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CyderInACan

It all kicked off in Bristol (Merged)

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14 hours ago, Newquay-Red said:

Paul, having finished this book I must say there are a lot of profound contradictions here. You maintain an attitude that you never went for the 'scarfers', yet the very first chapter depicts you leading a brutal attack on a bunch of innocent Rovers fans who were most likely just there for the game. That is just nothing short of pathetic and a disgrace to the club. Many of your anecdotes are told in identical structures to the point where it conforms to a generic formula if 'We went to ____, found ____ and gave them a good hiding. We fought with the best!! etc etc'.

I can't help but feel there is a victim complex about you. Weirdly enough, policemen don't take kindly to known violent hooligans so why are you surprised at your treatment?  Your European tours contain particularly graphic scenes, all of which you funded by shoplifting. Did you expect a key to the best room in the British Embassy or something as a result of that behaviour?

I did enjoy some aspects, and how the book revealed a long gone element of supporter culture. I was interested by it in the same way that people slow down when they see car crashes. There are some hilarious stories in there, particularly the lock on the Tote End. I also found your story about the Stockport hooligans very funny. However most of it just gels together if you read it in one sitting to the point where it doesn't even become shocking any more.

For offering me a glimpse into a culture that existed before I was born and one that is often censored or difficult to learn about, I thank you. However, many stories really just reinforce the image of a pi**ed up sunburnt English hooligan wanting to fight for no rational reason. If there was a compliment I could think of, it's that thank god you are on this side! I hope the cost of the book goes towards helping your family and children, otherwise I can't help but feel a bit of buyers remorse on this one.

Thanks for the balanced review...I was going to buy it out of a passing interest but will give it a miss.

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Making no excuses for those chants (which I remember well) but Cardiff home and away were seriously dangerous games to attend. You were most likely to have a row IMO. I went to many of them in the 80s. Newport away was also a lively affair as they had a very active mob also. 

Nowadays apart from a bit of banter, Severnside derbies are fairly tame affairs apart from the odd bit of trouble. It was a different culture in the 80s and 90s compared to today. Hatred is too nice a word to describe anything Welsh in them days. Football culture in bygone eras was so different to today.  

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1 hour ago, GasDestroyer said:

Making no excuses for those chants (which I remember well) but Cardiff home and away were seriously dangerous games to attend. You were most likely to have a row IMO. I went to many of them in the 80s. Newport away was also a lively affair as they had a very active mob also. 

Nowadays apart from a bit of banter, Severnside derbies are fairly tame affairs apart from the odd bit of trouble. It was a different culture in the 80s and 90s compared to today. Hatred is too nice a word to describe anything Welsh in them days. Football culture in bygone eras was so different to today.  

Personally ithink the 70’s was worse than the 80’s & 90’s

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4 minutes ago, harrys said:

Personally ithink the 70’s was worse than the 80’s & 90’s

I remember my late sister phoning home from New Zealand when Manchester Utd fans went on a rampage down Coronation Road, because it had made headline news there. 

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On 12/02/2018 at 22:26, ziderheadarmy said:

Did city fans seriously use Aberfan as a way to wind up Cardiff?

I was born after Aberfan happened but I have read up on it and using the deaths of a generation of children can’t surely be fair game?

I never agreed with, or ever joined in with, the Aberfan chants....that was an horrific tragedy that should never have been used to wind up opposing football fans...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...

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20 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

You have to bear in mind that there were only 3 TV channels back then, just a few radio stations and most kids spent lots of time outside the house.  Even if the TV News was on, you never really listened to it, it was just a noise in the corner of the room.  Local newspapers wouldn't have reported it, just the Nationals. There was no Internet, no phones and sometimes, no electricity. Unless something happened in your neighbourhood, you probably didn't ever get to hear about it.

To most young City fans back then, it was just a Welsh name, which I'm guessing half the people chanting it, had no idea what it was all about. As far as I recall, It was never chanted at any other games than the Cardiff ones.

