England can/can England win the World Cup?

[havanatopia]

We do not assert ourselves sufficiently on our important opponents because are not there yet maybe in the future; too timid even to wear our home shirt at home. What is that all about? Absolutely bizarre.

[Super]

I wouldn't have a problem if we went to Russia with a young squad. The country would certainly get behind them more.

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, EmersonsRed said:

This is a huge myth. Huge. It's because he can kick the ball so far. He has the 2nd worst dist % in the league at 51%! Only Butland has worse. His average length of distribution is huge though. People see a huge punt with his left foot a couple of times a game and think it's amazing. Below is the stat comparison (I think it's missing the last BPL game as they've shut down)

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2017/2018/jordan_pickford/819/819/3783/34/p|premier_league/2017/2018/david_de_gea/819/819/590/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/wayne_hennessey/819/819/3658/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/petr_cech/819/819/27/31/p|premier_league/2017/2018/simon_mignolet/819/819/790/36/p#distribution_accuracy/avg_distribution_length#total

 

Its meaningless unless you look at the data thoroughly. What is his short passing game like v long? How is he asked to play?

Claudio Bravo passing stats were the highest in the EPL however his long passing game was the worst.

[gow2gooseya]

12 hours ago, TRL said:

Probably not

 

I'd imagine 60% of those youngsters won't even be in the top leagues if you base it on historical stats for under 17's and under 21's making it. Then the decent ones will be bit parts as instant success is required in the premier league so a ready made import will come in.

 

If I were a betting man most of this crop will amount to little in the future. And why we are still basing our game on power and pace at these levels? The standard of technique was massively below other teams they were playing.

 

For me we are still light years away from producing players with the technique to succeed at the full international level.

Well they can star for England then

It will mean Southgate ripping up the rule book that says you cant play for England if you dont play for your club.

And if England shine in Russia, those players could earn their corn at Inter, Real, Bayern and United

 

Just an idea, but it just occured to me, Southgate is in a great position to get us around the problem of these players never featuring for their clubs.

The answer is, take them all on a good long England tour and play lots of friendlies with the kids.  Team England. It would help the kids develop and gain experience while forging a pressing team with great understanding of how each other play

I know its not the same as developing in competition, but that pressure can be introduced to a certain extent by the management

[gow2gooseya]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

We have the best youth sides in world football. Like Germany did and Spain did before them. So we should be winning or at least doing a lot better than group stages or quarters in years to come. Of course people say no chance just because we've been poor for so long. But give it a few years and the talent should be there as we produce much better youngsters than we used to.

Spain did nothing for as long as I can remember, then suddenly they are at the pinacle and there they have stayed.

The same could happen for England, but talk is cheap.  The kids need to make it happen

[DaveInSA]

One long line of disappointment after disappointment.

We're just not very good.

I've no idea who any of the players even are (apart from Ali and Kane). Overpaid, underperforming pre-madonna's. Without exception.

Until we uncover some talented players that actually want to play for England. We'll remain bad. And I'm pretty sure the Premier League has to foot a large portion of the blame. English players don't get game time in this league. How are they supposed to develop onto the world stage?

[EnderMB]

I think that, compared to the past, we're in a much better position to succeed as a country, and that's purely down to the recent transfer inflation.

In the past, it was near impossible to sign an English player because they cost too much. No one in their right mind would pay £20m for a solid but upcoming English player because that kind of money would get them the finished article. After the Neymar transfer the market has evened itself out, and suddenly English players are an attractive option for foreign clubs.

In my view, the FA need to take full advantage of this, and start telling its youngsters that the best way to improve is to be playing first-team football. If a Premier League team cannot promise that, their best choice is abroad, or in the lower leagues. The more English players we can have playing in leagues across Europe, the wider our talent pool becomes.

It won't mean immediate success, but it means the next generation of talent will have exposure to football outside of England, and ideally the tactical knowledge that comes with that.

[ooRya]

14 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

If 'technical' means an ability to pass the ball backwards and sideways 10 yards (ala Henderson) and 'power and pace' equates with being strong on the ball, plus fast, fluid and expansive football with the ability to fire a ball 30 yards forward with precision into space or to feet (ala Germany)  -  then I'll settle for the winning formula of 'power and pace'. 

The problem is we've been trying to play 'technical football' for decades, we're at least 10 years behind the rest who have ditched the technical formula...let's hope we can catch up fast at national level. 

