Dementia & Football.

[Tipps69]

Did anyone watch this program fronted by Alan Shearer on Sunday night?

The basic gist of it is that heading the ball is causing dementia etc but they have no solid proof as they don’t actually know numbers, they are claiming there are 850,000 people suffering with dementia or similar but they don’t know how many ex-players are suffering.

Now while I never played professional, I played for teams from about the age of 7 until I was about 41, this included playing at every break & lunch time at school, playing more or less every afternoon after school for what could be an extra 4 or 5 hours a day & would also entail playing for numerous hours on weekends throughout the whole year, come sun, rain or snow, no weather would stop us from playing & that would of probably been the case until I was at least 16!!

After leaving school it would of involved playing 11 a-side matches on Saturdays & Sunday’s, training a couple of times a week & 5 a-side / 6 a-side a couple of times a week.

I used to consider myself as someone who would head the ball more often than most as I was always taller than most kids my age so I would put myself into positions to head the ball as I had a distinct height advantage but I’ve never worried about any form of head injuries, especially from heading a football! I’ve been kicked in the head a few times & broke my nose a few times but none of it has seemingly caused any long term issues (I’m now 45 years old).

My argument is that there doesn’t appear to be a large amount of people that played football who are suffering, so if it’s a football issue then why have so many women suffered from dementia or people who have never played football?

It’s like saying that the only people who should contract cancer are people who smoke(d) for years or spent too much time in the sun etc but that isn’t the case, non smokers who don’t sun worship etc suffer from cancer, so who’s to blame for that?

People suffer illnesses for any number of reasons, how many ‘young’ people suffer heart conditions while doing a sporting activity? Does that mean people should stop doing a sporting activity through fear of having a heart issue? People are payed to do research into all sorts of activities & illnesses & if you look hard enough you will find that everything is bad for you but would you stop doing it? I wouldn’t of!!

Alan Shearer had numerous tests performed on him culminating in a MRI scan of his brain & his brain was considered to be ‘normal’, I think it’s sadly just a case of the ‘luck of the draw’, some people get ill through no fault of their own while others go on to live a lot longer without any form of problems. And Shearer summed things up that he doesn’t believe ‘heading’ should be banned from the game & I’m in total agreement with him.

Does anyone else have any views on the situation?

[MarcusX]

2 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Did anyone watch this program fronted by Alan Shearer on Sunday night?

The basic gist of it is that heading the ball is causing dementia etc but they have no solid proof as they don’t actually know numbers, they are claiming there are 850,000 people suffering with dementia or similar but they don’t know how many ex-players are suffering.

Now while I never played professional, I played for teams from about the age of 7 until I was about 41, this included playing at every break & lunch time at school, playing more or less every afternoon after school for what could be an extra 4 or 5 hours a day & would also entail playing for numerous hours on weekends throughout the whole year, come sun, rain or snow, no weather would stop us from playing & that would of probably been the case until I was at least 16!!

After leaving school it would of involved playing 11 a-side matches on Saturdays & Sunday’s, training a couple of times a week & 5 a-side / 6 a-side a couple of times a week.

I used to consider myself as someone who would head the ball more often than most as I was always taller than most kids my age so I would put myself into positions to head the ball as I had a distinct height advantage but I’ve never worried about any form of head injuries, especially from heading a football! I’ve been kicked in the head a few times & broke my nose a few times but none of it has seemingly caused any long term issues (I’m now 45 years old).

My argument is that there doesn’t appear to be a large amount of people that played football who are suffering, so if it’s a football issue then why have so many women suffered from dementia or people who have never played football?

It’s like saying that the only people who should contract cancer are people who smoke(d) for years or spent too much time in the sun etc but that isn’t the case, non smokers who don’t sun worship etc suffer from cancer, so who’s to blame for that?

People suffer illnesses for any number of reasons, how many ‘young’ people suffer heart conditions while doing a sporting activity? Does that mean people should stop doing a sporting activity through fear of having a heart issue? People are payed to do research into all sorts of activities & illnesses & if you look hard enough you will find that everything is bad for you but would you stop doing it? I wouldn’t of!!

