don’t sign McNally. Similar point here with SPH - if you think he’s ready in a years time to be part of the squad, then the signing of two project strikers which we all seem to think means a proven front man remains on the shopping list blocks that route. He becomes 4th in line for a sole position. The only one of our signings that probably makes sense “pathway” wise is Earthy keeping a space warm for Stokes. Of course, there could be a view that neither JKL or SPH are going to make it. But it strikes me that the combination of signings and likely blockage will kill them dead in the water, even if we think loans will develop them. Thats really what the pathway is. As you say, it’s not sticking your players in on an injury crisis - it’s actually having a “BAU” strategy. Not sure one actually exists. I'm not sure how I feel about McNally as a signing. Presumably we brought him in as competition for Vyner, before our entire left side got jinxed. Would Knight Lebel have been ready at 19 for Championship football? It feels a bit much? But that does now leave us with 3 RCBs. Pring definitely needed competition and cover, so was Roberts a good signing, or not? Because the two of them definitely block Morrison. Palmer-Houlden I think is in a good position. He's getting games, developing, and when he comes back he can give Armstrong and Mayulu competition. I think with Wells to be let go next summer, and Cornick wither moved on or happy to potter around, that seems like decent succession planning, especially as all three are different. That's me making an assumption though that SPH is brought back into the squad (I think he will be). You've pointed out that Earthy can keep the shirt warm for Stokes, although even then Stokes might have preferred to stay here. Does Murphy come into the mix next year? I'm not exactly troubled by the pathway this season, depending on how it develops next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 46 minutes ago, mozo said: I'm not sure how I feel about McNally as a signing. Presumably we brought him in as competition for Vyner, before our entire left side got jinxed. Would Knight Lebel have been ready at 19 for Championship football? It feels a bit much? But that does now leave us with 3 RCBs. Pring definitely needed competition and cover, so was Roberts a good signing, or not? Because the two of them definitely block Morrison. Palmer-Houlden I think is in a good position. He's getting games, developing, and when he comes back he can give Armstrong and Mayulu competition. I think with Wells to be let go next summer, and Cornick wither moved on or happy to potter around, that seems like decent succession planning, especially as all three are different. That's me making an assumption though that SPH is brought back into the squad (I think he will be). You've pointed out that Earthy can keep the shirt warm for Stokes, although even then Stokes might have preferred to stay here. Does Murphy come into the mix next year? I'm not exactly troubled by the pathway this season, depending on how it develops next year. I won’t be convinced that McNally was a better option for the club than playing Naismith. We could have used the fee and wages (4 year deal!!!) elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 42 minutes ago, mozo said: Palmer-Houlden I think is in a good position. He's getting games, developing, and when he comes back he can give Armstrong and Mayulu competition. I think with Wells to be let go next summer, and Cornick wither moved on or happy to potter around, that seems like decent succession planning, especially as all three are different. That's me making an assumption though that SPH is brought back into the squad (I think he will be). Seb hasn’t started a league game for Dundee since mid September, plus his only league goal came on his debut. He’s been getting minimal late minutes as a sub since then & if I was a betting man I’d wager we will recall him in January & he then goes out on loan in League One. Starting next season with Armstrong, Mayulu & Seb as our three main strikers none who will be over 23, none with any track record of scoring at this level would be incredibly risky or completely insane, choose your preference. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 1 hour ago, mozo said: I'm not exactly troubled by the pathway this season, depending on how it develops next year. It’s not a one season thing. You don’t say “we are gonna have a pathway next season but not this”, it’s an overarching strategy than runs through the club and covers first team, academy, recruitment (all levels), financial, etc. it’s not player x versus player y either. If the strategy has changed, and we are now a “first team results first and foremost” then communicate that. Last season we seemed to be an “u18s FYC first and foremost”. 17 minutes ago, Henry said: I won’t be convinced that McNally was a better option for the club than playing Naismith. We could have used the fee and wages (4 year deal!!!) elsewhere. Yep, and it’s that impact to the pathway over a period of time…and the knock-ons financially or knock-ons of not being able to convince a youngster to sign for the club, because he’s looked at the line of players and the blocker. