What if Conway had stayed...

[Davefevs]

@Nogbad the Bad as a counter to the opposite view, then I’m cool…and thanks for your explanation.

[Alessandro]

48 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If I appear to you to take a one-sided view it is to counter the many on here who take the opposite, and as I see it, at least equally one-sided view.

I was answering @Lorenzos Only Goal who said Conway knew he could quadruple his wages by moving elsewhere which clearly didn't turn out to be the case.

The number of goals he scored - not that many - and his position in the Championship top scorers - 27th= - is a matter of record.

My sympathy is not with the player who clearly wanted more money than we could reasonably offer, but with my club, who nurtured the player and then were rejected, despite a very good offer, at the first opportunity.

Of course he had every right to not talk about extending his contract but choosing that path indicates to me he had little feeling for the club or the fans so he didn't leave with my best wishes, or hopes for future success.

You could say - many have - he's a young man who is very career orientated and why wouldn't he seek even better wages elsewhere? 

That's fine but as a City fan I don't have to like it, and certainly won't be apportioning blame to the club.

I don't always agree with the actions of the club by any means - in fact the decision makers have fallen massively in my estimation and regularly pissed me off since the day Cotts was booted out, and they went on to rub salt in the wounds with their diabolical treatment of Nige.

Basically I agree with very little they do, but I do support their actions as far as Conway is concerned. 

 

46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Nogbad the Bad as a counter to the opposite view, then I’m cool…and thanks for your explanation.

Always important to have a counter to the argument. 

As I said earlier - a lot of the debate is around based around wages we simply have no idea about, so moot points.

But I'd like to pick up on your argument about leaving and why I personally disagree with you:

For years now, at least since LJ and MA we, as a club, have been selling BCFC to prospective signings and youth players as having 3 things:

1) - a sleeping giant status, huge potential and project to be in the premier league 

2) -a fantastic stepping stone to the top level, see Kodjia, Bryan, Reid etc etc

3) - a clear pathway into the first team for youth products and therefore a chance of points 1 or 2 

They give that presentation, sales pitch to every player and we've been told not to get attached to players, no sentiment, works both ways...

Tinnion said they want young, hungry players. Well, that's what they're getting!! You can't then ask a player to hold back for sentimental reasons when you've sold them the dream and we the club can't deliver it.

I've said over and again - BCFC, because of the decisions and management at the club, have for 10 years developed slower than our best players.

That's on us and not on them.

IMO every time we lose a player that outgrows us, that's on us a club for not being in a position to offer them either financially or footballing wise what they deserve and can get elsewhere.

Edited Wednesday at 15:30 by Alessandro

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had we offered Conway say..

3 +1 year deal

£20,000 per week.

Buyout clause of £10m.

Might he have signed and played to a strong and committed level.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Had we offered Conway say..

3 +1 year deal

£20,000 per week.

Buyout clause of £10m.

Might he have signed and played to a strong and committed level.

No idea.

[sh1t_ref_again]

On 24/11/2024 at 20:12, Davefevs said:

Wells 5 in 593

Armstrong 2 in 685

Mayulu 2 in 222

Total 9 in 1500

=====

Conway 6 in 666 (beast!) = 13.5 in the same 1500 mins.

=====

Obviously its not really apples v apples for posted for comparison.

Last year he was 10 league goals in 2300 minutes (including 5 penalties, which you can't really count for comparison), so 5 in 2300 minutes, or 3.2 for the same 1500 minutes.

I took the 2300 minutes from a web site so, may or may not be spot on but, you can see my point

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No idea.

Same..just trying to speculate on a sweet spot of how high we could be gone, vs say other players getting discontented, risk to our Financial Wage Structure etc.

Some sort of graduated or good basic, stronger than usual Goal Incentive another possible..or maybe the die was cast in Summer 2023.

[EX8 Red]

Probably would have played up front on his own,a position he didn’t seem to enjoy. Worked well with Nahki and they had a good understanding. Wells seems to be a good supporting influence towards the team

[Red Cyril 2]

Conway and Semenyou and Scott.

Now what if we still had all three ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Red Cyril 2 said:

Conway and Semenyou and Scott.

Now what if we still had all three ?

We would've failed FFP, the Semenyo stuff minimum...Scott was plagued by injury last season too iirc and he is out again sadly.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Last year he was 10 league goals in 2300 minutes (including 5 penalties, which you can't really count for comparison), so 5 in 2300 minutes, or 3.2 for the same 1500 minutes.

I took the 2300 minutes from a web site so, may or may not be spot on but, you can see my point

You can see my actual point in my last sentence!

=====

FWIW and it’s not worth anything, but 3 of his pens, at least one (might’ve been two) was where he was brought down and one was his header handballed.

Wells total this season includes one pen.

=====

I think Conway is a very good championship striker, and I think it’s a real shame he’s no longer at Bristol City.  Some don’t he is a very good chsmpionship striker.  Boro thought he was worth spending £3m(ish) on and £x in wages.