With LJ - and I'm totally gobsmacked to be honest after last season's horror show  - we may just have a manager who understands the way to play the modern game. 

[TBW]

No and don't want them to.

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, EnderMB said:

I think that, compared to the past, we're in a much better position to succeed as a country, and that's purely down to the recent transfer inflation.

In the past, it was near impossible to sign an English player because they cost too much. No one in their right mind would pay £20m for a solid but upcoming English player because that kind of money would get them the finished article. After the Neymar transfer the market has evened itself out, and suddenly English players are an attractive option for foreign clubs.

In my view, the FA need to take full advantage of this, and start telling its youngsters that the best way to improve is to be playing first-team football. If a Premier League team cannot promise that, their best choice is abroad, or in the lower leagues. The more English players we can have playing in leagues across Europe, the wider our talent pool becomes.

It won't mean immediate success, but it means the next generation of talent will have exposure to football outside of England, and ideally the tactical knowledge that comes with that.

Exactly this. If the door closes on you in the Premier League as a youngster that should be it abroad you go, or maybe even looking abroad should be some of these lads firsts options.

Im not a fan of David Beckham in the slightest but he 100% improved as a player after his stints in Spain and Italy. The Seria A in particular would tactically do some of our youngsters wonders. Its honestly no wonder that the Italians are masters at grinding out results at International level.. yes the Seria A isnt as entertaining' as the Prem but our youngsters would learn a great deal from moving over to Italy and playing in particular IMO.

[Charlie BCFC]

Semis maybe a very slight chance 

 

Winners/finalists no chance 

 

 

[marmite]

2 minutes ago, bris red said:

Exactly this. If the door closes on you in the Premier League as a youngster that should be it abroad you go, or maybe even looking abroad should be some of these lads firsts options.

Im not a fan of David Beckham in the slightest but he 100% improved as a player after his stints in Spain and Italy. The Seria A in particular would tactically do some of our youngsters wonders. Its honestly no wonder that the Italians are masters at grinding out results at International level.. yes the Seria A isnt as entertaining' as the Prem but our youngsters would learn a great deal from moving over to Italy and playing in particular IMO.

This is so true IMO but what happens when they return for International duty and have to then play the "England way"? Maybe what we need is more foreign coaches in our lower leagues so we learn the basics early in their careers.

[marmite]

To answer the original question, not for the foreseeable future IMO.

[Cowshed]

19 minutes ago, bris red said:

Exactly this. If the door closes on you in the Premier League as a youngster that should be it abroad you go, or maybe even looking abroad should be some of these lads firsts options.

Im not a fan of David Beckham in the slightest but he 100% improved as a player after his stints in Spain and Italy. The Seria A in particular would tactically do some of our youngsters wonders. Its honestly no wonder that the Italians are masters at grinding out results at International level.. yes the Seria A isnt as entertaining' as the Prem but our youngsters would learn a great deal from moving over to Italy and playing in particular IMO.

I think that highlights what a great player David Beckham was. He could not play in various roles without technical proficiency. A proficiency not generally associated with English players.

Seria A isnt as entertaining' as the Prem ... Statto head on. Serie A has the highest goals scored average per game of any top league in Europe.

[Bris Red]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I think that highlights what a great player David Beckham was. He could not play in various roles without technical proficiency. A proficiency not generally associated with English players.

Seria A isnt as entertaining' as the Prem ... Statto head on. Serie A has the highest goals scored average per game of any top league in Europe.

I cant agree that David Beckham was 'great'. I liked the boldness of the guy to move abroad though.. something I genuinely feel would have improved the likes of Gerrard and Lampard to no end..

[One Team In Keynsham]

21 hours ago, South stander said:

I am feeling quite positive after all the success the young England teams have had recently.  I really think we are developing a good crop of decent players and given some luck, players in form and limited injuries we can give it a go.  There are still some concerns defensively, but going forward we can do some damage.  If the youngsters continue to get game time for their clubs and continue to develop and stay fit, we could put together a good team.  Seems like Southgate is looking to set a style of play and build it around young enthusiastic players who can play without fear. Our strength will be wing backs, with Walker, Rose, Bertrand and Trippier being a real threat going forward.  If Kane, Rashford, Vardy and Alli can maintain form and not get over tired, they can be a real handful.  In midfield, the options are looking better as the months go on, with Dier looking solid, Loftus-Cheek looking like a star in the making, Winks looking like a quality player and Llalana adding experience.  The goalkeeper and defenders look like a weak link. but Pickford and Butler could be ok as keepers and Stones, Jones and Maguire could do ok.

