Sir Colby-Tit Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, chipdawg said: I didn't mean it with any malice though so it's fine I found it offensive, but if you pay me £80k we'll say no more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, RedRaw said: So what your suggesting is that she blew the unproven 'race' argument and moral stance argument out the water in pursuit of the money......hmmm, interesting No, I think you're suggesting that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Sir Colby-Tit said: I found it offensive, but if you pay me £80k we'll say no more about it. I'll go as high as 80p, a Mars Bar and I'll like all your posts for the next 5 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, Luxo Jr. said: It's definitely not the same thing. The whole reason why racism is so disgusting is that it's discrimination based on things nobody can choose. Her comments were in response to something someone chose to say (allegedly) directly to her - he could choose to keep it to himself if he wished. In its very basic detail, there's very little similarity to your taking of offence and hers. And even if you don't believe it's a comment is racist or should be considered offensive, that's not your decision to make. In very basic detail she happily accepted financial compensation to bring the matter to a conclusion ............... end of story. Why now bring it all up again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, chipdawg said: How am I stereotyping white men? I'm stereotyping the users of this forum, though with the caveat of 'largely' As a white male myself, I feel suitably qualified to make all manner of assumptions about myself How does anyone reach the conclusion that the forum is populated by white males? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Colby-Tit Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, chipdawg said: I'll go as high as 80p, a Mars Bar and I'll like all your posts for the next 5 days Deal, but if I spend the 80p too quickly I reserve the right to sell my story to the Guardian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: How does anyone reach the conclusion that the forum is populated by white males? It's a hunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRaw Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, chipdawg said: I should add that while the investigation appears to be significantly flawed, Sampson has been proven guilty of nothing and if Aluko really had the courage of her convictions she shouldn't have accepted the £80k pay out, but I continue to disagree with your assertion that the comments as stated are not racist 11 minutes ago, RedRaw said: So what you're suggesting is that she blew the unproven 'race' argument and her moral stance out the water in pursuit of the money......hmmm, interesting 6 minutes ago, chipdawg said: No, I think you're suggesting that So, although "Sampson has been proven quilty of nothing", rather than having the "courage of her convictions" in pursuing her racial case, she chose to keep quiet and "accepted the £80k pay out" .......your words fella, seems pretty cut and dry to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRaw Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, chipdawg said: It's a hunch Racial profiling now......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 hours ago, RedLionLad said: She's a lawyer......that explains a few things. 1 hour ago, RedRaw said: She's a lawyer......she knows what she's doing And I thought stereotyping was bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: How does anyone reach the conclusion that the forum is populated by white males? That's a rather racist comment !! I feel the need for financial compensation to ease my disgust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, spudski said: I find her comments 'offensive' because they have an effect on how racism is perceived in this country. It affects everyone. I don't find Jim Davidson or Jethro funny...however...the law of the land find them entirely acceptable, as they wouldn't be able to perform their stand up, and you or me have the choice to pay our £30 and sit and laugh at them. How ironic and hypocritical that they can make a career out of such comments...yet if you or me said it in the street, we'd be had up for Racial hatred. It's complete bollox. I don't agree with what she said...I could be black, white, or any colour...it doesn't matter. What she has implied is wrong. What Sampson said is obviously excepted by British society and law...how else would comics like you mention make a living out of saying such things? Because they say it in joke form...not hatred. However distasteful. Racism is about hatred...not about having a joke with no malice or hatred in your heart. I suspect that Jethro or Jim would fall foul of the law if anyone in the room reported them. But why would you pay £30 to watch either of them then report them to the police? Or, just simply; why would you pay £30 to watch either of them?! But again, it comes down to context Spud. Someone saying it infront of a room full of people who've paid to hear someone say just that isn't going to offend anyone even if it's offensive. You or I saying it on the street probably will and in a public setting What Sampson said is not necessarily accepted in U.K. Law. The standard of proof for criminal investigation is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and it is Aluko (and possibly several others) word against Sampsons. The standard in civil law is balance of probabilities. You shouldn't be precluded from following the latter path just because you can't achieve the former At the end of the