[bcfcnick]

I think a January Seb Palmer-Houlden recall might be the best solution given funds have been spent on the 'work in progress' strikers.  He's a physical presence, good attitude and has a decent goal scoring record.  Whether that would be replicated in the Championship I don't know but I suspect it might if he was played centrally.  Probably the most likely reason why he wouldn't be recalled is it would be an acknowledgement that the cash spent on forward players who struggle to hit the back of the net wasn't the most astute decision making.

[sh1t_ref_again]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I think Conway is a very good championship striker, and I think it’s a real shame he’s no longer at Bristol City.  Some don’t he is a very good chsmpionship striker.  Boro thought he was worth spending £3m(ish) on and £x in wages.

I liked Conway and would be happy if he was still here, but for some to make out how good he is and how we are missing him based on goals scored this year, whilst totally ignoring not a great record with us last year is a bit off. He may have improved, perhaps surrounded by better players or a style that suits him better, so does not follow he would have been any better than last year had he stayed 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

I think a January Seb Palmer-Houlden recall might be the best solution given funds have been spent on the 'work in progress' strikers.  He's a physical presence, good attitude and has a decent goal scoring record.  Whether that would be replicated in the Championship I don't know but I suspect it might if he was played centrally.  Probably the most likely reason why he wouldn't be recalled is it would be an acknowledgement that the cash spent on forward players who struggle to hit the back of the net wasn't the most astute decision making.

FWIW I think any recall would be to send him somewhere in the EFL.

Rightly or wrongly he’d be behind Wells, Armstrong, Mayulu, and Bell.  I’m not including Cornick.  And LM only plays one.

11 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I liked Conway and would be happy if he was still here, but for some to make out how good he is and how we are missing him based on goals scored this year, whilst totally ignoring not a great record with us last year is a bit off. He may have improved, perhaps surrounded by better players or a style that suits him better, so does not follow he would have been any better than last year had he stayed 

Yep, I get your point, but OTIB is about debating our opinions.  Some rationale used is a bit futile, some rationale very valid.

Edited Wednesday at 18:55 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

I think a January Seb Palmer-Houlden recall might be the best solution given funds have been spent on the 'work in progress' strikers.  He's a physical presence, good attitude and has a decent goal scoring record.  Whether that would be replicated in the Championship I don't know but I suspect it might if he was played centrally.  Probably the most likely reason why he wouldn't be recalled is it would be an acknowledgement that the cash spent on forward players who struggle to hit the back of the net wasn't the most astute decision making.

I'm unsure..it is a bit of a leap for one from the SPL to a Top half/Top 10 Championship side, secondly he is srill developing at Dundee. Think as it stands he should have the full year/season there IMO.

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 hours ago, Alessandro said:

 

Always important to have a counter to the argument. 

As I said earlier - a lot of the debate is around based around wages we simply have no idea about, so moot points.

But I'd like to pick up on your argument about leaving and why I personally disagree with you:

For years now, at least since LJ and MA we, as a club, have been selling BCFC to prospective signings and youth players as having 3 things:

1) - a sleeping giant status, huge potential and project to be in the premier league 

2) -a fantastic stepping stone to the top level, see Kodjia, Bryan, Reid etc etc

3) - a clear pathway into the first team for youth products and therefore a chance of points 1 or 2 

They give that presentation, sales pitch to every player and we've been told not to get attached to players, no sentiment, works both ways...

Tinnion said they want young, hungry players. Well, that's what they're getting!! You can't then ask a player to hold back for sentimental reasons when you've sold them the dream and we the club can't deliver it.

I've said over and again - BCFC, because of the decisions and management at the club, have for 10 years developed slower than our best players.

That's on us and not on them.

IMO every time we lose a player that outgrows us, that's on us a club for not being in a position to offer them either financially or footballing wise what they deserve and can get elsewhere.

I don't think Conway can be said to have 'outgrown' City 2 years ago at 20 - as I understand it that is when the club attempted to initiate negotiations  and he refused to talk.

No one has a problem with exceptional players like Scott moving on because everyone accepts he'd outgrown City, and was in demand from PL clubs.

In that case all parties benefit by the player moving on and he goes with everyone's best wishes. Conway wasn't in demand from PL clubs though and simply moved to a club in the same division doing not much better than City.

All of our players know they can probably get more money elsewhere if another club wants them - presumably there's a signing on fee for a start even if the wages are not too dissimilar.

I don't think he 'deserved' more than we apparently offered; he was still in the very early stages of his career and his record was not exceptional, nothing like it.

He may be 2nd top scorer at sporadically high scoring Middlesbro, but - and happy to be corrected here - from what I can see he hasn't nailed down a first team place and has often appeared as a sub., so it could well be he is mostly scoring against tired defences or already beaten teams.

Having ended up upping sticks to the other end of the country to a similarly placed club he may or may not settle happily in the North East, he may or may not prove to be a success there.

Was he badly advised, as said by BT at the Forum, and iirc. seconded by JL? In my opinion, almost certainly yes.

