We Have A Squad With Huge Potential, But....

[numbeast]

Whilst reading the tread about Lee Johnson getting poached I started thinking (never a good sign). Now I am a LJ fan but if he were to leave he could be replaced but what happens if we do have a good season, could we keep hold of the likes of Patterson, Bobby Reid, Josh Brownhill etc?

I think the clubs new found philosophy could handle losing the head coach but if we lost the nucleus of the side it would set us back so badly. We have seen improvements in the likes of Patterson and Brownhill and the reinvention of Bobby Reid but other club will be aware of their improvements and will, no doubt come sniffing about if not in January then in the summer.

It was suggested that Aden Flint had his head turn this summer. He remained a true professional and when called upon played with his typical passion. But I do wonder if the likes of Bobby Reid or Joe Bryan would be able to handle the interest as well as Flint did. This isn't knocking them nor would I begrudge them a move to a lower mid table Premier side, but how, even given a good fee, would we replace them?

In the summer windows last year we brought in a crop of young players who, it would seem are progressing together. This summer we got Eliasson and Diedhiou both of whom seem great acquisitions but need time to "bed in" and those young lads we got last year are showing genuine signs of quality. We will only progress if we can keep this squad together and add quality. If we aren't able to retain  them we'll just go around in circles and be little more than a feeder club to the lower prem/parachute payment clubs. So although I don't  want Johnson to go I'd  prefer that to losing our young guns.

[SDBS36]

Stop thinking 

[numbeast]

3 minutes ago, SDBS36 said:

Stop thinking 

Or you could start perhaps?

[SDBS36]

Not really, don't think Johnson going anywhere nor the squad breaking up

[Simon79]

11 minutes ago, numbeast said:

Whilst reading the tread about Lee Johnson getting poached I started thinking (never a good sign). Now I am a LJ fan but if he were to leave he could be replaced but what happens if we do have a good season, could we keep hold of the likes of Patterson, Bobby Reid, Josh Brownhill etc?

I think the clubs new found philosophy could handle losing the head coach but if we lost the nucleus of the side it would set us back so badly. We have seen improvements in the likes of Patterson and Brownhill and the reinvention of Bobby Reid but other club will be aware of their improvements and will, no doubt come sniffing about if not in January then in the summer.

It was suggested that Aden Flint had his head turn this summer. He remained a true professional and when called upon played with his typical passion. But I do wonder if the likes of Bobby Reid or Joe Bryan would be able to handle the interest as well as Flint did. This isn't knocking them nor would I begrudge them a move to a lower mid table Premier side, but how, even given a good fee, would we replace them?

In the summer windows last year we brought in a crop of young players who, it would seem are progressing together. This summer we got Eliasson and Diedhiou both of whom seem great acquisitions but need time to "bed in" and those young lads we got last year are showing genuine signs of quality. We will only progress if we can keep this squad together and add quality. If we aren't able to retain  them we'll just go around in circles and be little more than a feeder club to the lower prem/parachute payment clubs. So although I don't  want Johnson to go I'd  prefer that to losing our young guns.

Joe was of interest to Birmingham, as was Flint. But it was an unequivocal do one in the case of Joe. Where as Flint had expressed a desire to see what options he had apparently. Both have performed well when called upon. But as a whole, the scenario you have spoken about, is pretty much the business plan moving forward. But I'm more convinced than ever that we will already know who we would want to replace any player that leaves, due to the massive improvement behind the scenes, especially the scouting network. That is the price of success in some ways. It will attract the attentions of bigger clubs. Just be glad other clubs want some of our players, I think! COYR 

[pongo88]

It depends upon whether the players have bought into the SL / LJ project for the future. Money talks but it’s not the only factor.  If City remain in the Championship it would be reasonable for players to want to move to a Premier League team if there was the chance.  It also depends on how the SL lets the City wage structure develop as the players develop. Buying young ish players on relatively low salaries seems to be working, but as they improve their expectations will grow. 