Alan Shearer had numerous tests performed on him culminating in a MRI scan of his brain & his brain was considered to be ‘normal’, I think it’s sadly just a case of the ‘luck of the draw’, some people get ill through no fault of their own while others go on to live a lot longer without any form of problems. And Shearer summed things up that he doesn’t believe ‘heading’ should be banned from the game & I’m in total agreement with him.

Does anyone else have any views on the situation?

It's not though, they aren't saying that ONLY people who have headed a ball are at risk they just think it could be a potential risk - which especially with the older, heavier balls is a possibility.

 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

Only watched part of it so cannot comment fully just yet. I'm a player, like our Aden, who is more comfortable using my head than my feet. Taken a few kicks to the face stooping into positions most players would use their feet. 

My only contribution is that I've concussed myself a few times heading a goalkeepers kick out the hands and taken it right to the top of my head. I'm not that tall (5'10), although I'm one of the tallest in our team, so when jumping with taller players I often stretch the top of my head up to win the ball, rather than using the forehead. Every time I have played on, despite on occasion, actually struggling to walk for a few minutes. Coaches and refs should see some training on getting concussed players off the pitch at grassroots because if you're concussed, you're not making the best decisions for yourself.

[Tipps69]

13 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It's not though, they aren't saying that ONLY people who have headed a ball are at risk they just think it could be a potential risk - which especially with the older, heavier balls is a possibility.

 

But the number of people who must of played football over the years compared to the percentage of people who have suffered from dementia (or similar), I would suggest is minimal, how about boxers (hit a lot harder to the head) or rugby players (just general head contact while in rucks, mauls, tackles & general contact).

It seems to me very much like scare mongering, I was coaching in the States just before the millennium & they were in the process of banning kids from heading a ball in training & matches & were even trying to implement the use of skullcaps (similar to what Cech wears), it personally seems all a little OTT, there are so many things in everyday life that can cause people harm & I wouldn’t consider heading a football to be one of those things, especially with the manufacture of modern day footballs.

If there are any prospects of changing the way football is played, I’d suggest that proper research needs to go into the pros & cons of the activity before things are changed for the worse.

[Shtanley]

I think the change of the material footballs are made from will have definitely lead to a decline in cases.

Would have liked to have heard Shearer's ideas or opinions on how we can help the situation. The NFL give out huge research grants to people who come up with inventions which can lower the chance of head injuries.

The best point in all of it was only about 10 seconds long but it was basically Shearer saying with all the money in the game right now surely some should be going towards research on all manner of things.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

It's not though, they aren't saying that ONLY people who have headed a ball are at risk they just think it could be a potential risk - which especially with the older, heavier balls is a possibility.

 

I think that's absolutely bang on. I can quite see why the old style heavier balls (especially if it had been raining) would be an issue. The new ones wouldn't have the same issues attached. The whole way the health and safety bods look at life though, I can well see heading being banned, permanent uncontested scrums and a softer ball being used in cricker

[Tipps69]

29 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I think the change of the material footballs are made from will have definitely lead to a decline in cases.

Would have liked to have heard Shearer's ideas or opinions on how we can help the situation. The NFL give out huge research grants to people who come up with inventions which can lower the chance of head injuries.

The best point in all of it was only about 10 seconds long but it was basically Shearer saying with all the money in the game right now surely some should be going towards research on all manner of things.

 

15 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

I think that's absolutely bang on. I can quite see why the old style heavier balls (especially if it had been raining) would be an issue. The new ones wouldn't have the same issues attached. The whole way the health and safety bods look at life though, I can well see heading being banned, permanent uncontested scrums and a softer ball being used in cricker

But Shearer did a ‘trial’ header with the old fashioned ball & said it felt lighter than today’s balls & the researchers confirmed that the old balls were in fact lighter but it was If the ball had taken on water it was heavier, so it wasn’t a constant issue of the old balls being heavier!