 

Still early days and plenty of time to go, but seems like the youngsters are coming good and the old guard of Rooney, Cahill and Hart, etc are on the way out.  Still going to be tough to beat Brazil and Germany, but who knows.

 

[Lack of Action Man]

There's more chance of Al Capone doing the Charleston on a flag pole!

[Robbored]

Absolutely not a snowballs chance in hell - especially under Mr Dull and ponderous, 

England will be lucky to get out of the group even tho we don't know yet who else wil be in it.

[winterbournered]

21 hours ago, South stander said:

I am feeling quite positive after all the success the young England teams have had recently.  I really think we are developing a good crop of decent players and given some luck, players in form and limited injuries we can give it a go.  There are still some concerns defensively, but going forward we can do some damage.  If the youngsters continue to get game time for their clubs and continue to develop and stay fit, we could put together a good team.  Seems like Southgate is looking to set a style of play and build it around young enthusiastic players who can play without fear. Our strength will be wing backs, with Walker, Rose, Bertrand and Trippier being a real threat going forward.  If Kane, Rashford, Vardy and Alli can maintain form and not get over tired, they can be a real handful.  In midfield, the options are looking better as the months go on, with Dier looking solid, Loftus-Cheek looking like a star in the making, Winks looking like a quality player and Llalana adding experience.  The goalkeeper and defenders look like a weak link. but Pickford and Butler could be ok as keepers and Stones, Jones and Maguire could do ok.

 

Still early days and plenty of time to go, but seems like the youngsters are coming good and the old guard of Rooney, Cahill and Hart, etc are on the way out.  Still going to be tough to beat Brazil and Germany, but who knows.

I do love a Sunday afternoon drinking session 

[Cowshed]

14 hours ago, bris red said:

I cant agree that David Beckham was 'great'. I liked the boldness of the guy to move abroad though.. something I genuinely feel would have improved the likes of Gerrard and Lampard to no end..

Its only opinion but I look at great as being exceptional. I have not seen a better crosser and free kick taker. And in Italy and Spain he also played as a deep lying playmaker.. Its no average or even good Premier league player.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Pace and power combined at international level... Dunno how well it works.

I would say English football offers up a unique challenge of the big nations. Physical play is a LOT more tolerated here for example. Again, good and bad aspects.

However setting aside the physicality which is diminishing quite clearly, the other interesting differential. Pace and power- doesn't work so well in tournaments as in regular season. 

Why? One key reason the heat. Something that's more common place at other stages of season in La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1 for example. That's why in part LA Liga and to an extent Serie A and Ligue 1 have traditionally had more emphasis on patience and possession. 

Cannot play a traditional English way in that heat and humidity.

That's why going abroad would IMO have suited some of our golden generation . Lampard in particular would have been very suited to it IMO.

Wilshere should have gone to Milan or in particular Roma last year instead of Bournemouth tbh.

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Pace and power combined at international level... Dunno how well it works.

I would say English football offers up a unique challenge of the big nations. Physical play is a LOT more tolerated here for example. Again, good and bad aspects.

However setting aside the physicality which is diminishing quite clearly, the other interesting differential. Pace and power- doesn't work so well in tournaments as in regular season. 

Why? One key reason the heat. Something that's more common place at other stages of season in La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1 for example. That's why in part LA Liga and to an extent Serie A and Ligue 1 have traditionally had more emphasis on patience and possession. 

Cannot play a traditional English way in that heat and humidity.

That's why going abroad would IMO have suited some of our golden generation . Lampard in particular would have been very suited to it IMO.

Wilshere should have gone to Milan or in particular Roma last year instead of Bournemouth tbh.

Athletico Madrid do play with pace and power. Away from Serie A which has become a attacking league not a defensive one German teams certainly do play with pace and pwer. I would not say Diego Simeone has a team that are technically brilliant but Germany is different.

Germany have a chameleon ability to change how they play and its through the technical ability of its players. Technical ability leads to greater flexible tactical ability and playing at higher tempo.

Germany did not reinvent the wheel - Sweeper Keepers, over lapping full backs , high pressing, speeding it up or stifling games through possession, passing footballers in every position  - Liverpool more or less did this thirty years ago. A English style bosses the World now.