Anyway, LJ has his spreadsheets with lists of players to fill potential vacancies so, if the system works, a player leaving should be easily replaced 

[Lrrr]

LJ said in the fb Q&A that no player is irreplaceable its why he said we have 15 odd staff members working just in recruitment. We have shortlists for every position of players to keep track of as well as likely having shortlists of types of players we don't currently have in the squad incase we're looking for something different or to change formation.  

[awbb]

6 minutes ago, Simon79 said:

Joe was of interest to Birmingham, as was Flint. But it was an unequivocal do one in the case of Joe. Where as Flint had expressed a desire to see what options he had apparently. Both have performed well when called upon. But as a whole, the scenario you have spoken about, is pretty much the business plan moving forward. But I'm more convinced than ever that we will already know who we would want to replace any player that leaves, due to the massive improvement behind the scenes, especially the scouting network. That is the price of success in some ways. It will attract the attentions of bigger clubs. Just be glad other clubs want some of our players, I think! COYR 

Yeah. We can't panic about players leaving, as the money we will want for them ensures that we can sign replacements that if scouted correctly will actually improve us down the road. The theory is good and it might not be the quickest way to the Premier League, but it's the most sustainable way of doing it.

If anyone wants a better idea of how this club is trying to do things, have a read of Soccernomics. It's a horrible book, breaking down football to "moneyball" as best it can (as well as talking with lurid fascination about our own annus horribilius) but it's clearly a bedrock on which the "new City" is being run.

[JoeAman08]

We could become a "feeder" club of sorts but Bristol City seemingly have a plan and price in place for everyone. Think this spares us a bit from losing too many at once. Flint is a good example, he's got a price set and when met he can go. In the case of that position, we don't need a replacement. Anyway, the money we know will be reinvested if need be. 

Anyway, the feeder club thing, I think it's ok to be a selling club. I think most in the division are to someone. The thing with being a selling club with good financial backing is that we don't have to sell for less. I think if you keep an honest dialoague with players they will for the most part understand. Example would be hey Pato, so and so are interested in you. We are asking 8m to talk to you. We think this is a fair price considering the sales of other players similar to you like Jota and Tom Lawrence. 

Maybe not the perfect example as I'm sure it's more complicated but I would expect players to want to be sold for a maximum price. Think if you keep that openness then if a sale doesn't work out everyone knows where they stand. Then if sold, with the backing we have, we know it'll be reinvested into playing staff. I'm sure the club would pay higher wages to someone over 3 years if they've brought in 15m for a couple players. 15m split 3 times(FFP is 3 years) is an extra 100k a week in wages roughly. It can go a long way in this division and imo it is the only way to compete with the PP clubs for certain players. 

[JamesBCFC]

I think what is a likely scenario (particularly with our LB situation) is we bring in a replacement who may be a slight downgrade initially, but an overall upgrade after a year or two.

 

I can see this happening if/when Bryan goes.

IMO Kelly has a higher ceiling than Joe, but right now he is (naturally, given the age gap) a worse player.

Should Joe go in the summer then I could see Kelly stepping up (needs a League 1 loan in Jan first), perhaps rotating with Magnússon initially, then after a year making LB his own spot.

Hypothetically we have a better LB in 2-3 years without it costing us a penny outside of wages.

 

BUT, this assumes Kelly has the right attitude (fortunately LJ said he does in the Q&A), continuing to develop at a good rate, and doesn't suffer a big injury.

[Bar BS3]

The OP makes a good point. It's true. 

You often find teams that fail to get promoted via the play offs, having their stars cherry picked and then failing to do as well the next season. 

THIS is the reason that signings like (like, not specifically them) that the likes of Engvall, Taylor-Moore, Eliasson etc are all part of our set up. They are the next "generation"

The good thing is, that anyone who wants to cherry pick from our team, will have to pay top dollar. This summer has shown our resolve on that front. 

It's too early yet, but if we are around the top places come Easter, it could be our best chance to realise the ambition of many at the club, in a generation. The outcome of any push could shape our future for decades to come. 

 

[JamesBCFC]

5 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The OP makes a good point. It's true. 

You often find teams that fail to get promoted via the play offs, having their stars cherry picked and then failing to do as well the next season. 

