How long do we give Manning….we keep waiting for it to click….

[bearded_red]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

The irony to your question is the statistics show we’re actually worse when we have more of the ball, and our results actually do come more from the counter style that Watford deployed last night

 

What I find so remarkable about these statistics is that they have remained the same now going through various managers and having turned over god knows how many players.

It’s why I don’t quite get it when people still seem scared about runs of games against the better teams and then confident in games against the lower teams. Even at times when the results don’t quite match up, you can still be pretty confident that when City are playing the more progressive and ambitious teams they’ll play pretty well and when they play the more negative teams it will be close to torture. Its also of course what was so mind blowing about Manning coming in last season and seemingly abandoning our strengths in counter attack but turning us into a team that passed it round the back at walking pace. We still play too slowly for my liking and we could still benefit from playing the ball forwards more often and more quickly but it hasn’t been as bad this season, certainly not since the dismal Sheffield Wednesday and Cardiff games.

Hope I’m wrong of course, but Saturday will likely be an abysmal game. City having the ball trying to break down a crap team that’s just been hammered. It’s seemingly impossible to change it, as it goes back years and through various managers, but we’re just a better team when the opposition have the ball.

[RedReg]

12 hours ago, SODS_LAW said:

Here we go  

we just out played a much better squad away from home, if you cant see the progress made in the last 12 months then you’re not very clued up on the game.

 

time to stay off here for a few days and let the deluded haters have the sunlight 

That's ok then. I forgot you get points for "outplaying" someone.

[Phantom]

12 hours ago, Jose said:

Had more points at this stage last season didn’t we? PROGRESS. 

What is this constant obsession with comparing with last season?

How about comparing over a couple of seasons where our position can actually be compared

[ProfitInMyPocket]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

The irony to your question is the statistics show we’re actually worse when we have more of the ball, and our results actually do come more from the counter style that Watford deployed last night

 

Always feel we play better when we're the underdog, been an underlying theme since we've been in the Championship.

It's hard to take that next step and try and become a more dominant team in games and be consistent with it.

And then expectations rise and more people are disappointed.

[Roe]

As has been discussed on here many times, the problem isn't the management really it's the structure above it

It would be ridiculous to sack a manager at this stage of the season with us in mid table, given what they have to work with

Which is of course why it was so ridiculous what happened 12 months ago

[bearded_red]

4 minutes ago, Phantom said:

What is this constant obsession with comparing with last season?

How about comparing over a couple of seasons where our position can actually be compared

Because if the aim is to compete for the playoffs we have to do better than we did last season, surely that’s obvious?

Why on earth would anybody compare it over a couple of seasons when two/three years ago the club and squad were in a completely different place and the aims were completely different?

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, Phantom said:

What is this constant obsession with comparing with last season?

How about comparing over a couple of seasons where our position can actually be compared

A couple of very good reasons:

- The average lifespan of a manager at this level is about a season. If they’re going to achieve discernable improvement, typically it happens then. The longest serving manager in the league has had 2 years 2 months, and Manning is 9th on the list.

- The specific circumstances (however bullshitty) about pushing an established squad on

Again, this isn’t a “sack him” post. But a head coach coming into a solid mid table side achieving nothing other than aesthetic improvement in the eyes of some (and regressing in like for like points return) when he’s over the average lifespan of a reign at this level seems at the very least a reasonable debate?

[Fjmcity]

14 minutes ago, ProfitInMyPocket said:

Always feel we play better when we're the underdog, been an underlying theme since we've been in the Championship.

It's hard to take that next step and try and become a more dominant team in games and be consistent with it.

And then expectations rise and more people are disappointed.

Agree with this, I would say our club was its most united when we first came up, it really was us against them and that pulled a team up to be far far greater than the sum of its parts and one game away from the premier league 

in some ways it has been the worst thing that happened to us to, a lot of fans refuse to see us as the underdogs since that season and that it is our right to be competing right at the top when in reality the championship is a lot more difficult than that

[38MC]

3 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Did you have the same thoughts the last time we played Burnley and Sheffield Utd at home and 'worked them bloody hard.' Not forgetting 2 seasons ago when we worked 'bloody hard' against a better Watford team to gain a point and clean sheet with Andy King at centre half or has your agenda changed. Asking for a friend.

You're wildly barking up the wrong tree. 

I have thawed to Manning probably only in the last few weeks that's the only change. I was a fully fledged signed up member of the NP remorse club along with WSM and all the others. So yes, I would have had the same response 2 years ago when we played Burnley and Sheff Utd and no my agenda has not changed. What has changed is I have seen enough over recent weeks on the pitch, off the pitch (fans forum), and to see the unity in the team, to have a little more patience with Manning. 

If you'd have asked me the thread title's question post Cardiff, I would have said 'sack him today' without one iota of hesitation. So absolutely zero agenda. 

I can walk away from those types of games with 0 points but not be too despondent if we gave a bloody good fight. Looking towards the next 10, Sunderland is probably the only one I would consider a similar 'free hit'. I expect the points to start to accumulate again up to the New Year and will be happy if they do. If they don't then I may start going back to my Cardiff position. 

So there's some advance warning of 'my agenda'. 

Edited Wednesday at 10:40 by 38MC

[TommyD68]

I’ve mentioned it before on here but I think perspective is needed. It wasn’t long ago we’d lost 1 in 9 with a depleted squad and everyone was praising how brilliant Manning and the other coaches had been lately.
 

It’s fine margins, we’ve lost against Sheff Utd and Burnley- games we could have easily got something from. I didn’t see the game last night, but sounds like a similar story.
 

Ultimately we have a mid table squad and realistically we’re about where we should be. I don’t see any reason why Manning should be under pressure. And may I add I’m not a huge manning fan, he doesn’t fill me with excitement and I can’t imagine he does with the players either. But putting that aside, he’s done a pretty decent job so far this season, especially considering the terrible circumstances outside of football.
 

