Guest WillsbridgeRed Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 "Standing terraces in England were phased out in 1989 after Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster. During an FA Cup semi-final match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, ninety-six Liverpool fans were killed because of over-crowding. However, unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths." But hang on, surely the fact that huge metal fences stopped people escaping and poor policing stewarding are to blame, rather than people standing up - The same would have happend in a all seater stadium, maybe worse "The Taylor Report recommended that all top division stadiums in England and Scotland phase out their concrete terraces and become all-seater. The result of this report has seen millions of pounds spent by every top club in these countries on developing their grounds. While many fans have complained that the elimination of the standing terraces has ruined the atmosphere at matches, it seems clear that all-seater stadiums are far safer as it is easier to manage spectators if each ticket sold is for a specific seat." Well surely this means that if games are made all ticket in terrace areas they'd be just as managable as seating? Make the terrace members only and you have a complete record of people in that stand. "All-seater stadiums have resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence inside football grounds have become almost non-existent. In addition, arrests for football-related crimes have reduced dramatically since the late 1980's whilst attendances have risen steadily. " Or could that coincide with the whole Rave scene mellowing alot of "boys" and CCTV making crowd trouble in stadiums a certain way to get arrested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest twaters Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 A very informative piece thanks willsbridgered, there are some really obvious solutions to all this. Firstly we know how many fans are allowed into the East end bacause there are seats there now. If you allow the same number then everyone will have the same, probably more room once the seats are removed. Secondly you could fix a counter on each of the three turnstiles (i could do this) and link them up so that everytime that turnstly moves it goes up one. link that to a tv and have fixed above the entrance steps a tv showing EXACLTY how many seats are remaining. When it is getting to the last hundred tickets the stewards simply stand behind the the cue and tell people who wish to enter the stand is sold out. I appreciate this is all done for our saftey. Thank you, but now is the 21st century and we have the technology not to allow the Hillsborough disaster to happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bow_Legged_Chicken Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 yep exactly my thoughts. We can send probes to mars, we can walk on the moon, we can fly hundreds of people thousands of miles within a couple of hours. but we can't figure a way of housing fans in terracing safely. The real truth of the matter is, the F.A and the clubs don't want it because they want to look good to all the other clubs, and F.A saying look at our stadia. They don't want terracing so they will use anything and everything to stop it from happening, and at the end of the day they got all the power. Which is all wrong, as football is a entertainment sport, to entertain us, the fans. Meaning if us the fans would prefer standing why shouldn't we be allowed it afterall this who thing is made for the sake of us, isn't it? Why should the F.A decide what we are and are not allowed? Its time the fans, who make this sport possible get more of what they want, and time they get more of a look in. Because in my eyes this current F.A is all about looking after themselves and the big boys, which ultimately make themselves look good. i can pick a million and one faught with this F.A and all would ultimately come down to them wanting themselves to look good to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BCFC Matt Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Football nowadays seem to cater for everything that fans want with Executive boxes, buffets,concerts, fireworks etc all apart from standing - why? If the authorities and clubs etc decided to actually think about it, there are simple soloutions that just need to be discussed and then implemented. It is about time the authorities gave football back to the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest city slicker 71 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 A very informative piece thanks willsbridgered, there are some really obvious solutions to all this. Firstly we know how many fans are allowed into the East end bacause there are seats there now. If you allow the same number then everyone will have the same, probably more room once the seats are removed. Secondly you could fix a counter on each of the three turnstiles (i could do this) and link them up so that everytime that turnstly moves it goes up one. link that to a tv and have fixed above the entrance steps a tv showing EXACLTY how many seats are remaining. When it is getting to the last hundred tickets the stewards simply stand behind the the cue and tell people who wish to enter the stand is sold out. I appreciate this is all done for our saftey. Thank you, but now is the 21st century and we have the technology not to allow the Hillsborough disaster to happen again. Solid point and a good thread. