ciderup Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The only trouble yesterday was caused by the police not fans.:noexpression: They get paid pretty well and hold clubs to ransom and for that a higher level of service should be expected.In any case even if City fans were forced to use id we would still be subjected to the same policing as yesterday as huge police operations still follow Cardiff, Millwall and Stoke about. It solves nothing and simply makes watching your club even more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zider_head Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I hope not, why should the average Joe be made to go to such measures for some idiots ?If the Police / Club did the job properly it would be a issue anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 It would half away attendances just like it did to Stoke's because you can't decide to go on a whim. It would not prevent trouble makers who can still attend the game by buying home tickets and can still travel even if they don't attend.In short, a terrible idea that solves nothing and persecutes the majority who have done nothing wrong. Just like most nanny state measures.What we need it proper policing where they identify and prosecute offenders instead of herd innocent fans like cattle and brutalise them.That's probably too difficult for the subnormal IQs present in most police forces these days unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion!No discussion. don't be stupid :noexpression: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowleUtd City Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion!Just because you've got the hump with a few lads beered up swearing in front of your son yesterday, what did you expect?? we were taking 3k away for a game in london which is attractive for the lads to go on the lash. It's been the same for ever and a day and it always will be, either tell your son that it's what happens at football but it's not acceptable from him, or don't take him to certain games! don't bleat about ID cards etc, nobody would want that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zider_head Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I can never understand why Parents take kids to footie then moan about swearing or give you evil looks, I mean if you got a issue go sit in the family enclourse (which is what its designed for) and if you have a issue there report it to a steward who i doubt will do much but all the same least you have a argument then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecko Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Don't be a #### mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamon Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 It would half away attendances just like it did to Stoke's because you can't decide to go on a whim. It would not prevent trouble makers who can still attend the game by buying home tickets and can still travel even if they don't attend.In short, a terrible idea that solves nothing and persecutes the majority who have done nothing wrong. Just like most nanny state measures.What we need it proper policing where they identify and prosecute offenders instead of herd innocent fans like cattle and brutalise them.That's probably too difficult for the subnormal IQs present in most police forces these days unfortunately.They (OB) have no respect for the paying public and are armed with too much power which is regluly abused when it comes to dealing with football supporters.Time some of these draconian powers were removed from the OB.Whats needed is two-way respect and there was none on show yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Just because you've got the hump with a few lads beered up swearing in front of your son yesterday, what did you expect?? we were taking 3k away for a game in london which is attractive for the lads to go on the lash. It's been the same for ever and a day and it always will be, either tell your son that it's what happens at football but it's not acceptable from him, or don't take him to certain games! don't bleat about ID cards etc, nobody would want that!I haven't got the hump atall! it had been mentioned on another forum so I thought it would be a 'point to discuss' on here!it seems that you cannot post on here without getting abused now! FYI I would be against it as it would stop people travelling when they may decide to go on the day of a game!Prat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowleUtd City Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I haven't got the hump atall! it had been mentioned on another forum so I thought it would be a 'point to discuss' on here!it seems that you cannot post on here without getting abused now! FYI I would be against it as it would stop people travelling when they may decide to go on the day of a game!Prat!Where have I abused you chief?You clearly said in other threads that you were not going to bother going away any more because of drunk fella's swearing in front of your boy yesterday, and now you start a thread about ID cards. That would suggest that you are none to happy? (ie got the hump)If you don't like it don't take him to certain games - easy.ps - thanks for the prat remark especially as you bothered to type 'you can't post on here without getting abused' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolman Block B Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The only trouble yesterday was caused by the police not fans.:noexpression: They get paid pretty well and hold clubs to ransom and for that a higher level of service should be expected.In any case even if City fans were forced to use id we would still be subjected to the same policing as yesterday as huge police operations still follow Cardiff, Millwall and Stoke about. It solves nothing and simply makes watching your club even more difficult.Proper.Like a young copper told me,"I'm on £60 a hour to police this today"Treble time for the met plod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Where have I abused you chief?You clearly said in other threads that you were not going to bother going away any more because of drunk fella's swearing in front of your boy yesterday, and now you start a thread about ID cards. That would suggest that you are none to happy? (ie got the hump)If you don't like it don't take him to certain games - easy.ps - thanks for the prat remark especially as you bothered to type 'you can't post on here without getting abused'I posted on the other thread about swearing,yes! That was unfortunate but I have been watching City long enough to expect that! I wasn't happy about people trying to step on my nipper in order to go and abuse the QPR fans or the reaction of the stewards!I apologise for calling you a prat!The ID card was purely for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grove park city Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Just because you've got the hump with a few lads beered up swearing in front of your son yesterday, what did you expect?? we were taking 3k away for a game in london which is attractive for the lads to go on the lash. It's been the same for ever and a day and it always will be, either tell your son that it's what happens at football but it's not acceptable from him, or don't take him to certain games! don't bleat about ID cards etc, nobody would want that! Dead right all this total over reaction its football not a womens institute meeting. Queers Parks