[Bristol Rob]

I was going to watch it, but forgot it was on.

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

But the number of people who must of played football over the years compared to the percentage of people who have suffered from dementia (or similar), I would suggest is minimal, how about boxers (hit a lot harder to the head) or rugby players (just general head contact while in rucks, mauls, tackles & general contact).

It seems to me very much like scare mongering, I was coaching in the States just before the millennium & they were in the process of banning kids from heading a ball in training & matches & were even trying to implement the use of skullcaps (similar to what Cech wears), it personally seems all a little OTT, there are so many things in everyday life that can cause people harm & I wouldn’t consider heading a football to be one of those things, especially with the manufacture of modern day footballs.

If there are any prospects of changing the way football is played, I’d suggest that proper research needs to go into the pros & cons of the activity before things are changed for the worse.

Yes I agree, it’s OTT and as you say you’d think rugby/boxing for example would be far worse.

im also one of those more accustomed to heading than kicking, my heads been in places many people wouldn’t put their foot!

[Tipps69]

13 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I was going to watch it, but forgot it was on.

Sure it’ll be on catch up.....

[pride of the west]

The question they are looking to answer is are footballers more likely to suffer from dementia. 

It's too early to know as the data simply isn't there. 

I don't even think they know yet if the percentage of former footballers who suffer from it is greater than than the national percentage as a whole. 

If for instance 1 in 10 suffer from it nationally but 1 in 3 ex footballers suffer from it then there would be an argument but we don't know that yet. 

I hope there isn't a correlation as the game will have to change. 

[Bristol Rob]

29 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Sure it’ll be on catch up.....

Yeah, they were talking about it on the radio earlier. I'll try and watch it later.

[Erithacus]

The obvious fact here is that there is nowhere near enough understanding of the problem. Once we have a better grasp of dementia in general we will be able to make changes where necessary.

What I will say is there are many aspects worth investigating. Taking football as a 'dangerous' activity when heading a ball might show different effects due to the different ways of doing so: the impact of a little glancing header will not have the same effect as getting your head under a keeper's steepling clearance. Will centre-halves suffer more than, say, centre-forwards? Also, the number of occasions and the bunching of headers could have consequences too. But this takes typical use in play as one possible 'source'. We ought to account for the other head impacts that can occur - chiefly contact with opponents' arms/elbows/heads, goalposts or simply hitting the ground after falling. These may matter.

Looking further afield at other sports, research would seem more important to them. Take rugby as an example: the head often takes a bash as an unavoidable part of the game, but can be very severe (witness the Welsh player George North). Heads can be dealt a nasty blow in things like equestrian events, winter sports (take F1 champion Michael Schumacher!) or even more sedate activities.

Then we need to look at the more extreme sports where head injuries have a great potential to bring irredeemable damage or death. Fight sports like boxing and MMA specifically target the head (and must be concerned about any legal ramifications). The worst head impacts occur when the human body is propelled at superhuman speeds - with the aid of an engine. Motorsport has a long list of fatalities and the head is a vulnerable part. Was it not a head injury that claimed Ayrton Senna?

 

Speaking as someone whose mother now has Alzheimer's (and who never headed a ball in her life!) I suspect there will be a difficult analysis in the end. It could be that the reasons for dementia are many and interconnected, and will be complicated to deal with. Will it be a situation like the link between smoking and cancer? Clearly, all smokers do not die of cancer and non-smokers survive; but the relative frequencies indicate that smoking will greatly increase your chances of contracting it. Dementia could be this awkward.

[Tipps69]

9 minutes ago, Erithacus said:

The obvious fact here is that there is nowhere near enough understanding of the problem. Once we have a better grasp of dementia in general we will be able to make changes where necessary.

What I will say is there are many aspects worth investigating. Taking football as a 'dangerous' activity when heading a ball might show different effects due to the different ways of doing so: the impact of a little glancing header will not have the same effect as getting your head under a keeper's steepling clearance. Will centre-halves suffer more than, say, centre-forwards? Also, the number of occasions and the bunching of headers could have consequences too. But this takes typical use in play as one possible 'source'. We ought to account for the other head impacts that can occur - chiefly contact with opponents' arms/elbows/heads, goalposts or simply hitting the ground after falling. These may matter.

