Manure coming for us?

[temp]

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

Edited December 31, 2024 by temp

[sticks 1969]

Unfortunately never going to happen but never say never 

[Oh Louie louie]

Anyone who ain't seen the goal that relegated man utd have a watch of that. They were speculating on talk sport ashworth left cause he didn't want the new manager, looks like he had a point if that was true

[exAtyeoMax]

12 minutes ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

Gawd, the arrogance! I could quite easily imagine them rocking up to places like Oxford or City, they had to endure Luton, the poor lambs! 

[Slacker]

14 minutes ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

Hmmmmmm!I wonder what happened last time they had to come here and play us?

[temp]

5 minutes ago, sticks 1969 said:

Unfortunately never going to happen but never say never 

Too true, we are more likely to go up than they are likely to come down, how about us swopping places with them,   high odds for that happening

[Port Said Red]

If the FA are brave enough to apply sanctions against Man City, it would raise the possibility of a Manchester derby in the Championship!

If either or both of them came down, the money men would be very happy, juicy gate revenue and overseas TV deals would go through the roof.

[east sussex red]

26 minutes ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

Doesn't it also say alot about us as much as them

[cidercity1987]

Third or fourth non parachute turnover in the division and we still have to put up with disrespect that like. This club has a big image problem.

 

[Oh Louie louie]

The manager said he doesn't know what to do next. I can't see ratcliffe liking that.

[ChubStixx]

"If costs cutting is a pressing issue now, imagine what would happen if United had to adjust to a season of 46 club games and potentially midweek league trips to places like Bristol City and Oxford United."

Oxford aside, I don't see why they're referencing us in the article. Would playing against us away be any different to Ipswich, Bournemouth and Brentford, as examples? 

 

[2015]

Ebeneezer Ratcliffe is worse than the Glazers.

Their demise is absolute beautiful. They're a terrible terrible football team too

[Silvio Dante]

I didn’t think it was possible for Man Utd to be any more unlikeable, then Sir Jim Ratcliffe came along. As I saw it described, in the reverse of A Christmas Carol, he seems to have been visited by three ghosts convincing him to become a bigger shitbag.

First, you had one of the richest men in this country (or France, to be accurate), asking the taxpayer fund Old Trafford being redeveloped. That was followed by mass layoffs and when the players wanted to fund transport and hotels for staff to games that was denied. The tin lid came when Ratcliffe pulled funding from Man Utd’s former players association who support those ex players who need financial support, having played before the boom years.

Hes an utter scumbag and Man Utd being relegated would please me hugely just to see the look on his tax dodging, skinflint, selfish, face.

[DaveInSA]

I studied in Manchester in their glory days of the 90s. Coach loads of fans blocking the M6 on their way back to London (at least they went to the games I suppose).

It developed a completely irrational hatred of Man Utd in me. In the European games I would steadfastly support the opposition.

To see them now, is brilliant. It’s the first result I look forward to (after ours, and the gas). And it makes my weekend when they lose.

and the Jim Ratcliffe **** connection makes it all the more relishing!

[MelksRed]

57 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Third or fourth non parachute turnover in the division and we still have to put up with disrespect that like. This club has a big image problem.

 

Corrected that for you. 

Being consistently inconsistent is our problem. End of. 

[ExiledAjax]

42 minutes ago, ChubStixx said:

"If costs cutting is a pressing issue now, imagine what would happen if United had to adjust to a season of 46 club games and potentially midweek league trips to places like Bristol City and Oxford United."

Oxford aside, I don't see why they're referencing us in the article. Would playing against us away be any different to Ipswich, Bournemouth and Brentford, as examples? 

It makes sense to reference us as we're 99.99% certain to be in this division next season, and are a few records away from being the most typically Championship club of the last decade.

In many ways Bristol City embody the second division at this moment in time.

Edited December 31, 2024 by ExiledAjax

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, Slacker said:

Hmmmmmm!I wonder what happened last time they had to come here and play us?

I could be wrong............but were we not the only team to complete the double over them that season?  I think the last time Man U beat us was in the 1908/9 Cup Final.............(Slight exaggeration Ha!)

[ChubStixx]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It makes sense to reference us as we're 99.99% certain to be in this division next season, and are a few records away from being the most typically Championship club of the last decade.

In many ways Bristol City embody the second division at this moment in time.