 

 

[FNQ]

13 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Was he badly advised, as said by BT at the Forum, and iirc. seconded by JL? In my opinion, almost certainly yes.

Can’t necessarily believe everything BT and JL tell you mind..

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't think Conway can be said to have 'outgrown' City 2 years ago at 20 - as I understand it that is when the club attempted to initiate negotiations  and he refused to talk.

No one has a problem with exceptional players like Scott moving on because everyone accepts he'd outgrown City, and was in demand from PL clubs.

In that case all parties benefit by the player moving on and he goes with everyone's best wishes. Conway wasn't in demand from PL clubs though and simply moved to a club in the same division doing not much better than City.

All of our players know they can probably get more money elsewhere if another club wants them - presumably there's a signing on fee for a start even if the wages are not too dissimilar.

I don't think he 'deserved' more than we apparently offered; he was still in the very early stages of his career and his record was not exceptional, nothing like it.

He may be 2nd top scorer at sporadically high scoring Middlesbro, but - and happy to be corrected here - from what I can see he hasn't nailed down a first team place and has often appeared as a sub., so it could well be he is mostly scoring against tired defences or already beaten teams.

Having ended up upping sticks to the other end of the country to a similarly placed club he may or may not settle happily in the North East, he may or may not prove to be a success there.

Was he badly advised, as said by BT at the Forum, and iirc. seconded by JL? In my opinion, almost certainly yes.

 

 

Summer 2023 Noggers.  Not two years ago.

I think that we sometimes cloud seasons with years, ie add one on, especially when we are part-way through the season.

Summer 2023 he had 2 years left on his contract.  When we sold him he had 1 year left, but it quickly / easily becomes “2 years ago”.  Not anyone's fault or anyone trying to be mischievous, just sometimes how our brain’s equate things.  There was only one year between first contract talks and us selling him.

In summer 2023 Tommy had just finished 2022-23 season, his first full / proper season, was 20/21 years old (Aug6 birthday) with 12 goals and 4 assists in all comps from the equivalent of 23.4 full 90s (27 starts / 11 subs).  Scotland u21 appearances had led to involvement in Scotland full team training that summer.  The club, at the time managed by Nigel Pearson, entered into talks.  The club, later managed by Liam Manning, could not conclude those contract talks.  We do not know who led those discussions and at what point.

We sold him to Boro a year later.

Thats the history (all factual).

So, Summer 2023 was start of this “escapade”.  The rest is all stories and opinions isn’t it?  Mine is different to yours, that’s life.

[Nogbad the Bad]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Summer 2023 Noggers.  Not two years ago.

I think that we sometimes cloud seasons with years, ie add one on, especially when we are part-way through the season.

Summer 2023 he had 2 years left on his contract.  When we sold him he had 1 year left, but it quickly / easily becomes “2 years ago”.  Not anyone's fault or anyone trying to be mischievous, just sometimes how our brain’s equate things.  There was only one year between first contract talks and us selling him.

In summer 2023 Tommy had just finished 2022-23 season, his first full / proper season, was 20/21 years old (Aug6 birthday) with 12 goals and 4 assists in all comps from the equivalent of 23.4 full 90s (27 starts / 11 subs).  Scotland u21 appearances had led to involvement in Scotland full team training that summer.  The club, at the time managed by Nigel Pearson, entered into talks.  The club, later managed by Liam Manning, could not conclude those contract talks.  We do not know who led those discussions and at what point.

We sold him to Boro a year later.

Thats the history (all factual).

So, Summer 2023 was start of this “escapade”.  The rest is all stories and opinions isn’t it?  Mine is different to yours, that’s life.

Yes, I'll remember that trying to be overly precise while making a number of points on a post is a bad idea - there's always the chance you'll be picked up on one of them.

I don't think an altered timescale makes a huge difference or invalidates the point I was making in that part of my post, and It seems unlikely to me the club wouldn't have an idea of his thinking some time before attempting to enter into talks anyway.

Conway could not be said, at that stage, to have 'outgrown' City, and whenever we accept first 'official' contact was made he would still have been a very young player who, we are told, had no intention of extending his contract.

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

there's always the chance you'll be picked up on one of them.

Especially by me…

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

we are told, had no intention of extending his contract.

I guess we can interpret the fact that he started talks as some indication he might have been happy to stay at some point.  I don’t believe he always had no intention, if that makes sense.

What is done is done.  We are a point of opinions aren’t we?

[Alessandro]

@Nogbad the Bad - I understand where you’re coming from - but as I say, I disagree. But it’s all opinions. As @Davefevs has outlined, it makes more sense to me.

Call it what you want, outgrow, better opportunity, whatever - if someone can offer you more money and more of a chance of fulfilling your premier league dream, then that is a route no one can begrudge.

I, and you, and probably 99.9% of people on this forum don’t know what was offered by City and when. I can’t predict the future, but if I was a betting man, I would say at Boro he has a better chance of premier league football. Time will tell if he was ill advised or not - but even so, our CEO shouldn’t be publicly saying that in my opinion. 