Looking further afield at other sports, research would seem more important to them. Take rugby as an example: the head often takes a bash as an unavoidable part of the game, but can be very severe (witness the Welsh player George North). Heads can be dealt a nasty blow in things like equestrian events, winter sports (take F1 champion Michael Schumacher!) or even more sedate activities.

Then we need to look at the more extreme sports where head injuries have a great potential to bring irredeemable damage or death. Fight sports like boxing and MMA specifically target the head (and must be concerned about any legal ramifications). The worst head impacts occur when the human body is propelled at superhuman speeds - with the aid of an engine. Motorsport has a long list of fatalities and the head is a vulnerable part. Was it not a head injury that claimed Ayrton Senna?

 

Speaking as someone whose mother now has Alzheimer's (and who never headed a ball in her life!) I suspect there will be a difficult analysis in the end. It could be that the reasons for dementia are many and interconnected, and will be complicated to deal with. Will it be a situation like the link between smoking and cancer? Clearly, all smokers do not die of cancer and non-smokers survive; but the relative frequencies indicate that smoking will greatly increase your chances of contracting it. Dementia could be this awkward.

I guess my issue with this instance where they seem to be trying to find a reason to link it to football is that they are trying to link it to an activity that has probably been played by millions of people over the years, the law of averages say’s that more people involved in playing football are going to suffer by this horrid illness because there are more people who took part in the activity in the first place!

Why not link it to people who watch TV or who read books? And then blame it on a lack of exercise? As I expect a lot of people who have watched TV have suffered, so should that mean TV’s should be restricted? Of course not.

I just find it all very annoying that it must be someone’s fault not just purely bad luck.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I watched it and found it quite sad, but I agreed with Alan shearer's verdict more investigation is needed before a knee jerk decision is made.

I personally thought that the PFA with the bumbling Gordon Taylor did not come out of this very well at all, with all of the disgusting amount of money being paid in wages, ex players like Nobby Stiles are getting no assistance whatsoever and his family are having to sell off his stuff to pay for his care, his son was rightly angry.

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

ex players like Nobby Stiles are getting no assistance whatsoever and his family are having to sell off his stuff to pay for his care, his son was rightly angry.

But technically there is no proof that Mr Stiles illness is anything to do with football, so who’s duty is it to support him financially? While it would be great if The PFA did stand by him & help, is it their duty? (I honestly don’t know how long they are supposed to support ex-players for).

Is it any other businesses duty to carry on supporting a retired employee who is suffering from ill health or is it the duty of family members? I wouldn’t expect my mother’s ex-employer to have to support her beyond what they are legally entitled to do, so why should anyone else?

Unfortunately times have moved on for ex-players & there is a huge difference in the sums available nowadays but they didn’t have a bad life back then compared to your average Joe.

It’s an unfortunate way of the world.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

30 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

But technically there is no proof that Mr Stiles illness is anything to do with football, so who’s duty is it to support him financially? While it would be great if The PFA did stand by him & help, is it their duty? (I honestly don’t know how long they are supposed to support ex-players for).

Is it any other businesses duty to carry on supporting a retired employee who is suffering from ill health or is it the duty of family members? I wouldn’t expect my mother’s ex-employer to have to support her beyond what they are legally entitled to do, so why should anyone else?

Unfortunately times have moved on for ex-players & there is a huge difference in the sums available nowadays but they didn’t have a bad life back then compared to your average Joe.

It’s an unfortunate way of the world.

Not the point that I was making, the PFA has loads of money these days and could help out for a former union member fallen on hard times that may or may not be because of his football career, it would be a drop in the ocean for them.

 

[Tipps69]

12 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Not the point that I was making, the PFA has loads of money these days and could help out for a former union member fallen on hard times that may or may not be because of his football career, it would be a drop in the ocean for them.

