Trouble vs Wall!!!!!!!!??????

[JulieH]

56 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Why does an official complaint need to be made? If cctv or a photo showed a person punching another person the police would pursue a case against the aggressor, whether the victim complained or not.

Whats the difference here therefore? Clearly the bully committed an offence and should be prosecuted and sacked.

Julie H is just ob, no friend of anyone on here and toes the party line.

Absolute ******* disgrace and one day (or night) the bullies are going to get an unwelcome response if they carry on like this.

An offcial complaint needs to be made to provide updates to the complainant. As i have previously pointed out they have seen the footage and clearly further investigation is needed, however there needs to be a complaint or witnesses that can add anything further otherwise there can be no update.

i like to think I have a mind of my own and do not tow the party line in this case, as there isn't a party line! I have consistently requested a complaint to be made, and have done exactly what I said I would throughout, if there are no further updates than I can't update anyone as I am not the investigating officer for these types of incidents.

[JulieH]

10 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Having undertaken baton training when I was in the military, I can tell you that the body is broken down into green, yellow and red zones depending on how much damage you wish to inflict on the target. The head is most definitely a red zone and you wouldn't strike at it unless you really wanted to stick someone on the deck. The use of baton's was introduced into the military for guard duties because you had little option between shouting at someone and shooting someone. The baton gave those standing guard a non-lethal method of escalating force. 

A strike to the head is is considered the strongest response to a threat short of shooting someone. 

We don't use that type of training with regards to zones. 

Howevr strikes to the head are deemed the most serious . 

[RaspberryRed]

6 minutes ago, JulieH said:

We don't use that type of training with regards to zones. 

Howevr strikes to the head are deemed the most serious . 

No shit Sherlock 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

27 minutes ago, JulieH said:

An offcial complaint needs to be made to provide updates to the complainant. As i have previously pointed out they have seen the footage and clearly further investigation is needed, however there needs to be a complaint or witnesses that can add anything further otherwise there can be no update.

i like to think I have a mind of my own and do not tow the party line in this case, as there isn't a party line! I have consistently requested a complaint to be made, and have done exactly what I said I would throughout, if there are no further updates than I can't update anyone as I am not the investigating officer for these types of incidents.

I understand the procedures about a complaint being needed to be made.

But surely until that occurs what is the use of a standards dept. if they cannot form a view as to the actions of this officer, given the video evidence, for instance are his actions directly in accordance with procedures that cover the use of batons in these situations?.

To strike out in the way he did you have to suspect that he was under some sort of direct threat so serious the person offering that threat has committed an arestable offence also that it would appear that no other officer in and around him reacted in the same way so presumably never perceived the same level of threat and also the said officer was the only officer wielding his baton continually in an aggressive manner over his shoulder pretty much throughout the whole video and he was on the move pretty much at all times during the incident once more unlike all of his colleagues around him.

I would expect a standards department to decide whether the officer broke protocol during the incident at any time and if he has and especially if that constituted a criminal offence investigate it as such.

 

 

[KevP]

I will be contacting the supporters trust to see if they would be prepared to make a complaint. If not I will do it.....there's no way an animal like that can just get away with it. What's the use of Police who are meant to uphold the law if they break it and it just gets swept under the carpet? The bloke he whacked basically collapsed and needed support from another officer. Bloody disgrace.

[lenred]

9 minutes ago, KevP said:

I will be contacting the supporters trust to see if they would be prepared to make a complaint. If not I will do it.....there's no way an animal like that can just get away with it. What's the use of Police who are meant to uphold the law if they break it and it just gets swept under the carpet? The bloke he whacked basically collapsed and needed support from another officer. Bloody disgrace.

Good on you mate for seeing this through. Like you say it's a disgrace if this one gets left behind and swept under the carpet. 

[42nite]

 

If my boss had a video presented to him showing me doing something very wrong, he would take the appropriate action.

He wouldn't turn a blind eye and wait for somebody to complain.  Why would he?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, 42nite said:

If my boss had a video presented to him showing me doing something very wrong, he would take the appropriate action.

He wouldn't turn a blind eye and wait for somebody to complain.  Why would he?

