We need a new striker... Or do we?

[BobBobBobbin]

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

Edited January 4 by BobBobBobbin

[Davefevs]

@BobBobBobbin my view is similar, until we start creating chances that require a fox-in-the-box, I wouldn’t bother trying to get that type…and even then I might argue Nahki could be that.

I wouldn’t be against a striker who creates his own chances, as long as they can do the teamwork stuff too.  Someone of the ilk of Brereton-Diaz (not him per se).

Edited January 4 by Davefevs

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

Maybe in the summer, but it would be crackers to do it this window.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Jerry Yates is a good shout, he has been on my recent long list.

He can score some Goals too, works very hard and is reasonably mobile, would bring people in as you say.

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

Maybe in the summer, but it would be crackers to do it this window.

Unless the right person comes up this January who can benefit us now and medium term, perhaps to lead the attack.

[BobBobBobbin]

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Maybe in the summer, but it would be crackers to do it this window.

recalling SPH is the only logical move we could make imo; He'd offer exactly what we need from a substitute forward for Wells (Pressing, pace, height and hold up play)

[IAmNick]

I agree a new striker isn't necessarily the answer, we're not creating a load of gilt edged chances and missing them.

I don't really know what the answer is however. Often at the famous 60m mark when we replace Wells, we also replace one of Twine or Mehmeti which then changes how we play as well. If Twine goes off then I think quite often (today being a decent example) Mehmeti is a little lost and fades from the game afterwards. Yu coming on doesn't look the kind of player who's going to be on the end of moves in the box, he's going to try supplying them whereas Twine will do both. It changes the profile of the forward you need and you end up with a pre-subs and post-subs front line which then locks you into the sub pattern somewhat.

I wonder if sometimes we're trying to play the same way with different players at that point and it's not quite clicking.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

recalling SPH is the only logical move we could make imo; He'd offer exactly what we need from a substitute forward for Wells (Pressing, pace, height and hold up play)

I’d have still liked to have seen him preseason with OUR players rather than try to judge him at Dundee in the SPL.  I liked him at u21 level, I liked him at Newport in lg2, and he’s generally looked ok at Dundee in SPL, but I still don’t know his level.

[spudski]

15 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Max Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

I've also alluded to this in posts over the past few months. 

Wells and Bell imo fit with our forward play. 

They are about assists as well as goals. 

We rely on goals throughout the team. 

The false 9 could be said to fit very well. 

Personally I'm not adverse to it. 

 

 

[BobBobBobbin]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’d have still liked to have seen him preseason with OUR players rather than try to judge him at Dundee in the SPL.  I liked him at u21 level, I liked him at Newport in lg2, and he’s generally looked ok at Dundee in SPL, but I still don’t know his level.

To quote the pain men from Balls of Steel...

 

There's only one way to find out, Mark

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've also alluded to this in posts over the past few months. 

Wells and Bell imo fit with our forward play. 

They are about assists as well as goals. 

We rely on goals throughout the team. 

The false 9 could be said to fit very well. 

Personally I'm not adverse to it. 

 

 

Twine as False 9 or?

[PortInTheMorning]

26 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

What an excellent post! Very interesting take - didn't even think of that.

[ZiderMeUp]

Is it a slight myth we arnt scoring enough? Obviously not close to Norwich, boro or Leeds.  But we’ve scored more than WBA, Blackburn(played game less), Burnley who are all above us.

 

Sheff Utd scored 3 more, Sunderland 5 more.

Our goals against is what is keeping us out of top six looking at other sides.  Boro conceded more than us but everyone else is low twenty’s or less.

Mehmeti joint 4th top scorer.  Not too many of these strikers banging 25 goals a season about.

Bar Sainz from Norwich on 15 the rest are much of a muchness.

Could we do better, yes.  Could we do with a striker who scored 20+ a season yes but so could pretty much every other club in the champ.

 

[Silvio Dante]

32 minutes ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

I made this point the other day - but you’ve made it in more and better detail than me!