But the words to the chant made it obvious that City fans were taunting the welsh about kids being killed...it was just wrong

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14 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

 

70's and 80's Football, gigs, pubs it was warty.

 

 

I can remember a school friend being stopped outside a pub, a man inspecting the badge he was wearing then head butting him because it stated "Crass". Wearing the wrong clothes saw people being pursued up streets by gangs on motorbikes. Bath, BATH of all places had skinhead gangs. Football, music, politics and youth culture was frequently violent

It all can be put in the context of time. Paul Lumbers book good or bad  is part of that social history. 

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6 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

But the words to the chant made it obvious that City fans were taunting the welsh about kids being killed...it was just wrong

wrong yes, but mix football with rivalry, booze and mob mentality and the results are often predictable.  Then, further, as @Cowshed mentions, you have the context of the time when the football scene was decidedly more 'lively'. People got carried away, significantly so in many instances. Not one person on here is in any way defending the chants, and I  think the retrospective honesty / regret is to be applauded. 

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14 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I can remember going to a Wales v England international at Ninian Park just as the Falklands war started.

Sadly, the Wales fans were chanting Argentina at us. They obviously had no concept that Welsh sailors and soldiers were about to die as well as other British forces. It just goes to show how stupid some people are.

As bad as the Jocks can be on occasion. Celebrating the death of their own.

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26 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I remember my late sister phoning home from New Zealand when Manchester Utd fans went on a rampage down Coronation Road, because it had made headline news there. 

Just about every shop window smashed in North Street that day too iirc.

Someone I know was driving away from the 2nd division game v Man.Utd, just entering Coronation Road from Ashton Road when he accidentally knocked over a rampaging Man.Utd fan who had ran across his path, sending him flying.

He was just about to get out of the car to see how he was when a policeman charged over and frantically motioned for him to wind down the window.

He thought he was in trouble but the policeman just shouted. 'Drive on, drive on, get the hell out of here!'

We were parked over by the Nova Scotia that day and when we got back to the car you could still hear one hell of a racket coming from the direction of AG.

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46 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I never agreed with, or ever joined in with, the Aberfan chants....that was an horrific tragedy that should never have been used to wind up opposing football fans...

Definitely a sensitive point with my Dad, a lifelong City fan. Was at Cardiff university at the time of the disaster and was there as a volunteer in the subsequent clean up operation. He's never talked much about it.

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2 hours ago, Nicki's soulmate said:

Going to places like Cardiff, Birmingham, and Millwall the early 70's was hard work, no hiding in pubs and claiming a result

Cardiff was always the best crack though Millwall and Brum was fun.

Got done twice in them days and got probation and then 12 months .We had a good bunch of lads mostly from Hartcliffe,Withywood,Bedminster and Southmead.We ran our own coach and all looked after each other...Nobody ran although once or twice i shat myself

We made songs up about anything in them days and Aberfan just happened to be one.....I don't think anyone thought about what really happened over there regarding the kids.It was just a song to wind up the Taffs.

 

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Football hooligans are a funny enigma. 

When I was a teenager I remember idolizing them, thought it was brilliant. The beer, banter, belonging, clothes etc. Got into some trouble on away days and stuff too, notably Cardiff.

Looking back with older eyes, it's quite tragic really and glad I've grown up. 

I still cringe when seeing the 'CYF' (City Frontline Youth) in their matching Stone Island T-Shirts and expensive clothes paid for on Mum's credit card, but I have to remember we were like that once upon a time and it's a phase you learn from and grow out of.

 

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22 minutes ago, BobbyC said:

We made songs up about anything in them days and Aberfan just happened to be one.....I don't think anyone thought about what really happened over there regarding the kids.It was just a song to wind up the Taffs.

 

The big difference between now and back then, was there were no repercussions.....and no way of being identified doing anything wrong inside the stadium. It was a time when all sorts of nasty things were being mentioned by the majority of fans in the EE. Racism, Sexism, and many other 'ism's' , although completely wrong, were bog standard.

Times have changed (for the better).  If just one person chanted Aberfan today, he'd be removed, arrested and banned......and quite rightly so.