That's a reasonable conclusion, but if you bring Oxford back into the equation, why have they been included in that case? As they're only a few points from the drop. 

Good chance they've just pointed to a couple of clubs that have never been in the Premier League, which more or less aligns with what you're saying I suppose.

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, ChubStixx said:

That's a reasonable conclusion, but if you bring Oxford back into the equation, why have they been included in that case? As they're only a few points from the drop. 

Good chance they've just pointed to a couple of clubs that have never been in the Premier League, which more or less aligns with what you're saying I suppose.

No idea why Oxford tbh. Applying my logic the other candidate is Preston isn't it. With QPR and Cardiff close behind (for the time being).

But anyway, Utd aren't getting relegated* so it's all just meaningless moot clickbait isn't it!?

*this season 

Edited December 31, 2024 by ExiledAjax

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

I hope the arrogant cocksuckers, with their plastic fans, get bumraped all the way to the North West Counties League.

 

[Barrs Court Red]

47 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I didn’t think it was possible for Man Utd to be any more unlikeable, then Sir Jim Ratcliffe came along. As I saw it described, in the reverse of A Christmas Carol, he seems to have been visited by three ghosts convincing him to become a bigger shitbag.

First, you had one of the richest men in this country (or France, to be accurate), asking the taxpayer fund Old Trafford being redeveloped. That was followed by mass layoffs and when the players wanted to fund transport and hotels for staff to games that was denied. The tin lid came when Ratcliffe pulled funding from Man Utd’s former players association who support those ex players who need financial support, having played before the boom years.

Hes an utter scumbag and Man Utd being relegated would please me hugely just to see the look on his tax dodging, skinflint, selfish, face.

I’m one of those that’s generally not bothered by Man U, but yeah, the Ratcliffe antics have had me enjoying each of their calamities this year.

He seems like a genuinely nasty bloke, like Alan Sugar steroids. 
 

All they need to do now is to put Stan Smith (for those unaware, Google him) in charge of hospitality. 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

And we were the only side in Division 2 to do the double over them that season.

[ChubStixx]

11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

No idea why Oxford tbh. Applying my logic the other candidate is Preston isn't it. With QPR and Cardiff close behind (for the time being).

But anyway, Utd aren't getting relegated* so it's all just meaningless moot clickbait isn't it!?

*this season 

Agreed. Bookies giving them an implied probability of ~3% for the drop.

[slartibartfast]

2 hours ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Bristol City for a mid week game"

 

Excuse me, they might STILL have to do that in the Prem !

[slartibartfast]

26 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

And we were the only side in Division 2 to do the double over them that season.

Queue Gerald Sinstadt (the wrong'un) foaming at the mouth !

Edited December 31, 2024 by slartibartfast

[exAtyeoMax]

46 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It makes sense to reference us as we're 99.99% certain to be in this division next season, and are a few records away from being the most typically Championship club of the last decade.

In many ways Bristol City embody the second division at this moment in time.

I think they are just implying we are both small-time clubs, not basing it on league position.

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

I hope the arrogant cocksuckers, with their plastic fans, get bumraped all the way to the North West Counties League.

 

We appreciate your input, but.................That'll do for now Mr Ten Hag?

[Mr Popodopolous]

FFP would be fun if they get relegated, EFL updated a few things in the Summer.

[southside]

4 hours ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

Curtis Davies said something very similar about us when Hull were struggling in the Prem, cheeky *unt

[Oh Louie louie]

I heard the tail end of a conversation earlier on the radio just under even money to finish in the top ten, I don't even fancy them for that 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't moan too much but that journo Storey who is looking to do all 92 Clubs, still hasn't been to Ashton Gate yet, to add to your theme @temp and @cidercity1987

Has been to both Championship Welsh Clubs however which surely are further to get to.

49/92. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Gazred]

Just watched the highlights of last nights game. Eriksen's efforts to get back and track a man sums them up. It was absolutely pathetic. Almost gets there with a slow jog then just stops and lets Joelinton get away.

They won't go down but there is a lot of rot to clear out of that side.

[Oh Louie louie]

How many of them would have got in a Ferguson team id struggle to make a argument for one player 

[cidercity1987]

If he's looking for geographically distant clubs he could have chosen Plymouth , Swansea, Cardiff, Portsmouth

If he's looking for poorly supported clubs he could go for Luton, Millwall, QPR, Blackburn

If he's looking for smaller income clubs he could have mentioned any other team in the division.