The crux for me is that across LMs managerial career we’ve seen lots of different types of striker - here alone, Conway, Wells, Armstrong, Mayulu. And none are prolific. You tie that to the xG we typically have and we aren’t creating loads of chances to miss - so I agree, it’s a total maguffin

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Twine as False 9 or?

Depends who's playing alongside him. 

I wouldn't be adverse to signing another attacking midfielder who scores and assists.

 

 

[italian dave]

I think you’re right @BobBobBobbin. I said at the start of the season, when there was discussion about who our “20 goal striker” would be that I didnt think that was necessarily what we were looking for.

And that we wanted a 10-15 goal no9, but single figure goal scorers throughout the team. (The GJ team that got us closer to the Prem than any other had a top scorer with 8 goals - but something like 15 different scorers).

I’m not sure things have quite panned out as anticipated, at least not as far as Fally and Sincs are concerned. But Nahki’s record means that if he keeps playing as much as he has he’s on course for 10.

Players like Anis and McNally and Twine have started chipping in with the numbers I think you’d expect. Arguably Jason Knight, Yu, Max Bird we might be expecting a little bit more from: likewise Sykes when he returns. And perm a goal or two from any of Roberts, McCrorie, Earthy, Pring, Bell - and that would, I think, be more like what was anticipated. 

[BobBobBobbin]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

I made this point the other day - but you’ve made it in more and better detail than me!

The crux for me is that across LMs managerial career we’ve seen lots of different types of striker - here alone, Conway, Wells, Armstrong, Mayulu. And none are prolific. You tie that to the xG we typically have and we aren’t creating loads of chances to miss - so I agree, it’s a total maguffin

I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing; In fact in my lifetime at this level the only time we've had a 20 goal striker at this level and not been pretty shite was Maynard in 09/10 (10th). Akinbyi (relegated) Tammy (almost relegated) and Andi (lower midtable and arguably a 10)...

Give me a functional team over a 20 goal individual any day

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, BobBobBobbin said:

I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing; In fact in my lifetime at this level the only time we've had a 20 goal striker at this level and not been pretty shite was Maynard in 09/10 (10th). Akinbyi (relegated) Tammy (almost relegated) and Andi (lower midtable and arguably a 10)...

Give me a functional team over a 20 goal individual any day

 

How many did Reid score? We were quite good that season..For parts.

[BobBobBobbin]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

How many did Reid score? We were quite good that season..For parts.

Ah Bobby! my bad I forgot him!

[fly in the air]

Definitely need a striker. if wells gets injured we are stuffed. sph on his performance against Dundee utd is not ready.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How many did Reid score? We were quite good that season..For parts.

19 league plus 2 league cup (in 17/18)

[Cider man]

Watching today it's a attack minded right back that I'd be looking for a upgrade on both right backs at the club that makes chances for who ever up top

[Scrumpty]

Tammy would complete this team, but he’s obviously out of our reach, but how about this guy https://www.cpfc.co.uk/teams/under-21/jemiah-umolu/

[Topper 123]

Definitely do need a stricter with pace , NW hasn’t got the pace to make the runs through the middle to chase balls supplied by bird twine or knight and when did we last score from a cross or corner , fally hasn’t got the knowledge and Sinclair no finess and with cornick out of favour we are definitely short in this position 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Scrumpty said:

Tammy would complete this team, but he’s obviously out of our reach, but how about this guy https://www.cpfc.co.uk/teams/under-21/jemiah-umolu/

By complete this team to which level?

Competing more strongly for 5th and 6th? Don't think we create and allow enough to aspire to much higher.

[BobBobBobbin]

3 minutes ago, Scrumpty said:

Tammy would complete this team, but he’s obviously out of our reach, but how about this guy https://www.cpfc.co.uk/teams/under-21/jemiah-umolu/

The point is that he probably wouldn't, because he scored tap ins and we don't create tap ins. We are outperforming our xG. It's not like we are missing gilt edged chances.

