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The Official Barnsley V Bristol City Match Day Thread.


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Or alternatively we can get our defending back the way it was before. You really are mister half empty aren't you, just seem to be waiting for it all to go wrong.

This is the problem with these forums, realism and negativity are far too often mixed up! I've been taking a bit of flack here and there when I "complain" and by "complain" I actually mean have my own opinion that isn't all happy clapping.

 

As it stands we're now able to drop to second should Preston win both games in hand which is pretty shocking when you consider we're unbeaten this season but it does prove my point when I say that the draws are going to cost us.

I said in another thread how the last 3 seasons the automatic promotion teams did not draw more than 11 games (Wolves 10, Brentford 10, Doncaster Rovers 9, Bournemouth 11, Charlton 11, Sheffield Wednesday 9) whilst we're already at 6. Now I know people will say "yes but we haven't lost!" but the truth is we could have lost 2 games and won 2 more instead of drawing 4 and been 4 points better off. 

The fact is winning games is what gets you promoted and whilst we've won the most in the league Preston, Peterborough and Sheffield United are all on 8 and Sheffield United have a game in hand with Preston having 2.

So when I say our defence is not good enough I don't feel I am not justified, we've conceded 12 goals in our last 7 games, that cannot continue if we wish to get promotion because there will come a point where the goals dry up for a period and if we're still conceding at that rate we'll not be worrying about draws but instead about losses!

 

 

The most successful managers in modern football all have one thing in common, they always have a solid defence and whilst ours is not bad it is nowhere near good enough. Our attack is fantastic, even when we look like we can't get goals we seem to but unless the defence is sorted out there will come a point where our attack cannot bail us out. As the season goes on teams will find us out, we'll get more injuries and teams will get more confident playing against us so we need to be able to stand up to teams in a collected manner without panicking.

 

Now I know at this point this you may say "this is complaining" but it's not, it's worry. It is like the deer in the headlights moment, you see it coming but you worry you won't be able to stop it, the difference is it's glaringly obvious we need to improve in our defending and we do have time to do something about it. If we don't strengthen in the January window I can see us dropping out of automatic promotion, going into the play off and getting beat because we can't soak up the pressure when it's really on us.

I'd love to be proven wrong and I know I'm going to get some stick for "being negative" but personally I think there is a difference between being negative and not wanting to see your team throw away something great!

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Well we've not drawn 3 in a row so will either be a loss or win going on that hopefully the later seeing as we're at home.

 

Would need to check, but pretty sure we have not drawn two in a row before today...

 

As happens, think its a very decent point today, more disappointed with Tuesday in truth.

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This is the problem with these forums, realism and negativity are far too often mixed up! I've been taking a bit of flack here and there when I "complain" and by "complain" I actually mean have my own opinion that isn't all happy clapping.

 

As it stands we're now able to drop to second should Preston win both games in hand which is pretty shocking when you consider we're unbeaten this season but it does prove my point when I say that the draws are going to cost us.

I said in another thread how the last 3 seasons the automatic promotion teams did not draw more than 11 games (Wolves 10, Brentford 10, Doncaster Rovers 9, Bournemouth 11, Charlton 11, Sheffield Wednesday 9) whilst we're already at 6. Now I know people will say "yes but we haven't lost!" but the truth is we could have lost 2 games and won 2 more instead of drawing 4 and been 4 points better off. 

The fact is winning games is what gets you promoted and whilst we've won the most in the league Preston, Peterborough and Sheffield United are all on 8 and Sheffield United have a game in hand with Preston having 2.

So when I say our defence is not good enough I don't feel I am not justified, we've conceded 12 goals in our last 7 games, that cannot continue if we wish to get promotion because there will come a point where the goals dry up for a period and if we're still conceding at that rate we'll not be worrying about draws but instead about losses!

 

 

The most successful managers in modern football all have one thing in common, they always have a solid defence and whilst ours is not bad it is nowhere near good enough. Our attack is fantastic, even when we look like we can't get goals we seem to but unless the defence is sorted out there will come a point where our attack cannot bail us out. As the season goes on teams will find us out, we'll get more injuries and teams will get more confident playing against us so we need to be able to stand up to teams in a collected manner without panicking.