pathetic support was more interested in mouthing off in typical cockney we are better than every one else fashion,what did their stewards or the police do ? NOTHING the bunch of idiots on the left hand side of the city fans spent best part of the match goading the away fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portishead Red Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I can only assume that you have been following City since the late 90's and that you're quite young (no dis-respect meant).Please explain to me why the need for ID cards? There was very little if any trouble yesterday and at Palace it was just goading and chest puffing (i was at both).The only game there has been fisticuffs was at Wolves...and that was because their lads started attacking innocent City fans.!Have a look at the late 70's and 80's (maybe early 90's) and compare it to nowadays. I have been to nearly every home and away game this season and not seen any serious disorder at any - and i've been drinking with these so called trouble makers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowleUtd City Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I posted on the other thread about swearing,yes! That was unfortunate but I have been watching City long enough to expect that! I wasn't happy about people trying to step on my nipper in order to go and abuse the QPR fans or the reaction of the stewards!I apologise for calling you a prat!The ID card was purely for discussion.No worries mate, I would be annoyed if the same happened to my son, some self policing is needed at times.Up the City! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kieran07 Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 i think its about time they do this as i'm sick of trying to keep my kids out of the way from (sorry to say this)some of are #######s fans who want to start trouble all the time and sorry to say it is are fans who start %99 of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portishead Red Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Where is this "trouble" everybody keeps going on about?????????????????????????????Please, somebody tell me!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 i think its about time they do this as i'm sick of trying to keep my kids out of the way from (sorry to say this)some of are #######s fans who want to start trouble all the time and sorry to say it is are fans who start %99 of the timeI'm sure it's something your kids have all heard before. I remember swear words being said on the playground when I was a nipper so don't see your problem with a few people venting their frustrations at a game. ID cards would be a nightmare situation and it's an absolute non-starter. Look at the great success it's been in slowing immigration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1cityfan_tucks Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The only trouble yesterday was caused by the police not fans.:noexpression: They get paid pretty well and hold clubs to ransom and for that a higher level of service should be expected.Open your eyes mate. There are a small percentage that travel to watch Bristol City with the aim or getting drunk and having a fight. THe most recent game, Palace away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbacktherobin Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Right, how will this help at all?People who want to go the day before the game wont be able to because they might not have this ID. Who are you going to ban? Inside the ground what did these hooligans do? Nothing, so what difference will it make?Look at stokes away support, shocking now. Most people cannt be bothered with the hassle of ID Cards.And no1cityfan_tucks, making people late for the game isnt going to make people happy is it. You treat people like animals and they will respond like animals.Treat them like humans and they will behave like humans.Making people late for the game, hurding them around like cattle etc will make normal people turn nasty. Whos fault was it for the slllllllllloooooooooooooow escort yesterday, the police. The police should have the skills to pick out people that they think will cause trouble. Unless you want to arrest people before they actually do anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Open your eyes mate. There are a small percentage that travel to watch Bristol City with the aim or getting drunk and having a fight. THe most recent game, Palace away!Then eventually they will be convicted, banned and be unable to attend games as they will be breaching their banning order which is a further criminal offence.How would ID cards alter anything apart from creating yet more suspicion and an opportunity for a minority of police officers to abuse their position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scroobs Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion!You need to get a grip on what watching football is about. This is the same person who took there young son to see City at Palace, saw a bit of handbags (and that's all is was) and then vouched never to attend another City away game because his son cried. So I'm quite suprised to see the same guy back here complaining that his son had to listen to City supporters swearing (OMG) at QPR yesterday......I thought you weren't travelling anymore! Might be best if you don't bother in future, your son could end up a nervous wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 You need to get a grip on what watching football is about. This is the same person who took there young son to see City at Palace, saw a bit of handbags (and that's all is was) and then vouched never to attend another City away game because his son cried. So I'm quite suprised to see the same guy back here complaining that his son had to listen to City supporters swearing (OMG) at QPR yesterday......I thought you weren't travelling anymore! Might be best if you don't bother in future, your son could end up a nervous wreck.Indeed, the same guy who actually stated he'd like City fans to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kieran07 Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I'm sure it's something your kids have all heard before. I remember swear words being said on the playground when I was a nipper so don't see your problem with a few people venting their frustrations at a game. ID cards would be a nightmare situation and it's an absolute non-starter. Look at the great success it's been in slowing immigration!by the sound of it your one of the many #######s that cause the trouble i would be great to see the back you and many others my kids are aged 6 and 5 you think thats what they go to see you lot fighting i don't think so they go to support or team its about time you grow up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 by the sound of it your one of the many #######s that cause the trouble i would be great to see the back you and many others my kids are aged 6 and 5 you think thats what they go to see you lot fighting i don't think so they go to support or team its about time you grow upI think you should probably stop making stupid assumptions and exaggerating and then apologize for calling someone a hooligan just because he pointed out that your kids have heard swearwords before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trundle wheel Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I don't think that people should get so wound up over this 'debate'. I