THIS is the reason that signings like (like, not specifically them) that the likes of Engvall, Taylor-Moore, Eliasson etc are all part of our set up. They are the next "generation"

The good thing is, that anyone who wants to cherry pick from our team, will have to pay top dollar. This summer has shown our resolve on that front. 

It's too early yet, but if we are around the top places come Easter, it could be our best chance to realise the ambition of many at the club, in a generation. The outcome of any push could shape our future for decades to come. 

 

Didnt we do similar to a side (I want to say Northampton) who had a good cup run in the late 90s?

Not quite the same as a cup run takes less resolve overall than a playoff season.

[Bar BS3]

You'd also have to ask, which clubs would want AND be willing to cough up for, our players, that they'd prefer to be at than here. 

Of course money talks, largely, but players with the right "DNA" will also have an eye on their career (the ££'s will naturally follow, if that pans out well) and their can't be many clubs that are more attractive than what's going on here at the moment. It will take attractive offers, from attractive clubs, to prize our assets away. 

[Bar BS3]

4 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Didnt we do similar to a side (I want to say Northampton) who had a good cup run in the late 90s?

Not quite the same as a cup run takes less resolve overall than a playoff season.

Chesterfield..? Dyche & mercer..? And failed attempt to get Kevin Davis

[JamesBCFC]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Chesterfield..? Dyche & mercer..? And failed attempt to get Kevin Davis

That'll be the one.

I was only 4 when Mercer signed, so that's my excuse for getting it wrong 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Chesterfield..? Dyche & mercer..? And failed attempt to get Kevin Davis

Was mentioned on the radio that in their current state a lot of Chesterfield fans think it started to go pear-shaped when the ref cheated them out of an FA Cup final (lost in semi to Boro).  He never gave a goal that was apparently over the line, meaning a replay that they lost 3-0.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30628270

[Bar BS3]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Was mentioned on the radio that in their current state a lot of Chesterfield fans think it started to go pear-shaped when the ref cheated them out of an FA Cup final (lost in semi to Boro).  He never gave a goal that was apparently over the line, meaning a replay that they lost 3-0.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30628270

Remember it well. They were robbed! 

[awbb]

17 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Chesterfield..? Dyche & mercer..? And failed attempt to get Kevin Davis

Paul Holland as well.

[ukneil]

The other way to look at this is whom out of our current squad and crop of youngsters are good enough for us to be competitive should we make the Premier League for next season or even the one after.  A nicer problem to have! 

[Tipps69]

I would hope that with our ambition recently being backed up by the arrival of young, talented, hungry players that has lifted the quality of our first team & not just our bench / squad players (which I used to think was our way of squad building), it now sends a message out to all of our squad that we are improving & that should be enough to make those players realise that they don’t have to leave us to potentially challenge at the top end of the table.

Compared to many of the clubs in The Championship, we offer complete stability, from an owner who can back the club to whatever extent he wishes, to a stadium that is ready for the next step along with the plans for the training facilities, a manager who is passionate about the club because he feels he has an affiliation with the club & has a clear plan in mind for where & how he wants to progress, to a fan base that has a catchment area that means we could attract fans from many miles around (due to a lack of any real quality competition in the area) & a squad of players that truly seem happy to be playing together & for each other.

Many other clubs are owned by foreign owners who are quick to hire & fire a manager if success isn’t instant & that in turn means that these club have a large turnover of players as any new manager wants his own players in, Just look at Birmingham, if Flint had left for there to play under Redknapp, after all the millions he spent to only be sacked within 10 games of the season, where could of that left Flint for example?

Any player leaving us would be silly unless it was because they aren’t getting enough game time (Engvall or Magnússon for example) or unless it was for a move to The Premier League which none of us could begrudge.

A big factor is also the fact that we don’t need to sell & we can no longer be looked at as an easy touch in the transfer market where clubs can get our best players for peanuts, we seemingly have our valuations of our players & won’t be bullied into accepting deals that aren’t right for us.

And this is something that has only fairly recently been the case.

