How long do we give Manning….we keep waiting for it to click….

[Davefevs]

56 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

And if he gets injured??...no one else here is battle hardened.

Cornick.

You makes yer choices in the summer.  Toughski Shitski, get on with it and coach the ones you have better.

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Are you not describing Sir Nahki of Wells?

Yes but he can’t do it all on his own. 

[Solent Robin]

That was when Pring was LB in a back four which left a gap in front of him. With WB's that would give Twine the freedom to play more centrally nearer to the striker. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Solent Robin said:

That was when Pring was LB in a back four which left a gap in front of him. With WB's that would give Twine the freedom to play more centrally nearer to the striker. 

2 vs 1 in wide areas, most Championship sides go Back 4 and Wide player..I'd be enjoying the space and opportunity to bypass or go 2 v 1.

Would it be a 3-5-1-1? If a 3-4-2-1 with two 10s, if one is Bird that can at least negate somewhat the 3 v 2 in midfield as he can drop back.

Who goes RWB in the absence of McCrorie and Sykes especially.

Edited Friday at 15:23 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Solent Robin said:

That was when Pring was LB in a back four which left a gap in front of him. With WB's that would give Twine the freedom to play more centrally nearer to the striker. 

It was the gap he left behind him trying to cover the gap in front of him that was the problem!

(not his fault btw)

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Cornick.

You makes yer choices in the summer.  Toughski Shitski, get on with it and coach the ones you have better.

I understand what your saying -

Although silk purse & sows ear comes to mind

[Tecknical Director]

 

[Fjmcity]

1 minute ago, Tecknical Director said:

 

Eagerly awaiting today’s post game thread. May be waiting some time 

[maxjak]

How long do we give Manning?...............To all you kneejerkers out there...........I think a little bit longer?

[Malago]

@Shauntaylor85

Having a bit of a day off today are we sunshine?

[MC RISK77]

Embarrassing thread 

[REDOXO]

Love it here. People giving it large about other people giving it large after we beat the worst team I’ve seen in a long time. 
 

Still as the man said you can only beat what’s in front of you. We did. Excellent! Hopefully we can beat Portsmouth and Sunderland. Well done our boys!

[BCFC31]

On 28/11/2024 at 18:18, Natchfever said:

Do you think he reacts well to opposition coaches half time tweaks though?

I dont which is why im not so sure he is able to take the theory wholly into practice.

Academic as he is going nowhere, and after what he has suffered, I cant think many wouldnt want him to see out the season at least.

I could be wrong of course on that point.

Not really but he isn't the finisher article otherwise Mr manning wouldn't be with us I'd imagine he would be managing a Premier leauge side 

[Shauntaylor85]

2 hours ago, Malago said:

@Shauntaylor85

Having a bit of a day off today are we sunshine?

I had a great day at AG today thanks, aside from a frustrating first half of no end product, Yu and Mehmeti are both frustrating players it has to be said, probably why they are here and not at Burnley or Sheff Utd I suppose. They were the worst side I’ve seen us play since our return to the championship so I will groan (as I like to moan) that we only scored 4 against a terrible side. Onwards and upwards, as I said we had to win today and v Pompey. We haven’t won back to back games all season so now is time to go on a run! 

Edited Saturday at 19:28 by Shauntaylor85

[KegCity]

Just now, Shauntaylor85 said:

I had a great day at AG today thanks, aside from a frustrating first half of no product. They were the worse side I’ve seen us play since our return to the championship so I will groan (as I like to moan) that we only scored 4 against a terrible side. Onwards and upwards, as I said we had to win today and v Pompey. We haven’t won back to back games all season so now is time to go on a run! 

Unlucky mate hopefully have something to moan about next week, up the city!

[Ivorguy]

45 minutes ago, BCFC31 said:

Not really but he isn't the finisher article otherwise Mr manning wouldn't be with us I'd imagine he would be managing a Premier leauge side 

Like our last manager had!

[Port Said Red]

I know that it's all about opinions and the op clearly has a hankering for his favourite Manager, but the way things get wriggled around to try to make a case for not making a change in the first place, is almost painful to watch.

Just to pick out a couple of things. 

I don't like polls generally, but I would love to see one that tells us how many people genuinely think we played better football under Pearson. Even when coming up short in the last couple of games, I still think we are playing better football than I have seen for some years, and interesting that the opposition Managers are full of praise for us too.

Then there's the suggestion that it's only the money that was spent in the Summer that has allowed Manning to match Pearson's record, whilst at the same time criticising the recruitment team for weakening our striker options. Either he has a better squad or he doesn't in my opinion. 

Finally, it's worth noting the reaction at the ground, even after the recent defeats, is not reflected in the negative posts on here.

 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I know that it's all about opinions and the op clearly has a hankering for his favourite Manager, but the way things get wriggled around to try to make a case for not making a change in the first place, is almost painful to watch.

Just to pick out a couple of things. 

I don't like polls generally, but I would love to see one that tells us how many people genuinely think we played better football under Pearson. Even when coming up short in the last couple of games, I still think we are playing better football than I have seen for some years, and interesting that the opposition Managers are full of praise for us too.

Then there's the suggestion that it's only the money that was spent in the Summer that has allowed Manning to match Pearson's record, whilst at the same time criticising the recruitment team for weakening our striker options. Either he has a better squad or he doesn't in my opinion. 