guess the point here is that some people actually don't really like the 'hooligan' element and worry about attending matches because it exists. I'm not sure how these cards would work exactly, but isn't it the old case that if you behave, you've nothing to worry about? The days of accepting this behaviour which only seems ok at footie should be long gone. How we get there though is another story and i for one see no problem with this 'debate' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest red ken 2 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion!Wake up and smell the coffee, a form of ID cards were tried at City in the mid eighty's proved unworkable. A certain Mr Bob Twyford (club secretary ex OB) thought they would cure all of the club's ill's, how wrong he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I'd get one. It wouldn't do any harm at all. I go to games, I watch the game, I go home. If I had a card would I get priority for tickets? It's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc_4_life Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I'd get one. It wouldn't do any harm at all. I go to games, I watch the game, I go home. If I had a card would I get priority for tickets? It's a good idea.If we did put this ID card inplace our away following won't be as good as it has been the last few years... and rightly so, why should the rest of us fans do this when theres a minority of hooligans that will still just turn up and cause trouble with ID cards or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 id only like the idea if it said i was 18its pointless sorryif the knobheads are going to get in ...theyll get in...if they want a fight theyll hit the town anyway, it's too big brother for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 You need to get a grip on what watching football is about. This is the same person who took there young son to see City at Palace, saw a bit of handbags (and that's all is was) and then vouched never to attend another City away game because his son cried. So I'm quite suprised to see the same guy back here complaining that his son had to listen to City supporters swearing (OMG) at QPR yesterday......I thought you weren't travelling anymore! Might be best if you don't bother in future, your son could end up a nervous wreck.My personal feelings are totally irrelevant.I raised this topic as 'A POINT FOR DISCUSSION!!. Why do people have to assassinate fans because of previous posts? I am not happy with my nipper being trodden on by idiots,no I am not!Wether you understand my concerns or not, I raised this thread for a DISCUSSION, not an assassination of me! I should not have to justify a DISCUSSION thread. I will, and already have, discussed things with my son, and take umbridge at people taking the liberty of telling me how to bring MY kid up!I have been following City home and away for 34 years! Why should I have to justify myself for bringing up a topic of CONVERSATION/ DEBATE or are you too stupid to understand the concept?Maybe you newbies don't want us long term fans (and their families) supporting City now we are doing OK!I AINT GOING ANYWHERE, THE CITY ARE MY TEAM AND I DO NOT NEED YOUR BLESSING!I apologise for trying to start a discussion on a City discussion forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc_4_life Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 id only like the idea if it said i was 18its pointless sorryif the knobheads are going to get in ...theyll get in...if they want a fight theyll hit the town anyway, it's too big brother for meToo true mucker, too true, the rest of us shoudn't have to be part of this "id scheme" as most people ain't theyre for the fights but there to support the team.... if this ID scheme did get in place i for one will not bother going to away games anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderup Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 Indeed, the same guy who actually stated he'd like City fans to die.I would be interested to see my quote!JEEZIT'S A TOPIC FOR DEBATE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 If we did put this ID card inplace our away following won't be as good as it has been the last few years...Why wouldn't it? If 10,000 bothered to get season tickets, why wouldn't 3,000 bother to get ID cards? Why not issue an ID card as part of the season ticket? Why not make them the same thing?and rightly so, why should the rest of us fans do this when theres a minority of hooligans that will still just turn up and cause trouble with ID cards or not?Because there is absolutely no risk of doing so. If you are arrested at a football match you will be identified to the club. If you are a season ticket holder you will have your season ticket revoked if convicted of a football hooligan related offence. So what harm is there in carrying an ID card? So the hoolies still turn up. They don't get in the ground without the card, they don't get to start any trouble inside the ground and their actions are disassociated with football. The problem then becomes the social one that it actually is instead of being dismissed as football hooliganism.We get too hung up about this "infringement of civil liberties" nonsense, your liberty is only infringed if you infringe the liberty of others. ID cards are used all over Europe without a problem. It's not particularly "big brother", no one is making you do anything. Think of all the information divulged about you just from using a credit card. It doesn't stop you using it does it?God this SuperBowl is boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc_4_life Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Why wouldn't it? If 10,000 bothered to get season tickets, why wouldn't 3,000 bother to get ID cards? Why not issue an ID card as part of the season ticket? Why not make them the same thing?Because there is absolutely no risk of doing so. If you are arrested at a football match you will be identified to the club. If you are a season ticket holder you will have your season ticket revoked if convicted of a football hooligan related offence. So what harm is there in carrying an ID card. So the hooles still turn up. They don't get in the ground without the card, they don't get to start any trouble inside the ground and their actions are disassociated with football. The problem then becomes the social one that it actually is instead of being dismissed as football hooliganism.We get too hung up about this "infringement of civil liberties" nonsense, your liberty is only infringed if you infringe the liberty of others. ID cards are used all over Europe without a problem. It's not particularly "big brother", no one is making you do anything. Think of all the information divulged about you just from using a credit card. It doesn't stop you using it does it?God this SuperBowl is boring.Good points, although i still don't think we should go through it because of a few hooligans and the coppers playing up....The id cards might stop the hooligans at city away matches but what about some of the coppers who behave as if every one of the traveling cider army is a hooligan? Superbowl is confusing me don't know the rules or owt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Good points, although i still don't think we should go through it because of a few hooligans and the coppers playing up....The id cards might stop the hooligans at city away matches but what about some of the coppers who behave as if every one of the traveling cider army is a hooligan?They wouldn't do that, they'd ask if you had an ID card, if you couldn't produce one they'd bash you repeatedly on the head with a big truncheon (or baton I think the trendy ones call it, either way it is more effective than a baseball bat) whilst you plead that it was in your other jacket which is at the dry cleaners. They would of course be disappointed because half of the police force, the Met especially, are hooligans themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc_4_life Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 They wouldn't do that, they'd ask if you had an ID card, if you couldn't produce one they'd bash you repeatedly on the head with a big truncheon (or baton I think the trendy ones call it, either way it is more effective than a baseball bat) whilst you plead that it was in your other jacket which is at the dry cleaners. They would of course be disappointed because half of the police force, the Met especially, are hooligans themselves. Do i dare go to cardiff away??!