[Lrrr]

10 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You'd also have to ask, which clubs would want AND be willing to cough up for, our players, that they'd prefer to be at than here. 

Of course money talks, largely, but players with the right "DNA" will also have an eye on their career (the ££'s will naturally follow, if that pans out well) and their can't be many clubs that are more attractive than what's going on here at the moment. It will take attractive offers, from attractive clubs, to prize our assets away. 

Relegated prem teams and those with parachute payments will always have the money to afford any player in this league. If the season were over now (or if players carry on at a similar rate) then I'd expect interest in Pato, Diedhiou, Reid, Flint and Bryan. Others may attract interest but they'd be easier to replace. So just to analyse the selected players....

Pato - Don't think we'd be wrong to demand £5m for Pato if he carries on as he is at the moment, if we get offered less I doubt we'd sell. Well stocked for wingers and Eliasson could well be ready for a greater role, options either attempt to bring in a new first teamer or promote Eliasson and bring in player to develop. 

Diedhiou - Lets take Jordan Hugill as an example here, 12 league goals last season and was on the receiving end of £7m+ offers this summer, if Famara can top his goal tally to say 15 we could be looking at a £10m striker again. I feel we'd have to go outside the club for recruitment in this area as I don't feel we have someone to fulfil his role.

Reid - 'One season wonder' is what many may say if Bobby has a successful season, however how often do one season wonders get signed on by bigger clubs, Kodjia, Hogan (course of a season),  plenty wanted Zohore plus many more. If Bobby can get anywhere between 10-15 this season I'd expect him to have grown past the £5m player LJ said he could be. We potentially have people to fill Reid's boot should he be targeted (Taylor if he can improve scoring rate or Engvall if successful if given a chance) or we could go outside again. 

Flint - We already know there is interest in the league, however in terms of replacement we already have Wright, Hegeler as right sided centre backs, so we wouldn't have to go outside the club to replace him, Taylor Moore will hopefully put in performances for a team in league 1 to want him in January. So could be money in the bank for another deal should he (or another CB be targeted).

Bryan - LJ covered this, Kelly will be viewed as the long term replacement but can he step straight into Saturday/Tuesday football? LJ said Hinds got cramp 20 mins into trying to play Saturday/Tuesday. Role could be shared with Magnússon while he gets accustomed to championship football, so we wouldn't necessarily have to go and sign someone. However should we lose JB I think LJ would have to be close to fainting from the amount offered as he clearly rates Joe very highly.

Basically... What I'm saying with all this is as LJ said our players are replaceable and I don't think we should be too worried if/when other teams come knocking for our players.

[ZiderEyed]

54 minutes ago, hodge said:

Relegated prem teams and those with parachute payments will always have the money to afford any player in this league. If the season were over now (or if players carry on at a similar rate) then I'd expect interest in Pato, Diedhiou, Reid, Flint and Bryan. Others may attract interest but they'd be easier to replace. So just to analyse the selected players....

Pato - Don't think we'd be wrong to demand £5m for Pato if he carries on as he is at the moment, if we get offered less I doubt we'd sell. Well stocked for wingers and Eliasson could well be ready for a greater role, options either attempt to bring in a new first teamer or promote Eliasson and bring in player to develop. 

Diedhiou - Lets take Jordan Hugill as an example here, 12 league goals last season and was on the receiving end of £7m+ offers this summer, if Famara can top his goal tally to say 15 we could be looking at a £10m striker again. I feel we'd have to go outside the club for recruitment in this area as I don't feel we have someone to fulfil his role.

Reid - 'One season wonder' is what many may say if Bobby has a successful season, however how often do one season wonders get signed on by bigger clubs, Kodjia, Hogan (course of a season),  plenty wanted Zohore plus many more. If Bobby can get anywhere between 10-15 this season I'd expect him to have grown past the £5m player LJ said he could be. We potentially have people to fill Reid's boot should he be targeted (Taylor if he can improve scoring rate or Engvall if successful if given a chance) or we could go outside again. 