Edited Thursday at 15:22 by Alessandro

[Superjack]

6 hours ago, FNQ said:

Can’t necessarily believe everything BT and JL tell you mind..

Or anything...

[BCFC31]

I dont think the question should be " what if conway had stayed " he wanted out and imo he is over rated the question should absolutely be " what if we hadn't blew the 5m received for Conway up the wall " 

[Superjack]

35 minutes ago, BCFC31 said:

I dont think the question should be " what if conway had stayed " he wanted out and imo he is over rated the question should absolutely be " what if we hadn't blew the 5m received for Conway up the wall " 

In my opinion, he wouldn't have stayed, no matter what we offered him barring an absolute fortune.

I suspect that he was (almost) as disgusted with the treatment of Pearson as I was.

[Spike]

Said it before and will say it again, Middlesbrough got an amazing deal and our fans are far too quick to dismiss Conway because they don't seem to understand why he was so "underwhelming" here. That lad is better than any of our strikers and has twice as much potential, he's just got to be used correctly and having a ratio almost 33% better than Wells so far this season says it all. 
I honestly don't care if this post gets me a lot of facepalm emojis or whatever else is used on this forum to try and undermine the validity of a post, we know full well that we lost out there.
Tommy when put into a position to run side by side with a defender is better than any of our current strikers.
Tommy is better on the ball than Armstrong, just as prolific as Wells but with more range in his finishing and just as strong with his technique as Mayulu. The only reason he looked "underwhelming" for us was simply because we weren't creating **** all for our striker at the time and now we're finally seeing that happen Wells looks like our main choice because he's the only one who can get into a good position and finish. Armstrong brings a lot to the team but he requires a striker partner to really shine and honestly, sometimes I think he'd made a bigger imposing winger than a striker. Fally has shown technique and finishing but his positioning is poor, he doesn't get into the dangerous positions where we supply the ball to and Wells is the only striker we have who has a little of everything but he's not imposing in any aspect of his game, he's just well rounded.

To answer the question of where would we be if he'd stayed, well, if we supplied him with the chances that Middlesbrough do, higher than we are now.

[ProfitInMyPocket]

Only scores penalties...

 

[Cidre Monita]

Third top scorer in the league now. Probably hit 20 plus if he stays fit. 

[Davefevs]

No here @Spike.

A lot of jilted bride fans imho, for a number of reasons. 

[harvey54]

7 goals in 14 in the league to date. The 20 goals a season striker that we need. 

Another great example of mismanagement by the powers that be at this club. 

[cidercity1987]

One of the great City **** ups in many years.

Take a £10m + asset, devalue him to £5m by playing him alone up front in an uncreative system, lose him to a club who shouldnt be more attractive than us but are, replace him with Sinclair Armstrong

I think the Tecknical and the board have a lot to answer for 

[JAWS]

On 28/11/2024 at 11:17, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yes, I'll remember that trying to be overly precise while making a number of points on a post is a bad idea - there's always the chance you'll be picked up on one of them.

I don't think an altered timescale makes a huge difference or invalidates the point I was making in that part of my post, and It seems unlikely to me the club wouldn't have an idea of his thinking some time before attempting to enter into talks anyway.

Conway could not be said, at that stage, to have 'outgrown' City, and whenever we accept first 'official' contact was made he would still have been a very young player who, we are told, had no intention of extending his contract.

 

I understand your disappointmen Nog but, in the absence of absolute 'behind the scenes' knowledge, the fact is that we've lost a talented young home grown talent to a rival top 6 team.  This scenario is hard to fathom, except when everyone has knowledge that city have a reputation for lack of ambition. The opposite can be said of Boro, who's owner is constantly striving for success and also without parachute payments.

It's quite simple & you can hardly blame him.  Boro are sadly an upgrade both in terms of money & opportunity, even if it's only a stepping stone.

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, Cidre Monita said:

Third top scorer in the league now. Probably hit 20 plus if he stays fit. 

He'll be worth a fortune next summer if he does. 

[Northern Red]

Imagine not rating him....

[BobBobBobbin]

48 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Imagine not rating him....

Jilted bride syndrome. 

You can be loyal to the club without tying yourself in knots claiming excellent players are actually bad.

My mates friend's second cousin said she'd heard he was a cock on a night out is another fantastic example of the weird behaviour since he left. 

 

[Spike]

8 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

He'll be worth a fortune next summer if he does. 

I'd imagine we don't have a sell-on clause either as he was want-away, be interesting if anyone knows if there is or not but I can see him going for double figures in the future.

[MelksRed]

On 24/11/2024 at 14:43, The Humble Realist said:

What if we had kept Conway and just accepted he would leave for free (or in Jan for a cut price) and hadn't brought in Armstrong and Fally.

We would still be dealing with a stroppy unprofessional person who wanted to follow his mate (Scott) but wasn't as talented. 