 

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29 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Football hooligans are a funny enigma. 

When I was a teenager I remember idolizing them, thought it was brilliant. The beer, banter, belonging, clothes etc. Got into some trouble on away days and stuff too, notably Cardiff.

Looking back with older eyes, it's quite tragic really and glad I've grown up. 

I still cringe when seeing the 'CYF' (City Frontline Youth) in their matching Stone Island T-Shirts and expensive clothes paid for on Mum's credit card, but I have to remember we were like that once upon a time and it's a phase you learn from and grow out of.

 

I think one of the issues now is, young lads dont have anything to attach themselves too. There arnt any youth groups, no boys clubs, for a lot of young lads being part of something at football is the only part of the week they can feel they are part of something.

Even going through the eras there has always been something, mods rockers, skinheads etc. What do young lads have now days?

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3 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

 What do young lads have now days?

Gender neutrality ?

Imagine their fashion sense :disapointed2se:

Edited by BigTone
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9 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

The big difference between now and back then, was there were no repercussions.....and no way of being identified doing anything wrong inside the stadium. It was a time when all sorts of nasty things were being mentioned by the majority of fans in the EE. Racism, Sexism, and many other 'ism's' , although completely wrong, were bog standard.

Times have changed (for the better).  If just one person chanted Aberfan today, he'd be removed, arrested and banned......and quite rightly so.

 

as someone who acted like a moron on occasion in the 90s, especially following England, I'm breathing a sigh of relief that episode occurred before youtube / social media, etc. We've all been young, and many of us were stupid. We've dodged a bullet! Those who are young and stupid now get no second chance before they're crucified in public and hung out to dry. 

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28 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

The big difference between now and back then, was there were no repercussions.....and no way of being identified doing anything wrong inside the stadium. It was a time when all sorts of nasty things were being mentioned by the majority of fans in the EE. Racism, Sexism, and many other 'ism's' , although completely wrong, were bog standard.

Times have changed (for the better).  If just one person chanted Aberfan today, he'd be removed, arrested and banned......and quite rightly so.

 

Just to confirm your point @RedLionLad.............

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43055965

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36 minutes ago, SARJ said:

Football hooligans are a funny enigma. 

When I was a teenager I remember idolizing them, thought it was brilliant. The beer, banter, belonging, clothes etc. Got into some trouble on away days and stuff too, notably Cardiff.

Looking back with older eyes, it's quite tragic really and glad I've grown up. 

I still cringe when seeing the 'CYF' (City Frontline Youth) in their matching Stone Island T-Shirts and expensive clothes paid for on Mum's credit card, but I have to remember we were like that once upon a time and it's a phase you learn from and grow out of.

 

Should that not be CFY?

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4 hours ago, Nicki's soulmate said:

Going to places like Cardiff, Birmingham, and Millwall the early 70's was hard work, no hiding in pubs and claiming a result

I got threatened by a grown man at Millwall aged 7....:laugh:!

 

 

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22 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I got threatened by a grown man at Millwall aged 7....:laugh:!

 

 

 

Aye, those grown men are getting younger by the day!

 

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2 hours ago, SARJ said:

I still cringe when seeing the 'CYF' (City Frontline Youth)

 

No fleas on those lads

Cat1.jpg

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5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I can remember a school friend being stopped outside a pub, a man inspecting the badge he was wearing then head butting him because it stated "Crass". Wearing the wrong clothes saw people being pursued up streets by gangs on motorbikes. Bath, BATH of all places had skinhead gangs. Football, music, politics and youth culture was frequently violent

It all can be put in the context of time. Paul Lumbers book good or bad  is part of that social history. 

I remember, after a match against Sheffield Wednesday back in the 1970s, walking back to the Centre to catch our bus home and being horrified at seeing a gang of City fans chasing a lone SW fan, a typical 'scarfer' - a long knitted woollen one at that - who, presumably out of pure fear, jumped over the barriers and in to the tarffic at Temple Way.

That same gang, upon reaching the Centre and, presumably, frustrated at losing their earlier prey, then proceeded to beat up a young man (again alone) as he was wearing an Afghan coat.  