[Scrumpty]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

By complete this team to which level?

Competing more strongly for 5th and 6th? Don't think we create and allow enough to aspire to much higher.

Yes, compete with 4th, 5th or 6th. Totally unrealistic for us to compete with the paras.

[Scrumpty]

1 minute ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The point is that he probably wouldn't, because he scored tap ins and we don't create tap ins. We are outperforming our xG. It's not like we are missing gilt edged chances.

I’d say that’s a little disingenuous, he scored plenty in the box, in addition to tap ins. His hold up play (for a teenager) was good, as was his movement. We had several openings today where I’d expect him to get a shot on goal.

[BobBobBobbin]

1 minute ago, Scrumpty said:

I’d say that’s a little disingenuous, he scored plenty in the box, in addition to tap ins. His hold up play (for a teenager) was good, as was his movement. We had several openings today where I’d expect him to get a shot on goal.

I loved Tammy. I said after about 5 minutes of his debut that we had an absolute player. Arguably my favourite player of the modern era before Alex Scott broke through. 

But the point of the OP is that Manning doesn't do 20 goal a season strikers, ever. So signing one wouldn't "complete" us under him because the likelihood is they wouldn't be one anymore!

 

 

[bcfcredandwhite]

We need SOMEONE to be composed in front of goal and stick some of our clear cut chances away. 
 

[BobBobBobbin]

Just now, bcfcredandwhite said:

We need SOMEONE to be composed in front of goal and stick some of our clear cut chances away. 
 

what clear cut chances?

We are outperforming our xG.

 

[Dr Balls]

Had been thinking the same thing after a discussion in the pub about our recent 20 league goals per season strikers at this level (Maynard, Kodjia, Abraham, Weimann). As said before on various threads, even the most prolific strikers would struggle to score many in this team, given the formation and style of play preferred by Manning.

The problem we have is that many strikers prefer, and play their best, having a partner (or two) to play off, so finding one happy upfront on their own and not expect to get many chances or goals is a real challenge. Nakhi can play that way as can Sam Bell, but it’s a lot of running and closing down at the front for minimal reward.

It doesn’t help that with the recent exception of Max Bird, we haven’t been playing many balls through the middle along the ground for a striker to run on to. For all that Twine has some skills, and is supposedly our “game changer” I would suggest that he rarely lays on much for the player in front of him, and that is a problem. And Mehmeti is not much better. By contrast both Knight and Bird have 5 so far this season. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/top-scorers#TopAssists

[Grey Fox]

Call me old fashioned but, to win football matches and to make them entertaining, you need to score goals, lmo. An upgrade on Wells who is faster and more prolific in sticking the bloody ball in the bloody net , can’t hurt , can it ?

Equally someone of that nature, with good movement might just make it easier for our noble lads to create more chances than they do now.

The final third, plus individual errors, are still our problem areas , the signing of a decent striker would/ should help address at least one of those concerns.

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Twine as False 9 or?

The inference of this is that we don’t play a 9 at all, and Twine as the false 9….yes?

If so, then no…we need a focal point / channel runner.  The false 9 means we won’t have that.

[Scrumpty]

20 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

We need SOMEONE to be composed in front of goal and stick some of our clear cut chances away. 
 

Agree, but not just that. We need someone who can…

• Find 1/2 a yard in a crowded box (and get a shot away early)
• Run a line, with pace, for Bird and Twine to find. Sincs is good at this, but lacks the composure you describe 
• Hold up the ball when hit long or short. Nakhi’s okay short, but hopeless with long high balls

in other words, we need the complete striker, but don’t have £50m to spend. So what’s the next best option

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The inference of this is that we don’t play a 9 at all, and Twine as the false 9….yes?

If so, then no…we need a focal point / channel runner.  The false 9 means we won’t have that.

Just wondered if it could be a Plan B if Wells unavailable e.g. In the right structure he could focus purely on attacking and creating, but is he of the level to justify it.