Finally, it's worth noting the reaction at the ground, even after the recent defeats, is not reflected in the negative posts on here.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

And I think “played better” for most is only concerned with the “attacking” side of the game, whereas I think it’s both sides of the game that counts.  So I judge on both sides of the game.

I’m certainly enjoying the intent of the last 6-8 games, it’s much easier on the eye.

So, as for your poll, are you taking Manning overall, a one-off game, or a recent batch.  It really depends on the “scope” of the poll.

FWIW, we had spells under Pearson I thought were good, but I’m not sure they’re wholly comparable.  Some of the WSM stuff was sublime for example, power, pace, etc.

=====

Manning has a deeper squad, that is undisputed.  Is it better, that is all too subjective.

Edited Saturday at 20:09 by Davefevs

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I had a great day at AG today thanks, aside from a frustrating first half of no end product, Yu and Mehmeti are both frustrating players it has to be said, probably why they are here and not at Burnley or Sheff Utd I suppose. They were the worst side I’ve seen us play since our return to the championship so I will groan (as I like to moan) that we only scored 4 against a terrible side. Onwards and upwards, as I said we had to win today and v Pompey. We haven’t won back to back games all season so now is time to go on a run! 

This is a very valid point that even the most ardent backers of Manning cannot deny. In 1936, Arbroath FC beat Bon Accord 36 - 0. And of course, in Arbroath FC, were talking about a team that have never even played in the English Championship, and yet they've gone and won 36 - 0. Now Liam Manning can't get a team to score 36 goals and yet people someone how claim he is a Championship level manager. Ridiculous. 

Either we win each of the next eight games by 36 goals, or Manning has to be seen as as disaster. 

Edited Saturday at 20:57 by LondonBristolian

[REDOXO]

12 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

This is a very valid point that even the most ardent backers of Manning cannot deny. In 1936, Arbroath FC beat Bon Accord 36 - 0. And of course, in Arbroath FC, were talking about a team that have never even played in the English Championship, and yet they've gone and won 36 - 0. Now Liam Manning can't get a team to score 36 goals and yet people someone how claim he is a Championship level manager. Ridiculous. 

Either we win each of the next eight games by 36 goals, or Manning has to be seen as as disaster. 

I read your post and started humming the music to Opening Time! Have a great evening.  

[Natchfever]

19 hours ago, BCFC31 said:

Not really but he isn't the finisher article otherwise Mr manning wouldn't be with us I'd imagine he would be managing a Premier leauge side 

In my opinion a manager shouldnt be "work in progress".

Plenty of managers at our level who are the finished article who wont manage a premier league side.

[Red Skin]

2 hours ago, Natchfever said:

In my opinion a manager shouldnt be "work in progress".

Plenty of managers at our level who are the finished article who wont manage a premier league side.

Almost every manager has failed at some club and got the sack.   There is no such things as the finished article.  Even Pep, who is probably the best manager in the world, would say he's still learning. 

We can't afford to recruit players that are the 'finished article' and the same goes for recruiting managers.  Even if we could afford them, they probably wouldn't come due to other constraints they'd have to work under.  

[W-S-M Seagull]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Manning has a deeper squad, that is undisputed.

And despite this we are still on the exact same amount of points as last season from the same amount of games. 

I'm not saying we should sack Manning but with that extra investment and extra depth, progress by means of points on the board does need to happen. 

We do have an opportunity to push ourselves ahead of last seasons totals over the next few games but then also last season we did win 3 games in a row around Christmas time so ultimately, I just see it as all being quite samey. 

[redkev]

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And despite this we are still on the exact same amount of points as last season from the same amount of games. 

I'm not saying we should sack Manning but with that extra investment and extra depth, progress by means of points on the board does need to happen. 

We do have an opportunity to push ourselves ahead of last seasons totals over the next few games but then also last season we did win 3 games in a row around Christmas time so ultimately, I just see it as all being quite samey. 

I’m no manning lover , however the seeds of growth & improvement are all there to see ( unless you are a number of certain posters on here ) the points situation maybe be similar but the standard of performance has improved a great deal over the last 2 months , getting rid of manning would be madness at the moment - you also need to remember a change doesn’t guarantee success 

[W-S-M Seagull]

18 minutes ago, redkev said:

I’m no manning lover , however the seeds of growth & improvement are all there to see ( unless you are a number of certain posters on here ) the points situation maybe be similar but the standard of performance has improved a great deal over the last 2 months , getting rid of manning would be madness at the moment - you also need to remember a change doesn’t guarantee success 

We’ve seen seeds of growth before, both last season and the season before, but ultimately, it just ends up being samey. We put in some good performances (and fail to score), then follow it up with a Cardiff-like performance. We need to continue putting in consistently good performances and more importantly, turn those performances into points, which would show real improvement from last season.

I agree, I wouldn’t get rid of Manning right now, but regardless of Manning, we as a club need to start delivering more points. Right now, we're still getting the same number of points with better resources, and that is a concern however I fully understand the arguement that consistent performances can lead to consistent long term improvements in terms of points and league positions. 

[mozo]

27 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

And despite this we are still on the exact same amount of points as last season from the same amount of games. 

I'm not saying we should sack Manning but with that extra investment and extra depth, progress by means of points on the board does need to happen. 