 

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11 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

That same gang, upon reaching the Centre and, presumably, frustrated at losing their earlier prey, then proceeded to beat up a young man (again alone) as he was wearing an Afghan coat.  

If wearing an Afghan coat u deserve a hiding 

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I can vividly remember when a Rovers player died after an illness (I'm not going to mention his name) The next game after that was City v Rovers and a minutes silence was attempted, and all you could hear was , ******* is dead, ******* is dead hello, hello.  Can anyone imagine anything like that happening today?

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12 minutes ago, shelts said:

If wearing an Afghan coat u deserve a hiding 

No point doing that.... 

Given enough time the 'wildlife' making a home for itself in them coats eventually used to eat the wearers anyway :) 

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As much as I enjoyed the book. Some of the EE punch ups in 70's were pretty hard core.

My personal favorite away days were always Millwall and WHU. Millwall was just out and out 'come and have a go if you think your hard enough', West Ham was great as they liked to charge the fences between you to try and intimidate visiting supporters. 

Aldershot was similar and the pelting was always fun... :laugh:! Ive been hit with a shoe and whisky bottle there!~!

 

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On 12/02/2018 at 22:26, ziderheadarmy said:

Did city fans seriously use Aberfan as a way to wind up Cardiff?

I was born after Aberfan happened but I have read up on it and using the deaths of a generation of children can’t surely be fair game?

Remember watching the disaster on the telly my Uncle who was home on leave from the army went over to help as my Mums side of the family are Welsh.

 

But to my shame i sang i was 11 at the time every one else was doing it.

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25 minutes ago, shelts said:

If wearing an Afghan coat u deserve a hiding 

Not really funny.

I recall the young lad - late teens/early 20s - was just walking along minding his own business when he was set upon and beaten up quite badly - just because he was wearing an Afghan coat!

Hence the reason I responded to the post from @Cowshed.

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1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

I got threatened by a grown man at Millwall aged 7....:laugh:!

 

 

Remember a coach stopping at a few got off and crowded us in a shop doorway in east st cus mate threw apple at coach they scared the s&^% out of us

 

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12 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I can remember a school friend being stopped outside a pub, a man inspecting the badge he was wearing then head butting him because it stated "Crass". Wearing the wrong clothes saw people being pursued up streets by gangs on motorbikes. Bath, BATH of all places had skinhead gangs. Football, music, politics and youth culture was frequently violent

It all can be put in the context of time. Paul Lumbers book good or bad  is part of that social history. 

All the estates in Bristol had gangs in the 70's and early 80's. Knowle West and Southmead were probably the most notorious......Hartcliffe and Bedminster pretty close behind.

You could literally get your head kicked in for being on the wrong street.......or wearing the wrong type of jacket.

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On 13/02/2018 at 18:38, Moor2Sea said:

Yep. From recollection our lot chanted ‘Aberfan’, they then responded.... 

Is it just me that can remember there were lots of other words to the chant - it wasn’t just ‘Aberfan’ ?!

A few on this thread are saying stuff along the lines of ‘I didn’t realise what the chant was about’ - but the chant I’m thinking of made it very obvious....

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28 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Is it just me that can remember there were lots of other words to the chant - it wasn’t just ‘Aberfan’ ?!

A few on this thread are saying stuff along the lines of ‘I didn’t realise what the chant was about’ - but the chant I’m thinking of made it very obvious....

I can only remember the name itself being chanted.

 

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Great post SX227, I recognise some of the things you describe from the time I started watching City as a kid in the mid 80s.

I often think that if my son, or other children his age, had the same first experience of football matches today that I and everyone else had around that time they'd never return to the Gate. Not because kids today are particularly sensitive, but because society and football has changed so much in the last 30 years that the things that often happened back then would cause outrage today. 

Racist chanting towards Midlands based clubs, the 'N word' casually shouted at players, coins thrown at opposition goalkeepers, running the gauntlet outside football grounds every week, high fences separating fans....it's a different World today. Not saying these things don't still happen from time to time but it's nowhere near the same level.