Let’s get the busy festive period behind us and see where we are at the end of it before we start panicking. 

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

It is very weird to the point of obsession, the bloke left over a year ago, can’t believe people go on and on and on about him

No one is going on and on about him. They are however going on and on about the ludicrous decision to derail last season and as a consequence this season too. All in the name of improving our 'top end squad' and give us 'a realistic chance of promotion.'

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, TDarwall said:

Unless we score early, my money is on 0-0 or 1-1.

Think they'll be uber defensive - want a clean sheet above everything else - exactly the sort of oppo we struggle against.

Agree, it will be similar to Birmingham away  last year with Rooney desperate not to lose / concede.

Edited Wednesday at 11:01 by Sir Geoff
Change text

[DaveInSA]

Mmmm.

I like pretty football. But I like more football to be effective and exciting. Effective is executing your plans well. Exciting is having plans that are unexpected. 

It feels like we’re getting better at executing plan A. This is good. But we don’t capitalise on our dominance and we’re too predictable, and have no other plan.

This stubborn pathway of executing plan A better, coupled with the lack of quality in the final third is why we won’t progress under Manning.

The Lansdowns are absolutely amazing at ballsing up opportunity. It’s because they don’t understand football and what it takes to succeed at this level. You absolutely need a strategy. You absolutely need succession planning. You absolutely need to be flexible and adaptable. You absolutely need tactics. You absolutely need to capitalise and strike when the iron is hot - this is the most IMPORTANT part. You must KNOW when momentum is with you.

The most recent time was last summer. We spent 0millions. Fired Pearson (too late or not at all?). Brought in a young coach. Realised he wasn’t what we ordered. Then gave him loads of cash to spend on risky purchases. And nothing’s improved.

And we’re surprised?

 

[Silvio Dante]

38 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

If we compare Manning to Martin (often linked in ideology) - it didn't "work" (in promotion terms - 15th then 10th....) for Swansea but did at (bigger budget) Southampton....You catch my drift.

 

This is a chat myself and @Davefevs have had before. Most managers results are directly proportional to their resources, and the Russell Martin example is a good one. Same way of playing, better players at Soton than Swansea = higher position.

If you take Liams career broadly in the round, he achieved season one what he should have with MK Dons, underachieved season two, broadly in line first half season at Oxford and then overachieved with Oxford (over a small game sample) season two.

With us, he’s probably in line with resources season one and to date - other than aesthetics for some - trending behind season two - certainly when you look at his W/L/D and ppg record.

So, the broad aspect is that he achieves overall either in line or marginally above/below in his resources level. And, harking back to the “acceptance” thread, that probably doesn’t take us out of purgatory. Add in the game management piece where as you go up the leagues you meet better managers and thinking on feet/adapting becomes more important (which I think even his staunchest supporters would agree he struggles with), and it’s difficult to see that he pushes us on from where he found us. I think the IGM will prove his downfall in actually achieving what he and we want to.

As I’ve said, I’m not currently in the “sack him” space where I have been before. I am in the space where I’m really unconvinced he is the manager that gives the ability to outperform resource level which is what we need to make the next step - but, does that make him any different from 90% of managers out there?

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m genuinely in two minds as when we’re good - we’re very good.

I think where I'm at is being concerned that even when we're good, goals are still hard to come by. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

When the OP gets stick for saying Plymouth is must win, through that lens it absolutely is.

If we lose to Plymouth then it will be 3 defeats in a row and 4 defeats in 5. We could be 11 points adrift of the play offs if we lose. It absolutely is a must win in that context.

[Numero Uno]

30 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think where I'm at is being concerned that even when we're good, goals are still hard to come by. 

The criminal error we made in the Summer was not to bring in one forward “for the future” but TWO!! Either that or the Technical Guru genuinely believed either one or both would hit the ground running in which case he’s messed up big time and spent £5m in the process.

Nothing wrong with the performance last night or Saturday but if improved performances don’t lead to goals and points it’s all fur coat and no knickers at the end of the day. If that doesn’t change soon we’re back to same old, same old and recent attendances suggest people are getting a bit pissed with it.

For me it’s not Manning who is under the biggest scrutiny right now, it’s the bloke above him. We are playing half decent football and lacking the cutting edge at the top end. That’s on recruitment.

[Rob k]

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The criminal error we made in the Summer was not to bring in one forward “for the future” but TWO!! Either that or the Technical Guru genuinely believed either one or both would hit the ground running in which case he’s messed up big time and spent £5m in the process.

Nothing wrong with the performance last night or Saturday but if improved performances don’t lead to goals and points it’s all fur coat and no knickers at the end of the day. If that doesn’t change soon we’re back to same old, same old and recent attendances suggest people are getting a bit pissed with it.

For me it’s not Manning who is under the biggest scrutiny right now, it’s the bloke above him. We are playing half decent football and lacking the cutting edge at the top end. That’s on recruitment.

I don’t think either were bought in for the future, they were first and second choice strikers at the beginning of the season and Wells third choice. It’s a balls up. 

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

A couple of very good reasons:

- The average lifespan of a manager at this level is about a season. If they’re going to achieve discernable improvement, typically it happens then. The longest serving manager in the league has had 2 years 2 months, and Manning is 9th on the list.

- The specific circumstances (however bullshitty) about pushing an established squad on

Again, this isn’t a “sack him” post. But a head coach coming into a solid mid table side achieving nothing other than aesthetic improvement in the eyes of some (and regressing in like for like points return) when he’s over the average lifespan of a reign at this level seems at the very least a reasonable debate?