Bristol City name has no place in that article

Edited December 31, 2024 by cidercity1987

[Highburnred]

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

FFP would be fun if they get relegated, EFL updated a few things in the Summer.

What happens to Man City if they get found guilty and relegated, would they still be able to claim parachute payments?

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Highburnred said:

What happens to Man City if they get found guilty and relegated, would they still be able to claim parachute payments?

That is a very good question.

Unless the Panel expressly strip them of it, it would have to be as the Wording is Written IMO.

I'm sure they have no Relegation Reduction Clauses and the Income fall would be huge. Assume they would have no CL Revenue either..

Edited December 31, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Laner]

I wonder if he mentioned us as we're one of only a few in the league who haven't been in the Premier?

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

I’m one of those that’s generally not bothered by Man U, but yeah, the Ratcliffe antics have had me enjoying each of their calamities this year.

He seems like a genuinely nasty bloke, like Alan Sugar steroids. 
 

All they need to do now is to put Stan Smith (for those unaware, Google him) in charge of hospitality. 

I am intrigued.

The only Stan Smith I can think of (without googling him, as you suggest) is the former tennis player and his iconic tennis shoes.

Who is the other one to whom you refer?

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

23 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

If he's looking for geographically distant clubs he could have chosen Plymouth , Swansea, Cardiff, Portsmouth

If he's looking for poorly supported clubs he could go for Luton, Millwall, QPR, Blackburn

If he's looking for smaller income clubs he could have mentioned any other team in the division.

Bristol City name has no place in that article

However if you were to do a list of "long time in the Championship", "distance" and "not been in the Premier League"/"years since in the top flight" we'd be quite hight up on all those metrics, making us quite a good example of a club their fans wouldn't want to play in a midweek game.

 

As well as the fact we're as mid-table as mid-table gets, so little risk of us not being in the division should Man Utd actually be relegated.

[Oh Louie louie]

They played at Plymouth in the 70s in Europe they had to play so far from old Trafford due to hooliganism and they were given the choice of Carlisle or Plymouth, not a hard decision to make 

[temp]

32 minutes ago, Laner said:

I wonder if he mentioned us as we're one of only a few in the league who haven't been in the Premier?

Still dont get why it changed from 1st,2nd,3rd,4th divisions what next ffs, suppose they did try to start a Euro league

[Barrs Court Red]

32 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I am intrigued.

The only Stan Smith I can think of (without googling him, as you suggest) is the former tennis player and his iconic tennis shoes.

Who is the other one to whom you refer?

Ah it might be Sam Smith the world’s most miserable pub owner. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

4 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Ah it might be Sam Smith the world’s most miserable pub owner. 

Fantastic!

Your comment now makes a lot more sense .

Oh, and to be fair, Sam Smith (not to be confused with John Smith, or even Stan Smith) is a lovely beer.

Edited December 31, 2024 by PHILINFRANCE

[2015]

5 hours ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

They did go to Bristol City for a midweek game in 2017, and got beat 2-1 the cheeky ****

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

13 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Fantastic!

Your comment now makes a lot more sense .

Oh, and to be fair, Sam Smith (not to be confused with John Smith, or even Stan Smith) is a lovely beer.

Does he still wear those rubber incontinence trousers?

[MelksRed]

5 hours ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

I hope the arrogant cocksuckers, with their plastic fans, get bumraped all the way to the North West Counties League.

 

I get the feeling you are harbouring some negative feelings about Manure?

Remember, they are only.as good as the last time.we played them....Nuff said 

Edited December 31, 2024 by MelksRed

[Midred]

Rooney's available now!

[marmite]

I think it's the "Bristol City" image thing that has stayed with us for years being the reason we got mentioned.

West Country carrot crunching wurzels is how the Prem see us. Even back in the 70s when we got promoted to the top flight there was much ridicule about "little Bristol City" playing with the big boys. It's an image we have never shaken off. 

We need to earn the respect and its something we are crap at.

But the statement ...could they do it on a cold Tuesday at Bristol City?  We'll the answer to that was no, with a far better team than they have now!!