Never heard the Aberfan chant, obviously I know what it refers to. According to Cardiff City fans there were other clubs who used to sing it. Like many things in Football from the 70s/80s/90s it just wouldn't happen today. 

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9 hours ago, SX227 said:

Someone put it better than me earlier - context.

At the time, it seemed nothing was out of bounds.

Broadmead on a weekend was always skins v mods v scooter boys v punks - every bloody weekend.

A different coloured flight jacket mean different political leanings. That lead quickly to a mass fight.

Different suburbs always were scrapping with each other, different schools even.

The 70's were just plain violent. Early 80's too.

Nothing was out of bounds. Nothing.

The darts really were thrown at you, as were the bricks, bottles, piss and rocks.

People really did go out with Stanley knives.

Football was just friggin brutal somedays.

There was a thread somewhere about City fans not helping an old bloke - back then you were just glad to see other faces you knew.

It didn't always work out well - I remember the bogs between the Magic roundabout and Swindons ground - 3 very young City were chased in by about 3 of theirs - me and a mate helped out. Sadly there were another 4 or 5 Swindon who proceeded to kick us both silly, but other City turned up and the 3 kids escaped unharmed.

Its what you did.

Britain at the time was a mess. The scooter rallies were riots all the time (remember them), parts of the UK were in flames. Policemen were being decapitated during riots.

Newport, Aldershot, Swindon, West ham all resembled Middle East war zones for an hour or two - and Millwall at the gate - jesus, you just had to be there to believe it.

From Train,coach or car to the pub or ground was often indescribable.

People not of a certain age cannot imagine the amount of people involved at times.

The same as when Spurs, Everton, (probably the 2 hardest to shift out the EE - if they ever got shifted at all)  and Leeds (who failed miserably) came to AG.

So was the Aberfan song sung - yes

Looking back - I feel utterly ashamed to have sung it, but at the time, nobody who went to football regularly, gave a shit about Cardiff or Newport fans feelings.

It was simply a different time, and those who did not live through it cannot, and will not ever understand.

I can guarantee you though that now, every single person who ever sang that vile song is sick to their stomach.

2018 is not, and will never be 1978

 

Pretty much sums it up

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17 hours ago, SX227 said:

Someone put it better than me earlier - context.

At the time, it seemed nothing was out of bounds.

Broadmead on a weekend was always skins v mods v scooter boys v punks - every bloody weekend.

A different coloured flight jacket mean different political leanings. That lead quickly to a mass fight.

Different suburbs always were scrapping with each other, different schools even.

The 70's were just plain violent. Early 80's too.

Nothing was out of bounds. Nothing.

The darts really were thrown at you, as were the bricks, bottles, piss and rocks.

People really did go out with Stanley knives.

Football was just friggin brutal somedays.

There was a thread somewhere about City fans not helping an old bloke - back then you were just glad to see other faces you knew.

It didn't always work out well - I remember the bogs between the Magic roundabout and Swindons ground - 3 very young City were chased in by about 3 of theirs - me and a mate helped out. Sadly there were another 4 or 5 Swindon who proceeded to kick us both silly, but other City turned up and the 3 kids escaped unharmed.

Its what you did.

Britain at the time was a mess. The scooter rallies were riots all the time (remember them), parts of the UK were in flames. Policemen were being decapitated during riots.

Newport, Aldershot, Swindon, West ham all resembled Middle East war zones for an hour or two - and Millwall at the gate - jesus, you just had to be there to believe it.

From Train,coach or car to the pub or ground was often indescribable.

People not of a certain age cannot imagine the amount of people involved at times.

The same as when Spurs, Everton, (probably the 2 hardest to shift out the EE - if they ever got shifted at all)  and Leeds (who failed miserably) came to AG.

So was the Aberfan song sung - yes

Looking back - I feel utterly ashamed to have sung it, but at the time, nobody who went to football regularly, gave a shit about Cardiff or Newport fans feelings.