What you said about average lifespan is undoubtedly true, but I hate averages as they don’t give any information on the distribution between the high point and the low point of the thing that’s being measured. The factors that affect the individual points also needs to be considered. Some clubs hire and fire on what seems like a monthly basis, whilst others tend to give managers more time.  Steve Lansdown seems to have a style of his own which defies logic. Throw in the current situation where we have Tinnion and Jon Lansdown and anything can happen. I don’t think they will want to admit they made a mistake so Manning is pretty safe unless relegation looms. Then Steve will fly in from Guernsey and make an executive decision 

[Fuber]

14 hours ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

He’s not going anywhere, sadly. Much like us.

The board let him waste millions in the summer, so can’t let it look like he’s failed. 

Not sure I can blame Manning much.

Game management, sure. Not the best.

However, performances haven't been poor at any point. I was a skeptic earlier in the season but I can see the variation and patterns - a bit of an identity - which is something I was critical of under LJ and in Pearsons early days.

He's being stymied by utterly poor recruitment for the most part, aside from some odd (Roberts at RWB) singular decisions.

Looking at Burnley and Watford, Bird's been on a poor run of form. Armstrong is an utter laughable excuse for a footballer.

The only arguably solid part of the team where I wouldnt change much, injuries aside, is the defence. We're missing McCorie massively.

I'd get rid of Tinnion before Manning, being blunt.

[Fuber]

14 hours ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

Where’s the progress? Virtually identical, if not slightly worse points per game, a powderpuff strike force and a defence that’s gone backwards.

Again not sure we can blame Manning.

Tinnions premise is recruitment. Squarely. At. His. Feet.

[lenred]

28 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I don’t think either were bought in for the future, they were first and second choice strikers at the beginning of the season and Wells third choice. It’s a balls up. 

Well said.  This notion that they were ‘for the future’ is for the birds.   It’s just terrible recruitment.  Pure and simple. 

[LondonBristolian]

I've been critical of Manning in the past and I'm not saying I'm 100% sold now but I don't think it's fair to judge him on 3 narrowing defeats in 4 games against teams that are objectively better resourced and higher rated than us, especially when we've played reasonably across those games and had a good win in the fourth game.

I'm certainly going to judge Manning on results but not necessarily these ones. 

[hinsleburg]

To go back to the original point, I think we assess after the next 6 games which takes us to Boxing Day. I think we need to see progress in terms of results moreso than performance and turning posession into goals and wins. I don't like this back 5 with someone out of position at Wing Back, would rather go with a narrow back 4 and have Vyner RB who has played there before.

I was very Liam out after the Cardiff game, but I do think there's been progress since then which makes it worth sticking with a little longer. I think we need to forget all the nonsense that was spouted by the hierarchy last year and make our own judgements as to where we currently are and where we should be. We didn't have a promotion squad last year and we don't this year either!

Ultimately in my opinion, we're a midtable team playing like a midtable team...

One thing that does give me hope next year is the overall squad, I've said our summer business was odd in a sense of we improved our overall squad but arguably our first 11 is no better. Frustratingly, we've not really exploited that enough with multiple plans and ability to influence the game more tactically and that is something that Liam desperately needs to improve. But I don't think we're a massive overhaul away from being a Top 6 side, think it's now one or two players and that's the first time I've genuinely believed that since we came back up those many years ago... I hope this summer is tweaking and if there are any funds (Semenyo going may help slightly...) would rather we signed less players but sign those who we think are ready. If we can pick up an improvement in goal, and then there's a conversation surrounding strikers. Wells shouldn;t be the answer next season(shouldn't be the answer this one but fair play to him!) so it's whether we think Fally and Sincs are ready or if we need to spend big on a goalscorer. If it's the latter it undermines this window massively!

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Not sure I can blame Manning much.

Game management, sure. Not the best.

However, performances haven't been poor at any point. I was a skeptic earlier in the season but I can see the variation and patterns - a bit of an identity - which is something I was critical of under LJ and in Pearsons early days.

He's being stymied by utterly poor recruitment for the most part, aside from some odd (Roberts at RWB) singular decisions.

Looking at Burnley and Watford, Bird's been on a poor run of form. Armstrong is an utter laughable excuse for a footballer.

The only arguably solid part of the team where I wouldnt change much, injuries aside, is the defence. We're missing McCorie massively.

I'd get rid of Tinnion before Manning, being blunt.

Tbh game management is a huge part of the job and its a common theme with Manning that his in game management is not up to scratch. 

Also totally disagree that performances haven't been poor at any point. Derby? Blackburn? Oxford? MIlwall? Cardiff? Sheff Wed? Etc. 

If you want to believe that playing good at times will lead to long term consistent good performances then I can understand that arguement. 

It's also worth mentioning that Liam is very much involved in the whole recruitment process and ultimately he has the final say so to use the excuse of poor recruitment is not right. If recruitment has been poor then that is also on Liam. 

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It's also worth mentioning that Liam is very much involved in the whole recruitment process and ultimately he has the final say so to use the excuse of poor recruitment is not right. If recruitment has been poor then that is also on Liam. 

This to a large degree. By his own admission Liam is a football anorak and although I can believe he wouldn’t have had huge eyes on Fally, I find it hard to believe a manager at this level wouldn’t have been well versed on Sinclair Armstrong, and Ok’d the signing on the basis he thought SA was someone suitable enough to lead his line.

The alternate is that it was a Daniel Ayala scenario and Liam was told it’s Armstrong or nothing. I’d find that hard to believe in view of how much BT/JL have invested in Liams success.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, 38MC said:

You're wildly barking up the wrong tree. 

I have thawed to Manning probably only in the last few weeks that's the only change. I was a fully fledged signed up member of the NP remorse club along with WSM and all the others. So yes, I would have had the same response 2 years ago when we played Burnley and Sheff Utd and no my agenda has not changed. What has changed is I have seen enough over recent weeks on the pitch, off the pitch (fans forum), and to see the unity in the team, to have a little more patience with Manning. 