We do have an opportunity to push ourselves ahead of last seasons totals over the next few games but then also last season we did win 3 games in a row around Christmas time so ultimately, I just see it as all being quite samey. 

I think to answer the title of the thread, as well as your points comparison, the answer is to give Manning the rest of the season to see if he can deliver. There's no point getting excited if we win two in a row, or booing if we lose two in a row. He's earned the season, so let's see if he can take us forward between now and May.

[Natchfever]

1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

Almost every manager has failed at some club and got the sack.   There is no such things as the finished article.  Even Pep, who is probably the best manager in the world, would say he's still learning. 

We can't afford to recruit players that are the 'finished article' and the same goes for recruiting managers.  Even if we could afford them, they probably wouldn't come due to other constraints they'd have to work under.  

With players who are developing you can rest them or manage the minutes they play.

No such opportunities for an inexperienced manager which is why I dont favour them.

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

I'm a bit concerned about an obesity crisis with all the humble pie being consumed on here

[The turtle]

On 30/11/2024 at 20:44, Port Said Red said:

Either he has a better squad or he doesn't in my opinion. 

It's more than fair to say has a better squad but question forward recruitment.

The squad across the board is better.

Fact is you could play; mcguane, bird, twine as a midfield. That's significant turnover in one season 

Defence has more quality depth, midfield has more quality depth.

The issue is - forward options. Up till now, it has been somewhat disappointing. Wells wasn't the plan, to be the main man at this point.

When you consider; twine is finding his feet, Yu shows promise, but had dropped off recently; jury is out on fally and Armstrong.

It's why it's not as easy as black and white. Good work has been done in most areas of the pitch.

But it's in forward area where doubts remain. And it's in forward areas where success this season*** will be decided.

[Mr Popodopolous]

44 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

I'm a bit concerned about an obesity crisis with all the humble pie being consumed on here

Yesterday was great but we are yet to win back to back games, this is the next big landmark.

Depends what the expectations this season should be, would be as well.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We do have an opportunity to push ourselves ahead of last seasons totals over the next few games but then also last season we did win 3 games in a row around Christmas time so ultimately, I just see it as all being quite samey. 

2 hours ago, redkev said:

I’m no manning lover , however the seeds of growth & improvement are all there to see ( unless you are a number of certain posters on here ) the points situation maybe be similar but the standard of performance has improved a great deal over the last 2 months , getting rid of manning would be madness at the moment - you also need to remember a change doesn’t guarantee success 

For me it is all about trajectory and the both the singular trajectory of performances or results as well as the combo of both.

I said this at the break, what would we see, a continued upward trajectory from a semi-low point pre-Boro or go backwards, or stay “samey”.  Result results wise we’ve returned 1 win and 2 defeats (3 points from 3 games), but I’ve been pretty happy with all 3 performances taking into account the relevant opposition in each of the three games…ie upward trajectory being maintained in performances if not results per se.

I don't think anyone is really thinking of getting rid of Manning (nor do they have a say in such matters).

What we need is avoiding one game knee-jerk in either direction.

I think the mood after two defeats was pretty placid, because people get 1) it was Burnley and we played pretty well and 2) it was Watford and we again played pretty well, first half especially…and they came off the back of Norwich.

And I think we need to divorce critique of individual players, in several cases justified imho, from team.  I honestly don’t see what is wrong in praising team performances whilst critiquing say Armstrong and Mayulu, who’ve not been hugely contributing to the team.  If that makes sense.

 

Edited Sunday at 20:28 by Davefevs

[bpexile]

On 29/11/2024 at 04:18, BCFC31 said:

we should of signed at least 1 here and now striker and maybe 1 project we didn't do that

Exactly   

[bpexile]

On 29/11/2024 at 06:06, Davefevs said:

“You’re not sure” - as in you think we have seen some man-management issues, ie favourites?  If so, then I’m on the fence / not concluded yet, but the fact that I’ve raised it, means I have doubts.  I’m just constantly observing.

I have more of a general gripe Dave, it's that LM constantly talks up Harry C as a top pro who works his socks off & sets such a great example to the others but refuses to even give him a run when we are so obviously needing something in front of goal.

I'm not anti LM (just those above him), I dearly want him to succeed, especially after all he & his family have been through but just cannot see his reasoning re Harry C.

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I have more of a general gripe Dave, it's that LM constantly talks up Harry C as a top pro who works his socks off & sets such a great example to the others but refuses to even give him a run when we are so obviously needing something in front of goal.

I'm not anti LM (just those above him), I dearly want him to succeed, especially after all he & his family have been through but just cannot see his reasoning re Harry C.

What would you prefer he says when asked about Cornick ?

[bpexile]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

What would you prefer he says when asked about Cornick ?

Its not about what I would like said, I just don't understand making statements like that & not giving the guy a chance to prove himself.

[The Happy Farmer]

I am a cup half full type of person I know our owners don’t always get things right  I would not have sacked n p   But in my opinion we are very lucky to have them I am not sure about l m yet but he must be given time and I am sure he will 

[Red Skin]

54 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Its not about what I would like said, I just don't understand making statements like that & not giving the guy a chance to prove himself.

I like the guy, but I think Cornick has had plenty of chances.  Raw and frustrating Armstrong and Mayulu are, we need to persist with them for the time-being.  