The hype from the 2 goals at West Ham went to his head. Largely he didn't play particularly well for us, remember his final few months he just whinged and added little.

In short, he would have been a destructive influence had he stayed. 

 

[mozo]

I'm pretty relaxed about Conway doing well. He served us well, earned us a few mill and we're doing okay without him. 

My only negative feeling is that Middlesbrough are a competitor of ours, 5 points ahead in the league, so I generally hope they start to struggle.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Spike said:

I'd imagine we don't have a sell-on clause either as he was want-away, be interesting if anyone knows if there is or not but I can see him going for double figures in the future.

I would be surprised if we didn’t. It’s pretty standard these days even if the actual percentage can vary.  We have other add-ons, no reason to think we don’t have a sell-on too. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 hours ago, JAWS said:

I understand your disappointmen Nog but, in the absence of absolute 'behind the scenes' knowledge, the fact is that we've lost a talented young home grown talent to a rival top 6 team.  This scenario is hard to fathom, except when everyone has knowledge that city have a reputation for lack of ambition. The opposite can be said of Boro, who's owner is constantly striving for success and also without parachute payments.

It's quite simple & you can hardly blame him.  Boro are sadly an upgrade both in terms of money & opportunity, even if it's only a stepping stone.

I'm really not disappointed he left Jaws, but I can see my 'outspoken' views on Conway are likely to be referenced - not by you btw. - every time he scores.

I've never said he wasn't a reasonable Championship scorer and of course he's likely to score a few more than his top score of 10 for City in a team that appears to create more chances and generally score more goals.

He was determined to leave though, that's the bottom line afaic, a bit annoying he went to a divisional rival - who we've already beaten this season - but that was probably inevitable though I'm quite sure he wasn't dreaming about Middlesbrough when he put his foot down about not accepting an extension.

Atm. he's doing very well - but even while scoring 1 in 4 of their goals he's only a couple ahead of Anis in the scoring charts, and I have to say when it comes to quality of goals Anis is miles ahead imo.

 

 

[Olé]

I don’t think Conway works very well in our setup so it was the right move for all concerned. He’s too selfish and a natural finisher of moves in and around the six yard box which is a great trait in a system that is there to feed that role, but a waste of time in a team that requires a lone striker to drop and bring others into play. Just look at how intelligent and unselfish Wells is, and I expect in his own way Manning is looking for Armstrong to wear down defenders and lay off simple balls to runners as much as he is to be a natural finisher.

Looking in the Football League Paper this morning on their stats page they have a long list of about the 20 top scorers in the Championship. Only three clubs have more than one player in that group, yes Boro and Conway are one of them, but the others are Watford and Bristol City (Mehmeti and Wells) so I think we’re doing alright. Despite having two wingers we’re not scoring much direct from crosses (what Conway thrives on) last Wells at Preston or Armstrong home to Oxford in September - far more from runs at the box or overlaps?

[Kid in the Riot]

6 minutes ago, Olé said:

Looking in the Football League Paper this morning on their stats page they have a long list of about the 20 top scorers in the Championship. Only three clubs have more than one player in that group, yes Boro and Conway are one of them, but the others are Watford and Bristol City (Mehmeti and Wells) so I think we’re doing alright. Despite having two wingers we’re not scoring much direct from crosses (what Conway thrives on) last Wells at Preston or Armstrong home to Oxford in September - far more from runs at the box or overlaps?

Despite concerns over our goalscoring, only 6 teams in the C'ship have scored more than us this season.

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Despite concerns over our goalscoring, only 6 teams in the C'ship have scored more than us this season.

Including 10 goals from our woeful strikers 

 

[Swede]

On 27/11/2024 at 14:42, Nogbad the Bad said:

If I appear to you to take a one-sided view it is to counter the many on here who take the opposite, and as I see it, at least equally one-sided view.

I was answering @Lorenzos Only Goal who said Conway knew he could quadruple his wages by moving elsewhere which clearly didn't turn out to be the case.

The number of goals he scored - not that many - and his position in the Championship top scorers - 27th= - is a matter of record.

My sympathy is not with the player who clearly wanted more money than we could reasonably offer, but with my club, who nurtured the player and then were rejected, despite a very good offer, at the first opportunity.

Of course he had every right to not talk about extending his contract but choosing that path indicates to me he had little feeling for the club or the fans so he didn't leave with my best wishes, or hopes for future success.

You could say - many have - he's a young man who is very career orientated and why wouldn't he seek even better wages elsewhere? 

That's fine but as a City fan I don't have to like it, and certainly won't be apportioning blame to the club.

I don't always agree with the actions of the club by any means - in fact the decision makers have fallen massively in my estimation and regularly pissed me off since the day Cotts was booted out, and they went on to rub salt in the wounds with their diabolical treatment of Nige.

Basically I agree with very little they do, but I do support their actions as far as Conway is concerned. 