If you'd have asked me the thread title's question post Cardiff, I would have said 'sack him today' without one iota of hesitation. So absolutely zero agenda. 

I can walk away from those types of games with 0 points but not be too despondent if we gave a bloody good fight. Looking towards the next 10, Sunderland is probably the only one I would consider a similar 'free hit'. I expect the points to start to accumulate again up to the New Year and will be happy if they do. If they don't then I may start going back to my Cardiff position. 

So there's some advance warning of 'my agenda'. 

There is also WBA Away, similar but difficult.

Sunderland fwiw have stalled a bit, drawing their last 5.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

I don't even know why we're discussing replacing Manning. I don't care about the statistics, I'm not American obsessed with such things. I certainly couldn't give a damn about xG. What I know is that I'm enjoying watching us play again, we have a way of playing that is good on the ball and without the ball we're one of the best sides in the Championship and there is a togetherness about the side. It is not Manning's fault that the officials have been inept or that the forwards keep fluffing their lines. Hirakawa should have buried the clear chance against Burnley and Wells should have scored when played in by Mehmeti last night. In both instances their first touch was appalling. I sincerely hope Liam us, around for some time. 

[Fuber]

32 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Tbh game management is a huge part of the job and its a common theme with Manning that his in game management is not up to scratch. 

Also totally disagree that performances haven't been poor at any point. Derby? Blackburn? Oxford? MIlwall? Cardiff? Sheff Wed? Etc. 

If you want to believe that playing good at times will lead to long term consistent good performances then I can understand that arguement. 

It's also worth mentioning that Liam is very much involved in the whole recruitment process and ultimately he has the final say so to use the excuse of poor recruitment is not right. If recruitment has been poor then that is also on Liam. 

My error, meant to say in the last 10-game run. Only losses have been very close margins.

I'd be a hypocrit if I took a negative view on it as I've previously praised Pearson for the same metrics.

[Roe]

I don't understand the "only lost by a goal" argument when we've lost 3-0 twice this season

Of course most games are tight that's the league in general. We've got a negative goal difference despite equal wins and losses because overall we've lost by more than we've won by

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

It may well be, as I’m not ITK in any way. In general though, I feel it’s not as clear cut as player A or player B is a particular manager’s signing these days. It’s more our multi-year, cross coach strategy is this, we release players that don’t fit that strategy, here are some players that fit that strategy that we’ve been watching for a while and can get, which of them do you want? The coach obviously has a say and a preference, but the options and decision are top down, not bottom up and ultimately the coach signed on for that approach and coaches what they’re given.

Having just typed all that, if we are working bottom up, it explains why we’ve been so all over the place these past few years

Sid, recruitment has changed.  No longer is TC and Clive driving up to Darlington to watch Alan Walsh, it’s process driven, for good and for bad.

Even in the current and recent set-up at City you still have room for doing it differently.  Once Nige had got Sean aligned to what he wanted, he let him get on with it, and then became more involved again in the latter stages, like giving them a live watch himself.

Liam is hands-on virtually all the way through.  He’s getting clips of players that’s are “maybes”.  He’s fully invested, he’s probably a control freak.  That’s not a criticism, he doesn’t want to feel he’s left any stone unturned.  Very admirable too.

But both Nige and Liam will have said “I want this type of player” in most cases.  In some cases they might’ve said “I want a player like Scott Twine, even Scott Twine himself” or “bloody ell Jamo was good against us today, he’s OOC in the summer, let’s see if he’s doable (I had a sneaky chat as he walked off the pitch)”, but even then it would’ve been stacked up against other players in the sausage machine.

So it is bottom-up, just a different bottom-up.

6 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

I share some of your frustrations, but we clearly havent backed manning the same as we backed LJ. Manning was basically given insufficient funds to sign good forwards so has to make do with what he has got given, and then told the expectation is the prem. theres not alot between us, sheff u, burnley and watford, but they have the quality to get the tight win, we dont.

In fairness he had a budget, and he decided how to use it.  See reply below.

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

The criminal error we made in the Summer was not to bring in one forward “for the future” but TWO!! Either that or the Technical Guru genuinely believed either one or both would hit the ground running in which case he’s messed up big time and spent £5m in the process.

Nothing wrong with the performance last night or Saturday but if improved performances don’t lead to goals and points it’s all fur coat and no knickers at the end of the day. If that doesn’t change soon we’re back to same old, same old and recent attendances suggest people are getting a bit pissed with it.

For me it’s not Manning who is under the biggest scrutiny right now, it’s the bloke above him. We are playing half decent football and lacking the cutting edge at the top end. That’s on recruitment.

Once we knew Conway wasn’t staying my view was that you go and get the best striker (of the type you want) you can, and you try to find the development option to run alongside that.  I thought we’d go for a more established striker (still under 25) and used Wells with the other option to learn from.  Your no1 target is your 70% minute man, Wells and Dev Striker share the rest.  That was my thought process.

I thought we might target Cannon, Parrott, Campbell…that ilk of striker.  And then have your succession plan of a player like Max Dean ready in 12 months time…by which point your no1 striker might be looking upwards.

That was my approach.

I thought the no9 they talked so much about wanting was gonna be higher profile that what we got…and I still think both were decent enough signings on paper, and could come good, just not the way Manning sets us up.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I don’t think either were bought in for the future, they were first and second choice strikers at the beginning of the season and Wells third choice. It’s a balls up. 

You couldn’t possibly look at Sinclair Armstrong, who I think has plenty of room for improvement subject to some decent coaching, and think he’s a “here and now” merchant. If the club and staff did that then you are cock on about it being a balls up.

