Patience is required

[...]

......... someone quoted the run going back 25+ games and, if correct, it is utterly shocking.

People say it is a results business, don't they?

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Ps question for other fans as I am struggling to think.

When was the last time we had a bad start to the season and turned it round under the same manager? I really am struggling to remember. (GJ joined mid season so does not count).

GJ joined in September 2005 - hardly mid-season?

[Robbored]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It does if you can’t get out of it. 

If you can’t get out of it in 42 matches then you deserve to get relegated.

[LondonBristolian]

17 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

GJ joined in September 2005 - hardly mid-season?

Sure but not from the start either...

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

My guess is that we fans expect to be there or thereabouts every season. Win more games that we lose and in my case playing attractive football and feeling that I’m being entertained.

SLs long term project is to reach the PL but not by buying promotion but by having a squad made up of a blend of local  players and others that City have brought in. He sees LJ as the man to implement it. All this will take time of course but, quite rightly SL is expecting signs of progress this season and that must mean a higher league finish. 

I’d be happy with that as I’m sure most fans would be.

 

 

 

I believe most fans this season would settle for a win, draw, lose sequence throughout the forty six games. 

With the record since January first 2018, do you believe we can improve enough to achieve that? 

Well I don't unless there is a momentous upward shift in our performances. 

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I believe most fans this season would settle for a win, draw, lose sequence throughout the forty six games. 

With the record since January first 2018, do you believe we can improve enough to achieve that? 

Well I don't unless there is a momentous upward shift in our performances. 

The project is a work in progress and like most projects things take time to develop. 

Im confident results will improve when LJ has fully fit squad to select from. He hasn’t has that luxury for months and months.

 

[DT The Optimist]

Its a good post.  LJ will divide the fan base because everyone demands results, it is a 'result' driven industry whether we like it or not. sadly, since December  2017 the results simply have not been there, what 4 wins!   And i  for one do buy into the argument that the slate is wiped clean with the start of a new season, and a now with a 'new team' and we have 4 games and no win.  So straight away the knives are out and the fat lady is singing.

 

On top of that you add on the 'Tippy Tap' football.  I asked about that in a thread here a week or so ago.  Possession based football, in your own half a lot of time, creating the 'square root' of **** all.  Yesterday we had 67% of the ball.  Bolton other week 70%..  For this type of football to be successful you need really good midfielders who can play fantastic defence splitting balls . (Chelsea and Arsenal match yesterday an example). Pack played one such ball at Bolton for our first goal.  yesterday not a hint of it.  It was so easy for Boro, that I thought Pulis could have gone shopping at the Mall at half time. Same really against Plymuff.  

No matter what the philosophy of the club is, you still need results, and I hope they come, but lets wait and judge where we are in start of winter.  QPR is now a really interesting fixture. Not normally a happy hunting ground for us. 

 

SL stated that he was not that happy with us finishing mid table in that interview before the Sheff Utd game, considering where we had been at Xmas.  He will be more unhappy end of October time IF  we are bobbing along round the bottom of the table. 

[Alan Dicks]

Patience???

I've waited patiently since 1980 for a return to top flight football.

In that time I've been married twice, divorced once, had two kids, one grandchild with one on the way. 

Seen my hair decrease and turn grey.

 lost 3 teeth, and devolope dodgy knees.

Im about 4 stone heavier even after my recent diet.

Have seen new gadgets like mobile phones, pcs, tablets and flat screen tvs, not too mention a thousand extra tv channels.

I've seen the likes of Blackpool Huddersfield Swansea Bournmouth Cardiff QPR Reading Watford Palace Charlton Millwall Wimbledon Stoke Blackburn Burnley and even Oldham play in the top flight of English football.

DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT PATIENCE!!!

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

The project is a work in progress and like most projects things take time to develop. 

Im confident results will improve when LJ has fully fit squad to select from. He hasn’t has that luxury for months and months.

 

A project by definition has an end point, it cannot be ongoing if it is a project.

I think clarity of the overarching objective of the project is needed...and the timeline.  Perhaps a question to ask at the next Senior Reds meeting or SL’s business breakfasts? 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

A project by definition has an end point, it cannot be ongoing if it is a project.