[Oh Louie louie]

The people who called us little Bristol city should read a history book and refer to when we played Man united and mabbut got a hat trick, they got embarrassed that night.

[harvey54]

44 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

The people who called us little Bristol city should read a history book and refer to when we played Man united and mabbut got a hat trick, they got embarrassed that night.

I was there for that. One of the Greenhoffs missed a penalty and I had my first ever restaurant curry meal in Worcester on the way home. What a day out!! 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

17 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

I was there for that. One of the Greenhoffs missed a penalty and I had my first ever restaurant curry meal in Worcester on the way home. What a day out!! 

I used to work in a pharma plant in Holmes Chapel, Cheshire. Jimmy Greenhoff worked there, on one of the filling lines (!)

[Midred]

I seem to remember them going around trashing all the 'little club' stadiums in the then second division and being relieved when they returned to the first division. 

Where we met them again two years later!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Oh wow I was right.

No Relegation Clauses.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/12/31/no-relegation-clauses-for-manchester-united-players0/

It won't happen of course but if they did...

[Leveller]

7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Fantastic!

Your comment now makes a lot more sense .

Oh, and to be fair, Sam Smith (not to be confused with John Smith, or even Stan Smith) is a lovely beer.

I went to Leeds to study in 1974 and Sam Smiths real ale was 17p a pint in the student bar. After previously only trying keg, I finally realised why people liked beer.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I went to Leeds to study in 1974 and Sam Smiths real ale was 17p a pint in the student bar. After previously only trying keg, I finally realised why people liked beer.

My choice of drink in the King William Alehouse on King Streer on a Monday night back in 1988 when I started work:

https://samuelsmithsbrewery.co.uk/shop/draught/stout/extra-stout/

Bloody lovely.

[The turtle]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

1988 when I started work:

I read 1888

Can't lie, had to look twice (blame cider)

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, The turtle said:

I read 1888

Can't lie, had to look twice (blame cider)

I had an easy paper round!

[richwwtk]

Sam Smiths is one very strange brand though...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/dec/19/humphreys-world-how-the-samuel-smith-beer-baron-built-britains-strangest-pub-chain

[LondonBristolian]

13 hours ago, temp said:

Relegation a real possibility according to bbc report by Simon Stone (someone do the link) and quotes their manager saying." a real possibility"

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

Was 50years ago since they were last in the 2nd div (remember it well) couldnt happen to a nicer team unlikely though.

I think we’re a logical team to mention. The Championship is so unpredictable that only us, Preston and Millwall are nailed on to not change divisions each season. Oxford a weirder team to mention though.

In terms of Man Utd, they’re not going down this season but Christ knows how they get themselves on the up again. They’re not going to be a better team without tactical discipline or a strategy and - like Amorim- any manager who wants to implement that is going to quickly find their just don’t have the players to do so. Which leaves a choice of either totally and utterly overhauling their squad* or appointing a pragmatic manager who can get a limited squad of players of fifth and sixth. 

*I really mean totally overhauling. I honestly think that Mainoo and maybe Garnacho are the only players with even the potential to both be good enough and stay fit enough to play for a top side.

[LondonBristolian]

4 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

Sam Smiths is one very strange brand though...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/dec/19/humphreys-world-how-the-samuel-smith-beer-baron-built-britains-strangest-pub-chain

Humphrey Smith seems by all accounts to be an utterly awful man. On the upside, he has just retired and his son has taken over so there is maybe a possibility of them starting to treat their landlords, employees and customers as actual human beings. I am not holding my breath though.

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

13 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think we’re a logical team to mention. The Championship is so unpredictable that only us, Preston and Millwall are nailed on to not change divisions each season. Oxford a weirder team to mention though.

In terms of Man Utd, they’re not going down this season but Christ knows how they get themselves on the up again. They’re not going to be a better team without tactical discipline or a strategy and - like Amorim- any manager who wants to implement that is going to quickly find their just don’t have the players to do so. Which leaves a choice of either totally and utterly overhauling their squad* or appointing a pragmatic manager who can get a limited squad of players of fifth and sixth. 

*I really mean totally overhauling. I honestly think that Mainoo and maybe Garnacho are the only players with even the potential to both be good enough and stay fit enough to play for a top side.

I honestly don't get the hype around Mainoo

 

Granted his debut (I think) was very good, and he scored a great goal in it or a game shortly after, but 95% of the games I've seen him play in he's been distinctly "meh".