Focal Point/Channel Runner, I've started to wonder about Yates in recent weeks.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just wondered if it could be a Plan B if Wells unavailable e.g. In the right structure he could focus purely on attacking and creating, but is he of the level to justify it.

Focal Point/Channel Runner, I've started to wonder about Yates in recent weeks.

Plan B, ie plan A with as similar a striker as Wells = Sam Bell

[CosmosUK]

Always said this from the minute we signed Armstrong, I don’t think a championship clubs scouting department (even one as inept as ours) thought for a minute that would be adding 15+ a season, however I think the consensus was that he would make the surging runs with pace that would open space for deeper lying players to get into the box and score from. 
 

As it happens he’s turned out (again my opinion) to be a very very lazy player who whilst blessed with great speed and physical attributes doesn’t use them to his advantage enough.

I do think the plan was always to spread goals around the team with Twine being the centre piece in that, and his injury problems at the start of the season curtailed this somewhat 

[Cityboy1954]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Depends who's playing alongside him. 

I wouldn't be adverse to signing another attacking midfielder who scores and assists.

 

 

We got one at cambridge was told he ran the gas ragged today but missed s one on one .

[NDW4CITY]

1 hour ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

Brilliant post which I totally agree with. Just boggles the mind that anyone thought SA or FM would be the “facilitator”.

[bcfcredandwhite]

2 hours ago, BobBobBobbin said:

what clear cut chances?

We are outperforming our xG.

 

Sorry BBB I don’t know what xG is !!

If you watch today’s highlights you will see several golden chances; Twine, Fally to be specific  

Over a season, many teams (ourselves included) will play well in a game, dominate possession and still drop points - sometimes in games we feel we should have won. We are often ahead on all the stats except one - the one that matters. 
The Watford game is a good example, but there are sadly many others. 
We absolutely battered Watford, but came away with ‘nil points’ - because they took their one chance and we fluffed our many. 
The difference between a solid Championship side and a promotion contender side is that the contenders stick their chances away. The ‘also-rans’ miss many of theirs. 
Maybe we don’t need one specific striker, but we certainly do need to step up in front of goal. 

[Pugofwar]

I have to preface this by saying that I don't think Mayulu is good enough. But to the OPs point I think that that type of forward can work well in this system. A focal point that can bring others (forward runners) into play. Right now Wells is the closest we have to that although it's probably not his natural game. 

Edit: this is why the Armstrong recruitment annoys me because I don't understand how he fits in at all 

Edited January 5 by Pugofwar

[Baldyman]

3 hours ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

I don’t necessarily feel that’s it’s a goal scorer that’s needed . What we do need is a strong , experienced striker up top who can hold on to the ball allowing Mehmeti, Bird, Twine etc to join the attack . Think back to the role Wilbs used to perform and that’s what we need in my book . Sincs and Fally have neither the experience nor the first ( or 2nd ) touch to do that job at the moment . 

[MythikRobins]

3 hours ago, Cider man said:

Watching today it's a attack minded right back that I'd be looking for a upgrade on both right backs at the club that makes chances for who ever up top

Seeing Kane Wilson charge down the wing made me deeply wish it worked out for him here.

[Cider man]

47 minutes ago, MythikRobins said:

Seeing Kane Wilson charge down the wing made me deeply wish it worked out for him here.

Better player than McCrorie in my opinion but then again so is Anthony Ralston and Max Johnston think wages would stop a loan for Nathan Patterson though but would be interesting too see if Ralston would come for 6 months cos he would add something 

[Jose]

It’s not just about chances being created for him. A good striker can create his own anyway.Whether that by making something out of nothing, or his movement.

Everytime we take Wells off we look substantially weaker. That alone shows we need another forward to share the workload. 

[City oz]

6 hours ago, italian dave said:

I think you’re right @BobBobBobbin. I said at the start of the season, when there was discussion about who our “20 goal striker” would be that I didnt think that was necessarily what we were looking for.