 

You’re right, it is a drop in the ocean for them but you only have to look at how they have helped other members past & present to realise that they aren’t actually set-up to help anyone but themselves (or Gordon Taylor in particular)!!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

You’re right, it is a drop in the ocean for them but you only have to look at how they have helped other members past & present to realise that they aren’t actually set-up to help anyone but themselves (or Gordon Taylor in particular)!!

Spot on and reading between the lines Alan Shearer thought exactly the same, the difference is Nobby Stiles is a world cup winner and deserves better IMHO.

[Tipps69]

2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Spot on and reading between the lines Alan Shearer thought exactly the same, the difference is Nobby Stiles is a world cup winner and deserves better IMHO.

In the grand scheme of things you’re right, sadly Gordon Taylor & his cronies are only interested in looking after themselves, you only have to look at what mess Kenny Sansom got himself into not so long ago to realise that! 

For someone to of been part of what he was (Stiles) & to not be able to get a little bit of help when it’s needed most is a bad show but as long as Taylor & his mates get their bonuses, who cares right!?!  

[redfieldred]

8 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Did anyone watch this program fronted by Alan Shearer on Sunday night?

The basic gist of it is that heading the ball is causing dementia etc but they have no solid proof as they don’t actually know numbers, they are claiming there are 850,000 people suffering with dementia or similar but they don’t know how many ex-players are suffering.

Now while I never played professional, I played for teams from about the age of 7 until I was about 41, this included playing at every break & lunch time at school, playing more or less every afternoon after school for what could be an extra 4 or 5 hours a day & would also entail playing for numerous hours on weekends throughout the whole year, come sun, rain or snow, no weather would stop us from playing & that would of probably been the case until I was at least 16!!

After leaving school it would of involved playing 11 a-side matches on Saturdays & Sunday’s, training a couple of times a week & 5 a-side / 6 a-side a couple of times a week.

I used to consider myself as someone who would head the ball more often than most as I was always taller than most kids my age so I would put myself into positions to head the ball as I had a distinct height advantage but I’ve never worried about any form of head injuries, especially from heading a football! I’ve been kicked in the head a few times & broke my nose a few times but none of it has seemingly caused any long term issues (I’m now 45 years old).

My argument is that there doesn’t appear to be a large amount of people that played football who are suffering, so if it’s a football issue then why have so many women suffered from dementia or people who have never played football?

It’s like saying that the only people who should contract cancer are people who smoke(d) for years or spent too much time in the sun etc but that isn’t the case, non smokers who don’t sun worship etc suffer from cancer, so who’s to blame for that?

People suffer illnesses for any number of reasons, how many ‘young’ people suffer heart conditions while doing a sporting activity? Does that mean people should stop doing a sporting activity through fear of having a heart issue? People are payed to do research into all sorts of activities & illnesses & if you look hard enough you will find that everything is bad for you but would you stop doing it? I wouldn’t of!!

Alan Shearer had numerous tests performed on him culminating in a MRI scan of his brain & his brain was considered to be ‘normal’, I think it’s sadly just a case of the ‘luck of the draw’, some people get ill through no fault of their own while others go on to live a lot longer without any form of problems. And Shearer summed things up that he doesn’t believe ‘heading’ should be banned from the game & I’m in total agreement with him.

Does anyone else have any views on the situation?

It's a non story story. There's always a link If you want to find one. But for proof you need a control group. Someone who has never headed a ball in their life might have sustained a serious head injury, so control groups have to be vetted. This takes time and money.  The research scientists at universities doing an MA want their research to be meaningful. Also their study won't be published if no link is found, as in effect their research has been a waste of time, it is therefore in their interest to come up with a link, that is why there are so many food scare stories. Ignore them all I say! 

 

[Erithacus]

I'm wondering if this particular football essential may also have an impact...