You would think so- hope so? Depends how very wrong for one doesn't it?

Second thing to consider? If the individual is a prized asset it may just be brushed under the carpet with some crossing of fingers. Seen it in workplaces, sure we all have.

I am NOT suggesting the police are doing it in this case by the way- just talking from experience.

[JulieH]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I understand the procedures about a complaint being needed to be made.

But surely until that occurs what is the use of a standards dept. if they cannot form a view as to the actions of this officer, given the video evidence, for instance are his actions directly in accordance with procedures that cover the use of batons in these situations?.

To strike out in the way he did you have to suspect that he was under some sort of direct threat so serious the person offering that threat has committed an arestable offence also that it would appear that no other officer in and around him reacted in the same way so presumably never perceived the same level of threat and also the said officer was the only officer wielding his baton continually in an aggressive manner over his shoulder pretty much throughout the whole video and he was on the move pretty much at all times during the incident once more unlike all of his colleagues around him.

I would expect a standards department to decide whether the officer broke protocol during the incident at any time and if he has and especially if that constituted a criminal offence investigate it as such.

 

 

You are correct that is what they will do. 

 

In in order to ascertain all of those facts particularly if the officer felt under direct threat then they will need witnesses from both sides of the line, and also see if there is any footage showing the other angle of the line. They can do that and will be able to report back , however as I have said they can report back to a complainant, I cannot complain on behalf of the fans on this forum, I have done as much as I can without an offcial complaint going in hence why I took advice from a senior officer who has stated that a complaint from someone on here would progress it and also give a contact for them to update when relevant 

 

[JulieH]

2 hours ago, KevP said:

I will be contacting the supporters trust to see if they would be prepared to make a complaint. If not I will do it.....there's no way an animal like that can just get away with it. What's the use of Police who are meant to uphold the law if they break it and it just gets swept under the carpet? The bloke he whacked basically collapsed and needed support from another officer. Bloody disgrace.

If u contact dollymarie or the other admins on here they will be able to help.

the monthly meeting is next weds which I will be present at and I am more than happy to discuss this then , or receive the written complaint to hand in. 

Meeting is normally 1st weds of the month 1930hrs in the supporters trust bar 

[Red Army 75]

Out of curiosity. What would a citizen get . For striking a policeman . In the same circumstances . As in unprovoked. Excessive force . The copper abused his power. He should be sacked at least 

[Abraham Romanovich]

39 minutes ago, JulieH said:

You are correct that is what they will do. 

In in order to ascertain all of those facts particularly if the officer felt under direct threat then they will need witnesses from both sides of the line, and also see if there is any footage showing the other angle of the line. They can do that and will be able to report back , however as I have said they can report back to a complainant, I cannot complain on behalf of the fans on this forum, I have done as much as I can without an offcial complaint going in hence why I took advice from a senior officer who has stated that a complaint from someone on here would progress it and also give a contact for them to update when relevant 

 

Only progress it when someone makes a complaint seems an odd way for the police to act - surely they are given guidance as to when and in what circumstances to use a baton and at the very least a senior officer would have looked at the video and already asked for the policeman's comments.

If this is not the case what confidence have the public that the said officer will not carry out a similar assault in different circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

[Northern Red]

55 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Out of curiosity. What would a citizen get . For striking a policeman . In the same circumstances . As in unprovoked. Excessive force . The copper abused his power. He should be sacked at least 

A lad who I used to work with did just that whilst several officers were trying to arrest him after a domestic. Pushed a WPC over, causing her to break a leg, and he ended up with 12 months after pleading guilty to GBH with intent to resist arrest. 

[KevP]

2 hours ago, JulieH said:

If u contact dollymarie or the other admins on here they will be able to help.

the monthly meeting is next weds which I will be present at and I am more than happy to discuss this then , or receive the written complaint to hand in. 