Flint - We already know there is interest in the league, however in terms of replacement we already have Wright, Hegeler as right sided centre backs, so we wouldn't have to go outside the club to replace him, Taylor Moore will hopefully put in performances for a team in league 1 to want him in January. So could be money in the bank for another deal should he (or another CB be targeted).

Bryan - LJ covered this, Kelly will be viewed as the long term replacement but can he step straight into Saturday/Tuesday football? LJ said Hinds got cramp 20 mins into trying to play Saturday/Tuesday. Role could be shared with Magnússon while he gets accustomed to championship football, so we wouldn't necessarily have to go and sign someone. However should we lose JB I think LJ would have to be close to fainting from the amount offered as he clearly rates Joe very highly.

Basically... What I'm saying with all this is as LJ said our players are replaceable and I don't think we should be too worried if/when other teams come knocking for our players.

I'd be very disappointed with £5m for Pato. Good post otherwise, but based on his performances this season, his importance to us, and as you mention, we're well stocked for wingers, he's worth more than that imho.

[pillred]

2 hours ago, numbeast said:

Whilst reading the tread about Lee Johnson getting poached I started thinking (never a good sign). Now I am a LJ fan but if he were to leave he could be replaced but what happens if we do have a good season, could we keep hold of the likes of Patterson, Bobby Reid, Josh Brownhill etc?

I think the clubs new found philosophy could handle losing the head coach but if we lost the nucleus of the side it would set us back so badly. We have seen improvements in the likes of Patterson and Brownhill and the reinvention of Bobby Reid but other club will be aware of their improvements and will, no doubt come sniffing about if not in January then in the summer.

It was suggested that Aden Flint had his head turn this summer. He remained a true professional and when called upon played with his typical passion. But I do wonder if the likes of Bobby Reid or Joe Bryan would be able to handle the interest as well as Flint did. This isn't knocking them nor would I begrudge them a move to a lower mid table Premier side, but how, even given a good fee, would we replace them?

In the summer windows last year we brought in a crop of young players who, it would seem are progressing together. This summer we got Eliasson and Diedhiou both of whom seem great acquisitions but need time to "bed in" and those young lads we got last year are showing genuine signs of quality. We will only progress if we can keep this squad together and add quality. If we aren't able to retain  them we'll just go around in circles and be little more than a feeder club to the lower prem/parachute payment clubs. So although I don't  want Johnson to go I'd  prefer that to losing our young guns.

much as it pains me to say we are not Barcelona, it is almost inevitable if a club like ourselves unearths a gem it will almost always attract the attention of so called bigger clubs, it just happens we are a chicken and egg club, we have a good player we lose them, we then don't get promotion so we then lose other players, it's been the problem we have had as long as I have supported city what is the answer I wish I knew.

[Lrrr]

41 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I'd be very disappointed with £5m for Pato. Good post otherwise, but based on his performances this season, his importance to us, and as you mention, we're well stocked for wingers, he's worth more than that imho.

Wingers are hard to value, Albert for example was reportedly £6/7m for Villa and others go for less. £5m was admittedly at the lower end of what I'd have predicted though, somewhere between £5m-£6.5m would be a guess. Based of a season and a half of high performances for him you're then looking at £5m-£6m profit which is how we now operate in looking to make profit and repeat process. 

[REDOXO]

2 hours ago, pillred said:

much as it pains me to say we are not Barcelona, it is almost inevitable if a club like ourselves unearths a gem it will almost always attract the attention of so called bigger clubs, it just happens we are a chicken and egg club, we have a good player we lose them, we then don't get promotion so we then lose other players, it's been the problem we have had as long as I have supported city what is the answer I wish I knew.

We really haven't uncovered that many gems that we have sold on for good money over the years

Our biggest problem as a club has been more around buying players, having them on high paying contracts (relatively) and letting them become worthless. 

Our problem has been in some ways that we are to big for division three and to small for divvy two. 

We are currently a medium size club for divvy two, a massive move forward from the neverland of yoyo big club little club cycle. 

We currently have the best crop of young talent since 76! The difference being this time we have a strength in depth that was never available to AD. 