 

 

But seriously, I am concerned about the fact that there are few if any symptoms until many years after retiring from playing. It takes time for the problem to arise to the point when it becomes noticeable by the sufferer or their nearest. The programme showed Geoff Astle's brain slices after staining and the presence of the proteins around the damage. Are these detectable in earlier age? Can they be kept at bay? The science is way behind the curve , I know, but needs plenty of work. Could the vast sums of cash swilling around the game be put to good (and independent) use?

 

[Tipps69]

10 minutes ago, Erithacus said:

I'm wondering if this particular football essential may also have an impact...

 

 

But seriously, I am concerned about the fact that there are few if any symptoms until many years after retiring from playing. It takes time for the problem to arise to the point when it becomes noticeable by the sufferer or their nearest. The programme showed Geoff Astle's brain slices after staining and the presence of the proteins around the damage. Are these detectable in earlier age? Can they be kept at bay? The science is way behind the curve , I know, but needs plenty of work. Could the vast sums of cash swilling around the game be put to good (and independent) use?

 

But there is also no proof as to how Geoff Astles life would of been if he hadn’t of played football, there are many people who have dementia & similar illnesses who have never played professional football. I just can’t see how anyone will ever get any proof as to the reasoning behind these illnesses.

[Erithacus]

That will mean we would need to look at two groups: players and non-players, and try to determine the proportions relative to them. Once we have that in hand it should be clear as to which direction the research needs to go. My worry is that there are more factors that are important (like those who hit the bottle against those who refrained, or such like). Simple it ain't.

[wendyredredrobin]

Have recorded the program but not yet watched it.  I have been following this story for a while though and think once we have compared the % of footballers getting dementia with the % of the rest of the population, we will conclude that footballers have a similar risk to everyone else.  We only know of a small number of footballers with it, but there are thousands of non footballers in nursing homes all around the country suffering.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 13/11/2017 at 14:31, Tipps69 said:

Did anyone watch this program fronted by Alan Shearer on Sunday night?

The basic gist of it is that heading the ball is causing dementia etc but they have no solid proof as they don’t actually know numbers, they are claiming there are 850,000 people suffering with dementia or similar but they don’t know how many ex-players are suffering.

Now while I never played professional, I played for teams from about the age of 7 until I was about 41, this included playing at every break & lunch time at school, playing more or less every afternoon after school for what could be an extra 4 or 5 hours a day & would also entail playing for numerous hours on weekends throughout the whole year, come sun, rain or snow, no weather would stop us from playing & that would of probably been the case until I was at least 16!!

After leaving school it would of involved playing 11 a-side matches on Saturdays & Sunday’s, training a couple of times a week & 5 a-side / 6 a-side a couple of times a week.

I used to consider myself as someone who would head the ball more often than most as I was always taller than most kids my age so I would put myself into positions to head the ball as I had a distinct height advantage but I’ve never worried about any form of head injuries, especially from heading a football! I’ve been kicked in the head a few times & broke my nose a few times but none of it has seemingly caused any long term issues (I’m now 45 years old).

My argument is that there doesn’t appear to be a large amount of people that played football who are suffering, so if it’s a football issue then why have so many women suffered from dementia or people who have never played football?

It’s like saying that the only people who should contract cancer are people who smoke(d) for years or spent too much time in the sun etc but that isn’t the case, non smokers who don’t sun worship etc suffer from cancer, so who’s to blame for that?

People suffer illnesses for any number of reasons, how many ‘young’ people suffer heart conditions while doing a sporting activity? Does that mean people should stop doing a sporting activity through fear of having a heart issue? People are payed to do research into all sorts of activities & illnesses & if you look hard enough you will find that everything is bad for you but would you stop doing it? I wouldn’t of!!

Alan Shearer had numerous tests performed on him culminating in a MRI scan of his brain & his brain was considered to be ‘normal’, I think it’s sadly just a case of the ‘luck of the draw’, some people get ill through no fault of their own while others go on to live a lot longer without any form of problems. And Shearer summed things up that he doesn’t believe ‘heading’ should be banned from the game & I’m in total agreement with him.

Does anyone else have any views on the situation?

I would say the old football when wet with the lace was like heading a medicine ball 60s to 70s