Meeting is normally 1st weds of the month 1930hrs in the supporters trust bar 

Thanks Julie and thanks for the time you've spent in pm's with me. However, I find the Police's stance immoral. You can judge by the threads on here how cross many supporters are. We don't know if the fan clubbed on the neck/shoulder/head was City or Millwall. That is irrelevant. He was ASSAULTED. As others have said on here ( Loon Plage, Esmond Millions Bung plus others ), you ( the Police ) have the evidence ( the dash cam footage ), you say the Police have seen it, so it should be acted on. This does I have to say, smack of cover up tactics. You yourself posted 21 and 26 August that it was being further investigated, and we would be updated ( see the Trouble v Wall thread ). We heard no more. You were challenged by SX227 in the Cardiff thread and 18 Sept said we would get updates. I then took this on and started PM with you and it all now boils down to a complaint being made, crazy to a lot of us, but true. Football fans get treated like Sh1te by many Police forces and this has to stop. This is another example that I'm sick of seeing. I will be contacting the Supporters Trust but yes, bring this up at the meeting by all means. I've not had anyone tell me they are prepared to make a complaint but I would request you do all you can based on mine, and others input on the Forum. Surely they are all complaints in themselves, or do we need to say " Dear Police Officer. I would like to complain about an incident....blah blah blah"...??

[Esmond Million's Bung]

40 minutes ago, KevP said:

Thanks Julie and thanks for the time you've spent in pm's with me. However, I find the Police's stance immoral. You can judge by the threads on here how cross many supporters are. We don't know if the fan clubbed on the neck/shoulder/head was City or Millwall. That is irrelevant. He was ASSAULTED. As others have said on here ( Loon Plage, Esmond Millions Bung plus others ), you ( the Police ) have the evidence ( the dash cam footage ), you say the Police have seen it, so it should be acted on. This does I have to say, smack of cover up tactics. You yourself posted 21 and 26 August that it was being further investigated, and we would be updated ( see the Trouble v Wall thread ). We heard no more. You were challenged by SX227 in the Cardiff thread and 18 Sept said we would get updates. I then took this on and started PM with you and it all now boils down to a complaint being made, crazy to a lot of us, but true. Football fans get treated like Sh1te by many Police forces and this has to stop. This is another example that I'm sick of seeing. I will be contacting the Supporters Trust but yes, bring this up at the meeting by all means. I've not had anyone tell me they are prepared to make a complaint but I would request you do all you can based on mine, and others input on the Forum. Surely they are all complaints in themselves, or do we need to say " Dear Police Officer. I would like to complain about an incident....blah blah blah"...??

I am surprised that our 'friends' at the Bristol Post haven't picked up on this yet, unusual for them to not get their headlines from OTIB for a change.

 

[KevP]

20 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I am surprised that our 'friends' at the Bristol Post haven't picked up on this yet, unusual for them to not get their headlines from OTIB for a change.

 

Mmmm....wonder why not......

[Esmond Million's Bung]

12 hours ago, KevP said:

Mmmm....wonder why not......

But strangely very quick to react to the CS spraying of the guy in Easton.

[phantom]

What sits badly with me is that anyone who has seen the video can see this policeman looked to lash out a few times before he actually did, and he was in a different place so would have assumedly had different people in front of him each time.

Then we are told that even though there is "clear as day" footage he can't be held accountable until someone makes a complaint!!

 

[poland_exile]

The police force have a very challenging job outside of football. However, experience suggests they're one of the nastiest mobs of all when it comes to the actual football! the fact that they appear to be brushing this incident off is revealing. 

And for all their community and fan initiatives, well, clearly this case just seems to prove that's all hot air and bluster. 

Imagine for one moment if the copper had been clobbered with a bit of wood by a city fan and it had all been recorded. What would happen? When the boot is on the other foot though, and it's the police dishing it out, don't you get the funny feeling that they're ready to close rank and forget this all happened? 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

There are certainly lawyers who specialise in police malpractice.

In this instance though, it would need to be the original victim- the complainant who should contact one of these. If the complainant indeed chooses to make a complaint- which so far doesn't seem to have been the case.

[Natchfever]

32 minutes ago, poland_exile said:

The police force have a very challenging job outside of football. However, experience suggests they're one of the nastiest mobs of all when it comes to the actual football! the fact that they appear to be brushing this incident off is revealing. 