Great post, I would also add that he's ambitious (nothing wrong with that) & wants to play more on a bigger stage with Scotland. His stock was a lot higher with talk (agent talk) of the old firm being interested then when he eventually signed for Boro. Football is a short career and you're only one bad injury away from finishing it. Add in his obvious admiration of Pearson and the way we set up with Manning and Manning's initial lack of popularity, I don't blame him one bit. I don't blame the club either in having to get the best fee at the time. If there's a critical note to apportion then it's him listening too much to his agent, as he obviously hasn't ended up where he was originally promised.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

On 28/11/2024 at 10:13, Nogbad the Bad said:

Was he badly advised, as said by BT at the Forum, and iirc. seconded by JL? In my opinion, almost certainly yes.

Not convinced his current situation screams badly advised. 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

On 27/11/2024 at 14:42, Nogbad the Bad said:

If I appear to you to take a one-sided view it is to counter the many on here who take the opposite, and as I see it, at least equally one-sided view.

I was answering @Lorenzos Only Goal who said Conway knew he could quadruple his wages by moving elsewhere which clearly didn't turn out to be the case.

The number of goals he scored - not that many - and his position in the Championship top scorers - 27th= - is a matter of record.

It's not about how many goals he scored that season, it's about how many he was capable of scoring.  He's not getting loads of minutes at Boro they were expecting Latte Lath to leave.  Yet he's got a strike rate goals per minute that's the best at Boro and he's on for 20 goals this season.  

In terms of his wages, what's a matter of record is they pay roughly a third more in wages than us for a number of reasons, and it's also a matter of record that he was signed for reasonably big money.  Do you think we're paying Scott Twine senior academy pro wages? No we're paying him the market rate for a 10 we brought in.  Most people throw out the number of 10k a week as a going rate for a top striker. Yet you're ignoring that in your thinking.  It's not a lot of money for a big team senior professional in the championship.  We offered him in the region of £2.5k.  Worse case scenario for him he's added £750 a week over what he was offered here.  Best end he's been offered market rate for a decent striker in this division which is way over £10k a week so he's certainly way better off at Boro than here and they're better off with his goals.

[Ashtongreight]

On 28/11/2024 at 10:13, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't think Conway can be said to have 'outgrown' City 2 years ago at 20 - as I understand it that is when the club attempted to initiate negotiations  and he refused to talk.

No one has a problem with exceptional players like Scott moving on because everyone accepts he'd outgrown City, and was in demand from PL clubs.

In that case all parties benefit by the player moving on and he goes with everyone's best wishes. Conway wasn't in demand from PL clubs though and simply moved to a club in the same division doing not much better than City.

All of our players know they can probably get more money elsewhere if another club wants them - presumably there's a signing on fee for a start even if the wages are not too dissimilar.

I don't think he 'deserved' more than we apparently offered; he was still in the very early stages of his career and his record was not exceptional, nothing like it.

He may be 2nd top scorer at sporadically high scoring Middlesbro, but - and happy to be corrected here - from what I can see he hasn't nailed down a first team place and has often appeared as a sub., so it could well be he is mostly scoring against tired defences or already beaten teams.

Having ended up upping sticks to the other end of the country to a similarly placed club he may or may not settle happily in the North East, he may or may not prove to be a success there.

Was he badly advised, as said by BT at the Forum, and iirc. seconded by JL? In my opinion, almost certainly yes.

 

 

Having read your post and agreeing with most of it, I fail to understand your conclusion that he was badly advised, I’m not saying he was, or that he wasn’t, just that I don’t understand your reasoning 

[Davefevs]

@Lorenzos Only Goal £10k pw for a top striker….and the rest!!  The average chsmpionship wage is £12-14k p.w.

Nor did we offer Conway £2.5k pw.  Add a 1 on the front of that is nearer the mark.

[Nogbad the Bad]

11 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Most people throw out the number of 10k a week as a going rate for a top striker. Yet you're ignoring that in your thinking.  It's not a lot of money for a big team senior professional in the championship.  We offered him in the region of £2.5k.  

No idea where you get the 2.5k figure from.

From what I understand he was offered well in excess of 10k a week.

To imagine our best offer was in the region 2.5k is ridiculous imo.

 

 

[Solent Robin]

This is sounding similar to a NP thread. There are some posters who love to blame the club and will not move on. The wheels keep turning though. We know that BT doesn't sometimes engage his brain when opening his mouth particularly in response to perceived criticism. However, think it was most telling when LM said that Conway was too similar to the other strikers we had I.e Wells as a lone striker. Therefore, whilst the club under NP offered him a new contract, LM wanted something different and suspect the club became less bullish in trying to retain him. Also it was rumoured that he had spoken to Celtic but they wanted him to run down his contract to get him on the cheap, which wouldn't have sat well with the club. Therefore, we got the best (only) deal we could. No doubting Conway is a natural goalscorer but as yet hasn't developed his all round game. Therefore, his sale was probably right for both parties. You can see from the limited appearances so far that Armstrong and Fally bring some of the attributes that LM was looking for, but not as yet the goals. Fally does appear to have the natural instinct of a goal scorer from his limited minutes so far, but is clearly having to adjust to the intensity of the championship as well as living in a different country. 