 

Now I know at this point this you may say "this is complaining" but it's not, it's worry. It is like the deer in the headlights moment, you see it coming but you worry you won't be able to stop it, the difference is it's glaringly obvious we need to improve in our defending and we do have time to do something about it. If we don't strengthen in the January window I can see us dropping out of automatic promotion, going into the play off and getting beat because we can't soak up the pressure when it's really on us.

I'd love to be proven wrong and I know I'm going to get some stick for "being negative" but personally I think there is a difference between being negative and not wanting to see your team throw away something great!

Oh my god, we might drop to second?  What on earth will we do? 

 

The start of this season this forum was full of people who said they would be pretty happy if we were top ten after the way things have gone in recent years. Now we have to win every week to keep everyone happy. I think there has been a need to use our substitutions better but that has improved in recent games. As I said in another thread, there are two teams in every game and to expect us to walk over every team in this league is not realistic, despite your claims.

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City..............Preston

 

Oldham  (H)....Rochdale (A)

Swindon (A)....Swindon   (A)

Preston  (H)....Bradford   (H)

P'boro    (A)....City          (A)

.....................Yeovil  (A)

 

Not sure what I'd want from next month , 6pts would be OK I think. For Preston , who are on a roll (7 wins on the spin ?)  9 maybe.

An interesting month on the cards.

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Why do some people feel the need to voice their opinions on radio... some are good at expressing themselves well, some aren't, maybe some (myself included- that's why stay well clear) are better at listening than going on air.

Leave it to those that can.

Almost as embarrassing as some of the early Britain's Got Talent auditions at times, people who think they can but clearly the talent is all inside their own heads.

Good amateur radio summerisers are few and far between.

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City..............Preston

 

Oldham  (H)....Rochdale (A)

Swindon (A)....Swindon   (A)

Preston  (H)....Bradford   (H)

P'boro    (A)....City          (A)

.....................Yeovil  (A)

 

Not sure what I'd want from next month , 6pts would be OK I think. For Preston , who are on a roll (7 wins on the spin ?)  9 maybe.

An interesting month on the cards.

 

Clearly a tough month.

 

Oddly, however looking less scary than a few week ago. Oldham looking harder, Swindon, Peterboro maybe a little easier? Preston on a great run to. 

 

Think I would take seven points.

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Oh my god, we might drop to second?  What on earth will we do? 

 

The start of this season this forum was full of people who said they would be pretty happy if we were top ten after the way things have gone in recent years. Now we have to win every week to keep everyone happy. I think there has been a need to use our substitutions better but that has improved in recent games. As I said in another thread, there are two teams in every game and to expect us to walk over every team in this league is not realistic, despite your claims.

I've never once made any claims that we should walk every team in this league, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. What I said was our defence needs to improve, we're conceeding a lot of goals and it's resulting in us getting draws when a win was on the cards.

 

Would you be happy to throw away a historic start to a season because we started off with low expectations?! The most successful managers never do great and say "good enough", they strive to improve. I'm not complaining about our record, it's a great record but I am worried that this whole unbeaten streak is being used as a comfort blanket for some of our fans because they're afraid to admit we're not the dominate team we're being made out to be.

 

Success doesn't come from maintaining what you have, it comes from constantly trying to improve on it.

 

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Would need to check, but pretty sure we have not drawn two in a row before today...

As happens, think its a very decent point today, more disappointed with Tuesday in truth.

0-0 at home Leyton Orient

1-1 away at Rochdale

2-2 at home Bradford

2-2 away today from my fixture/result paper

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That's one of the disadvantages of games in hand. You have to play them :(

Exactly would rather it how it is as we've banked them points where they got the pressure of having to get the win to get ahead which could just as easy leave them open at the back & on the end of a loss or draw. COYR!!!

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I've never once made any claims that we should walk every team in this league, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. What I said was our defence needs to improve, we're conceeding a lot of goals and it's resulting in us getting draws when a win was on the cards.