[Rudolf Hucker]

54 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Its not about what I would like said, I just don't understand making statements like that & not giving the guy a chance to prove himself.

LM stated the HC had the opportunity to leave in the summer but decided to remain, presumably because his Bristolian partner had just had their first child? 
 

LM has been very complimentary about HC’s attitude to training but it’s clear, to me, that he doesn’t see Harry as a part of his plan thus, whilst taking a regular seat on the bench, he won’t get on the pitch unless something unforeseen occurs. I don’t have a problem with that. HC is looking after his family, first and foremost. LM is looking after the best interests of his team and of the players he’s recruited to be the future. 
 

Nobody has made mistakes here imo. 

[Solent Robin]

I am intrigued by this more experienced manager argument Natch.  Not convinced that NP would be doing better at this stage but we will never know. What other experienced managers are you talking about? Many championship clubs have opted for foreign managers but most of them are not championship experienced and only a few have excelled having been poached after gaining that experience. Ex pros like Rooney and Lampard are not really cutting it. There are certain more experienced managers that do the rounds e.g. Alex Neil, who are not likely to make the difference. Ex-premier league managers tend to want a big budget e.g. Parker. That doesn't leave much option other than a manager from the lower leagues or young coaches making their way in the game. McKenna has shown what can be achieved with an inexperienced manager. IMO LM has good coaching credentials from his earlier career and gained some managerial experience at MK Don's and Oxford. Is he still learning yes, but you should never stop learning as a manager as Pep once said. Mourinho is no longer the special one because imo he stopped learning. LM is clearly very driven and obsessive in his preparation. He is adaptable formation and system wise. The main criticism is his in game management and substitutions. I think that has been to do with managing players minutes and being a bit risk adverse.  However, in recent games he has shown a willingness to change things e.g. Burnley at half time. In any case, substitutions are bit hit and miss as to whether they change the games even where those players have the ability to do so. Finally, as a comparison Carrick has grown into the job at Boro this season. Doesn't LM deserve the time to grow the team this season and prove his worth? If there is a major tail off in performance and results then the club may have decision to make for next season. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, bpexile said:

Its not about what I would like said, I just don't understand making statements like that & not giving the guy a chance to prove himself.

So he has a player he doesn’t rate that highly who is trying his heart out in training. Why would he play someone just because they try hard?  Fair play to Cornick for being a top pro but that’s not enough to get picked.  He is asked about him in a press conference and gives a complimentary answer. That’s all there is to it 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

So he has a player he doesn’t rate that highly who is trying his heart out in training. Why would he play someone just because they try hard?  Fair play to Cornick for being a top pro but that’s not enough to get picked.  He is asked about him in a press conference and gives a complimentary answer. That’s all there is to it 

If he doesn't rate him that highly that is his prerogative, but I think given the conditions, the change in momentum- the possibility of 20-25 mins v Burnley would've helped us.

Seems a questionable judgment call really.

[TDarwall]

Think it's clear that Cornick is a good pro, works hard, doesn't sulk etc. As a bloke LM.may think he's top notch, but clearly doesn't rate him / see him here for the long run.

I wouldn't have been averse to seeing him get some mins but I can also see why the coach would prefer to use Sincs or Fally as they're here for the foreseeable.

[Solent Robin]

Cornick is not the answer. He was a cheap option in the January window when we had little money having spent the budget on Mehmeiti. He runs around like a headless chicken (press wise) and doesn't add any quality. Only thing of note in his time here was the goal against Southampton and if you include his long throw. We have moved on and I would prefer we concentrate on giving Armstrong or Fally some game time as they are the future. Effectively he is fourth choice so we won't see him on the pitch again unless we have injuries up front. He will have left the club by the summer. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

43 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

Think it's clear that Cornick is a good pro, works hard, doesn't sulk etc. As a bloke LM.may think he's top notch, but clearly doesn't rate him / see him here for the long run.

I wouldn't have been averse to seeing him get some mins but I can also see why the coach would prefer to use Sincs or Fally as they're here for the foreseeable.

 

23 minutes ago, Solent Robin said:

Cornick is not the answer. He was a cheap option in the January window when we had little money having spent the budget on Mehmeiti. He runs around like a headless chicken (press wise) and doesn't add any quality. Only thing of note in his time here was the goal against Southampton and if you include his long throw. We have moved on and I would prefer we concentrate on giving Armstrong or Fally some game time as they are the future. Effectively he is fourth choice so we won't see him on the pitch again unless we have injuries up front. He will have left the club by the summer. 

 

In effect then, on one level it could.be seen as putting the future ahead of the present.

By which I mean..Cornick and his different attributes plus greater experience in swirling wind and rain. Perhaps those different attributes help us get a point.

About playing the conditions to some extent. A point further from the Playoffs- at worst we lose which guess what, we do anyway.

[bcfcredandwhite]

I suggest we give him until we lose a game.  Then we hang the ‘Manning Out’ banners (recycled from the LJ out banners) from the M32 bridges. 
 

Edited Sunday at 23:52 by bcfcredandwhite
Add words

[Mr Popodopolous]

Anyway, Manning surely deserves the season, barring an utter disaster whereby we are deep in the relegation mire in March/April and we don't seem that sort of side.