On that point, another frustrating thing for us fans is that the moment that lightbulb switches on in Sinclair’s head he’s a gonner half a season later!!

[LondonBristolian]

31 minutes ago, Roe said:

I don't understand the "only lost by a goal" argument when we've lost 3-0 twice this season

Of course most games are tight that's the league in general. We've got a negative goal difference despite equal wins and losses because overall we've lost by more than we've won by

I suppose the point for me is that the two 3-0s were in back to back games - I think both immediately after losing our key centre-back -  and we've played 12 games since then without those performances being repeated. I'd have totally agreed with sacking Manning after those two games but, as we didn't, I feel I've got to assess on whether I think we've improved since then and I certainly think we have. Obviously if we lost two games by 3-0 again then that would be evidence we had not learned and had not improved but I don't think that is the case. I'd certainly assess Manning at the end of the season if we've not improved our points total and league position but I don't think either the two 3-0 defeats three months ago or the 3 recent narrow defeats against three of the top five are valid reasons for a change at this exact moment in time. 

[RedHienz]

OP - You are so very tedious. Everytime we lose it's a massive over reaction from you, is it the attention of these baiting posts you crave? 

Perhaps get yourself mentally evaluated or take a break, preferably a long one. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

On that point, another frustrating thing for us fans is that the moment that lightbulb switches on in Sinclair’s head he’s a gonner half a season later!!

Contract until 2027, not so sure we need to rush it as much.

Edited Wednesday at 13:51 by Mr Popodopolous

[Superjack]

5 hours ago, TV Tom said:

It is very weird to the point of obsession, the bloke left over a year ago, can’t believe people go on and on and on about him

Speaking for myself, it's not so much an obsession about Nigel Pearson, but rather an obsession about keeping the decision makers accountable for their actions.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Not sure I can blame Manning much.

Game management, sure. Not the best.

However, performances haven't been poor at any point. I was a skeptic earlier in the season but I can see the variation and patterns - a bit of an identity - which is something I was critical of under LJ and in Pearsons early days.

He's being stymied by utterly poor recruitment for the most part, aside from some odd (Roberts at RWB) singular decisions.

Looking at Burnley and Watford, Bird's been on a poor run of form. Armstrong is an utter laughable excuse for a footballer.

The only arguably solid part of the team where I wouldnt change much, injuries aside, is the defence. We're missing McCorie massively.

I'd get rid of Tinnion before Manning, being blunt.

Agree about missing McCrorie but also are without Tanner who has become so dependable.

Also agree with your last sentence. Tinnion and Lansdown junior.

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, cidered abroad said:

Agree about missing McCrorie but also are without Tanner who has become so dependable.

Also agree with your last sentence. Tinnion and Lansdown junior.

Don't think Jon matters as much as long as CEO/DoF is making the football/recruitment decisions.

[W-S-M Seagull]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sid, recruitment has changed.  No longer is TC and Clive driving up to Darlington to watch Alan Walsh, it’s process driven, for good and for bad.

Even in the current and recent set-up at City you still have room for doing it differently.  Once Nige had got Sean aligned to what he wanted, he let him get on with it, and then became more involved again in the latter stages, like giving them a live watch himself.

Liam is hands-on virtually all the way through.  He’s getting clips of players that’s are “maybes”.  He’s fully invested, he’s probably a control freak.  That’s not a criticism, he doesn’t want to feel he’s left any stone unturned.  Very admirable too.

But both Nige and Liam will have said “I want this type of player” in most cases.  In some cases they might’ve said “I want a player like Scott Twine, even Scott Twine himself” or “bloody ell Jamo was good against us today, he’s OOC in the summer, let’s see if he’s doable (I had a sneaky chat as he walked off the pitch)”, but even then it would’ve been stacked up against other players in the sausage machine.

So it is bottom-up, just a different bottom-up.

In fairness he had a budget, and he decided how to use it.  See reply below.

Once we knew Conway wasn’t staying my view was that you go and get the best striker (of the type you want) you can, and you try to find the development option to run alongside that.  I thought we’d go for a more established striker (still under 25) and used Wells with the other option to learn from.  Your no1 target is your 70% minute man, Wells and Dev Striker share the rest.  That was my thought process.

I thought we might target Cannon, Parrott, Campbell…that ilk of striker.  And then have your succession plan of a player like Max Dean ready in 12 months time…by which point your no1 striker might be looking upwards.

That was my approach.

I thought the no9 they talked so much about wanting was gonna be higher profile that what we got…and I still think both were decent enough signings on paper, and could come good, just not the way Manning sets us up.

And this is why I reject any comments of "its not his fault Tinnion has recruited badly" 

On the identification and scouting side Liam is probably far more involved than Tinnion is. 

Liam has his hands all over recruitment so alongside his ability to coach his recruits, he should also be judged on the signings he has made 

[Shauntaylor85]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

If we lose to Plymouth then it will be 3 defeats in a row and 4 defeats in 5. We could be 11 points adrift of the play offs if we lose. It absolutely is a must win in that context.

If we lose to Plymouth then the pressure needs to be on him. No excuses!!

[Phantom]

6 hours ago, Superjack said:

Speaking for myself, it's not so much an obsession about Nigel Pearson, but rather an obsession about keeping the decision makers accountable for their actions.

Out of interest how long do you think you will hold them accountable? 

What will be a trigger point for you to move on? 

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And this is why I reject any comments of "its not his fault Tinnion has recruited badly" 

On the identification and scouting side Liam is probably far more involved than Tinnion is. 

Liam has his hands all over recruitment so alongside his ability to coach his recruits, he should also be judged on the signings he has made 

Has this actually been confirmed, or just your opinion? 

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Out of interest how long do you think you will hold them accountable? 

What will be a trigger point for you to move on? 

Has this actually been confirmed, or just your opinion? 