I think clarity of the overarching objective of the project is needed...and the timeline.  

The end point will be when/if City reach the PL. As for the timeline, only SL can tell you that.

At a guess I’d say within the next few seasons - assuming SL sees progress after each campaign.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

The end point will be when/if City reach the PL. As for the timeline, only SL can tell you that.

At a guess I’d say within the next few seasons - assuming SL sees progress after each campaign.

Need to change the terminology - that’s not a project!  Not your terminology though I accept.

[Red Exile]

2 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

Patience???

I've waited patiently since 1980 for a return to top flight football.

In that time I've been married twice, divorced once, had two kids, one grandchild with one on the way. 

Seen my hair decrease and turn grey.

 lost 3 teeth, and devolope dodgy knees.

Im about 4 stone heavier even after my recent diet.

Have seen new gadgets like mobile phones, pcs, tablets and flat screen tvs, not too mention a thousand extra tv channels.

I've seen the likes of Blackpool Huddersfield Swansea Bournmouth Cardiff QPR Reading Watford Palace Charlton Millwall Wimbledon Stoke Blackburn Burnley and even Oldham play in the top flight of English football.

DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT PATIENCE!!!

 

Excellent post! The marital harmony has been better in the Exile household and we await the grandchildren...but I stand in solidarity with you in your impatience...Oldham! Wimbledon! Bournemouth!...jeez...City fans have had the patience of saints...

[Alan Dicks]

12 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Excellent post! The marital harmony has been better in the Exile household and we await the grandchildren...but I stand in solidarity with you in your impatience...Oldham! Wimbledon! Bournemouth!...jeez...City fans have had the patience of saints...

I forgot Wigan

[Alan Dicks]

4 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

I forgot Wigan

And Swindon

[Simez]

33 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

And Swindon

And Bradford. 

[The Gasbuster]

3 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

Patience???

I've waited patiently since 1980 for a return to top flight football.

In that time I've been married twice, divorced once, had two kids, one grandchild with one on the way. 

Seen my hair decrease and turn grey.

 lost 3 teeth, and devolope dodgy knees.

Im about 4 stone heavier even after my recent diet.

Have seen new gadgets like mobile phones, pcs, tablets and flat screen tvs, not too mention a thousand extra tv channels.

I've seen the likes of Blackpool Huddersfield Swansea Bournmouth Cardiff QPR Reading Watford Palace Charlton Millwall Wimbledon Stoke Blackburn Burnley and even Oldham play in the top flight of English football.

DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT PATIENCE!!!

 

Good post, as pointed out by others.

I am paying close attention to Portsmouth. There is every chance they will be back in the Prem again, before we manage to get our act together.

Over the last 10 years they will have fallen out of the Prem, all the way to the bottom, gone bust, and reformed.

They are on their way back now; whilst we have been floundering for God knows how long. Just watch them return to the Prem before we get there, and in that shitty stadium of theirs, with a capacity of less then 20k.  

[Chairman Mao]

I think, for a change, I am on LJ'side for now. There is the nucleus of a good team there. We are creating chances and our main striker is yet to return. Once the defence gells they will be more solid. Give it till September end before throwing your toys out of the pram folks.

[stortfordred]

God only knows I appreciate that we’re in an amount of doggy doo doo but ‘floundering for years’? Get f’ing real man! I went to watch Leyton Orient about two years ago. Solid league record but never out of League 1 or 2. They were playing poor stuff and their long suffering fans have never tasted victory against four prem teams on the bounce, Championship football or 20000+ crowds. Two years later non-league! I also give you Wrexham, Chester and numerous others. Get real,,

[TonyTonyTony]

11 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

I think, for a change, I am on LJ'side for now. There is the nucleus of a good team there. We are creating chances and our main striker is yet to return. Once the defence gells they will be more solid. Give it till September end before throwing your toys out of the pram folks.

Far too sensible mate.

100 percent correct. City are a big momentum team - like all teams really but I think players like Pato etc are big confidence players. I reckon a couple of wins even flukey ones we will get on a roll.