[TDarwall]

As a general rule we always give a manager time.  I don't give much time to the "12 months is the average tenure for a Championship mgr" - just because other clubs act stupidly - we don't have to copy them (we have our own, bespoke ways of acting stupidly without copying the generic ones too!).

I'll concede, when a player improves I'm never sure if it's due to the player himself or the coaching. Were LJ et al responsible for the Bobby Reid transformation or was it down to the lad himself? I guess it's probably a mix of both.

Notwithstanding that, I think it's unarguable that Anis has improved hugely from 12 months ago so the coaching team as a whole have to take some credit for that (along with Anis). Based on his recent performances there should be a queue of LG 1 clubs wanting to take him on loan in Jan.

The funny thing is with 3 games from 7th - 14th Dec we could be back on the coat tails of the PO's or re-opening the "time for a change" posts very soon.

 

[Numero Uno]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

For me it is all about trajectory and the both the singular trajectory of performances or results as well as the combo of both.

I said this at the break, what would we see, a continued upward trajectory from a semi-low point pre-Boro or go backwards, or stay “samey”.  Result results wise we’ve returned 1 win and 2 defeats (3 points from 3 games), but I’ve been pretty happy with all 3 performances taking into account the relevant opposition in each of the three games…ie upward trajectory being maintained in performances if not results per se.

I don't think anyone is really thinking of getting rid of Manning (nor do they have a say in such matters).

What we need is avoiding one game knee-jerk in either direction.

I think the mood after two defeats was pretty placid, because people get 1) it was Burnley and we played pretty well and 2) it was Watford and we again played pretty well, first half especially…and they came off the back of Norwich.

And I think we need to divorce critique of individual players, in several cases justified imho, from team.  I honestly don’t see what is wrong in praising team performances whilst critiquing say Armstrong and Mayulu, who’ve not been hugely contributing to the team.  If that makes sense.

 

There is critique of players when they put in a substandard performance but what you’ve seen on here this weekend is posters literally MAKING EXCUSES because a player played or did something well. Or stating as “absolute fact” that a player was “miles offside” when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Load of really weird bollocks from people who are nothing more than desperate to be right.

[cidered abroad]

On 30/11/2024 at 20:09, Davefevs said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

And I think “played better” for most is only concerned with the “attacking” side of the game, whereas I think it’s both sides of the game that counts.  So I judge on both sides of the game.

I’m certainly enjoying the intent of the last 6-8 games, it’s much easier on the eye.

So, as for your poll, are you taking Manning overall, a one-off game, or a recent batch.  It really depends on the “scope” of the poll.

FWIW, we had spells under Pearson I thought were good, but I’m not sure they’re wholly comparable.  Some of the WSM stuff was sublime for example, power, pace, etc.

=====

Manning has a deeper squad, that is undisputed.  Is it better, that is all too subjective.

IMO it’s not the difference in squad quality that matters.

I consider that the greatest difference between Pearson’s and Manning’s squads is quite simple.

Pearson encouraged all his players to take responsibility for how they did things during the game.

Manning is telling them what to do irrespective of how the opposition are changing tactics during the match. 

[Rob k]

I couldn’t disagree more with ST85 but he’s entitled to his view, ultimately it’s why i think this is one of the better forums, plenty of debate and opinions, and we don’t always all have to agree. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

There is critique of players when they put in a substandard performance but what you’ve seen on here this weekend is posters literally MAKING EXCUSES because a player played or did something well. Or stating as “absolute fact” that a player was “miles offside” when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Load of really weird bollocks from people who are nothing more than desperate to be right.

True in some cases, I agree. It’s why I don’t try to frame an individual on one game, I might say he was great or shit in a game, but that just feeds into the overall appraisal.

Same with Manning too.

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

9 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I suggest we give him until we lose a game.  Then we hang the ‘Manning Out’ banners (recycled from the LJ out banners) from the M32 bridges. 
 

Until we lose? you bloody happy clapper! it should be next time we dont win

[Silvio Dante]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

There is critique of players when they put in a substandard performance but what you’ve seen on here this weekend is posters literally MAKING EXCUSES because a player played or did something well. Or stating as “absolute fact” that a player was “miles offside” when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Load of really weird bollocks from people who are nothing more than desperate to be right.

It’s one of those things that I think can be lost in the nuance of typing over tone.

It can be equally true to both say that Plymouth were probably the worst side we’ve seen down here in years, and that in the second half City played exceptionally well. I don’t think stating one necessarily lessens the other, but it is then reasonable to state ask would we have played as well against a better (particularly better organised) team?

And on a player basis, I do think it’s reasonable to say that was two very good finishes from Anis and he played very well, but I’d be disappointed in the way the defence “showed” him on the first if I was an Argyle fan.

The issue is that as soon as someone observes “but Plymouth were shit”, then some people think it means the performance is being downgraded. It’s kind of the inverse of Burnley, where I thought we played well, but were contained. However Burnley’s quality made it look as if we were worse (if that makes sense).

Over the last three games, we’ve probably been at the same level overall across the piece. First half Watford and second half Plymouth the highlights. What that probably says is that we’re in a place where we can play/get results in a directly proportional nature to the quality of the opposition. And as we’re probably mid table quality it’s a decent base. The next challenge is outperforming our resources.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Over the last three games, we’ve probably been at the same level overall across the piece. First half Watford and second half Plymouth the highlights. What that probably says is that we’re in a place where we can play/get results in a directly proportional nature to the quality of the opposition.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

Over the last three games, we’ve probably been at the same level overall across the piece. First half Watford and second half Plymouth the highlights. What that probably says is that we’re in a place where we can play/get results in a directly proportional nature to the quality of the opposition. And as we’re probably mid table quality it’s a decent base. The next challenge is outperforming our resources.