day, it's not appropriate for you or I to tell people of other colours what they should and should not find offensive. I'm not offended on a personal level by Sampsons alledged comments because I'm not a black African. But I recognise why others will find them offensive and why they are a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, RedRaw said: So, although "Sampson has been proven quilty of nothing", rather than having the "courage of her convictions" in pursuing her racial case, she chose to keep quiet and "accepted the £80k pay out" .......your words fella, seems pretty cut and dry to me This entire debate is predicated on an original post that was arguing not that there was no proof that MS had said what he said, but that what he had alledgedly said wasn't racist. I disagreed and explained why. My opinion on the morality of whether Aluko should be speaking to the press having accepted the pay out is a desperate matter But A+ for effort chief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRaw Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, 29AR said: And I thought stereotyping was bad I don't know what you mean.........I'd want my lawyer to know what she/he was doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLionLad Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 22 minutes ago, 29AR said: And I thought stereotyping was bad Oh sugar.....I can't say that, can I? Miss Aluko will be soon on my case ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Sir Colby-Tit said: I think racism is probably inherent in all cultures, to differing extents, not just in SA, England, or other predominantly white cultures. For example, I took a train journey in Thailand a couple of weeks ago, with two Thais. They boarded for free, and I had to pay, as I was "farang". Ultimately, we are a tribal species, and I believe this is the root cause i.e. a distrust of "outsiders". But I also believe the world is changing, it's becoming a "global community", and nearly all areas of population are becoming more racially mixed. As far as comedians are concerned, offense is entirely subjective, and if you choose to go and see a comedian you can always get up and leave if the humour is not to your taste. And what is the end result of someone being offended? What is the terrible outcome that we must avoid at all costs? My personal worry is that free speech is constantly being eroded in the name of "sexism/homophobia/racism" etc, and people are nodding their heads and lapping it up. False equivalence to say every culture is racist to some degree. I see a lack of willingness to actually engage with arguments increasingly prevalent in this country. There is a big difference from how a white European would be treated in Thailand compared to an African, most who have issues even traveling around a lot of European countries. You may have been called a name but you would know if you were chased out or arrested for the colour of your skin. Your statement around what is the actual harm shows your lack of empathy. I've rarely seen a white British perso not boil with anger over the notion of their country no longer belonging to them or from immigrants having preferential treatment. Think about being discriminated from a position of authority, like your boss picking on you because he doesn't like your appearance. Free speech when it comes down to it is the ability for one to defend what they have said in the court of law. The government having charges overturned for workers tribunals is an example of where it has really been defended. It's no good to just see it as the ability to say something offensive. Our tabloids have demonstrated the shortcomings in that approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 28 minutes ago, chipdawg said: I suspect that Jethro or Jim would fall foul of the law if anyone in the room reported them. But why would you pay £30 to watch either of them then report them to the police? Or, just simply; why would you pay £30 to watch either of them?! But again, it comes down to context Spud. Someone saying it infront of a room full of people who've paid to hear someone say just that isn't going to offend anyone even if it's offensive. You or I saying it on the street probably will and in a public setting What Sampson said is not necessarily accepted in U.K. Law. The standard of proof for criminal investigation is 'beyond reasonable doubt' and it is Aluko (and possibly several others) word against Sampsons. The standard in civil law is balance of probabilities. You shouldn't be precluded from following the latter path just because you can't achieve the former At the end of the day, it's not appropriate for you or I to tell people of other colours what they should and should not find offensive. I'm not offended on a personal level by Sampsons alledged comments because I'm not a black African. But I recognise why others will find them offensive and why they are a problem Your comments make no sense fella. Both Comedians, or any, would be stopped if what they said was seen as unlawful. Regardless of whether people reported them or not. Comments don't just have to be said on the street either. They can be shared on forums and social media, YouTube etc and still get in trouble. Is their stuff removed? No...Its a joke...so hypocritical. If I share a joke by Jethro on here and say I find it funny...would that be seen as racist, offensive, unlawful? You are right...it is all about 'context'. And imo...this has been taken out of complete context. An Independent board have found him not guilty...it's just her feeling 'offended' and trying to get something from it. You say you're not personally offended...but if it were