And that we wanted a 10-15 goal no9, but single figure goal scorers throughout the team. (The GJ team that got us closer to the Prem than any other had a top scorer with 8 goals - but something like 15 different scorers).

I’m not sure things have quite panned out as anticipated, at least not as far as Fally and Sincs are concerned. But Nahki’s record means that if he keeps playing as much as he has he’s on course for 10.

Players like Anis and McNally and Twine have started chipping in with the numbers I think you’d expect. Arguably Jason Knight, Yu, Max Bird we might be expecting a little bit more from: likewise Sykes when he returns. And perm a goal or two from any of Roberts, McCrorie, Earthy, Pring, Bell - and that would, I think, be more like what was anticipated. 

We still I think lack a true number 9. Yesterday we missed some chances and there have been several instances especially in the last five or so matches where a typical number 9 would have netted a goal. If these chances were taken, we would be in fifth or sixth spot by now.

Others are contributing well which shows some depth in the squad especially Anis. I would expect Anis to be around maybe 15 by end of the season and even a few more if we get a cup run.

[City oz]

7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Maybe in the summer, but it would be crackers to do it this window.

If the right player becomes available, then why not. Especially if we have interest in Nahki and Armstong.

[Tomo]

1 hour ago, City oz said:

We still I think lack a true number 9. Yesterday we missed some chances and there have been several instances especially in the last five or so matches where a typical number 9 would have netted a goal. If these chances were taken, we would be in fifth or sixth spot by now.

Others are contributing well which shows some depth in the squad especially Anis. I would expect Anis to be around maybe 15 by end of the season and even a few more if we get a cup run.

I agree. We should be trying everything possible to bring in that player during this window if we are going to have an exciting end to the season...

[ExiledAjax]

2 hours ago, City oz said:

If the right player becomes available, then why not. Especially if we have interest in Nahki and Armstong.

Primarily for the reasons discussed in the opening post.

Secondarily because strikers in January are expensive and rarely score even 5 goals before the end of the season.

Combine those two things and it would just be setting everything up for a frustratingly futile signing. 

[City oz]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Primarily for the reasons discussed in the opening post.

Secondarily because strikers in January are expensive and rarely score even 5 goals before the end of the season.

Combine those two things and it would just be setting everything up for a frustratingly futile signing. 

Just like Armstrong then. I can't be bothered in looking back now at the original post.

The club needs to do something in this transfer window to create a playoff position. Have we not already had futile signings backed by Tinnion and Liam.

 

[Alessandro]

I think this is the question with Manning’s one up top style of football - Wells has shown us what we need in terms of teamwork and linking up and our best results/performances seem to generally have Nahki up top. 

As other’s have said, a fox in the box isn’t really the issue:

What we need is the press, link, teamwork and finishing of Wells.

The physicality of Fally.

And the pace of Armstrong.

I guess that’s the problem, not easy to get!
 

But the latter two and Bell, for me, don’t do enough of the key things Wells can, for us to compete at the sharp end of the league - so ideally we’d have someone who can ‘link up’ like Wells as competition for him as soon as possible - that would be great.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Bit of a strange thought, but do wonder if McNally could play upfront, he has a lot of the attributes needed, cool finisher, deceptively quick, hard working, physically strong, obviously totally different position to play and a loss from defence.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I think this is the question with Manning’s one up top style of football - Wells has shown us what we need in terms of teamwork and linking up and our best results/performances seem to generally have Nahki up top. 

As other’s have said, a fox in the box isn’t really the issue:

What we need is the press, link, teamwork and finishing of Wells.

The physicality of Fally.

And the pace of Armstrong.

I guess that’s the problem, not easy to get!
 

But the latter two and Bell, for me, don’t do enough of the key things Wells can, for us to compete at the sharp end of the league - so ideally we’d have someone who can ‘link up’ like Wells as competition for him as soon as possible - that would be great.