I haven't quoted your whole post but I agree particularly with the above. I said yesterday that Manning's next challenge is to retain the defensive solidity that has seen us concede 10 in the last 13 (8 in the last 12 McNally has started) BUT show a bit more of what we saw on Saturday when we play the better sides. We won't batter better sides like we did Plymouth but the Watford game shows we have it in us to control significant portions of games that we MUST start capitalising on if the Tinnion/Lansdown dream is to be realised.

Regarding the rest of your post I agree in general except to say that in a small minority of cases there was no nuance at all being shown.....one or two WERE determined to dumb down Mehmeti's contribution on Saturday and more than one or two desperately wanted the lino to (incorrectly) stick that flag up when Bird played Sinclair through - bizarre.

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Over the last three games, we’ve probably been at the same level overall across the piece. First half Watford and second half Plymouth the highlights. What that probably says is that we’re in a place where we can play/get results in a directly proportional nature to the quality of the opposition. And as we’re probably mid table quality it’s a decent base. The next challenge is outperforming our resources.

Yep, and I think that is, at least in part, a symptom of recruiting for depth and breadth rather than singular talents. Having that broader, wider squad where talent is more evenly spread has, I think, lessened the impact of injuries.

Take McGuane on Saturday. One of our best players over the last month, out injured - presumably fairly late in the day - and in comes Twine. He takes a little bit of time to get up to speed but even you and I will admit that he played well and had a strong game, including getting a fortunate goal.

It's good, and it's what I hoped we would see when we recruited the way we did in the summer.

We've moved to a point where we can be confident against the weaker teams, get soundly beaten by just one or two of the top teams, and are now dangerous to teams like Preston , Norwich, Millwall, and Watford. It's the games against those mid table sides where we can make a difference, and honestly it's those games where we're getting something different to what we've seen in past seasons.

Edited 19 hours ago by ExiledAjax

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

True in some cases, I agree. It’s why I don’t try to frame an individual on one game, I might say he was great or shit in a game, but that just feeds into the overall appraisal.

Same with Manning too.

I've watched enough football, and I'm sure you have, to KNOW that younger players can make you look a complete and utter mug (either way) if you go too early on them. Semenyo being "league 1 at best" being the particular favourite of mine that I read on here - now we are talking about how much sell-on from a tens of millions of pounds transfer we might get!! That is exactly why I'm keeping my powder dry on Sinclair Armstrong right now.

Some start off crap or very hit and miss/frustrating and turn out to be top quality players and others start like a house on fire, look the part, get labelled the next best thing, gonna fund our transfer budget for the next 15 years and then you randomly notice that they are turning out for Hendon five years later still in their early twenties.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I haven't quoted your whole post but I agree particularly with the above. I said yesterday that Manning's next challenge is to retain the defensive solidity that has seen us concede 10 in the last 13 (8 in the last 12 McNally has started) BUT show a bit more of what we saw on Saturday when we play the better sides. We won't batter better sides like we did Plymouth but the Watford game shows we have it in us to control significant portions of games that we MUST start capitalising on if the Tinnion/Lansdown dream is to be realised.

Regarding the rest of your post I agree in general except to say that in a small minority of cases there was no nuance at all being shown.....one or two WERE determined to dumb down Mehmeti's contribution on Saturday and more than one or two desperately wanted the lino to (incorrectly) stick that flag up when Bird played Sinclair through - bizarre.

In which case that is bang out of order. I’ll admit to not being the biggest Mehmeti or Armstrong fan but you have to acknowledge when somebody has played well.

(Side note on Mehmeti - there was one thing I noted early in the second half where he did recieve the ball on the angle of the box. His options were cross to Wells vs 5 players, wait for the cavalry or try and take it on/shoot. Might watch the game back to see how many of his “excessive holds” were actually a function of wider team position in first half)

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep, and I think that is, at least in part, a symptom of recruiting for depth and breadth rather than singular talents. Having that broader, wider squad where talent is more evenly spread has, I think, lessened the impact of injuries.

Take McGuane on Saturday. One of our best players over the last month, out injured - presumably fairly late in the day - and in comes Twine. He takes a little bit of time to get up to speed but even you and I will admit that he played well and had a strong game, including getting a fortunate goal.

It's good, and it's what I hoped we would see when we recruited the way we did in the summer.

I’m not admitting Twine played well, that’s a bridge too far

No, being serious I thought he was disappointing first half and we did play slower (correlation/causation point again). I did however see work rate (there were two slid interceptions) so it may have been a bit of getting up to speed. Second half he should have scored the pullback, but was unlucky on the one that hit the bar. For me, he was probably ok overall - about a 6/7 if you’re marking. 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yep, and I think that is, at least in part, a symptom of recruiting for depth and breadth rather than singular talents. Having that broader, wider squad where talent is more evenly spread has, I think, lessened the impact of injuries.