said to you by a black person, you would be? That's just nuts... You can't allow this kind of attitude to grow...people need to speak out about it, regardless of colour. Soon everyone will be offended for something. Regardless of colour. It just grows and grows and gets out of hand. Society is being broken, by this 'offended' culture. We learn from mistakes of the past...but don't mix them up with humour and being able to laugh at ourselves. It reminds me of the people who want to get rid of all buildings and statues associated with the slave trade...they want to change history and not acknowledge it. Be reminded of the mistakes that were made. The same people who will visit the Colosseum in Rome and the Pyramids in Egypt and stand in awe. History built on slavery and Brutality. One Race over another.Are we going to knock all of them down too and all the statues. I know...lets get rid of museums and books as well. Destroy all evidence...pretend it never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Colby-Tit Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Odysseus said: False equivalence to say every culture is racist to some degree. I see a lack of willingness to actually engage with arguments increasingly prevalent in this country. There is a big difference from how a white European would be treated in Thailand compared to an African, most who have issues even traveling around a lot of European countries. You may have been called a name but you would know if you were chased out or arrested for the colour of your skin. Your statement around what is the actual harm shows your lack of empathy. I've rarely seen a white British perso not boil with anger over the notion of their country no longer belonging to them or from immigrants having preferential treatment. Think about being discriminated from a position of authority, like your boss picking on you because he doesn't like your appearance. Free speech when it comes down to it is the ability for one to defend what they have said in the court of law. The government having charges overturned for workers tribunals is an example of where it has really been defended. It's no good to just see it as the ability to say something offensive. Our tabloids have demonstrated the shortcomings in that approach. I was asking what the harm is from someone being offended, not from being discriminated against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, RedLionLad said: Oh sugar.....I can't say that, can I? Miss Aluko will be soon on my case ! It should be prison for you. Oh crap, on mine too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 If you're from a minority background any offence that has been directed towards that identity will I imagine, been seen as reinforcing discrimination. It's a minfield and I don't expect most people with problems of their own to have the awareness to realise this. As much as you can reinforce people to just avoid bringing up sensitive topics in conversion, little understanding is reached between identities that way. is Sampson a racist? His comments like most in sport were probably in jest but it doesn't take away that they're in a professional environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, spudski said: Your comments make no sense fella. Both Comedians, or any, would be stopped if what they said was seen as unlawful. Regardless of whether people reported them or not. Comments don't just have to be said on the street either. They can be shared on forums and social media, YouTube etc and still get in trouble. Is their stuff removed? No...Its a joke...so hypocritical. If I share a joke by Jethro on here and say I find it funny...would that be seen as racist, offensive, unlawful? You are right...it is all about 'context'. And imo...this has been taken out of complete context. An Independent board have found him not guilty...it's just her feeling 'offended' and trying to get something from it. You say you're not personally offended...but if it were said to you by a black person, you would be? That's just nuts... You can't allow this kind of attitude to grow...people need to speak out about it, regardless of colour. Soon everyone will be offended for something. Regardless of colour. It just grows and grows and gets out of hand. Society is being broken, by this 'offended' culture. We learn from mistakes of the past...but don't mix them up with humour and being able to laugh at ourselves. It reminds me of the people who want to get rid of all buildings and statues associated with the slave trade...they want to change history and not acknowledge it. Be reminded of the mistakes that were made. The same people who will visit the Colosseum in Rome and the Pyramids in Egypt and stand in awe. History built on slavery and Brutality. One Race over another.Are we going to knock all of them down too and all the statues. I know...lets get rid of museums and books as well. Destroy all evidence...pretend it never happened. We're not going to agree and I feel this debate is going off on a tangent. At the end of the day, you don't get to decide what is offensive to Eni Aluko or any other person of colour in relation to race. You might disagree, you might think they're being sensitive, but that's how it is. I have been trying to explain why she might have found those comments offensive and you disagree. That's fine, nobody should be forced to accept another's point of view. But in this case your point of view isn't as important as hers I'm afraid As I said before, her motivation for taking this up again (though I think it was newspapers rather than Aluko that have dredged it up) is another matter entirely, as is her accepting a pay