They should always be accountable, should they not?

[W-S-M Seagull]

11 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Out of interest how long do you think you will hold them accountable? 

What will be a trigger point for you to move on? 

Has this actually been confirmed, or just your opinion? 

@Davefevs spoke about it above. Its all public information that has been said in various interviews with various different people. 

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Has this actually been confirmed, or just your opinion? 

Liam talked about the recruitment team constantly sending him clips to review of prospective players.  He says he’s heavily involved.  Tinnion says they meet most weeks and as the window gets nearer every week to discuss players and they all sit around the table, and amazingly (sorry cynical comment) they always agree.  

Edited Wednesday at 20:53 by Davefevs

[Supersonic Robin]

14 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

I share some of your frustrations, but we clearly havent backed manning the same as we backed LJ. Manning was basically given insufficient funds to sign good forwards so has to make do with what he has got given, and then told the expectation is the prem. theres not alot between us, sheff u, burnley and watford, but they have the quality to get the tight win, we dont.

He spent somewhere between £7m - £10m on Twine, Mayulu, and Armstrong (plus Yu and Earthy on loan).

If we lacked funds to sign a good striker, IMO it's due to our decisions to:

A) Spend a whopping £4m on Twine
B) Divide our budget for a striker between 2 players, each taking about 50% of that budget

[BeggyBlaggers]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sid, recruitment has changed.  No longer is TC and Clive driving up to Darlington to watch Alan Walsh, it’s process driven, for good and for bad.

Even in the current and recent set-up at City you still have room for doing it differently.  Once Nige had got Sean aligned to what he wanted, he let him get on with it, and then became more involved again in the latter stages, like giving them a live watch himself.

Liam is hands-on virtually all the way through.  He’s getting clips of players that’s are “maybes”.  He’s fully invested, he’s probably a control freak.  That’s not a criticism, he doesn’t want to feel he’s left any stone unturned.  Very admirable too.

But both Nige and Liam will have said “I want this type of player” in most cases.  In some cases they might’ve said “I want a player like Scott Twine, even Scott Twine himself” or “bloody ell Jamo was good against us today, he’s OOC in the summer, let’s see if he’s doable (I had a sneaky chat as he walked off the pitch)”, but even then it would’ve been stacked up against other players in the sausage machine.

So it is bottom-up, just a different bottom-up.

In fairness he had a budget, and he decided how to use it.  See reply below.

Once we knew Conway wasn’t staying my view was that you go and get the best striker (of the type you want) you can, and you try to find the development option to run alongside that.  I thought we’d go for a more established striker (still under 25) and used Wells with the other option to learn from.  Your no1 target is your 70% minute man, Wells and Dev Striker share the rest.  That was my thought process.

I thought we might target Cannon, Parrott, Campbell…that ilk of striker.  And then have your succession plan of a player like Max Dean ready in 12 months time…by which point your no1 striker might be looking upwards.

That was my approach.

I thought the no9 they talked so much about wanting was gonna be higher profile that what we got…and I still think both were decent enough signings on paper, and could come good, just not the way Manning sets us up.

Dane scarlett was another i thought would be suitable.....surprised oxford managed to get him on loan

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, BeggyBlaggers said:

Dane scarlett was another i thought would be suitable.....surprised oxford managed to get him on loan

As I keep saying, I’m a sucker for a young player with pedigree who’s had a shit loan or two.  Scarlett, Pompey and Ipswich fits my “sucker-list” perfectly.

[tin]

1 hour ago, Superjack said:

They should always be accountable, should they not?

Exactly this. They’re the custodians of the club. If they’d done good things, they’d have earned praise. If they do shit things, they should be accountable just like any other business with stakeholders.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Superjack said:

They should always be accountable, should they not?

They said last season "we've made the change now to give us the best possible chance of success this season"

Now we know that was bs, but that's the reason they gave so I'll hold them to account for that every time now or in the future where our season is almost over in November. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

We’re just starting to form a decent team. 
Don’t rip up and start again. 
We have been playing well of late. We were unlucky at Watford (read the Watford fans comments). 
 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

We’re just starting to form a decent team. 
Don’t rip up and start again. 
We have been playing well of late. We were unlucky at Watford (read the Watford fans comments). 
 

Certainly not Manning out but it seems like we need to get on a bit of a run at some point.

We are playing quite well, Top 10 to elements of midtable but at the same time, not winning back to back will see us get nowhere.

[Solent Robin]

So here is the thing, us fans may be stakeholders but we are not shareholders. Whilst we as customers can voice our opinions, we are not in a position to hold the organisation and its management to account. Individual customers may raise concerns (complaints) but it is only when there is a significant strength of feeling resulting in a drop in sales, that the owners take note. If a customer survey was held you would see a diverse set of views on the product (as per OTIB), which again is not going to influence the owners. I make no apology for talking in business language, as taking the passion of football out of the equation, this is the reality. However, it does make for good debate on a Forum!

Also if you are being critical of Tinnions recruitment then it needs to also recognise the good signings as well e.g. Dickie, Knight, Bird. Other signings have had injuries which have reduced their impact e.g. McCrorie, Twine. Yu has shown his potential but is still adjusting. McNally looks solid having now settled in. McGuane may also be astute given his performances to date. The strikers may be a different story but it is still relatively early days and not an easy pond to fish in. However, as I said in the transfer thread not every signing will be a success  (75% at most), so on that basis I think the recruitment has been decent. Unfortunately, proven goal scorers are out of our financial reach. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

Recruitment is a collective, it’s not Tinnion’s recruitment, nor Manning’s, good or bad, it’s a group of people involved.  Currently that’s mainly LM, BT, SG as the Heads of Function, with finance support from TR.  the responsibility and accountability sits across the 3 of them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, Solent Robin said:

but it is only when there is a significant strength of feeling resulting in a drop in sales, that the owners take note.