Yes we are going to lose a few on the way and it should be obvious to most Joe Bryan could be an England international if the right club comes for him. I suppose my point is this, we are not talking about the odd Andy Cole or Jim Brennan we are talking about a whole squad of high value players. Perhaps this is the answer and the end to yourchicken and egg scenario. Fingers crossed right?

[Garland-sweden]

The Club works very good. Its a structure and a plan who works. We are improving in all levels. We are not Villa or Boro etc, we have to do it in a different better way. We buy young player cheap, Eliasson, Odowda and so on. 1,7-2 mill cheap? Nowadays, yes. Bryan, Bobby, Vyner and more from academi. Famara the only one we bought big money. We dont have to sell cheap, Flint, Bryan. Think the whole concept is good. Our aim to be establshed and a top team in this division is a plan, and this first season with a team that LJ wants we are going in that direction. Offcause other clubs are interested in our players, we are doing well. Said before its like building a house, we are still building and we do it with no hurry. Its a good place to be in City, as someone said. The whole Club is in positive vibes and it have been a work to come where we are. We have now nearly two teams, one in the cup and one in the leauge, its fantastic. The training and the competition for starting eleven makes the players work very hard. For the first time in many years we rally have a good team, good players in every position. Thats not only luck, thats a plan. We have done good money in our transfers, new stadium, 4 in the table, big crowds. The Club is working very well in and out pitch. Lets surf on the good waves and enjoy! COYR!!!

[bpexile]

5 hours ago, numbeast said:

Whilst reading the tread about Lee Johnson getting poached I started thinking (never a good sign). Now I am a LJ fan but if he were to leave he could be replaced but what happens if we do have a good season, could we keep hold of the likes of Patterson, Bobby Reid, Josh Brownhill etc?

I think the clubs new found philosophy could handle losing the head coach but if we lost the nucleus of the side it would set us back so badly. We have seen improvements in the likes of Patterson and Brownhill and the reinvention of Bobby Reid but other club will be aware of their improvements and will, no doubt come sniffing about if not in January then in the summer.

It was suggested that Aden Flint had his head turn this summer. He remained a true professional and when called upon played with his typical passion. But I do wonder if the likes of Bobby Reid or Joe Bryan would be able to handle the interest as well as Flint did. This isn't knocking them nor would I begrudge them a move to a lower mid table Premier side, but how, even given a good fee, would we replace them?

In the summer windows last year we brought in a crop of young players who, it would seem are progressing together. This summer we got Eliasson and Diedhiou both of whom seem great acquisitions but need time to "bed in" and those young lads we got last year are showing genuine signs of quality. We will only progress if we can keep this squad together and add quality. If we aren't able to retain  them we'll just go around in circles and be little more than a feeder club to the lower prem/parachute payment clubs. So although I don't  want Johnson to go I'd  prefer that to losing our young guns.

We have to keep bringing on more & more young guns like Freddie H &  Shawn McC to lessen the blow if it were to happen.

[TBW]

As long as we get the right philosophy and playing style right then can't help but think of Southampton. Always selling the next player on and always got someone to take his spot.

[Major Isewater]

8 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Didnt we do similar to a side (I want to say Northampton) who had a good cup run in the late 90s?

Not quite the same as a cup run takes less resolve overall than a playoff season.

That was Chesterfield, we bought Dyche , Mercer and Holland from that team.

The problem was that these lads had overplayed during their successful season and never recovered enough to reproduce that form for us .

Indeed Billy Mercer played just a handful of games for us before having to quit the game because of injury.

Very sad story and equally a lesson moving forward.

[cidered abroad]

A football club is exactly the same as any other business or family. It is constantly changing personnel and evolving to suit new conditions.

Thus while the personnel will change, if there is consistency in how it operates, then it will continue to operate successfully.

That is why we have a Head Coach and not an autocratic Manager. That is why large industrial companies like Rolls Royce and football clubs such as Man U, Real Madrid are rarely if ever out of the top two or three.

So, opening poster, our players and coaches will change but if SL has the right people in other positions, then we should be able to continue the progress that began four/five years ago with the new stadium and a clear out of all the deadwood in the playing and coaching staff.