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc_4_life Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Like all areas in football and outside of football.Bringing in laws to stop people that have disregard for the law anyway solves nothing.It simply hits the people who abide by the law and will destroy any idea of City getting decent away followings to games.Football matches and motorists - the police rake it in from both.Nail on the head there mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Why wouldn't it? If 10,000 bothered to get season tickets, why wouldn't 3,000 bother to get ID cards? Why not issue an ID card as part of the season ticket? Why not make them the same thing?Stoke and Millwall both experienced massive drops in away support after introducing similar schemes. Many supporters who travel away aren't season ticket holders (there are plenty who really only go to away games due to their location for example.)Because there is absolutely no risk of doing so. If you are arrested at a football match you will be identified to the club. If you are a season ticket holder you will have your season ticket revoked if convicted of a football hooligan related offence. So what harm is there in carrying an ID card? So the hoolies still turn up. They don't get in the ground without the card, they don't get to start any trouble inside the ground and their actions are disassociated with football. The problem then becomes the social one that it actually is instead of being dismissed as football hooliganism.Fighting outside the ground might not be the responsibility of the club, but it is not disassociated with football at all, it still puts supporters at risk and it still affects how games are policed and how police treat fans. There is also the danger that thugs will buy tickets in the home ends.We get too hung up about this "infringement of civil liberties" nonsense, your liberty is only infringed if you infringe the liberty of others. ID cards are used all over Europe without a problem. It's not particularly "big brother", no one is making you do anything. Think of all the information divulged about you just from using a credit card. It doesn't stop you using it does it?I think ID cards in general aren't a bad idea and I tend to agree that requiring people to be able to identify themselves isn't an infringement of civil liberties but it is a step along a very dangerous path and I don't really see the point for football matches alone because they will solve nothing in that respect and only inconvenience real fans.There are some serious valid concerns about ID cards in general aside from principles. Firstly with the government's shockingly bad record on data security do you really want them putting lots of your data all in one place? Second, given their general incompetence about IT projects, are they even capable of introducing them? Third - quis custodiet ipsos custodes? How do we know a central database will be used only for the stated purposes?I've worked in GCHQ and some of the things the state can do right now are quite scary but at least they're controlled to an extent by the judiciary. The danger I see is that ID cards could be the thin end of another nanny state wedge.God this SuperBowl is boring.I wasn't watching it but I can certainly agree. It is American Girlieball after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 nothing stops hooligans going into the town centre to cause trouble anyway though."Sorry sir you can't use the m5 you don't have a bristol city away travel id card"i believe its a farse, ok it will take time but there will be certain people finding their way around a plastic cards that identifies you as a safe supporter.next idea? monitored chips in the hooligans arms and detectors at grounds...i saw the term civil liberties, one thing will develop into another and we will have the certain issue of infringing on civil liberties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I refuse to go to coach only games, and would not bother getting a membership card. There's no need one, and it's another step toward pricing fans out of football as there would obviously be some cost.Some of my greatest away trips have been spur of the moment things, which would be impossible with such a scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Last season v Swansea was the first coach only trip I'd been on in a while.I was surprised how well run it was to be honest.Kick off was 1pm, went with the old man and my brother in law - we were back at home in Downend by about 6pm I think.Whereas I went up to Scunny bit spur of the moment last year, had the day off, nothing on so drove up to Scunny!What a schithole! And we lost.That's fair enough, at least they're well run, but it's the principle of the schemes that I'm against.We're already filmed non stop at football. No matter where you sit or who with the will be a time where you are filmed. Is this right? Some matches we are forbidden to travel to certain parts of the country, I've seen 40 Stoke turned back at Temple Meads because they were ticketless. Free country?Now a membership scheme would just be another form of control, more information held and more cost to fork out. It hasn't worked for England matches, it hasn't worked for Millwall or Stoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 We're already filmed non stop at football. No matter where you sit or who with the will be a time where you are filmed. Is this right?Perhaps football fans should start wearing burqas to away games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 There are some serious valid concerns about ID cards in general aside from principles. Firstly with the government's shockingly bad record on data security do you really want them putting lots of your data all in one place? Second, given their general incompetence about IT projects, are they even capable of introducing them? Third - quis custodiet ipsos custodes? How do we know a central database will be used only for the stated purposes?I've worked in GCHQ and some of the things the state can do right now are quite scary but at least they're controlled to an extent by the judiciary. The danger I see is that ID cards could be the thin end of another nanny state wedge.You'd think this was true by reading the papers recently. I'm not saying that this is how you base your arguement, I am sure you have plenty of other information to go on, so lets not start a who knows