Hopefully starting against QPR - go there and batter them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sometimes wonder if we're sated by success a bit- now more expecting than hoping as a fanbase.

Few years ago, Middlesbrough would have been a game we would all have got up for from the off. Yet it was fairly flat I thought, but a few years ago the crowd would have been pretty noisy, team might have got quite fired up, few big tackles- and the 2 perhaps feed off each other and build momentum (talking on the day, not necessarily long term).

Great example of this was Norwich back in January, crowd very flat that day a few days after we took Man City to the wire at their place.  Also when we were 3 up at home v admittedly a very poor Sunderland back in February, the crowd was not as buoyant as might have been expected. Didn't hear all that much booing Saturday though, but that debate aside wondering if we're now more expecting to be entertained/delivered for and responding as a crowd, rather than the other way round?

[supercidered]

19 hours ago, Robbored said:

Fans patience is irrelevant to those who make the decisions. Do you suppose that MA is bothered  by how thin the fans patience is? 

Not in slightest!

Not sure I agree with this. Many a time an owner / chairman has dispensed with a manager because of fan pressure.

SL is more patient than most but as and when LJ uses up his seemingly large supply of credit. Fan pressure will play a part imo.

 

[EnderMB]

I agree that patience is required, but not for the reasons you've posted.

I've said on here for years - "if the fans are worried about FFP/your wage/transfer budget, you won't get promotion". The big difference between Bristol City and clubs that actually have a shot at promotion is that the fans of other teams want to spend, and their club has the means to spend because the club is better at generating revenue. That is Lansdown's failing, because despite all the work he's put into the club, it still doesn't generate much money outside of transfer business - the BBC report on clubs that require fan support shows this.

Patience is required because we've struggled against teams that are better than us, so I'm not worried about those results. I was worried about the Plymouth game, but then again that's a cup in a season of transition, so arguably a competition that doesn't require focus. We need more games to show what the team we now have can do, and I don't worry until a few more games into the season.

In regards to holes in the team, we've had holes in the team for years now. This season is no different, except these holes become opportunities. Reid took that opportunity last season, and now other players need to step up. If they cannot step up in the next 5 games, then we have a problem.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

I agree that patience is required, but not for the reasons you've posted.

I've said on here for years - "if the fans are worried about FFP/your wage/transfer budget, you won't get promotion". The big difference between Bristol City and clubs that actually have a shot at promotion is that the fans of other teams want to spend, and their club has the means to spend because the club is better at generating revenue. That is Lansdown's failing, because despite all the work he's put into the club, it still doesn't generate much money outside of transfer business - the BBC report on clubs that require fan support shows this.

Patience is required because we've struggled against teams that are better than us, so I'm not worried about those results. I was worried about the Plymouth game, but then again that's a cup in a season of transition, so arguably a competition that doesn't require focus. We need more games to show what the team we now have can do, and I don't worry until a few more games into the season.

In regards to holes in the team, we've had holes in the team for years now. This season is no different, except these holes become opportunities. Reid took that opportunity last season, and now other players need to step up. If they cannot step up in the next 5 games, then we have a problem.

Reid last year- may have just been a wonder year, but wow. 19 goals and 7 assists- like a decent number 10 and a prolific striker rolled into 1!

That's 26 goals basically.

BBC report on clubs that require fan support? Interesting, have you a link? Would be a decent read I feel.

The difference with a fair few clubs and us- Leeds and maybe one or 2 others like Villa a big exception- is parachute payments basically. We are catching up in generating revenue in a non transfer sense...but it's still catch up. Leeds are a fairly big draw, plus Leeds itself is a pretty commercial city with one team so lots of businesses in that city are probably quite keen to get their exposure, do deals with them etc. I reckon in many respects our revenue generation ability is around midtable in this division.

[EnderMB]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Reid last year- may have just been a wonder year, but wow. 19 goals and 7 assists- like a decent number 10 and a prolific striker rolled into 1!

That's 26 goals basically.

BBC report on clubs that require fan support? Interesting, have you a link? Would be a decent read I feel.