The Attendances v Burnley and Sheffield United were far from encouraging tbh, both tickets sold and the % sold showing up.  The Burnley game too a Saturday with £15 Member Tickets, first Game Post International Break! Both v sides among the favourites to go (back) up.

Sorry to cherry pick, I agree with chunks of your post- Tanner, Dickie, Knight, Bird, Sykes, Yu all good. Increasingly McNally and McGuane too.

Then the injuries as you say, good signs yet injuries for one or both of McCrorie, Roberts. 

Atkinson and Naismith both good players, both horribly hit by injuries especially the former. Tbis is just off the top of my head.

Twine the jury feels very much out IMO. Price tag, injuries and best position for the team..hmm.

Mehmeti and Cornick have their good and bad points, but didn't cost the earth. Earthy it would be good to see more of in his preferred role.

[Solent Robin]

It will be interesting at the end of the season to see if there has been a fall in attendances across the championship as a result of the increased live Sky  coverage. The weather obviously affected the Burnley game and mid week is more difficult for some. I don't sense a mass desertion of fans due to performances and results.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Solent Robin said:

It will be interesting at the end of the season to see if there has been a fall in attendances across the championship as a result of the increased live Sky  coverage. The weather obviously affected the Burnley game and mid week is more difficult for some. I don't sense a mass desertion of fans due to performances and results.

It’s already down like for like with last season across the Champ, and that’s on published attendances.  It’s also clear from scanning around our ground that actual bums on seats is down too.  Would imagine that’s the same across the league.  Chsmpionship is not too much down if you compare the 18 clubs who were in Champ this season and last, less than 1k average overall.  City are down c900, so fairly in line.

The first question is whether the increased revenue from the TV Deal is “worth it” financially. We won’t really get a true marker for that this season as people bought season tickets without really appreciating the impact of dates and times of games.  Next season’s season tickets sales will give us a better indication (if they are sold on a like for like basis).

I suspect a lot of people but their season tickets sales will expecting to use it most of the 23 home games.  There’s probably a price point where you sanity check the reality of how many games you’ve attended this season against the cost and that influences whether you continue you do so.

If we retain sales numbers like this season, fair play, that’s double-bubble.

The secondary question is whether “lost fans” in terms of those attending matches at AG is actually something to be bothered about.  Less / no sellouts means no real need to look at things like home fans in the Atyeo for example.  Do we want to grow our home attendances?

There shouldn’t be any desertion because of results, we are in the same part of the league table to last year!

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There shouldn’t be any desertion because of results, we are in the same part of the league table to last year!

It will be interesting to see what will happen to attendances if we continue to move further away from the play offs. Cold weather etc etc. 

[FNQ]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

It will be interesting to see what will happen to attendances if we continue to move further away from the play offs. Cold weather etc etc. 

Results are obviously the main driver for good attendances, but I also think there is a ‘feel good’ factor too. At Stoke we let in two quick and poor goals, didn’t win but managed to draw and for me at the time it was what watching Bristol City should all be about.. Hoggy had the team and fans buzzing. Since then we’ve had some really tough home games but we’re still playing much better than we were up until and including the Cardiff game. However if performances drop, Twiney plays at any cost etc. and we gradually morph back into our old drab traits then the colder weather will definitely impact attendances.

[Sir Geoff]

14 hours ago, Phantom said:

Out of interest how long do you think you will hold them accountable? 

What will be a trigger point for you to move on? 

Has this actually been confirmed, or just your opinion? 

For me personally the trigger point will be when JL publicly apologises to fans for sacking a popular manager after not backing him properly in the summer leading up to the sacking. Admits he got the recruitment of the next manager wrong for the style of play he espoused. Then says he was poorly advised and has asked BT to resign.

Never gonna happen so I personally will continue to hold him to account until the day he leaves our football club.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Solent Robin said:

It will be interesting at the end of the season to see if there has been a fall in attendances across the championship as a result of the increased live Sky  coverage. The weather obviously affected the Burnley game and mid week is more difficult for some. I don't sense a mass desertion of fans due to performances and results.

Yeah this I agree on, the impact on attendances as a whole..it seems down at most except perhaps Leeds. Coventry and Sunderland could be 2 others.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

There shouldn’t be any desertion because of results, we are in the same part of the league table to last year!

..........................some people are getting bored with it.

[Sniper]

14 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

He spent somewhere between £7m - £10m on Twine, Mayulu, and Armstrong (plus Yu and Earthy on loan).

If we lacked funds to sign a good striker, IMO it's due to our decisions to:

A) Spend a whopping £4m on Twine
B) Divide our budget for a striker between 2 players, each taking about 50% of that budget

Spot on there SR. You just have to look at say Lath @Boro, he was around the 5 Million mark, so we should have gone for one striker like that, and not the 2 we got instead.

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Spot on there SR. You just have to look at say Lath @Boro, he was around the 5 Million mark, so we should have gone for one striker like that, and not the 2 we got instead.

The only small defence I would offer is that until such time as Scott was sold us going big for £5m wasn't altogether feasible- we had to be a bit careful IMO.

Once Scott went we had to spend a bit more, move to the next level agreed.  That was FFP effectively passed until Summer 2026 barring disastrous spending plans.

[Spike]

On 27/11/2024 at 08:39, TV Tom said:

It is very weird to the point of obsession, the bloke left over a year ago, can’t believe people go on and on and on about him

I find it odd that people think it's weird, we still talk about Lee Johnson and he's been gone for four 4 and a half years. Pearson came in, took a club with financial issues and relegation concerns and turned it around and got us competing only to be sacked, off course fans will mention him and use him as a comparison, he was given next to nothing to work with and turned our finances around whilst improving results. He also developed youth players, something I'm not seeing since he left. 