Take McGuane on Saturday. One of our best players over the last month, out injured - presumably fairly late in the day - and in comes Twine. He takes a little bit of time to get up to speed but even you and I will admit that he played well and had a strong game, including getting a fortunate goal.

It's good, and it's what I hoped we would see when we recruited the way we did in the summer.

We've moved to a point where we can be confident against the weaker teams, get soundly beaten by just one or two of the top teams, and are now dangerous to teams like Preston , Norwich, Millwall, and Watford. It's the games against those mid table sides where we can make a difference, and honestly it's those games where we're getting something different to what we've seen in past seasons.

It’s now taking that squad depth, and using it to kick-on.  There is definitely a consistency (or at least more consistency, it’ll never be totally consistent) in recent performances.  It’s now gauging what the true level of the team is.  I really want us to break out of win, lose, draw.  I sense the signs are there, but I can’t go all-in at this point, I need that bigger sample size.  I think after the Xmas period, not only gives me enough games, but also how we fair over a condensed period of fixtures…which we haven’t had all season so far.  That will (hopefully) prove whether squad depth can be a difference-maker or not.  We have an interesting bunch of fixtures coming up.

I’m not one for predicting results, other than it’s the Championship….but it will give us a fair indication of direction of travel.

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

For me, he was probably ok overall - about a 6/7 if you’re marking. 

See this is semantics. For me 6/7 is "well". Above that we get to "very well", then "great", up to "fantastic", "unbelievable" etc etc. Anyway, it showed our depth can work - and that's across the last four games, even the last five if we exclude the final 15 minutes against Sheff Utd. It's been a long while since we sat here and said we had 4 or 5 consecutive largely decent performances.

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s now taking that squad depth, and using it to kick-on.  There is definitely a consistency (or at least more consistency, it’ll never be totally consistent) in recent performances.  It’s now gauging what the true level of the team is.  I really want us to break out of win, lose, draw.  I sense the signs are there, but I can’t go all-in at this point, I need that bigger sample size.  I think after the Xmas period, not only gives me enough games, but also how we fair over a condensed period of fixtures…which we haven’t had all season so far.  That will (hopefully) prove whether squad depth can be a difference-maker or not.  We have an interesting bunch of fixtures coming up.

I’m not one for predicting results, other than it’s the Championship….but it will give us a fair indication of direction of travel.

I DM'd you but let's have the chat here as I'd be interested in other opinions.

We have £9m of the Scott/Semenyo money left on the books. Steve needs to be persuaded to sign off spending it, but it's in the "warchest" if it can be accessed. Let's assume we have some wages to play with as well, say a first offer of £15k, rising to £18k p/w if we get pushed. So that's your budget.

Play a bit of Football Manager with me - we've got this solid 10th place squad, to get to 6th/7th we need one player to come in and get us two or three extra wins. 9 points more than we should get with the squad we have.

Who would you get?

[Bris Red]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Anyway, Manning surely deserves the season, barring an utter disaster whereby we are deep in the relegation mire in March/April and we don't seem that sort of side.

Yes agreed. My dream would be for a complete shake up of the positions above Manning though, starting with Tinnion. 

Get a proper CEO back at the football club, and a proper Director of football. People who are best in class for this level (or the very best that we can attract as a club) however i won't hold my breath.

 

[Son of Fred]

14 hours ago, The turtle said:

It's more than fair to say has a better squad but question forward recruitment.

 

14 hours ago, The turtle said:

The issue is - forward options. Up till now, it has been somewhat disappointing.

 

14 hours ago, The turtle said:

jury is out on fally and Armstrong.

 

14 hours ago, The turtle said:

Good work has been done in most areas of the pitch.

But it's in forward area where doubts remain. And it's in forward areas where success this season*** will be decided.

Imo we have have weakened our striking options - not strengthened them.

And the reason we won't make top six.

Elsewhere on the pitch we have strength in depth - certainly not up top.

This game ultimately is about sticking the ball in the net & it's the area we are weakest..

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

Until we lose? you bloody happy clapper! it should be next time we dont win

Next time we don't win? You bloody happy clapper. It should be next time it's nil nil at half time with a team we think we should beat!

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I've watched enough football, and I'm sure you have, to KNOW that younger players can make you look a complete and utter mug (either way) if you go too early on them. Semenyo being "league 1 at best" being the particular favourite of mine that I read on here - now we are talking about how much sell-on from a tens of millions of pounds transfer we might get!! That is exactly why I'm keeping my powder dry on Sinclair Armstrong right now.

Some start off crap or very hit and miss/frustrating and turn out to be top quality players and others start like a house on fire, look the part, get labelled the next best thing, gonna fund our transfer budget for the next 15 years and then you randomly notice that they are turning out for Hendon five years later still in their early twenties.

Totally.  FWIW both Mayulu and Armstrong have shown they have capability at this level.  So I’m happy on that aspect.  My main gripe is the judgement as to whether they are / were ready to spearhead a campaign where we expect to be in the mix.  And in some respects if it’s Nahki that’s doing the spearheading, that is fine…it can be both a) good from a Bristol City point of view, but b) disappointing from a recruitment critique.  Of course if Nahki can’t sustain his current form and key-man status, it will create more critique of point b above.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Bris Red said:

Yes agreed. My dream would be for a complete shake up of the positions above Manning though, starting with Tinnion. 