And for all their community and fan initiatives, well, clearly this case just seems to prove that's all hot air and bluster. 

Imagine for one moment if the copper had been clobbered with a bit of wood by a city fan and it had all been recorded. What would happen? When the boot is on the other foot though, and it's the police dishing it out, don't you get the funny feeling that they're ready to close rank and forget this all happened? 

 

 

Theres a poster on here who is not a thug by any means, and a respectable businessman who was clumped by a mounted Heddlu whilst doing absolutely nothing, he received a nasty facial injury for his troubles, and when he went through official channels thats exactly what happened.

As you say, definitely a challenging job away from football but too many of them enjoy the matchday experience a little too much for my liking.

[howey_ducky]

On 9/25/2017 at 13:07, JulieH said:

An offcial complaint needs to be made to provide updates to the complainant. As i have previously pointed out they have seen the footage and clearly further investigation is needed, however there needs to be a complaint or witnesses that can add anything further otherwise there can be no update.

i like to think I have a mind of my own and do not tow the party line in this case, as there isn't a party line! I have consistently requested a complaint to be made, and have done exactly what I said I would throughout, if there are no further updates than I can't update anyone as I am not the investigating officer for these types of incidents.

grass.....

[KevP]

On 25/09/2017 at 17:02, JulieH said:

If u contact dollymarie or the other admins on here they will be able to help.

the monthly meeting is next weds which I will be present at and I am more than happy to discuss this then , or receive the written complaint to hand in. 

Meeting is normally 1st weds of the month 1930hrs in the supporters trust bar 

I have put this to the Supporters Trust who are going to let me know whether they will take it on. You will see from this thread how strongly people feel about this apparent Police brutality. The Tomlinson case has even been mentioned.

In my response Monday I asked you a question at the end, but sadly have heard no more....indeed it seems to have all gone quiet. Are the Police hoping we will forget...??

You say your colleagues have viewed the footage. For me 42 nite sums it up..."If my boss had a video presented to him showing me doing something very wrong, he would take the appropriate action. He wouldn't turn a blind eye and wait for somebody to complain.  Why would he?". Other threads hint at similar. Are the Police some sort of super force exempt from the law ?

A question if I may because our "justice system" is baffling me; Are you saying that even though the video evidence is there of some over the top would be Ninja Policeman whacking someone around the head/neck area, and the fact that literally dozens of fans on this Forum have made it clear they are not happy with what they've seen,  no more will happen unless an "official complaint" is made, so that "it can be reported back to someone" ???  So in the absense of "an official complaint"  said Officer will just walk free to act like that again and maybe seriously injure or maim someone ? I think this is the question many are asking. It's not about "needing someone to report back to"......it's about dealing with the matter that's staring you in the face and not looking for excuses.  

Feelings are clearly running high on this and justice needs to prevail. Otherwise we may as well employ Judge Dredd and his mates at future home games.

Over and out.

[JulieH]

8 minutes ago, KevP said:

I have put this to the Supporters Trust who are going to let me know whether they will take it on. You will see from this thread how strongly people feel about this apparent Police brutality. The Tomlinson case has even been mentioned.

In my response Monday I asked you a question at the end, but sadly have heard no more....indeed it seems to have all gone quiet. Are the Police hoping we will forget...??

You say your colleagues have viewed the footage. For me 42 nite sums it up..."If my boss had a video presented to him showing me doing something very wrong, he would take the appropriate action. He wouldn't turn a blind eye and wait for somebody to complain.  Why would he?". Other threads hint at similar. Are the Police some sort of super force exempt from the law ?

A question if I may because our "justice system" is baffling me; Are you saying that even though the video evidence is there of some over the top would be Ninja Policeman whacking someone around the head/neck area, and the fact that literally dozens of fans on this Forum have made it clear they are not happy with what they've seen,  no more will happen unless an "official complaint" is made, so that "it can be reported back to someone" ???  So in the absense of "an official complaint"  said Officer will just walk free to act like that again and maybe seriously injure or maim someone ? I think this is the question many are asking. It's not about "needing someone to report back to"......it's about dealing with the matter that's staring you in the face and not looking for excuses.  