[awbb]

There is no chance while the players continue to bottle it so badly when there is any sort of pressure, and I don't mean that which is applied by their opponents.

We can talk all about styles/patterns of play and how able, or otherwise, English players are to adapt to that, but when our nation's record goal scorer, with over 100 caps to his name, allows the ball to roll under his foot when attempting to control it with no opponent in sight or when a generally reliable goalkeeper lets a frankly soft free-kick go through his hands you have to ask yourself:

"Why are so many of these players incapable of operating at the level of a basic professional footballer for 90 minutes during a tournament?"

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, awbb said:

There is no chance while the players continue to bottle it so badly when there is any sort of pressure, and I don't mean that which is applied by their opponents.

We can talk all about styles/patterns of play and how able, or otherwise, English players are to adapt to that, but when our nation's record goal scorer, with over 100 caps to his name, allows the ball to roll under his foot when attempting to control it with no opponent in sight or when a generally reliable goalkeeper lets a frankly soft free-kick go through his hands you have to ask yourself:

"Why are so many of these players incapable of operating at the level of a basic professional footballer for 90 minutes during a tournament?"

"Why are so many of these players incapable of operating at the level of a basic professional footballer for 90 minutes during a tournament?"

Because it is not a basic level. Brazils players experienced something very similar to England v Iceland in their back yard.  

Your bottle could be something very different. I am not suggesting you are guilty but there is a very English attitude of thinking that a nation that was noted for its fighting spirit in football, now creates players who are bottlers who do not care. Running around lots, making mistakes can be a case of caring too much, trying too hard, adrenaline and cortisol freezing players with stress ... A better question may be is why are nations like Germany and Spain more equipped to deal with the same challenges?

[Gert Mare]

We can win the World Cup, but not if we continue with the current situation of players being dragged out of games by their clubs. We would be better off using the under 20's / 21's and bringing them on for years, regardless if they play much first team football for their clubs or not. 

[Portland Bill]

On 12/11/2017 at 21:57, Rob k said:

We won’t win shit with the likes of Chelsea allowed to do whatever the hell they like with their youngsters or whilst there is so much pressure on PL managers to succeed 

Exactly, Tammy Abraham’s has played more games for England than he has for his club Chelsea, one!

[awbb]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

"Why are so many of these players incapable of operating at the level of a basic professional footballer for 90 minutes during a tournament?"

Because it is not a basic level. Brazils players experienced something very similar to England v Iceland in their back yard.  

Your bottle could be something very different. I am not suggesting you are guilty but there is a very English attitude of thinking that a nation that was noted for its fighting spirit in football, now creates players who are bottlers who do not care. Running around lots, making mistakes can be a case of caring too much, trying too hard, adrenaline and cortisol freezing players with stress ... A better question may be is why are nations like Germany and Spain more equipped to deal with the same challenges?

In my opinion, being able to control a pass, that is reasonably accurate and not over hit should not be beyond any professional footballer and was the sort of mistake that England players were making regularly in the last tournament. I don't think it's a technical thing as they can clearly do it on a training ground or for their club. I agree with you that it starts as a mental thing (be it caring too much & trying too hard) that, as you have suggested, could lead to physical effects. The "bottle" is not letting this effect your performance. However, that doesn't mean that my question is invalid. Finding comparisons with other nations, with comparatively more success than us may be a way to achieve an answer.

 

Though I would probably prefer us back-to-front, knocking-it-long 4-4-2, backs-to-the-wall, in-the-trenches. Nippy wingers and a big man up top.

 

Possibly.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Athletico Madrid do play with pace and power. Away from Serie A which has become a attacking league not a defensive one German teams certainly do play with pace and pwer. I would not say Diego Simeone has a team that are technically brilliant but Germany is different.

Germany have a chameleon ability to change how they play and its through the technical ability of its players. Technical ability leads to greater flexible tactical ability and playing at higher tempo.

Germany did not reinvent the wheel - Sweeper Keepers, over lapping full backs , high pressing, speeding it up or stifling games through possession, passing footballers in every position  - Liverpool more or less did this thirty years ago. A English style bosses the World now.

Atletico are an outlier IMO. In La Liga I mean, well pointed out of course, slipped my mind slightly but of course yeah of course.