 

 

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, Solent Robin said:

This is sounding similar to a NP thread. There are some posters who love to blame the club and will not move on. The wheels keep turning though. We know that BT doesn't sometimes engage his brain when opening his mouth particularly in response to perceived criticism. However, think it was most telling when LM said that Conway was too similar to the other strikers we had I.e Wells as a lone striker. Therefore, whilst the club under NP offered him a new contract, LM wanted something different and suspect the club became less bullish in trying to retain him. Also it was rumoured that he had spoken to Celtic but they wanted him to run down his contract to get him on the cheap, which wouldn't have sat well with the club. Therefore, we got the best (only) deal we could. No doubting Conway is a natural goalscorer but as yet hasn't developed his all round game. Therefore, his sale was probably right for both parties. You can see from the limited appearances so far that Armstrong and Fally bring some of the attributes that LM was looking for, but not as yet the goals. Fally does appear to have the natural instinct of a goal scorer from his limited minutes so far, but is clearly having to adjust to the intensity of the championship as well as living in a different country. 

 

 

Agree with much of what you say.  Boro weren’t the only team in the picture though.

[38MC]

4 hours ago, Ashtongreight said:

Having read your post and agreeing with most of it, I fail to understand your conclusion that he was badly advised, I’m not saying he was, or that he wasn’t, just that I don’t understand your reasoning 

It’s hard to say he was badly advised looking at how it’s started 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Lorenzos Only Goal £10k pw for a top striker….and the rest!!  The average chsmpionship wage is £12-14k p.w.

Nor did we offer Conway £2.5k pw.  Add a 1 on the front of that is nearer the mark.

10k a week is a number people band about freely like it's a lot when I'm in full agreement that it's just less than average championship wage. All be that skewed by the top paying sides.

I was under the impression and if you listen to Tinnion etc they're always very careful to caveat everything with his age.  "We have made him a record offer for his age" etc etc, because the offer they had made was well below market rate but great compared to his peers,  It's sneaky as ****.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

4 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No idea where you get the 2.5k figure from.

From what I understand he was offered well in excess of 10k a week.

To imagine our best offer was in the region 2.5k is ridiculous imo.

This is the thing we didn't if you listen to what the club say they offered him anything more than a record offer for his peers/age not market or for the club.

Which pins what we offered him low/derisory compared to market.

[MarcusX]

On 24/11/2024 at 19:57, Bar BS3 said:

It could be said that, with playing 1 up front - with Wells on 5, Armstrong on 2 & Fally on 2 - would Conways 6 so far for Boro be more productive that what we have had..?

Conway definitely scores some of the chances Armstrong has missed, however there’s no guarantee he’d have got those chances

[Solent Robin]

I don't recall much other transfer speculation other than Celtic and Rangers who weren't prepared to make an offer. There may have been other clubs interested behind the scenes but not aware that anything was likely to materialise. No doubt his agent would have been touting him around and therefore it could be argued that other clubs especially from the Premier League were unconvinced. Don't think he was badly advised as Boro would have been the most attractive option available. Whilst we would have made our pitch on the benefits of him staying with us early in negotiations, he is an ambitious young men who thought the grass was greener elsewhere. However, fans would have been less resentful if it had been a premiership club. I think it can be safely assumed that Boro would have offered higher wages as well. 

On the subject of him playing alongside Wells, don't forget that NP had changed to 4-3-3 so he may have had to play as the lone striker following his injury lay off. Not many managers/coaches start playlng two up front these days, so LM is in good company (sorry IG). I don't think he warranted building a team around him.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 24/11/2024 at 19:57, Bar BS3 said:

It could be said that, with playing 1 up front - with Wells on 5, Armstrong on 2 & Fally on 2 - would Conways 6 so far for Boro be more productive that what we have had..?

Conway is now on 8.

Also what Marcus said.

[Numero Uno]

16 hours ago, Spike said:

I'd imagine we don't have a sell-on clause either as he was want-away, be interesting if anyone knows if there is or not but I can see him going for double figures in the future.

I can see Boro getting more than a tenner for him tbf…….

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

I can see Boro getting more than a tenner for him tbf…….

They wanted £20m for Latte-Lath in August as per Reports, not convinced they'll sell quickly subject to his contractual situation, their FFP position etc.

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Conway is now on 8.

Also what Marcus said.

Yeah, the same as Wells & Armstrong have scored whilst occupying our lonely striker position.

Of course, that may have been more if Conway had occupied that position this season.... but that's why we sold him for millions, despite his contract situation & he clearly didn't want to be here - so it's a void option/comparison anyway - but going purely by stats, we aren't really out of pocket on the returns.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

Yeah, the same as Wells & Armstrong have scored whilst occupying our lonely striker position.