 

Would you be happy to throw away a historic start to a season because we started off with low expectations?! The most successful managers never do great and say "good enough", they strive to improve. I'm not complaining about our record, it's a great record but I am worried that this whole unbeaten streak is being used as a comfort blanket for some of our fans because they're afraid to admit we're not the dominate team we're being made out to be.

 

Success doesn't come from maintaining what you have, it comes from constantly trying to improve on it.

 

Where would you rather we sit in the division?

 

There are one or two teenagers on here who seem to think we are already promoted but, generally, no one thinks we are "dominant".

 

Our record is currently fantastic.  It seems that, despite being late October, that teams have not found us out (and we don't change the team very much....).

 

Preston are a threat to our top place.  However, they have won 6 games in a row.  Any team doing that deserves to be near or at the top.  We can't do anything about that.

 

Perhaps you should stop being a "glass half empty" guy and enjoy the league table which is not lying.

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I've never once made any claims that we should walk every team in this league, that is your interpretation of what I wrote. What I said was our defence needs to improve, we're conceeding a lot of goals and it's resulting in us getting draws when a win was on the cards.

 

Would you be happy to throw away a historic start to a season because we started off with low expectations?! The most successful managers never do great and say "good enough", they strive to improve. I'm not complaining about our record, it's a great record but I am worried that this whole unbeaten streak is being used as a comfort blanket for some of our fans because they're afraid to admit we're not the dominate team we're being made out to be.

 

Success doesn't come from maintaining what you have, it comes from constantly trying to improve on it.

 

No but I dislike your intrepretation of realism. You say the goals will dry up and our defence will then let us down. I am  more optimistic that our proven strikeforce will continue to score goals and that our comparatively young defence will learn from their errors and how to improve as individuals and a group. I don't see that a change in personnel or formation is needed to achieve this. 

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Where would you rather we sit in the division?

 

There are one or two teenagers on here who seem to think we are already promoted but, generally, no one thinks we are "dominant".

 

Our record is currently fantastic.  It seems that, despite being late October, that teams have not found us out (and we don't change the team very much....).

 

Preston are a threat to our top place.  However, they have won 6 games in a row.  Any team doing that deserves to be near or at the top.  We can't do anything about that.

 

Perhaps you should stop being a "glass half empty" guy and enjoy the league table which is not lying.

Again the glass half empty line, how is it being a glass half empty to identify a weakness and want to improve on it?! A glass half empty person would identify a weakness and be more than likely to think "well that cannot be fixed". 

As I've said before and you seem to ignore, our record is great, our position is great but our defensive performance is not and whilst being top of the league and unbeaten is great I can't see us being top of the league when it counts at the end of the season which is why I want us to take action now.

 

If there is one thing I've learned about this club is that we are more often than not too slow to react to issues that will affect us in the long run and I don't want to see that happen now as everything is finally starting to come together. If anything I'm wanting us to take positive action, to fix an issue before it gets out of hand, if you consider that being a glass half empty kind of person then you have a strange outlook on life from my point of view.

 

No but I dislike your intrepretation of realism. You say the goals will dry up and our defence will then let us down. I am  more optimistic that our proven strikeforce will continue to score goals and that our comparatively young defence will learn from their errors and how to improve as individuals and a group. I don't see that a change in personnel or formation is needed to achieve this. 

 
It is extremely rare for a team not to have a bad patch in a season, I'd much rather we didn't but realistically there is going to be a part of this season where we're struggling, especially when we've started in the manner we have. I never said the goals will dry up entirely but there will be times when we struggle to score and if our young defence can't handle the pressure when we're scoring for fun then how will they deal with the pressure when they need to perform more than ever?

The defence may come good but personally I'd rather we took an approach we haven't done for as long as I can remember and be ruthless, replace players who don't perform with players who can. I'm still a little irritated at how long we held onto some players who dragged us down, especially Fontaine, I'd rather too many players who are good than not enough, after all squad depth is a good thing.

Edited by Spike
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On Tuesday our defence conceded two goals and our central defender scored two.

Personally, I am happy if we concede two every game - provided that we score three.