Serie A as defensive? It had low goals but the technical quality in its pomp was brilliant- defensive per'se or defensively brilliantly organised? Fine line IMO.

Germany are very technical yes. Agreed on the benefits of technical ability in players.

I very much doubt the game was as advanced 30 years ago.  Plenty of high ranked teams played two up top 30 years ago, lots of teams. There was far more space in general, teams were a lot less well drilled- football and it's different phases of development are fascinating. I think Liverpool of 30 years back vs Germany of now- similarities but plenty of differences too. Football was a lot more physical 30 years back, and pitches were surely worse which gives Liverpool more credit. Definitely big differences between the 2 though IMO.

Players can learn more from going abroard, develop as players. The insular might disagree but exposure to a new style of play, will only benefit those willing IMO. Out of interest, do you think a loan to Roma or Bournemouth would have been of more use to Wilshere?

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, awbb said:

In my opinion, being able to control a pass, that is reasonably accurate and not over hit should not be beyond any professional footballer and was the sort of mistake that England players were making regularly in the last tournament. I don't think it's a technical thing as they can clearly do it on a training ground or for their club. I agree with you that it starts as a mental thing (be it caring too much & trying too hard) that, as you have suggested, could lead to physical effects. The "bottle" is not letting this effect your performance. However, that doesn't mean that my question is invalid. Finding comparisons with other nations, with comparatively more success than us may be a way to achieve an answer.

 

Within threads like these you will see each head England coach denigrated as clueless etc, as to imply somehow England should be far better than they are. Cappello, Hodgson, now Southgate. All coated off as if somebody on a forum knows better. The expectation really is a nonsense. Nothing for fifteen years says England are better than we get.

Multiply the above again and again and somewhat unscientifically that's the expectation England players have to deal with, be confronted by, read in the media ... My comparison is this England players are not technically of the standard required to go further than they do.

Should they have beaten Iceland? Yes but how England's players reacted as a team is very similar to Brazil v Germany. Brazil could not deal with the expectation and pressure leading to being unable to perform to a standard that was normal. That Brazil team was not a team of greats minus the obvious and so mentally imploded when put under massive expectation, and the pressure of Germany.

Iceland did not endure the same pressures of England and performed all the better for it.

The roundabout point is that Spain and Germany and other nations intent from early ages is to work nationally on producing technically brilliant players for their leagues AND national teams. Technically brilliant players are better equipped to deal with the challenges they face. That lifetime of preparation working on technique equips players psychologically.

England? It is a case of lower the expectations, or improve technically using the methodology of those who have left this Country behind at full International level.

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Atletico are an outlier IMO. In La Liga I mean, well pointed out of course, slipped my mind slightly but of course yeah of course.

Serie A as defensive? It had low goals but the technical quality in its pomp was brilliant- defensive per'se or defensively brilliantly organised? Fine line IMO.

Germany are very technical yes. Agreed on the benefits of technical ability in players.

I very much doubt the game was as advanced 30 years ago.  Plenty of high ranked teams played two up top 30 years ago, lots of teams. There was far more space in general, teams were a lot less well drilled- football and it's different phases of development are fascinating. I think Liverpool of 30 years back vs Germany of now- similarities but plenty of differences too. Football was a lot more physical 30 years back, and pitches were surely worse which gives Liverpool more credit. Definitely big differences between the 2 though IMO.

Players can learn more from going abroard, develop as players. The insular might disagree but exposure to a new style of play, will only benefit those willing IMO. Out of interest, do you think a loan to Roma or Bournemouth would have been of more use to Wilshere?

Atletico are an outlier IMO but an example of how pace and power, almost relentless tempo can succeed, but I think Germany is a far better example of where pace allied to technique is at its zenith.

Serie A has ceased for some time to be defensive. The football is less possession based than of old. It is now more goals than all.

I very much doubt the game was as advanced 30 years ago ... That was not my intent. What I was attempting to highlight is where Germany are should have been England's future. The Germans have taken on very English (and Scottish) traits in Liverpool and advanced them. Forest and Liverpool should have been the future of English football thirty years ago instead the FA and clubs went route one and long ball in its blue print for football.

Out of interest, do you think a loan to Roma or Bournemouth would have been of more use to Wilshere? Rubbish answer this. No intentionally copping out. Wherever he can play and be challenged ... And if Roma had wanted him yes.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Vardy continuing where he left off from Germany game

His touch and technical game has come on so much

Looks the part