Get a proper CEO back at the football club, and a proper Director of football. People who are best in class for this level (or the very best that we can attract as a club) however i won't hold my breath.

 

Tinnion back to Academy/Youth genuine CEO in, Jon Lansdown back to whatever he does best? Marshall is fine but the clue is in the title Group CEO- tells me he might be spread too thin, and Rawcliffe I think was one who spotted an FFP issue so he's good but those two aren't really deemed the major issue are they?

Best in class for the level is exactly what we should be aiming at, I'm still an Advocate of us making a play for Cat 1 Academy in the medium term.

[Mr Popodopolous]

39 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

See this is semantics. For me 6/7 is "well". Above that we get to "very well", then "great", up to "fantastic", "unbelievable" etc etc. Anyway, it showed our depth can work - and that's across the last four games, even the last five if we exclude the final 15 minutes against Sheff Utd. It's been a long while since we sat here and said we had 4 or 5 consecutive largely decent performances.

I DM'd you but let's have the chat here as I'd be interested in other opinions.

We have £9m of the Scott/Semenyo money left on the books. Steve needs to be persuaded to sign off spending it, but it's in the "warchest" if it can be accessed. Let's assume we have some wages to play with as well, say a first offer of £15k, rising to £18k p/w if we get pushed. So that's your budget.

Play a bit of Football Manager with me - we've got this solid 10th place squad, to get to 6th/7th we need one player to come in and get us two or three extra wins. 9 points more than we should get with the squad we have.

Who would you get?

Does this mean that we have a Net Spend under Manning of comfortably over £5m and perhaps more like £5-7m across just 2 Windows? Inclusive of Loan Fees etc.

[MythikRobins]

53 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I've watched enough football, and I'm sure you have, to KNOW that younger players can make you look a complete and utter mug (either way) if you go too early on them. Semenyo being "league 1 at best" being the particular favourite of mine that I read on here - now we are talking about how much sell-on from a tens of millions of pounds transfer we might get!! That is exactly why I'm keeping my powder dry on Sinclair Armstrong right now.

Some start off crap or very hit and miss/frustrating and turn out to be top quality players and others start like a house on fire, look the part, get labelled the next best thing, gonna fund our transfer budget for the next 15 years and then you randomly notice that they are turning out for Hendon five years later still in their early twenties.

I may look like a complete and utter mug but I really liked what I saw of him when I first heard we were signing him and still to this day I’m backing Fally. I’m all in on Fally stocks, he’ll be a big player for us eventually.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I DM'd you but let's have the chat here as I'd be interested in other opinions.

We have £9m of the Scott/Semenyo money left on the books. Steve needs to be persuaded to sign off spending it, but it's in the "warchest" if it can be accessed. Let's assume we have some wages to play with as well, say a first offer of £15k, rising to £18k p/w if we get pushed. So that's your budget.

Play a bit of Football Manager with me - we've got this solid 10th place squad, to get to 6th/7th we need one player to come in and get us two or three extra wins. 9 points more than we should get with the squad we have.

Who would you get?

That’s a tough one because my main focus on players is predominantly:

• EFL based
• young(ish) (I don’t have data on hunger!!!! )
• have upside (imho)
• would want to come here (imho)
• would fit the kind of wage and fee budgets (imho)

I don’t know the foreign market, so I can’t be proactive.  Although when rumours are about I can quickly pivot.

I don’t play Football Manager.

If this sort of money had been available in the summer, I’d have listed:

• Tom Cannon
• Tyrese Campbell
• Troy Parrott
• Ali Al-Hamadi
• Adam Idah

The ship has sailed on 4/5 of the above.  The only one left would mean negotiating with Mr Ashton!  I’d try a loan.  He’d have been 5th out of that list in the summer.

I’m sure I’ve missed one or two, possibly someone obvious.

I don’t think Louie Barry is the answer btw, but I suspect there are PL loanees out there, that might fit the bill this coming window.  I’m just not up to speed on them.

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

and Rawcliffe I think was one who spotted an FFP issue

What did he spot?

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s a tough one because my main focus on players is predominantly:

• EFL based
• young(ish) (I don’t have data on hunger!!!! )
• have upside (imho)
• would want to come here (imho)
• would fit the kind of wage and fee budgets (imho)

I don’t know the foreign market, so I can’t be proactive.  Although when rumours are about I can quickly pivot.

I don’t play Football Manager.

If this sort of money had been available in the summer, I’d have listed:

• Tom Cannon
• Tyrese Campbell
• Troy Parrott
• Ali Al-Hamadi
• Adam Idah

The ship has sailed on 4/5 of the above.  The only one left would mean negotiating with Mr Ashton!  I’d try a loan.  He’d have been 5th out of that list in the summer.

I’m sure I’ve missed one or two, possibly someone obvious.

I don’t think Louie Barry is the answer btw, but I suspect there are PL loanees out there, that might fit the bill this coming window.  I’m just not up to speed on them.

What did he spot?

I could be getting mixed up with someone else Idk. Who spotted the FFP issue, flagged it early? Perhaps I dreamt it, imagined it.

Edited 17 hours ago by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I could be getting mixed up with someone else Idk. Who spotted the FFP issue, flagged it early? Perhaps I dreamt it, imagined it.

You mean the FFP issue sped up by Covid?  Gavin Marshall is your answer.  In fact he spotted the issues prior to Covid.