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest december 1963 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I'm finding myself very much on WillsbridgeRed's side today - a well researched piece this. The key thing, as is said, is that it is not standing per se which is the problem, it is overcrowding and the inability of people to get out of the overcrowded area (i.e onto the pitch). We won't change the law by debating on here but it raises an interesting aspect of the British character - a problem occurs, we employ a very expensive person and a catch-all solution is invented to apply to everything. The problem occured in a semi final in Sheffield, with Liverpool supporters. So..... let's come up with a solution which has to be applied to Crewe and Walsall. Yes, that sounds sensible. All of us can instantly see the sense of that can't we ? Another of my favourties relates to 1963 - we've found some railways branches which aren't paying their way so lets stop them up and rip up the track and build houses on them so that, when in 40 years time we find that railway branches are "a good thing" it will cost 10 times more to re-open them than had they just been mothballed. I wonder if Lord Beeching ever travelled on a branch railway, just like I wonder if Lord Justice Taylor ever went to a football match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I agree with all the above but there is one point that was missed. Yes you could make all games all ticket and as such make sure that only the correct amount of people enter but that was the case at hillsborough. It was the amount of people trying to enter the ground at the same time through the same turnstiles that caused the problem( a lot of them without tickets). However, with seating you can insure that all the fans are spread out and not all in the same area ie behind the goal. With terracing fans are free to move about which can leave you with a lot of fans gathering in the same area and causing a hazard. I'm not trying to spoil the idea of terracing because i miss it as much as everyone, just trying to add a valid point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Actually, you're wrong about the cause of the Hillsborough disaster. You say that no large gates were opened, but, in fact, the problem was caused by plod opening an exit gate, allowing the crowd that had gathered outside the ground to all go in at once, ending up at the top of the middle terrace at the Leppings Lane end. The people in the front of that pen died. There was a turnstile system letting people in slowly but, due to pressure outside the ground, the order came to bypass it. However smart you all are at devising systems which stop a tragedy happening when they are operational, if someone stops them working, they won't work. Lord Taylor appreciated this and insisted on seating, which, however many people you let in, won't lead to the crush seen at Hillsborough. I'm 6 foot 1 and was always able to find a good view from the terraces, I'd still be standing there now if I could. But, as someone who was living in Liverpool at the time of the tragedy (2 of my friends climbed out of the pen in which people died just before the surge cos one of them is a short arse and couldn't see) I welcomed anything that would stop it ever happening again. Shame, but there you are - live with it, at least you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 "The Taylor Report recommended that all top division stadiums in England and Scotland phase out their concrete terraces and become all-seater. There's lots of good points here but to me this is the key point, not just of Taylor but all these reports. They RECOMMEND, now I don't know about you but to me that has always meant a "suggestion" an "idea for improvement". It's not a law or set in stone, it should be open for discussion and a decision made over whether it is excepted. It's an easy option for authorities or governments to say "well the report says we have to do this", and pass the blame. It should never been allowed to happen, but we will have a very large struggle to get it changed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcityup Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 For respect for those who died at Hillsborough and there families, and having seen plenty of graphical details of the inccident, standing areas in my opinion should be abolished at every single nationwide club to prevent an event like that ever happening again whatever the reasons for the occurance.. Whenever I goto a city away game and have to stand, especially sometimes crowded and sqaushed together with some nutters who cause trouble and say they support City, it always goe's through my mind what it must have been like for those fans who lost there lifes. When I'm seated I feel alot safer for me and the other fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest twaters Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 You have to say though that Ashton Gate and The East End certainly dont have the problems you have listed as possible dangers. I doubt / hope we never re introduce fencing at the front of our stands, this ruins veiws and isnt very plesant. Therfor we would have a very easy escape rout via the pitch through which "god willing we would never have to use" fans could spill onto in order to escape any over crowding. Secondly the size of the eastend if it were used in the same manner as last night means only a maximum of 2000 supporters could come in anyway, with that few a number stewards could keep an accurate eye on congestion etc. Technology is ripe now adays and as the person said previously, computers count how many people are in the ground, and could accurately identify how many people are in that half of the east end. In response to the reason the Hillsborough disaster occured, well it was apperently because someone opened a gate in order to let fans in without tickets, Th East End has one gate in its rear and this would (if the design was the same as last night) Infact be out of bounds for both home and away fans therefor allowing no one access under any circumstances. The plus points are plentyfull, from the club perspective the gap in the middle would be ideal for police and stewards. My final point may come back to kick me in the teeth, but i am sure Colin and a few others wil be thinking this. There are a few mindless idiots that go to city and the east end would probably there favoured spot, however i think this would create a great oppertunity to wiggle them out, its a small space and cameras could be easilly installed, aswell as the 18 or so cameras we already have around the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcityup Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 and sorry if I could just add the supporters who insist on standing in seated areas and dont listen the saftey announcments should be ashamed of themselfs and perhaps respect those who lost there lifes at Hillsborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest twaters Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 bristolcityup i appreciate and know what you are saying. I went to Brentford in the play offs a while back and remember feeling pretty scared standing right in the middle behind the goal. However i also remember feeling extreemly satisfied when a steward came up to me and my younger brother and said would you like to move to another area. We consiquently moved to the side stand. I think we should have the choice. I totally agree with you that we should do everything to stop that kind of thing happening again. But even seating has draw backs. Imagine a fire breaks out below a seated stand or there is an explotion. The escape access is terrable in the dolman and for all those people to escape would be a disaster. Trying to go down a seated row with people sat down, imagine the mayhem if everyone was trying to get out at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcityup Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I do completely agree with your last point there aswell, i guess it could go both ways, but yeh if a fire broke out or something that could be a danger. I'm realising that lots of people have strong and different opinions on this so it would be interesting if it came down to a vote to bring back standing areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest twaters Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Yes that would be very interesting. I'm sure alot of people feel exactly the same as you do, and i suspect that even though it may not seem so here, alot of fans would not vote in favour of terracing. However i hope that people also feel that it would only be a small section of ashton gate, and would be run to excellent high standards of safety. (God Willing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFChris Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I am sure more people have hurt themselves from celebrating a goal on the seats, than have hurt themselves celebrating when stood! If a terrace was designed properly with staggered "crash barriers" I am sure it would be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
England Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 If the subject of standing was ever again put to a vote the vast majority would vote for seating - by standing you put yourself and others at risk. The reasons for deaths at football are numerous and varied but to absolve all the supporters of blame when some arrived late, without tickets, charged the gates and forced the decision to open the gate is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fct Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Also the Hillsborough incident must be put in its proper context; football in the late 80s was going through a very hard time what with hooliganism (Millwall fans rampaging at Luton for one) the Bradford fire that burned down a stand and a lot of fans at the same time, the Heysel Stadium incident and one or two other unsavoury tings. It was in an effort to actually DO something to make the game SAFE that the Taylor report was done, for everyone's sake, whether they appreciated it or not. Having so many deaths in such a short amount of time had made all fed up with it and they all desperately wanted to take positive ction to ensure fans' safety. If a similar series of accidents occurred in, say, the rail or air industry, yo'd be damned sure people made improvements to the safety systems in both those areas, so football had to have a change. Its significant that since the Taylor report's implementation no such disaster has occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pogue mahone Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 absolutely right fct, in many ways the taylor report actually saved football in this country which at the time was going down the pan and being attacked from every angle. in those days supporters were treated as the lowest of the low and the tories wanted to introduce the id card. it should also be pointed out that out of 76 recommendations in the taylor report only 4 were about seating/terracing. in a properly controlled situation of course there is nothing wrong with terracing. unfortunately most football clubs and plod are not able to control a situation properly. personally i would not wish to stand on a terrace anymore for the simple reason that the sightlines from new stands are better than terraces (simply because they are computer calculated) and nearly always unobstructed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest g_funk Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 IT'S ALL MONEY! IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IF THEY PUT TERRACES BACK, THEY WOULD HAVE TO DROP THE PRICE BY £3 - £4 PER GAME, 23 GAMES AT HOME IN A SEASON AND JUST AS MANY FANS, THEY WOULD LOSE ABIT WOULDN'T THEY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pogue mahone Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 actually g-funk, if ticket prices pre-hillsborough were in line with inflation you would still be able to watch chelskov for approximately £8 instead of £40. it would be about a fiver to £6 to watch us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud55 Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Just read this as my internet has been down for a bit. The problem at Hillsborough was mainly down to the terracing. Standing is perfectly safe and had the stand been designed properly it would have never happened. Pictures of the whole stand show clearly that there were masses of space on either end of the stand, most terraces have the mettal bars designed to filter out the crowd into all areas of the stand to stop people surging into the centre of the stand, Hillsborough did not have this, it was just a completely open terrace, had anybody actually thought about this during the design process, the same bars that have been in place in lower league grounds for god knows how long, then the disaster would not have happened. It was a fundemental design flaw that caused the Hillsborough disaster not the terracing it's self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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