I think if anything it's weird that people are surprised the fans liked him and were outraged he was sacked, I know a lot of my mates and myself wouldn't be half as disappointed if Manning was replaced. For all the good Manning has done we've not improved results, we're not bringing in the youth anymore and we've spent more with nothing to show for it, why wouldn't he be compared to Pearson? 

[tin]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The secondary question is whether “lost fans” in terms of those attending matches at AG is actually something to be bothered about.  Less / no sellouts means no real need to look at things like home fans in the Atyeo for example.  Do we want to grow our home attendances?

There shouldn’t be any desertion because of results, we are in the same part of the league table to last year!

Most people I speak to are in their  40s and are staying away for now and that’s nothing to do with the TV deal. 

When you think about it, this age group has to be one of the most success-starved demographics in the top two divisions, and they’ve had to put up with the Lansdowns rinse and repeat approach for more than half their lives.

It’s easy to understand while their love for BCFC remains, apathy has set in. The way the board handled events last year didn’t help either. 

[Silvio Dante]

24 minutes ago, Spike said:

I find it odd that people think it's weird, we still talk about Lee Johnson and he's been gone for four 4 and a half years. Pearson came in, took a club with financial issues and relegation concerns and turned it around and got us competing only to be sacked, off course fans will mention him and use him as a comparison, he was given next to nothing to work with and turned our finances around whilst improving results. He also developed youth players, something I'm not seeing since he left. 

I think if anything it's weird that people are surprised the fans liked him and were outraged he was sacked, I know a lot of my mates and myself wouldn't be half as disappointed if Manning was replaced. For all the good Manning has done we've not improved results, we're not bringing in the youth anymore and we've spent more with nothing to show for it, why wouldn't he be compared to Pearson? 

Indeed. Or on a simpler basis, if people believe Liam has done well/improved on prior, it’s common sense that you have to have something to compare to. Otherwise it’s an opinion with no baseline, which is frankly nonsense.

[redsquirrel]

as for waiting for it to click, im now comparing it to stevie wonder doing a rubik cube.  'click click click,is that it?'

[Numero Uno]

52 minutes ago, tin said:

Most people I speak to are in their  40s and are staying away for now and that’s nothing to do with the TV deal. 

When you think about it, this age group has to be one of the most success-starved demographics in the top two divisions, and they’ve had to put up with the Lansdowns rinse and repeat approach for more than half their lives.

It’s easy to understand while their love for BCFC remains, apathy has set in. The way the board handled events last year didn’t help either. 

The big problem we have is sketchy home form over a considerable period of time. The chances of turning up at the Gate and seeing a City win are far too low atm. It is entirely understandable with crap kick off times added in that some will just decide it ain’t worth the effort to watch us lose when we play a quality side or draw with sides like Sheffield Wednesday and Cardiff that come for a draw.

Liam really needs to improve that home form starting Saturday against a team that got pumped in the week. The issue is many of us have an inkling of what might happen instead. Unless you go home and away you don’t pay your money, give up your time and see us win that often.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

On 26/11/2024 at 23:55, SODS_LAW said:

It takes time? We are playing good football look organised and solid. figure out the last bit and we will start to fly! It’s the hardest bit tho!!

actually unbelievable if you can’t see the difference between this time last year, 1st time in years we look like a good football team. 

 

 

No point in being a good football team, if no one can put the ball in the net when on top.  The summer transfer deals didn't obtain a decent Championship striker, instead the funds were used to buy ones for the so called future. With Wells possibly being in his last season, this should have been a priority. It's pretty obvious that Sinclair and Fally are nowhere near Championship standard and therefore lies the rub. Every one knows that the January market is notorious for having to pay top dollar for any good players, especially a striker, so SL will never do that, then imo it looks like it's going to be another mid table finish for us and not the higher half either. It's such a shame as the roots are there for a PO position, but once again a good investment did't happen.

[BCFC31]

On 26/11/2024 at 21:40, Shauntaylor85 said:

Sorry but time is running out for me….where are the results? 7 points off play offs now, look wanting versus anyone remotely decent. Centre forwards are probably at an all time low in our championship era this time around. Fail to see this team taking us any further than Nige did. Incredibly frustrating and we just cannot shake off this mid table tag.
 

What’s going to give? We must win the next two games. No excuse v those two who have been exceptionally poor. If we don’t get six points then major questions need to be asked of Manning and Tinnion. Our summer recruitment for the forward line has really cost us, what a waste is the Scott funds. 

Not sure why people are putting palm face emojis? your absolutely spot on to be pissed off as once again we slide down the table and in to mid table mediocrity. And on the back of once again selling off our main talent and top scorer and going back around in circles.  However I don't think the blame fully lays at mannings door. We have a very amateur job for the boys mentality behind the scenes at the club  that lack any real structure and important designated skill sets within proper usufull job roles. It's abit like politics in the country.  Recruitment has always been a real bug bare of mine at the club, if we had not completely ballsed up the striker Recruitment not once in the summer but twice we would be finishing our chances and probably be sat in the play offs now. It just comes down to poor running of the club for example... why keep buying projects ? Havent we done enough of that ? Is the club only interested in cashing in ? Whst about bringing in ready made players to compliment the knights and dickies or this world ?? Look at the set up fown there we have  no CEO no proper head of Recruitment a shambolic medical department an owner who's lost all interest and a son who sits on the chair of the board with his crayons doing god knows what just living comfortably off daddy's money. They do not like to be challenged or held accountable for anything like i said its like a politician The club is screaming out for new ownership imo it's gone incredibly stale and it's painful turning up just to know how our season will pan out season after season while your brentfords, burnleys lutons bournmouths etc of the world over take us and frankly make us look stupid.

Edited Thursday at 13:09 by BCFC31