Wellls also has excellent nous, experience- accumulated. A several years younger version of him would be excellent.. probably not easy to find and not cheaply priced either!

[Bar BS3]

We definitely don't need a "fox in the box" type striker. That isn't the way we play.

What would propel.us to the next level would be a powerhouse front man. One who can drop deep & link play, turn & run at goal, shoot from distance & run the channels to release pressure & enable support to get up to him.

Anyone got £15/20 million knocking around..?!

I was trying to think of the most recent player we've had who'd make a serious impact & I suppose it's Kodia or Maynard - although Semenyo as he is now would obviously be fantastic.

To be fair, even a clone of Famara would be a good addition & help defensively & offensively. 

There just aren't many of these players around & every team wants them.

 

[Redstart]

If Manning is going to continue to sub Nahki at 60 minutes every game, we defo need another Nahki type player to take his place. Current performances post 60 minutes are just not good enough if we are going to push on up the league. 

[Slack Bladder]

This will explain why our strikers have only scored 2 goals in the last 14 games.

I and thought we were just shit

Edited January 5 by Slack Bladder

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

We definitely don't need a "fox in the box" type striker. That isn't the way we play.

What would propel.us to the next level would be a powerhouse front man. One who can drop deep & link play, turn & run at goal, shoot from distance & run the channels to release pressure & enable support to get up to him.

Anyone got £15/20 million knocking around..?!

I was trying to think of the most recent player we've had who'd make a serious impact & I suppose it's Kodia or Maynard - although Semenyo as he is now would obviously be fantastic.

To be fair, even a clone of Famara would be a good addition & help defensively & offensively. 

There just aren't many of these players around & every team wants them.

 

3 on my list albeit with differing characteristics are Cannon, Riis and Yates.

The latter was very good at Blackpool and has a respectable record at Derby, very hard working and quite mobile. In a side with more potential..probably would be useful from set pieces too. In and around prime years.

Not sure on Diedhiou too as he wasn't really a movement player..Kodjia and Maynard were great with it, the latter especially pre injury pre attitude.

The first is on loan at Stoke, may have a break clause. Riis is out of contract as it stands come Summer, knows the level in and around prime years.

[cidercity1987]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

3 on my list albeit with differing characteristics are Cannon, Riis and Yates.

The latter was very good at Blackpool and has a respectable record at Derby, very hard working and quite mobile. In a side with more potential..probably would be useful from set pieces too. In and around prime years.

Not sure on Diedhiou too as he wasn't really a movement player..Kodjia and Maynard were great with it, the latter especially pre injury pre attitude.

The first is on loan at Stoke, may have a break clause. Riis is out of contract as it stands come Summer, knows the level in and around prime years.

We've got to be looking at better than Jerry Yates surely, aging as well

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

We've got to be looking at better than Jerry Yates surely, aging as well

If by aging you mean 28?

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

3 on my list albeit with differing characteristics are Cannon, Riis and Yates.

The latter was very good at Blackpool and has a respectable record at Derby, very hard working and quite mobile. In a side with more potential..probably would be useful from set pieces too. In and around prime years.

Not sure on Diedhiou too as he wasn't really a movement player..Kodjia and Maynard were great with it, the latter especially pre injury pre attitude.

The first is on loan at Stoke, may have a break clause. Riis is out of contract as it stands come Summer, knows the level in and around prime years.

Riis is probably about as good as we could realistically hope for - i know there was talking of a big money move a couple of years ago, so imagine a few would be after him.

I don't know much about the other 2. Yates was decent at lower level - not noticed him since in the Championship.

2 weeks ago I'd have said it would be a waste of money to look at a loan signing, but now we are back in touching distance, it would seem a wasted opportunity to not explore this route for a top young premiership player who needs games. 

I don't think we are going to splash out - but I do wonder if the last 4 results may have changed our view on the merits of adding where it's blatantly needed.

 

[cidercity1987]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If by aging you mean 28?