Anyone remember that awful season under Osman when we had the second best defence in the league and finished in the bottom half?

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Again the glass half empty line, how is it being a glass half empty to identify a weakness and want to improve on it?! A glass half empty person would identify a weakness and be more than likely to think "well that cannot be fixed". 

As I've said before and you seem to ignore, our record is great, our position is great but our defensive performance is not and whilst being top of the league and unbeaten is great I can't see us being top of the league when it counts at the end of the season which is why I want us to take action now.

 

If there is one thing I've learned about this club is that we are more often than not too slow to react to issues that will affect us in the long run and I don't want to see that happen now as everything is finally starting to come together. If anything I'm wanting us to take positive action, to fix an issue before it gets out of hand, if you consider that being a glass half empty kind of person then you have a strange outlook on life from my point of view.

 

 
It is extremely rare for a team not to have a bad patch in a season, I'd much rather we didn't but realistically there is going to be a part of this season where we're struggling, especially when we've started in the manner we have. I never said the goals will dry up entirely but there will be times when we struggle to score and if our young defence can't handle the pressure when we're scoring for fun then how will they deal with the pressure when they need to perform more than ever?

The defence may come good but personally I'd rather we took an approach we haven't done for as long as I can remember and be ruthless, replace players who don't perform with players who can. I'm still a little irritated at how long we held onto some players who dragged us down, especially Fontaine, I'd rather too many players who are good than not enough, after all squad depth is a good thing.

 

 

 

Again the glass half empty line, how is it being a glass half empty to identify a weakness and want to improve on it?! A glass half empty person would identify a weakness and be more than likely to think "well that cannot be fixed". 

As I've said before and you seem to ignore, our record is great, our position is great but our defensive performance is not and whilst being top of the league and unbeaten is great I can't see us being top of the league when it counts at the end of the season which is why I want us to take action now.

 

If there is one thing I've learned about this club is that we are more often than not too slow to react to issues that will affect us in the long run and I don't want to see that happen now as everything is finally starting to come together. If anything I'm wanting us to take positive action, to fix an issue before it gets out of hand, if you consider that being a glass half empty kind of person then you have a strange outlook on life from my point of view.

 

 
It is extremely rare for a team not to have a bad patch in a season, I'd much rather we didn't but realistically there is going to be a part of this season where we're struggling, especially when we've started in the manner we have. I never said the goals will dry up entirely but there will be times when we struggle to score and if our young defence can't handle the pressure when we're scoring for fun then how will they deal with the pressure when they need to perform more than ever?

The defence may come good but personally I'd rather we took an approach we haven't done for as long as I can remember and be ruthless, replace players who don't perform with players who can. I'm still a little irritated at how long we held onto some players who dragged us down, especially Fontaine, I'd rather too many players who are good than not enough, after all squad depth is a good thing.

 

 

Didn't Cotterill say early on that we would concede goals, but aim to score even more, or something like this?

 

You say we draw too many - that's simply because we're drawing rather than losing.  We have the best points per game ratio in the entire football league, and even if we include the Premiership then only Chelsea have a better ratio.

 

I'm going out on limb here, but I would hazard a guess that Cotterill has noticed the ball going into our net.  He might even be thinking how to stop it happening so often.

 

Finally - why speculate about the risk that Cotterill will display the same faults (retaining players too long) that previous managers have?  He's shown himself happy to leave players like JET and El Bad out.  You might as well say that previous City managers have walked out on us, and we need to take action now to stop Cotterill doing the same.

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Talking of negativity.

 

I CAN remember the season under Osman. He scored quite a good goal at home, and got roundly booed by the whole ground.

 

Football? Fickle??

 

:laughcont:

 

 

TFR

I also remember when we were winning games in previous periods where people moaned it wasn't entertaining enough. You can't say that games that have a minimum of four goals in them are boring surely?

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Didn't Cotterill say early on that we would concede goals, but aim to score even more, or something like this?

 

You say we draw too many - that's simply because we're drawing rather than losing.  We have the best points per game ratio in the entire football league, and even if we include the Premier League then only Chelsea have a better ratio.