Feelings are clearly running high on this and justice needs to prevail. Otherwise we may as well employ Judge Dredd and his mates at future home games.

Over and out.

As I have previously said I will again go to my boss and clarify that as it stands there is no complaint received with regards to this incident , therefore I will personally go again to professional standards and show them your private messages to me and ask them to treat the complaint from yourself to ensure it gets investigated as you have requested.

again if at some point you can pm me with contact details , an e mail address is fine and they can update you directly.

 

[KevP]

ANYONE ELSE PREPARED TO STEP FORWARD.....??? Waits for the rush........

[KevP]

11 minutes ago, JulieH said:

As I have previously said I will again go to my boss and clarify that as it stands there is no complaint received with regards to this incident , therefore I will personally go again to professional standards and show them your private messages to me and ask them to treat the complaint from yourself to ensure it gets investigated as you have requested.

again if at some point you can pm me with contact details , an e mail address is fine and they can update you directly.

 

Julie. It's simple. IT HAS TO BE INVESTIGATED FOR GODS SAKE !!! If not you may as well employ any thug who fancies hitting people for fun.

[Dollymarie]

2 minutes ago, KevP said:

Julie. It's simple. IT HAS TO BE INVESTIGATED FOR GODS SAKE !!! If not you may as well employ any thug who fancies hitting people for fun.

And Julie has said she is going to do her level best to ensure that happens? Why are you still berating her. If you ask me, she's gone above and beyond here. Why don't you come to next weeks SC&T meeting? Do you mind me asking who you spoke to from our end? She's asked for your contact details so she can get someone from professional standards to contact you directly, so I'd suggest you do that  

[KevP]

3 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

And Julie has said she is going to do her level best to ensure that happens? Why are you still berating her. If you ask me, she's gone above and beyond here. Why don't you come to next weeks SC&T meeting? Do you mind me asking who you spoke to from our end? She's asked for your contact details so she can get someone from professional standards to contact you directly, so I'd suggest you do that  

You need to read the whole thread, respectfully youve not seen my PMs with Julie so you cant comment on that.  If you saw it ALL you'd see my point. I'm not "berating" her.....I'm just saying what others feel and trying to get some answers regards WHY its so difficult to get this investigated and actioned. .  I spoke ( PMd Blagdon Red,  Phantom and others ). Blagdon said he would put it to "others" and get back to me.  Im not questioning whether shes "gone above or beyond" ...I simply cant see we've got any real answers as yet.... Many posters are questioning this .  I feel strongly about this hence I'm trying my best to get this moving. I thought Julie represented fans on here hence my involvement which I don't consider is berating anyone.  Judging by the likes on my responses many are with me on this.  And yes, she's JUST asked for my contact details so she will get those by PM.  OK ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I certainly agree with what @KevP has been writing Needs to be investigated and fully and honestly. Let's hope it will be.

2 hours ago, KevP said:

You say your colleagues have viewed the footage. For me 42 nite sums it up..."If my boss had a video presented to him showing me doing something very wrong, he would take the appropriate action. He wouldn't turn a blind eye and wait for somebody to complain.  Why would he?". Other threads hint at similar. Are the Police some sort of super force exempt from the law ?

I don't know about the bit I bolded though. How bad is bad...shades of grey? Bosses mate? Prime asset to the company? Bit of both- they may look the other way in many cases if they at all can- and not talking about police here, but business world...hmm. Put this way, if they fit that category- if it can be sort of swept aside a bit it will be in my experience.

[YorkshireSection]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 13:07, JulieH said:

An offcial complaint needs to be made to provide updates to the complainant. As i have previously pointed out they have seen the footage and clearly further investigation is needed, however there needs to be a complaint or witnesses that can add anything further otherwise there can be no update.

i like to think I have a mind of my own and do not tow the party line in this case, as there isn't a party line! I have consistently requested a complaint to be made, and have done exactly what I said I would throughout, if there are no further updates than I can't update anyone as I am not the investigating officer for these types of incidents.

Cant you just pass on the footage and info directly to the CPS, I'm sure you'd like to see this thug brought to justice as much as the average football supporter.