The difference with a fair few clubs and us- Leeds and maybe one or 2 others like Villa a big exception- is parachute payments basically. We are catching up in generating revenue in a non transfer sense...but it's still catch up. Leeds are a fairly big draw, plus Leeds itself is a pretty commercial city with one team so lots of businesses in that city are probably quite keen to get their exposure, do deals with them etc. I reckon in many respects our revenue generation ability is around midtable in this division.

Full props to LJ for pushing Reid as a forward. That can't be taken from him. The problem is that it came from nowhere, and if the experiment didn't take off then our season would've looked terrible. We had just lost Tammy Abraham, after all.

On the BBC front, it was the article being posted last week regarding Premier League teams that could play without fans at games. On the reverse table, it says that we are 9th out of all recent Premier League and Football League teams, which is a shocking statistic despite it being limited to those that break down their matchday/ticket revenue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888

Regarding parachute payments, you're absolutely right, but that will never change. Clubs will get relegated, and clubs will make money from parachute payments. If we can't surpass teams because of money, then why bother? We've already peaked at mid-table.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

Full props to LJ for pushing Reid as a forward. That can't be taken from him. The problem is that it came from nowhere, and if the experiment didn't take off then our season would've looked terrible. We had just lost Tammy Abraham, after all.

On the BBC front, it was the article being posted last week regarding Premier League teams that could play without fans at games. On the reverse table, it says that we are 9th out of all recent Premier League and Football League teams, which is a shocking statistic despite it being limited to those that break down their matchday/ticket revenue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888

Regarding parachute payments, you're absolutely right, but that will never change. Clubs will get relegated, and clubs will make money from parachute payments. If we can't surpass teams because of money, then why bother? We've already peaked at mid-table.

Ah yeah. Seen that article- just looked at the table though, and I'm pretty sure the figures a lot better than 5 years ago...but we're undoubtedly playing catch-up. Lots of sides at this level have had those facilities for years. All those moves to new grounds in the 90's and early 2000's? Created plenty of corporate facilities as well as exec boxes.

Teams can be surpassed, and parachute payments are no guarantee of success at all, but teams have to be extremely clever in recruitment, how they re-invest and very well coached indeed. Brilliantly run, selling star players and progressing is incredibly difficult- 'adequate' or 'okay' isn't good enough in terms of the recruitment and replacement model. I don't think our recruitment has been terrible last few years...but nor has it been outstanding. Plus a coaching setup that improves say 90% of players who join is important- unsure we have this either.

Having looked again at the table, think it's only fair to disregard sides who are in receipt of parachute payments from it as they even in year 4 in some cases, 3 in the other because they keep changing it...still has a big distorting effect.

[Davefevs]

I agree, that patience is required.  I’ve said several times that this season will be a bit of a slow burner to start with, partly due to fixtures, but also because we’ve lost 3 major players.  It’s not necessarily that the players will take time to gel, I think it’s LJ won’t know his best eleven due to the churn.  That sounds like a bit of an excuse....it probably is....but the side that started v Forest had Bryan, was missing Diedhiou, possibly Wright.  That’s 3 changes from what may have been in Lee’s head.  Having now seen 4 matches, he might think that there are different combos out there.

I do think that criticising LJ is pounced upon by many as “Johnson Out”.  I was critical of the positions he put players in, but doesn’t mean I want him out.  I understood his logic but it didn’t work out.  Imho he got the positions of Kelly and Pisano right (I would’ve played Pisano CB and Kelly LB), but Weimann, Paterson and Watkins wrong.  I would’ve played Weimann no9, Pato no10 and Watkins LW.

What we do need is a win to take some pressure off, the run from last season has to be taken into account, because it is forced down your throats, a win will go some way to alleviating some pressure.

10 games is a lot, but I think that’s is the point to evaluate properly.  Obviously that is brought forward if you keep losing.  But we've only lost once so far....so we need a bit of balance.

[RobintheRed Red]

21 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

True, but exactly when do you envisage this trigger point,you could tell yesterday from the  to geecomplete lack of atmosphere that people were apathetic ,and resigned to losing , very quickly this will turn to anger if we continue to look so completely lost.

Do not  even get even me started on Patterson trying to gee up the crowd, what exactly did he expect.

Patterson I've been trying to gee  him up for six months