what debate, however, I too work* in a Government Department. They have a shockingly bad record because of the very fact that they are required to keep records about the data they hold about you. If you truly analysed data security you will realise that most of it is stolen from private companies who don't give two hoots about what data they hold and who they give it to or, perhaps more tellingly, who they sell it too. I am having to respond to the knee jerk reaction of the Permanent Under Secretary of State in order to run strict controls on the data holdings that we have and how it is stored. No private company will be doing the same.The truth is that most personal data is lost from credit companies, and by association your High Street bank. Most require that you carry a personal card - much like an ID card - and that it is "secured" using personal information such as your mothers maiden name, or your favourite pet, or your place of birth. This data is useful in the wrong hands because it can be used to create a new identity for someone. You are also required to memorise a PIN number. Does it stop you using the card? No it doesn't because you need to use the card. Is it an infringement of your civil liberties? No it isn't seen as such, but it is far less secure than any Govt scheme is. Is it nanny state? No it is progress. Iris scanners at airports, finger print scanners on laptops. All are part of a more secure enviroment. All are advances in technology. And all of them are an infringement of your freedoms. But they are all bloody useful too.*I say "work" but in truth I spend most of my time on the internet, shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This is far too long a post when you're at work.I'm paying your wages mate, get back to work!!!The work is dull and underpaid. Surfing the internet keeps me sane and therefore more productive. I am making every use of your taxes, believe me. The women in the office are currently doing much the same. They are wittering on and on and on about absolutely nothing. It works for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGPHIL Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 All though you started this topic as a point of discussion, it appears for one reason or another most are against such action. Probably because as many say it would probably prove unworkable. There is however the option (as it seems many games are going down this route) the all ticket option. And before you shoot me down in flames, this would allow the Club the opportunity to refuse to issue tickets if they felt such action was needed. I am also aware that if trouble makers really want to go to a game and cause trouble they would find a way. You do have a come back on whoever purchased the relevant tickets and supplied them to the problem few would be held responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 You'd think this was true by reading the papers recently. I'm not saying that this is how you base your arguement, I am sure you have plenty of other information to go on, so lets not start a who knows what debate, however, I too work* in a Government Department. They have a shockingly bad record because of the very fact that they are required to keep records about the data they hold about you. If you truly analysed data security you will realise that most of it is stolen from private companies who don't give two hoots about what data they hold and who they give it to or, perhaps more tellingly, who they sell it too. I am having to respond to the knee jerk reaction of the Permanent Under Secretary of State in order to run strict controls on the data holdings that we have and how it is stored. No private company will be doing the same.The truth is that most personal data is lost from credit companies, and by association your High Street bank. Most require that you carry a personal card - much like an ID card - and that it is "secured" using personal information such as your mothers maiden name, or your favourite pet, or your place of birth. This data is useful in the wrong hands because it can be used to create a new identity for someone. You are also required to memorise a PIN number. Does it stop you using the card? No it doesn't because you need to use the card.From my experience I'd say the reverse is true - private companies I've worked for have been very careful about what data they hold and the government don't seem to be.I'm doing a contract for a credit reference agency at the moment and the data security is pretty tight. They spend an awful lot of time and money making that the case because they know if they have a theft they will be crucified (because nobody likes them anyway). They are absolutely rigid about only storing what they need to store, for example they don't hold anybody's card details - just a hash constructed from them so that they can uniquely identify a card without having the details that would be of interest to a criminal. They pay people a great deal of money to constantly audit their security practises and review their systems.When I worked at GCHQ (which was 4 years ago admittedly) they held everything because it never occured to them that they shouldn't. It was the default behaviour, just store it. We might want it later. What's the harm? The most recent government data losses have come from CDs going missing in transit between departments and nicked laptops that weren't properly encrypted. In the high profile case recently the biggest problem was not that the CDs went missing which will always happen from time to time, it was that there was information on the CD which should never have been there because it was not required, and that the information was not properly protected (it should have been encrypted with a key shipped separately not just password protected).Is it an infringement of your civil liberties? No it isn't seen as such, but it is far less secure than any Govt scheme is. Is it nanny state? No it is progress. Iris scanners at airports, finger print scanners on laptops. All are part of a more secure enviroment. All are advances in technology. And all of them are an infringement of your freedoms. But they are all bloody useful too.Of course there is no infringement of civil liberties because you can choose not to use a bank card and my bank has never lost my data either.I don't really think that making people identifiable is a civil liberties infringement either (though I wouldn't want to be forced to carry a card or get a producer as it's just an irritant), but as I said it's where that path leads that is the problem.Same thing with the smoking ban - now that's been done and dusted have you noticed how the number of anti-alcohol stories have increased? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Okay, different perspectives on the same thing. I don't see the harm though. Interestingly 2nd PUS has jerked his knee and insisted on full data encryption however the Govt approved software (DataVault) does not allow full encryption. So now we have had no option but to recall all laptops; they cannot be removed from Govt property under any circumstances until a solution is found. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a laptop in the first place doesn't it? If the consensus is not to have ID for football fans then like any system it is, as has been said, unworkable. To vilify someone for suggesting the idea without suggesting a viable alternative is more than a little harsh. What other options are there then to keep the violent minority (majority?) away from the game? My suggestion has always been a safe hoolie area, a warehouse somewhere, where they could fight to the death. Radical maybe, but it would soon lose it's appeal if death was the prescribed outcome. I don't like the fact that violence is still associated with football and that all football supporters are associated with violence. So how do we disassociate ourselves from it? Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Why wouldn't it? If 10,000 bothered to get season tickets, why wouldn't 3,000 bother to get ID cards? Why not issue an ID card as part of the season ticket? Why not make them the same thing?Because there is absolutely no risk of doing so. If you are arrested at a football match you will be identified to the club. If you are a season ticket holder you will have your season ticket revoked if convicted of a football hooligan related offence. So what harm is there in carrying an ID card? So the hoolies still turn up. They don't get in the ground without the card, they don't get to start any trouble inside the ground and their actions are disassociated with football. The problem then becomes the social one that it actually is instead of being dismissed as football hooliganism.We get too hung up about this "infringement of civil liberties" nonsense, your liberty is only infringed if you infringe the liberty of others. ID cards are used all over Europe without a problem. It's not particularly "big brother", no one is making you do anything. Think of all the information divulged about you just from using a credit card. It doesn't stop you using it does it?God this SuperBowl is boring.Our followings would not be as good, in our group of 5 on sat 2 were with us for the night out and came to the football because we were going, they would not have had an ID card so would not have been able to go - all that will happen is more people will go in the home ends. Its not for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Our followings would not be as good, in our group of 5 on sat 2 were with us for the night out and came to the football because we were going, they would not have had an ID card so would not have been able to go - all that will happen is more people will go in the home ends. Its not for me.Cool. So what do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Cool. So what do you suggest?nothing keep it as it is there are no real problems. Soon you wont be able to travel how you like as it will be supporters coaches only. Keep things as it is which 95% of the time are fine. If you don't want kids to be upset by swearing then take them when they are old enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 nothing keep it as it is there are no real problems. Soon you wont be able to travel how you like as it will be supporters coaches only. Keep things as it is which 95% of the time are fine. If you don't want kids to be upset by swearing then take them when they are old enough.Tell that to those that under police escort on Saturday didn't get to the ground until 3.30pm and were initially refused entry even though they had tickets. Alternatively stay blinkered to the problem and delude yourself it will just go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Okay, different perspectives on the same thing. I don't see the harm though. Interestingly 2nd PUS has jerked his knee and insisted on full data encryption however the Govt approved software (DataVault) does not allow full encryption. So now we have had no option but to recall all laptops; they cannot be removed from Govt property under any circumstances until a solution is found. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a laptop in the first place doesn't it?Yep it does defeat the object, the question that I'd be asking here is why store any real volume of data on a laptop anyway? Store the data on a server and use secure VPNs etc when working remotely. Use simple encryption software to store small volumes of data temporarily if you have no connectivity. If you really need a huge database then typically this is for statistical analysis and the data should be anonymized.Bottom line - don't transport around entire databases of real sensitive personal data on laptops Having laptops that are encrypted at the o/s level is nice but not necessary. I think the problem is that the decision makers here are not IT experts and in all fairness they can't be expected to be either. They need better advice.If the consensus is not to have ID for football fans then like any system it is, as has been said, unworkable. To vilify someone for suggesting the idea without suggesting a viable alternative is more than a little harsh. What other options are there then to keep the violent minority (majority?) away from the game?Identify, arrest and prosecute them. It's the only thing that has ever worked. It seems to me the police are expending massive resources preventing football violence and few on catching the perpetrators. The former approach inconveniences normal fans and addresses the symptoms not the cause IMO.My suggestion has always been a safe hoolie area, a warehouse somewhere, where they could fight to the death. Radical mybe, but it would soon lose it's appeal if death was the prescribed outcome. I don't like the fact that violence is still associated with football and that all football supporters are associated with violence. So how do we disassociate ourselves from it? Any suggestions?I don't mind that idea but I doubt it would cut much ice with the bleeding heart liberals. The club has to do whatever it can to relentlessly pursue hooligans and to my mind it's worked hard to that end in recent years, but I think it should be working equally hard to protect the interests of genuine fans and put pressure on the police and the justice system to deal with the troublemakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Yep it does defeat the object, the question that I'd be asking here is why store any real volume of data on a laptop anyway? Store the data on a server and use secure VPNs etc when working remotely. Use simple encryption software to store small volumes of data temporarily if you have no connectivity. If you really need a huge database then typically this is for statistical analysis and the data should be anonymized.Bottom line - don't transport around entire databases of real sensitive personal data on laptops Having laptops that are encrypted at the o/s level is nice but not necessary. I think the problem is that the decision makers here are not IT experts and in all fairness they can't be expected to be either. They need better advice.That was my advice (encrypt data and restrict the o/s to admin) but no-one listens to me, I am but a mere mortal.Identify, arrest and prosecute them. It's the only thing that has ever worked. It seems to me the police are expending massive resources preventing football violence and few on catching the perpetrators. The former approach inconveniences normal fans and addresses the symptoms not the cause IMO.I don't mind that idea but I doubt it would cut much ice with the bleeding heart liberals. The club has to do whatever it can to relentlessly pursue hooligans and to my mind it's worked hard to that end in recent years, but I think it should be working equally hard to protect the interests of genuine fans and put pressure on the police and the justice system to deal with the troublemakers.Yup nice idea, now to put it into practice. As with