out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, chipdawg said: We're not going to agree and I feel this debate is going off on a tangent. At the end of the day, you don't get to decide what is offensive to Eni Aluko or any other person of colour in relation to race. You might disagree, you might think they're being sensitive, but that's how it is. I have been trying to explain why she might have found those comments offensive and you disagree. That's fine, nobody should be forced to accept another's point of view. But in this case your point of view isn't as important as hers I'm afraid As I said before, her motivation for taking this up again (though I think it was newspapers rather than Aluko that have dredged it up) is another matter entirely, as is her accepting a pay out Perhaps she needs educating then, on what is deemed racism or not ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, spudski said: Perhaps she needs educating then, on what is deemed racism or not ;-) You should send her an email, fill her in on the facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, chipdawg said: You should send her an email, fill her in on the facts! She'd probably cry and get offended ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARJ Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, spudski said: Perhaps she needs educating then, on what is deemed racism or not ;-) As someone of Israeli heritage, I could inform her what actually constitutes racism. I get verbally battered on a daily basis, usually to do with the size of my nose, but I say, take it in your stride and fire back, don't get so childish or offended about things. The bloke made an off colour joke. In no way was it racist. At not 1 point did he refer to the colour of her skin or any racial features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, chipdawg said: It's a hunch Looking at the names of this snapshot of forum browsers how did you form that hunch? Assumption? Unconscious stereotyping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 17 minutes ago, spudski said: Your comments make no sense fella. Both Comedians, or any, would be stopped if what they said was seen as unlawful. Regardless of whether people reported them or not. Comments don't just have to be said on the street either. They can be shared on forums and social media, YouTube etc and still get in trouble. Are their stuff removed? Its a joke...so hypocritical. If I share a joke by Jethro on here and say I find it funny...would that be seen as racist, offensive, unlawful? You are right...it is all about 'context'. And imo...this has been taken out of complete context. An Independent board have found him not guilty...it's just her feeling 'offended' and trying to get something from it. You say you're not personally offended...but if it were said to you by a black person, you would be? That's just nuts... You can't allow this kind of attitude to grow...people need to speak out about it, regardless of colour. Soon everyone will be offended for something. Regardless of colour. It just grows and grows and gets out of hand. Society is being broken, by this 'offended' culture. We learn from mistakes of the past...but don't mix them up with humour and being able to laugh at ourselves. It reminds me of the people who want to get rid of all buildings and statues associated with the slave trade...they want to change history and not acknowledge it. Be reminded of the mistakes that were made. The same people who will visit the Colosseum in Rome and the Pyramids in Egypt and stand in awe. History built on slavery and Brutality. One Race over another.Are we going to knock all of them down too and all the statues. I know...lets get rid of museums and books as well. Destroy all evidence...pretend it never happened. In the instance of statues: the majority of American Confederate statues were cheaply mass produced in the 20th century to reinforce racism and propagate a revisionist history that the civil war was about federal power than racism. Now you tell me here who are the people airbrushing history? Same with Colston whose name was plastered about by merchants who didn't know him to give off the knowledge he somehow gave patronage to city buildings out of his own money, rather than off of the back of slave labour. Those who have controlled the school curriculum and what universities can teach are the only example of whether or not we consume "True History". I can tell you children won't be learning about Olgrave or Hilsborough under future Conservative governments. Considering most Brits knowledge of the Empire and Bristolians knowledge of the Slave Trade, the statues aren't doing a great job. Replace Colston with one of his Slaves and people might actually be interested. When would you have chosen for this cut off period of being offended about things to come into place? Before women's suffer age or Civil Rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 And to be fair there are some ACE names on there mind! @JohnBaileysLottos & @Pork Swordsman take a bow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: Looking at the names of this snapshot of forum browsers how did you form that hunch? Assumption? Unconscious stereotyping? Well I feel like it's a reasonable assumption based on the ethnic mix of th UK, but fine. OTIB is the Benetton ad of Internet forums. We are like a rainbow astride the World Wide Web, our diversity is like a beacon shining in the night of the electronic ether Better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, chipdawg said: is a desperate matter ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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