 

Perhaps there's a bit of coincidence in that the Man Utd games I've actually watched have just coincided with his poorer games, but I really haven't seen anything that matches the hype that developed around him after the initial promising performances.

 

I can remember having similar thoughts with McTominay and feel I ended up right about him for Man Utd, although he is very popular in Naples after a bright start for Napoli.

[LondonBristolian]

52 minutes ago, Severn Beach Pigeon said:

I honestly don't get the hype around Mainoo

 

Granted his debut (I think) was very good, and he scored a great goal in it or a game shortly after, but 95% of the games I've seen him play in he's been distinctly "meh".

 

Perhaps there's a bit of coincidence in that the Man Utd games I've actually watched have just coincided with his poorer games, but I really haven't seen anything that matches the hype that developed around him after the initial promising performances.

 

I can remember having similar thoughts with McTominay and feel I ended up right about him for Man Utd, although he is very popular in Naples after a bright start for Napoli.

I think Mainoo is certainly overhyped but he is also only 19 and I think he has shown enough to suggest he is someone who might have the potential to develop into a very good player for Man Utd and England which if course doesn’t guarantee he will do so. My point was more that, outside of him and Garnacho, I don’t think there are many players at Man Utd that you could possibly argue even might develop into top players.

[Try Again coatpile]

We got promoted to the top division the year after they last played in the second tier. Maybe, just maybe...

[Curr Avon]

16 minutes ago, Try Again coatpile said:

We got promoted to the top division the year after they last played in the second tier. Maybe, just maybe...

Only club to do the double over them in 74/75. Donnie Gillies told me he was shitting himself before scoring in front of a teeming, screaming Stretford End in February 75. Great days!

Edited December 31, 2024 by Curr Avon

[Severn Beach Pigeon]

40 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think Mainoo is certainly overhyped but he is also only 19 and I think he has shown enough to suggest he is someone who might have the potential to develop into a very good player for Man Utd and England which if course doesn’t guarantee he will do so. My point was more that, outside of him and Garnacho, I don’t think there are many players at Man Utd that you could possibly argue even might develop into top players.

Fair point about age

 

For some reason I had him down as 19 for either his debut or first Prem goal, so 20/21 now and I suppose the change of the initial digit did me as well (even though that change was wrong).

 

Yoro/Yorro might be the other one, but I think it's harder for the average fan/viewer to spot the talent in a defender (compared to a midfielder who is obviously talented like Alex Scott, or a forward) so I'm probably basing it on him just being "highly rated" in the media.

 

The kid they nicked from Arsenal who scored a million goals in 20 games for the youth side last year might be good, but there's a big difference between doing it at youth level and for the first team.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Severn Beach Pigeon

[Redtucks]

15 hours ago, Slacker said:

Hmmmmmm!I wonder what happened last time they had to come here and play us?

...and they were a better side then!

 

[Try Again coatpile]

2 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

Only club to do the double over them in 74/75. Donnie Gillies told me he was shitting himself before scoring in front of a teeming, screaming Stretford End in February 75. Great days!

Sadly just too young...

My dad had a season ticket then and I did get to watch several games in the division one days, including two wins over Liverpool one sitting on the open end barriers when it was totally wedged and wild! 

[The Masked Man]

17 hours ago, temp said:

 

What caught my eye was a mention that "imagine them having to go to places like Oxford and Bristol City for a mid week game"

 

Given Ashton Gate is one of the better stadiums in the Championship this just feels like lazy journalism. No way United are going down if Everton managed to escape the drop whilst being completely hapless.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 31/12/2024 at 07:38, cidercity1987 said:

Third or fourth non parachute turnover in the division and we still have to put up with disrespect that like. This club has a big image problem.

 

I agree.

I have noted e.g. Daniel Storey. Journo who is doing all 92.

He has done 50 odd so far, bot us yet.. Geography you may say but he seems to have done and I haven't checked exhaustively but Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Swindon.

I'll see if he has done Exeter, Plymouth or Wrexham..but while he could be saving the best until last he certainly hasn't done Ashton Gate yet.

[Mr Popodopolous]

He's also done Exeter..on the South West and Wales he has yet to do a report from our ground, or that of our neighbours, Plymouth or Wrexham.