your encryption argument, the police need better advice. At the moment the resources are ploughed into heavy handed policing in and around grounds. My understanding is that most "meets" are organised away from the ground. And a few late arrivers will put in a few windows of emptying pubs just as a token gesture. It wouldn't take much to infiltrate this. If you and I can pick up on what is going on, a few of the more intelligent in the police service could surely work it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Yup nice idea, now to put it into practice. As with your encryption argument, the police need better advice. At the moment the resources are ploughed into heavy handed policing in and around grounds. My understanding is that most "meets" are organised away from the ground. And a few late arrivers will put in a few windows of emptying pubs just as a token gesture. It wouldn't take much to infiltrate this. If you and I can pick up on what is going on, a few of the more intelligent in the police service could surely work it out?I reckon it's as much about what is politically more palatable as it is intelligence. I think it might be better in the long run to let them have a few rucks so you can get them all on camera with plenty of evidence and locked up doing nice long stretches, but even if the police agreed I'm not sure that would go down too well in the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Tell that to those that under police escort on Saturday didn't get to the ground until 3.30pm and were initially refused entry even though they had tickets. Alternatively stay blinkered to the problem and delude yourself it will just go away.Thats nothing about having ID, there were no problems sat yet there was still a massive police escort - what difference would ID cards have made? The police were a pain and nothing will change that, If i was a holligan then all i would do was buy an ID card to get tickets and leave it at home on the day of the game along with all other id - how many people were arrested on sat or at palace??? as ive said what would the point in ID cards be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 It hasn't stopped Stokes boys traveling! Their youngsters turned up at our place this season! Already we're talking about a £10 fee, something else that was a perk of season ticket holders to be taken away.Add to the fact that there would be "police checks". Do we really want the police to have easy access to a database of traveling fans? We're already seen how they can abuse their powers at Walsall.The whole ID card scheme seems yet another way of sanitising supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Last season v Swansea was the first coach only trip I'd been on in a while.I was surprised how well run it was to be honest.My experience was on the contrary.... a bad example i guess but millwall...i personally looked forward to the game all season and from about october really hoped it would be the game we went up...it was all going well, until we passed reading....the rest they say is history(whichg i should be doing now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thats nothing about having ID, there were no problems sat yet there was still a massive police escort - what difference would ID cards have made? The police were a pain and nothing will change that, If i was a holligan then all i would do was buy an ID card to get tickets and leave it at home on the day of the game along with all other id - how many people were arrested on sat or at palace??? as ive said what would the point in ID cards be?Your points are clearly thought out and well made. I'm not disputing anything you say. What I am asking for is a suggested solution. You intimated that the problem was only a small one ("Keep things as it is which 95% of the time are fine.") I'm suggesting that the experience of away matches at Wolves, Crystal Palace and QPR suggests otherwise. 3 out of 15 matches suggests 20% of matches have an element of serious trouble whether caused by our own fans or the police. If ID cards aren't the solution why not suggest a better one? Doing nothing is not an option, there have been many City fans affected by this whether you want to see it or not. There doesn't seem much point in rubbishing what was only, after all, a topic for debate without giving an alternative answer to a problem which exists.(CJ is at home now and commenting at his own expense because the servers at work have gone into meltdown) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well this thread seems to have died a death with no-one offering an alternative suggestion to the ID card for away travel. I have a radical suggestion......If you are sick to death of all the posturing between our fans and away fans or our fans at away matches. Or if you are sick to death of the over reactions of local police to situations that you think can be controlled differently then ......... and here is the radical bit .......... why not speak out?Report the offender to the appropriate authorities. The police have a complaints department, how many people who have complained on here about their actions have ever actually filed a complaint? How many people have seen an act of "hooliganism" (sic) and reported it? Take a description, a time and location of an incident and shop the b*st*rds.Worried about being seen as a "Grass"? Worried about what you've seen on The Football Factory? B*ll*cks to that, it is all b*ll*cks. If you are a witness to an offence it is your duty to report it. Tell a steward, tell a police officer or write to the football club involved, or write to the police.Do you want to be herded like an animal at every football match you go to? If so then carry on, you probably think it makes you look big and clever too. If that is the case there is no hope for you. If like me you are sick of it, and sick of its' association with Bristol City Football Club and to football in general ........ then report it. If 10,000 of us do this then something will have to be done. If ten of us do it will be progress.I may not have had much support on here, but believe me I have had several private messages supporting this view and saying that something must be done. Well DO IT!! It can be done privately and anonymously too.Ready to be knifed in the back over this one.Have a read of thisOver to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cockney dave Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Are we getting to the point where we should be looking at an ID card system for away travel similar to the Stoke City fans?It would certainly stop the trouble makers.just a point for discussion! No! We are getting to the point where some of our so called away fans should look at themselves and see what a disservice they are doing to our club.They are costing the club a lot of money virtually every game.A lot of people are put of with the big mouth louts who think they are all Mr Bigs.I don't like being herded like sheep on away games,but when you see the loud mouth so called tough guys you can understand why.Why don't they sod off and let the real fans enjoy the football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frome Valley Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well this thread seems to have died a death with no-one offering an alternative suggestion to the ID card for away travel. I have a radical suggestion......If you are sick to death of all the posturing between our fans and away fans