 

I'm going out on limb here, but I would hazard a guess that Cotterill has noticed the ball going into our net.  He might even be thinking how to stop it happening so often.

 

Finally - why speculate about the risk that Cotterill will display the same faults (retaining players too long) that previous managers have?  He's shown himself happy to leave players like JET and El Bad out.  You might as well say that previous City managers have walked out on us, and we need to take action now to stop Cotterill doing the same.

Yes he did but he also seemed pretty unhappy when we drew against Bradford which would lead me to believe he was not happy with that result and being as yesterday we gave up the lead to go behind I doubt very much that was in his plans either.

 

Yes at the moment we are drawing rather than losing but teams who get automatic promotion win games more than anything, I fail to see how we're going to keep winning games when we're conceding so much. As I said before you can go all season long without losing and get relegated, winning games is more important than not losing and there will come a point where we lose.

Looking at the winners and automatic promotion spots of previous seasons they've all had 24-31 wins, I fail to see how we'll reach that number if we can't secure up the defence as Bradford should have been a win but we dropped the ball there and yesterday we did not look like a team who could win that match either.

You can argue that right now "we have the best points per game ratio per game in the entire football league" but that is because we're on the best run in our history since 1909 according to what was said yesterday, do you really think that is going to continue all season long?

 

The simple fact is that we're not going to maintain this run all season long, not with the defence we have right now. I also know Cotterill will be wanting to stop us conceding so much, I'm sure he's already looking into it but I'm also sure Arsne Wenger is trying to get Arsenal to win the league and has been doing so for the past 11 years, doesn't mean they have the answers. Cotterill has shown us he can put confidence into the lads and motivate them but I'm still waiting to see us look capable and confident at defending.

 

With regards as to why I'm worried about Cotterill retaining players, I'm not, I'm worried he may not have a choice. This club has a history of shutting the purse when we're doing well and then overspending when things look like they need to be perked up, I'm worried that Cotterill may be told he has a squad capable of winning the league or gaining automatic promotion and being as we're undefeated this season he may have a hard time persuading the board/club otherwise. I'm not criticising Cotterill like you think I am, I'm more worried about how our board will work with him, he may be restricted from adding to the squad. My concern is how the club as a whole will react to the situation we have of our defence not being up to scratch as a whole, training, transfers, motivation etc

It's great to be where we are now but until the defence looks better I'm always going to want us to improve, I honestly don't remember the last time we had a solid defence that I was confident of, well unless I go back to the defence with Shaun Taylor which is what I think we're missing, a big strong, confident leader of the back line.

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Yes he did but he also seemed pretty unhappy when we drew against Bradford which would lead me to believe he was not happy with that result and being as yesterday we gave up the lead to go behind I doubt very much that was in his plans either.

 

Yes at the moment we are drawing rather than losing but teams who get automatic promotion win games more than anything, I fail to see how we're going to keep winning games when we're conceding so much. As I said before you can go all season long without losing and get relegated, winning games is more important than not losing and there will come a point where we lose.

Looking at the winners and automatic promotion spots of previous seasons they've all had 24-31 wins, I fail to see how we'll reach that number if we can't secure up the defence as Bradford should have been a win but we dropped the ball there and yesterday we did not look like a team who could win that match either.

You can argue that right now "we have the best points per game ratio per game in the entire football league" but that is because we're on the best run in our history since 1909 according to what was said yesterday, do you really think that is going to continue all season long?

 

The simple fact is that we're not going to maintain this run all season long, not with the defence we have right now. I also know Cotterill will be wanting to stop us conceding so much, I'm sure he's already looking into it but I'm also sure Arsne Wenger is trying to get Arsenal to win the league and has been doing so for the past 11 years, doesn't mean they have the answers. Cotterill has shown us he can put confidence into the lads and motivate them but I'm still waiting to see us look capable and confident at defending.