Yeah I do, getting past his peak and that isn't at our level in any case.

Riis who I think you've mentioned a lot would be much better, higher quality and younger. Dunno if realistic though, probably not

[east sussex red]

Yes but not a big lumbering giant - more a quick fox in the box with an engine who will also constantly press and harass defences.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, City oz said:

Just like Armstrong then. I can't be bothered in looking back now at the original post.

The club needs to do something in this transfer window to create a playoff position. Have we not already had futile signings backed by Tinnion and Liam.

We play one up top. I don't think anyone expects Manning to deviate from that.

Therefore any outright striker that comes in is, if he plays, going to take that position at the expense of our current strike force.

So, for the investment in the new guy to be sensible you have to reasonably expect him to score more than the strikers we have. He has to replace our current goals from strikers as well as improve on that return.

So far our strikers (Wells, Armstrong and Mayulu) have 10 goals between them over 26 league games, from a cumulative xG of 10.0 (so they've scored what you can expect given the chances we've created for them). So that singular up front CF position has, broadly, delivered within the system being played.

So what's that per game? It's 0.38 goals per game. 

Now if you think you can find a player that we can afford, who wants to play for us, can hit the ground running immediately, and will score at least 8 goals in 20 games (assuming he signs before Coventry) - then get him in and sign him up.

But, please show me the last Championship CF winter signing made by any club who got that kind of goal return.

In my opinion a striker would be a waste of money.

Edited January 5 by ExiledAjax

[Kid in the Riot]

12 hours ago, BobBobBobbin said:

The consensus seems to be that we "need a striker" in order to improve. However, my contention has been that no matter who goes up top for us it isn't going to result in more goals as Liam has never built a team where a striker scores a lot of goals. 

This bares out statistically looking at his managerial career. (The data contains other managers and misses the part season at MK and Oxford; because I didn't think it fair to include, but for completeness the top scorers in the Oxford season were a midfielder and winger on 9 goals and at MK 11 goals for Mo Eisa)

Lommel

To be fair to Ugalde, his Gp90 is very good (He's got a pretty good record since too).

MK Dons

 

The standout is Twiney, a 10. Eisa and Parrot were 12 from 28 starts and 8 from 34 respectively, not prolific.

Oxford

Harris got 15, again not prolific and again the stand out is that Brannagan, Rodriguez and Goodhram had 29 between them from midfield

City

Goals shared about again

And again, Anis and Twine look likely to get a very decent G+A number each...

 

So, does a "goalscorer" actually fit into Manning's system? Or, is our "forward" actually a facilitator in his system that will allow a lot of goal contributions from the supporting players like Anis and Twine? 

So when we are pining for your Kone's or Grays or whoever else, should we actually be looking at players like Mark Harris/Jerry Yates who do the dirty work for the technical players in behind?

This has been why I was most annoyed by the decision to loan out SPH. Say what you like about him as the finished article, I think he's the most like a Harris/Yates type that we have...

 

Sticking £5m on a goalscorer isn't going to change much, imo. It's not about that. 

 

I thought it was interesting anyway...

The last two goals I've seen Kone score haven't been poacher goals at all.

More Mehmeti-like, where he's run from deep, cut inside, and finished. 

As for SPH, I'd wager I'm one of the few to have seen him in the flesh for Dundee this season, and no - he's not ready - IMO. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Riis is probably about as good as we could realistically hope for - i know there was talking of a big money move a couple of years ago, so imagine a few would be after him.

I don't know much about the other 2. Yates was decent at lower level - not noticed him since in the Championship.

2 weeks ago I'd have said it would be a waste of money to look at a loan signing, but now we are back in touching distance, it would seem a wasted opportunity to not explore this route for a top young premiership player who needs games. 

I don't think we are going to splash out - but I do wonder if the last 4 results may have changed our view on the merits of adding where it's blatantly needed.

 

In respect of Yates, seems to be a solid pro at this level, Swansea stint permitting.