or our fans at away matches. Or if you are sick to death of the over reactions of local police to situations that you think can be controlled differently then ......... and here is the radical bit .......... why not speak out?Report the offender to the appropriate authorities. The police have a complaints department, how many people who have complained on here about their actions have ever actually filed a complaint? How many people have seen an act of "hooliganism" (sic) and reported it? Take a description, a time and location of an incident and shop the b*st*rds.Worried about being seen as a "Grass"? Worried about what you've seen on The Football Factory? B*ll*cks to that, it is all b*ll*cks. If you are a witness to an offence it is your duty to report it. Tell a steward, tell a police officer or write to the football club involved, or write to the police.Do you want to be herded like an animal at every football match you go to? If so then carry on, you probably think it makes you look big and clever too. If that is the case there is no hope for you. If like me you are sick of it, and sick of its' association with Bristol City Football Club and to football in general ........ then report it. If 10,000 of us do this then something will have to be done. If ten of us do it will be progress.I may not have had much support on here, but believe me I have had several private messages supporting this view and saying that something must be done. Well DO IT!! It can be done privately and anonymously too.Ready to be knifed in the back over this one.Have a read of thisOver to you.Fans who are banned cannot travel and commit an offence if they do. The police have wide ranging powers to prevent banned fans travelling.Radical is not needed just proffessional and consistent policing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Fans who are banned cannot travel and commit an offence if they do. The police have wide ranging powers to prevent banned fans travelling.Radical is not needed just proffessional and consistent policing..... but a bit of help from a law abiding general public is not really radical more community spirited. The term radical was being used sarcastically. I apologise for that. It is the lowest form of wit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 ID cards are a bad idea and will cut the away following.with comments like Scroobs below about the police, why is it i should be pushed in tospending more money (on top of my season ticket, away ticket and travel costs) foran ID card when the club have our season ticket details ie: eastend fans and whyshould i have an ID card if the away from home problems are kicked off by police??nothing happens at ashton gate with police or away fans so it not needed.no thank you........QUOTE (Scroobs @ Feb 4 2008, 10:48 AM) I live in London. I also happen to live with a policeman who is joined to the TSG. He also happened to be working the game on Saturday. He told me the police actions on Saturday was totally OTT. He works a lot of grounds on Saturday's.......Millwall, Charlton, Chelsea, Tottenham. Apparently another group of TSG were pulled from the Tottenham v Man U game on Saturday as the potential for trouble at Loftus Road was far greater than White Hart Lane. He admitted he'd never seen his group out in such numbers and again agreed that a lot of the problems on Saturday were caused by the police.He did say that he'd spoken with a couple of City supporters and said to them what he'd told me. Apparently they asked him who he supported........he in-fact supports Chelsea, but living in the same house as him over the years I have converted him to be also a Bristol City supporter. Also let me just say he is not your average Police Officer (meaning the thug type) he is joined to the TSG but is due to leave soon because and I quote "I can no longer put up with the TSG's thuggish behaviour" (the TSG are the officers that are dressed as if they're going to war). Says it all really - and I'll tell you he also comes home with some quite un-believable stories of the kind of things his colleagues get up too. He came home on Saturday soon after I got in from Loftus Road and told me all - btw, and for the record, the escort that you got from O'neils/Walkabout were the TSG that were drafted in from White Hart Lane. Apparently that particular team of the TSG (remembering they always work with the same team) are the biggest bunch of thugs to walk the earth...........that was his words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lita For Congo Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 If we got ID cards, that would be the end of our amazing away following. I wouldn't bother going to half the away games i go to a season as it would just be too much trouble. Its a bit like the east end. Fair play to the boys thats in their, but for me, a bit of a lazy 'un, it was too much messing about for me to get in their as i needed to sort out a season ticket in their for more than i paid for my normal one. ID cards aren't the answer. Really is a bit of an extreme idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yet again the two points made above say no to ID cards. Fantastic. We've established that.So what do you suggest we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yet again the two points made above say no to ID cards. Fantastic. We've established that.So what do you suggest we do?Nothing! it is fine as it is for fans....3 places where there has been so say problems; wolves, palace and qprboth area's have problems with police, west midlands and the MET are well known for problems.The way those area's are policed IS THE PROBLEM not the fans as the same people are at ashtongate without nothing happening and the police in bristol do not have a great dealto do, why? becuse they don't go looking for things that is not there! both inthe west midlands and london problems started when fans were forced out of pubs (STOPPED SERVING)and bullied towards the stadiums, away fans at ashton gate get escorted in and out withoutfuss and there are no complaints about our police, sorry fella' but this is an old bill problemat away grounds and i'm fed up with it being pinned on the fans.The o'neals pub area was covered in cctv, those fans there just wanted a drink and a drink only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderJar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Nothing! it is fine as it is for fans....3 places where there has been so say problems; wolves, palace and qprboth area's have problems with police, west midlands and the MET are well known for problems.The way those area's are policed IS THE PROBLEM not the fans as the same people are at ashtongate without nothing happening and the police in bristol do not have a great dealto do, why? becuse they don't go looking for things that is not there! both inthe west midlands and london problems started when fans were forced out of pubs (STOPPED SERVING)and bullied towards the stadiums, away fans at ashton gate get escorted in and out withoutfuss and there are no complaints about our police, sorry fella' but this is an old bill problemat away grounds and i'm fed up with it being pinned on the fans.The o'neals pub area was covered in cctv, those fans there just wanted a drink and a drink only.Good.As I have said a few times now, the police add to the problem. Have you reported them?Have a read of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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