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 36 minutes ago, Henry said: I won’t be convinced that McNally was a better option for the club than playing Naismith. We could have used the fee and wages (4 year deal!!!) elsewhere. I think that's a fair comment. The obvious positive is that at least McNally is a good age and will probably improve. 34 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Seb hasn’t started a league game for Dundee since mid September, plus his only league goal came on his debut. He’s been getting minimal late minutes as a sub since then & if I was a betting man I’d wager we will recall him in January & he then goes out on loan in League One. Starting next season with Armstrong, Mayulu & Seb as our three main strikers none who will be over 23, none with any track record of scoring at this level would be incredibly risky or completely insane, choose your preference. Thanks for the update on Seb, Graham. That suggests that Seb wasn't ready to replace Conway. Regards the three, there are 10 months til next season. Each of them could develop in that time. We'll have to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollsRoyce Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: It has been dire, but the team deserves plaudits for coming out of three difficult games - where many predicted us getting 0 points - with 5. For lots of the first half, we more than matched a talented Leeds side. No goals but some exciting football. I even noticed one attack where we broke with speed!!!! Of course it all broke down in the second, but that shows what I think about City at the moment. Some good players, not all gelling and not necessarily being deployed in the most sensible way. I agree with this. Whilst there was much about the second half vs Leeds that was questionable for me, (but that was a Manning issue), I thought the players showed energy and determination to get a result, that was evidently missing vs Derby/Blackburn for example. When I saw the team missing that attribute, I was hugely worried because, in my view, in this league, that spells relegation. If you do not compete at the basics, you will go in one direction. The players gave their all on Saturday, and that is a very positive sign. I still feel we are treading water with Manning and delaying the inevitable. We need better, and the sooner the better as we are wasting time. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 16 minutes ago, mozo said: I think that's a fair comment. The obvious positive is that at least McNally is a good age and will probably improve. Thanks for the update on Seb, Graham. That suggests that Seb wasn't ready to replace Conway. Regards the three, there are 10 months til next season. Each of them could develop in that time. We'll have to see. This is McNallys 3rd year at this level. He may improve but he won’t change the type he is. Ironically, Naismith’s style is more aligned with Manning’s supposed style of play. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 5 hours ago, Tecknical Director said: Yes. It’s not perfect, but we aren’t fishing in that pool, are we. Generally our recruitment has been sound for a few years, hence why we are 11th and 3 / 4 points off of the playoffs and 7 games unbeaten. Maybe I’m a glass half full kinda guy, or maybe I don’t let it bother me as much as others, but I’m happy with the team and the football being played. I understand we can’t buy a finished article type striker but for the money spent , I think our scouting should have been better. I’m going on the two front lads & also Twine 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tecknical Director Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said: I understand we can’t buy a finished article type striker but for the money spent , I think our scouting should have been better. I’m going on the two front lads & also Twine If we are going on the 2 up front then you may have a point. I disagree about Twine, I’m not sure why he’s getting the stick he is, but that’s football I guess. For me, if you’re spending £2m on a striker, it’s always going to be a punt and you’re never going to get the finished article. Armstrong is RAW and I honestly haven’t seen enough of Fally to make a judgement. What I can say is, do you remember the amount of stick Semenyo used to get? Now look at him. Armstrong has all the attributes of him, but I don’t think the footballing brain / natural ability is there. Time will tell, but we haven’t got that luxury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjmcity Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 6 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said: I understand we can’t buy a finished article type striker but for the money spent , I think our scouting should have been better. I’m going on the two front lads & also Twine I reckon the scouting for a player might be looking at a little longer term than a 12 game impact.. and you’d expect the work done means they stand