Unsure what ratio were penalties but I can see why he attracted interest at Blackpool.

Done quite alright at Derby, Goals and Assists, Non Penalties. Think our 3 between them have 9 Non Penalty Goals.

Swansea the big negative.

12 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Yeah I do, getting past his peak and that isn't at our level in any case.

Riis who I think you've mentioned a lot would be much better, higher quality and younger. Dunno if realistic though, probably not

Riis would be quality IMO. Realistic that is  another debate.

Edited January 5 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

We play one up top. I don't think anyone expects Manning to deviate from that.

Therefore any outright striker that comes in is, if he plays, going to take that position at the expense of our current strike force.

So, for the investment in the new guy to be sensible you have to reasonably expect him to score more than the strikers we have. He has to replace our current goals from strikers as well as improve on that return.

So far our strikers (Wells, Armstrong and Mayulu) have 10 goals between them over 26 league games, from a cumulative xG of 10.0 (so they've scored what you can expect given the chances we've created for them). So that singular up front CF position has, broadly, delivered within the system being played.

So what's that per game? It's 0.38 goals per game. 

Now if you think you can find a player that we can afford, who wants to play for us, can hit the ground running immediately, and will score at least 8 goals in 20 games (assuming he signs before Coventry) - then get him in and sign him up.

But, please show me the last Championship CF winter signing made by any club who got that kind of goal return.

In my opinion a striker would be a waste of money.

Valid points & you'd have to assume that any player that could be hoped/expected to be better & give us as near a guaranteed return as we'd hope for, is going to be way out of our price range.

As Mr Pop suggests, Riis possibly.

Cannon looks a good shout but would only be a loan or out of our price range. 

Otherwise an emerging Prem youngster, but that's always going to be a punt.

[Talk Of The Town]

Every club wants a ‘ number 9 ‘ that scores 20 goals per season. The reality is there isn’t many out there nowadays with different formations coaches play.

just looking at top scorers in the championship. Half of the list are wide or attacking midfielders.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As we had and may still have the Top Non Parachute Income, not altogether sure why certain players are de facto out of reach. Within reason.

Club or SL imposed yes would say so 

[Bar BS3]

11 hours ago, CosmosUK said:

Always said this from the minute we signed Armstrong, I don’t think a championship clubs scouting department (even one as inept as ours) thought for a minute that would be adding 15+ a season, however I think the consensus was that he would make the surging runs with pace that would open space for deeper lying players to get into the box and score from. 
 

As it happens he’s turned out (again my opinion) to be a very very lazy player who whilst blessed with great speed and physical attributes doesn’t use them to his advantage enough.

I do think the plan was always to spread goals around the team with Twine being the centre piece in that, and his injury problems at the start of the season curtailed this somewhat 

I think if SA can produce the sort of performance he did away at Hull on the opening day, then there is definitely a place for him in the team.

I think we have improved our support play as the season has progressed & could benefit from those kind of unsettling runs from deep, with AM & ST picking up the pieces around him.

If we take the pressure off him of expecting any goals & just instruct him to go out & cause havoc to the opposition defence, he could be quite a handy weapon.

Not ideal or perfect - but to get the most out of what we've already got here.

[Bar BS3]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As we had and may still have the Top Non Parachute Income, not altogether sure why certain players are de facto out of reach. Within reason.

Club or SL imposed yes would say so 

Because it's those parachute payment clubs that will outbid us for anyone that's good enough to be what we want or need.

Mopping up what's left that they don't want is what's got us where we are now. 

How do we break that cycle..? I don't know.

You only have to look at Luton to realise that just grabbing 1 season in the prem doesn't then turn you into one of the big boys of the Championship.

There is alot to be said for SL's slow but steady build strategy- however frustrating it might be.

You can't argue that, although currently not quite enough, we have improved, slightly, season on season, for the past 4/5 years.

It's slower than many would like & who knows if it will ultimately lead anywhere, or if 8th is our ceiling.?