It was simply a different time, and those who did not live through it cannot, and will not ever understand.

I can guarantee you though that now, every single person who ever sang that vile song is sick to their stomach.

2018 is not, and will never be 1978

 

That was how it was. I still loved it. I can remember my old man grabbing my collar and my legs were still moving as I started to run toward West Ham on the EE. :laugh:. Different days.

Riots at football and all over the UK Birmingham Bristol London with bits burning and body parts on the tv after another IRA Bomb. 

Anyone under 40 would have little clue! What ever you think about the book it’s living history of more violent days

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On 14/02/2018 at 15:48, WhistleHappy said:

No point doing that.... 

Given enough time the 'wildlife' making a home for itself in them coats eventually used to eat the wearers anyway :) 

Never owned one so can’t say!!

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On 14/02/2018 at 16:01, PHILINFRANCE said:

Not really funny.

I recall the young lad - late teens/early 20s - was just walking along minding his own business when he was set upon and beaten up quite badly - just because he was wearing an Afghan coat!

Hence the reason I responded to the post from @Cowshed.

Was trying a little bit of humour as it was quite a while ago. 

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1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

That was how it was. I still loved it. I can remember my old man grabbing my collar and my legs were still moving as I started to run toward West Ham on the EE. :laugh:. Different days.

Riots at football and all over the UK Birmingham Bristol London with bits burning and body parts on the tv after another IRA Bomb. 

Anyone under 40 would have little clue! What ever you think about the book it’s living history of more violent days

The people who slag the book off on here will be the ones that were probably not even about in the 70s and 80s.

It is actually a very good read IMO. SX227 is spot on!

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32 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

The people who slag the book off on here will be the ones that were probably not even about in the 70s and 80s.

It is actually a very good read IMO. SX227 is spot on!

Yeah I finished it last week.

I was shocked by the righteousness of some on here. I lived down the road from an IRA bombing and remember the carnage and the news coverage of that and similar ones every day.

I was at many/most games from an early age going back to when the Dolman was being built. Post war social issues were huge. My own family still lived in a pre fab and Saturday night could be pretty intense with fighting in working men’s clubs. That’s just me !!

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1 hour ago, GasDestroyer said:

The people who slag the book off on here will be the ones that were probably not even about in the 70s and 80s.

The fact that so many have never heard of Aberfan or the Swiss Air Disaster is testament to that.  The 70's were a great time to grow up as long as you were careful. The music was original for one thing instead of manufactured crap.  I mentioned in a previous post that I had long hair and wore a great coat which was seen as manna from heaven for the marauding Skins of Bristol to hunt down and kick 12 levels of shite out of. Did they care I supported the same football team as them ........ nah.  Did they like the same "heavy" music as me ........ nah.  Would I want to grow up in another era ......... nah.

I sometimes think that growing up in that era has helped toughen me up in later life. At aged 16 I left school and moved to Australia (on my own). I worked 6 days a week whilst studying on a day a week day release and night school.  I look at my own kids and frankly they haven't got a clue !!

Edited by BigTone
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55 minutes ago, BigTone said:

The fact that so many have never heard of Aberfan or the Swiss Air Disaster is testament to that.  The 70's were a great time to grow up as long as you were careful. The music was original for one thing instead of manufactured crap.  I mentioned in a previous post that I had long hair and wore a great coat which was seen as manna from heaven for the marauding Skins of Bristol to hunt down and kick 12 levels of shite out of. Did they care I supported the same football team as them ........ nah.  Did they like the same "heavy" music as me ........ nah.  Would I want to grow up in another era ......... nah.

I sometimes think that growing up in that era has helped toughen me up in later life. At aged 16 I left school and moved to Australia (on my own). I worked 6 days a week whilst studying on a day a week day release and night school.  I look at my own kids and frankly they haven't got a clue !!

True Tone, I remember a Skinhead/Heavy crossover when Motörhead or Cockney Rejects played due mainly to the (at the time) big Speed scene...

It was strange that we had to ascribe to a certain youth sub-culture to gain acceptance, I  spose it's just how it was...

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