a good chance of being a good fit for BCFC Of course you want results and performances straight away but these aren’t robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 4 hours ago, Numero Uno said: If you put a young centre half in First Team Training and the completely "useless" (I am advised) Fally and Armstrong tear them a new one then we really don't need to risk losing three points on a Saturday to find out....................when we already know the answer. Someone like Morrison, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. He showed more than enough both in terms of ability and, crucially, the physical and mental aggression required to play at the level in his cameo on Saturday. It would very questionable if Liam starts ignoring him now and would provide proof not ammunition that what @Silvio Dante is saying rings true. I assume that Campbell Slowey must also be showing something to get on the bench. I agree that Manning seems to be too cautious with some of our young lads but, at the same time, you can't just chuck every lad in the pool and hope they swim. Three consecutive defeats doing that and the same posters demanding half a team of Bristolians (not @Silvio Dante) are sharpening the knives.............. Re your first paragraph. I would be surprised if they are that bad and training with the first team. Obviously if they are that bad they wouldn't be near the first team, even for training. Unless you've loaned out your decent centre half who may make the front two look poor. I guess you're not referring to JKL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjmcity Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 6 minutes ago, Tecknical Director said: If we are going on the 2 up front then you may have a point. I disagree about Twine, I’m not sure why he’s getting the stick he is, but that’s football I guess. For me, if you’re spending £2m on a striker, it’s always going to be a punt and you’re never going to get the finished article. Armstrong is RAW and I honestly haven’t seen enough of Fally to make a judgement. What I can say is, do you remember the amount of stick Semenyo used to get? Now look at him. Armstrong has all the attributes of him, but I don’t think the footballing brain / natural ability is there. Time will tell, but we haven’t got that luxury. As I think it’s been alluded too above regarding the leeway given to academy vs purchases on development. Your points in semenyo are very valid and this can be extended to Reid and others too. It ties in to other moans about the pathway and blocking it etc etc. we have had an unbelievable purple patch for producing talent in the last 5-7 years which I’d argue is way above other clubs and the norm and I get that people expect this to continue but it’s probably quite cyclical so you have to supplement this with purchasing potential, which we have looked to do. yes this is probably at the expense of a ‘right here right now striker’ but likelihood is we couldn’t attract one anyway and there is a greater potential upside doing it this way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 33 minutes ago, Tecknical Director said: If we are going on the 2 up front then you may have a point. I disagree about Twine, I’m not sure why he’s getting the stick he is, but that’s football I guess. For me, if you’re spending £2m on a striker, it’s always going to be a punt and you’re never going to get the finished article. Armstrong is RAW and I honestly haven’t seen enough of Fally to make a judgement. What I can say is, do you remember the amount of stick Semenyo used to get? Now look at him. Armstrong has all the attributes of him, but I don’t think the footballing brain / natural ability is there. Time will tell, but we haven’t got that luxury. Agree on the last paragraph . Regarding twine , I think he’s the wrong type of no10 to fit the squad we have 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 42 minutes ago, Fjmcity said: I reckon the scouting for a player might be looking at a little longer term than a 12 game impact.. and you’d expect the work done means they stand a good chance of being a good fit for BCFC Of course you want results and performances straight away but these aren’t robots. Yeah I get that . As I’ve put in another reply . I’m not sure twine fits the squad we have . I’m also not sure Armstrong has the first touch & football intelligence to succeed at championship level. I’m not completely writing him off , & of course I want them all to be a hit but I’m not convinced .if we remember The statement from Richard Gould about getting the best out of every pound , I’m not sure that’s happening at the moment . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Henry said: This is McNallys 3rd year at this level. He may improve but he won’t change the type he is. Ironically, Naismith’s style is more aligned with Manning’s supposed style of play. Yeah at 25, McNally should have his best years ahead of him, but I agree that he's not the type that I would have signed. I'm not ruling out the idea that he could be a good partner for Dickie at this point. Edited October 28 by mozo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobBobbin Posted Tuesday at 12:06 Share Posted Tuesday at 12:06 On 27/10/2024 at 10:15, mozo said: Yeah good points. A couple of things... Presumably the reason we haven't played Morrison because we didn't think he was ready based on what they've seen in training etc. It's easy for us to speculate without really knowing Secondly, I agree that losing a couple of games for the greater good is fine. But I don't thing Manning can afford to take any risks. He's already been booed 2/3 times and had reports out there that he's on a warning, so to speak. And we've only lost 2 of 12 games! That's an assumption that can be made, however when you consider the full breadth of evidence of Manning's history in management ( @Silvio Dante has covered this numerous times) then it's arguably a fairer assumption that there is a fear/reluctance to take the leap of faith regardless of readiness. On your second point, I think the lack of picking/trusting the academy players is one of the factors that has contributed to the booing/negativity. That was firmly articulated as part of his job description. He has failed miserably on that KPI so far. That's not really something there is a reasonable argument against. The important point is, Elijah has proven unequivocally that he has the minerals and ability for this level. It is up to the coaches to ensure that he continues to do that. That's not to say he should be first choice for the rest of time, but he shouldn't be option number 5 for the position. Playing RM and MS out of position before trusting him cannot be a good thing, even if he wasn't good enough. Contextually it sends a message to the other academy players, it adds more pressure when the opportunity comes because being "last resort" isn't going to instil confidence is it?! On some of your subsequent posts/points I say this; Vyner, Semenyo and Pring weren't "ready" even after their loans. I'd argue they were much the same players pre-loan as they were post loan (Pring and Vyner were probably one more season away from leaving on a free). Their development came (and it's the case for all three imo) when they played consistently under Nige. They were coached by experienced second tier coaches and exposed to second tier players/standards on a daily basis. It was that that saw their growth. Same with AS, Conway, Bell. Same would have happened for Ephraim (IMO). The notion that loans help players development doesn't actually bare scrutiny imo. You've assumed that Seb's loan was going well and was a good thing, then when told it's not going well said it shows he's not ready. That's the problem, an assumption that when players go away they get better and if they don't they aren't ready. Our environment should be better than any step down loan. It is, even for all the criticisms of LM/BT. The question shouldn't be "are they ready". It should be "Can they become better than what we have". Once that crucial judgement is made the quickest route from A (Academy player) to Z (Established member of the first team) is here, playing, learning, growing in our way. Sadly we've gone back to buying players with ceilings and loaning pretty much everyone out. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted Tuesday at 12:24 Author Share Posted Tuesday at 12:24 (edited) @BobBobBobbin great post. The big problem I have with loaning out players into the EFL or SPL is entrusting a crucial phase of their development to third parties. I get the “loan ‘em to Yate or Bath to get them some men’s football for the first time”, but I always worry (some unfounded) about whether the loan helps or hinders. EY: JKL: SPH: . I worry that Seb’s minutes are really dropping off. Especially as he signed early in the window before Dundee’s squad formed. Edited Tuesday at 12:31 by Davefevs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobBobbin Posted Tuesday at 12:31 Share Posted Tuesday at 12:31 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: @BobBobBobbin great post. The big problem I have with loaning out players into the EFL or SPL is entrusting a crucial phase of their development to third parties. I get the “loan ‘em to Yate or Bath to get them some men’s football for the first time”, but I always worry (some unfounded) about whether the loan helps or hinders. EY: JKL: SPH: . I shorty that Seb’s minutes are really dropping off. Especially as he signed early in the window before Dundee’s squad formed. Yeah, So much is about the relationship/Quality of the coach where you're sending someone. Jerry Gill has proven himself to be trustworthy and helpful, Mark Cooper to be a total waste of time (Yet we keep sending him players to leave out). WSM seems to be another good place for some of the first experience type loans. We had good success with Flynn, at least in a sense that he gave them games. Since then we've not got the destination right nearly as many times as we've got it wrong. Dundee playing SPH RW is a major concern! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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