 

With regards as to why I'm worried about Cotterill retaining players, I'm not, I'm worried he may not have a choice. This club has a history of shutting the purse when we're doing well and then overspending when things look like they need to be perked up, I'm worried that Cotterill may be told he has a squad capable of winning the league or gaining automatic promotion and being as we're undefeated this season he may have a hard time persuading the board/club otherwise. I'm not criticising Cotterill like you think I am, I'm more worried about how our board will work with him, he may be restricted from adding to the squad. My concern is how the club as a whole will react to the situation we have of our defence not being up to scratch as a whole, training, transfers, motivation etc

It's great to be where we are now but until the defence looks better I'm always going to want us to improve, I honestly don't remember the last time we had a solid defence that I was confident of, well unless I go back to the defence with Shaun Taylor which is what I think we're missing, a big strong, confident leader of the back line.

 

We could have won that match up to the last minute. It's not a fair reflection of the match to say that we didn't look like we could win it. Barnsley played well, and of course they could have won it too, but we were going for the win up until the end of added time and might have got it on another day.

 

Of course we are letting in goals and it would be great if we weren't, but isn't being open at the back a function of playing defensive players who are looking to go forward? It looks that way to me. So on the one hand we create lots of opportunities to attack, on the other we allow other teams to attack us. In an ideal world they would lack the ability to do that, but there are two teams in the game and we're not that much better than the teams around us.

 

I think this maybe is a glass-half-full/empty thing. I've every confidence that the players we have will gel better as time goes by, and I'm delighted to be watching a side that seeks to attack.

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"I said in another thread how the last 3 seasons the automatic promotion teams did not draw more than 11 games (Wolves 10, Brentford 10, Doncaster Rovers 9, Bournemouth 11, Charlton 11, Sheffield Wednesday 9) whilst we're already at 6."

 

Ummm...

Last season Peterborough drew 5 games and came 6th in the table and they are still in this league. Maybe looking at wins, draws and losses would be a better way of making predictions?

 

Dare I say that the '2 points average' a game is the best promotion predictor around, and draws, wins and losses all contribute to that average. Basing our position on draws alone is like closing your eyes in darts and trying to get 180.

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Yes he did but he also seemed pretty unhappy when we drew against Bradford which would lead me to believe he was not happy with that result and being as yesterday we gave up the lead to go behind I doubt very much that was in his plans either.

 

Yes at the moment we are drawing rather than losing but teams who get automatic promotion win games more than anything, I fail to see how we're going to keep winning games when we're conceding so much. As I said before you can go all season long without losing and get relegated, winning games is more important than not losing and there will come a point where we lose.

Looking at the winners and automatic promotion spots of previous seasons they've all had 24-31 wins, I fail to see how we'll reach that number if we can't secure up the defence as Bradford should have been a win but we dropped the ball there and yesterday we did not look like a team who could win that match either.

You can argue that right now "we have the best points per game ratio per game in the entire football league" but that is because we're on the best run in our history since 1909 according to what was said yesterday, do you really think that is going to continue all season long?

 

The simple fact is that we're not going to maintain this run all season long, not with the defence we have right now. I also know Cotterill will be wanting to stop us conceding so much, I'm sure he's already looking into it but I'm also sure Arsne Wenger is trying to get Arsenal to win the league and has been doing so for the past 11 years, doesn't mean they have the answers. Cotterill has shown us he can put confidence into the lads and motivate them but I'm still waiting to see us look capable and confident at defending.

 

With regards as to why I'm worried about Cotterill retaining players, I'm not, I'm worried he may not have a choice. This club has a history of shutting the purse when we're doing well and then overspending when things look like they need to be perked up, I'm worried that Cotterill may be told he has a squad capable of winning the league or gaining automatic promotion and being as we're undefeated this season he may have a hard time persuading the board/club otherwise. I'm not criticising Cotterill like you think I am, I'm more worried about how our board will work with him, he may be restricted from adding to the squad. My concern is how the club as a whole will react to the situation we have of our defence not being up to scratch as a whole, training, transfers, motivation etc

It's great to be where we are now but until the defence looks better I'm always going to want us to improve, I honestly don't remember the last time we had a solid defence that I was confident of, well unless I go back to the defence with Shaun Taylor which is what I think we're missing, a big strong, confident leader of the back line.

 

What, you mean like the ever-improving Aden Flint?

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