Of course, that may have been more if Conway had occupied that position this season.... but that's why we sold him for millions, despite his contract situation & he clearly didn't want to be here - so it's a void option/comparison anyway - but going purely by stats, we aren't really out of pocket on the returns.

Probably £3.5m up front, up to £5m if targets and or Add-ons met.

He seems to have been played at 10 at times interestingly, behind Latte-Lath. Both are rather prolific but the latter did cost. 15 between those 2, an embarrassment of striking riches.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Yeah, the same as Wells & Armstrong have scored whilst occupying our lonely striker position.

Of course, that may have been more if Conway had occupied that position this season.... but that's why we sold him for millions, despite his contract situation & he clearly didn't want to be here - so it's a void option/comparison anyway - but going purely by stats, we aren't really out of pocket on the returns.

It’s an interesting one. If he had stayed and was currently on 12-14 goals versus the 10 scored by Nakhi,  Armstrong and Fally would he have been in a better position from a personal standpoint? Might have been looking at a Prem move. On the point that we offered him £2.5k per week, he would have been on more than that when he left!!

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Probably £3.5m up front, up to £5m if targets and or Add-ons met.

He seems to have been played at 10 at times interestingly, behind Latte-Lath. Both are rather prolific but the latter did cost. 15 between those 2, an embarrassment of striking riches.

Ours have got ten between them. That said, add 5 goals in selected matches and we are in the top 4!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Excellent though Conway can be, I don't see how he hits 12-14 by this stage of the season for us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

Ours have got ten between them. That said, add 5 goals in selected matches and we are in the top 4!!

Don't think our baseline performances have been Top 4 standard. They've been Playoff pushing IMO, may be could have another 2-3 pts over the piece.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't think our baseline performances have been Top 4 standard. They've been Playoff pushing IMO, may be could have another 2-3 pts over the piece.

Agreed but shows the difference a few goals makes. In fact to us it would be huge when you look at our recently found defensive improvement. Since Blackburn we’ve conceded ten times in thirteen matches. Don’t ever see stats like that bandied about!! Suggests that the direction of travel in that aspect is the right way currently and makes the “why did we sign McNally on a perm?” and “Calamity Max” posts seen on here recently all the more strange.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Agreed but shows the difference a few goals makes. In fact to us it would be huge when you look at our recently found defensive improvement. Since Blackburn we’ve conceded ten times in thirteen matches. Don’t ever see stats like that bandied about!! Suggests that the direction of travel in that aspect is the right way currently and makes the “why did we sign McNally on a perm?” and “Calamity Max” posts seen on here recently all the more strange.

Yes agreed and 10 in 13 is a notable improvement, didn't realise it was quite that good.

Max and McNally impressive as you say.

A Clean Sheet win at Home is another useful landmark. First time we have had that combination at Home this season.

5 Clean Sheets in the last 11 iirc, a lot of good signs there.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes agreed and 10 in 13 is a notable improvement, didn't realise it was quite that good.

Max and McNally impressive as you say.

A Clean Sheet win at Home is another useful landmark. First time we have had that combination at Home this season.

5 Clean Sheets in the last 11 iirc, a lot of good signs there.

You’ve got to get the back end right first. See Burnley and Sheffield United who win tight games for fun. The issue for Manning is to retain the solidity and get the front end firing more against better sides than we pummelled yesterday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You’ve got to get the back end right first. See Burnley and Sheffield United who win tight games for fun. The issue for Manning is to retain the solidity and get the front end firing more against better sides than we pummelled yesterday.

Yes agreed, albeit in general terms like I say we are a notch below Top 4, Top 4 and we are talking Automatic Promotion pushing. We aren't that and won't be IMO.

5th or 6th a realistic upper ceiling for me.

[Solent Robin]

Yep, we are heading in the right direction. Injuries have hindered the balance of the team and more progress. In reality we are about 3 points off where I expected us to be at this stage. The performances have been improving and become more consistent. If we can get back to back victories this weekend and get some momentum (easier said then done), then we can close the gap to the play offs and be in contention going into the new year.

[Bar BS3]

Deviating from the topic a little, but it's interesting to see that, as things currently stand - only 6 teams have scored more than us this season (surprising, as scoring goals feels like it's been our shortcoming, so far)

Of those 6 teams, only 3 have, in turn, conceded less goals than we have.

So only 3 teams have scored more & conceded less than we have & I think it's fair to say that alot of us feel somewhat frustrated that we have secured more points on the board than we have, as we sit 11th & 5 points behind the play off places.

I'd say that would suggest that we are not a million miles away from being towards the top end of this league.!

I think it's fair to say that there are a few (maybe 3 or 4) sides that look comfortably above our current level - but the rest of the table seems pretty wide open.

Only Plymouth (currently) look capable of sinking without trace - beyond them, any team pretty much looks capable of beating any other.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6th for XG, 7th for Non Penalty XG according to my model, it does suggest a top 3rd to Top 10 side and perhaps more is possible.

10th and 8th respectively at the other end.

Edited Sunday at 19:36 by Mr Popodopolous