Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2022 (edited) On 22/03/2022 at 18:38, Mr Popodopolous said: Small FFP update, not specifics more to look out for and try to extrapolate perhaps... This includes both clubs at this level right now, clubs who were at this level but went up last season and those who went down. In alphabetical order. I won't include a range of subsidiaries if it's multilayered, merely the club and probable parent entity. Accounts for 2020/21 due at end of March 2022 West Brom- or is it WBA Holdings or Group? In fact, WBA's are due at the end of April it seems- just checked again. Edited March 24, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) Bournemouth Had a quick look at some of the headline numbers. Shock! Made a pre tax PROFIT of £16.95m. Assisted amply by Profit on disposal of players £55.79m. Wage bill < £50m, not bad and amortisation down about a quarter. Timing differences also helped, owing to the delay in 2019/20 the PL TV money distribution wasn't quite right hence clubs due to Covid saw an artificial boost in 2020/21. Like an increasing although still small number of clubs they had the foresight to take out Business Interruption Insurance- £2.5m. Think Blackburn, Preston and possibly even Birmingham all had some form of it. Leeds too in 2019/20 maybe? https://www.afcb.co.uk/media/200939/afc-bournemouth-limited-financial-statements-ye-30-june-2021-smaller-size.pdf FFP wise, their Upper Loss Tariff to 2021/22 is £72m so I think they'll be alright for now. Maybe a different story if they stay down. That said I wonder...it said in Post Balance Sheet events that they only brought in £19m of fees this season but I'm sure players going to La Liga and the like generated more? Probably okay but... Edited March 29, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) Bit on Bournemouth- not me but a Bournemouth fan who has delved in etc! Quite the spreadsheet! Edited March 29, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Bit on Bournemouth- not me but a Bournemouth fan who has delved in etc! Quite the spreadsheet! P&S Porn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Fulham, Kinnell. Suddenly Stoke's losses don't look so bad set against it. Granted one year had Promotion bonuses excluded from FFP but one had PL TV cash aka last season! Struggling to square their losses to 2021, perhaps to 2022 with FFP compliance so far. As well as the usual costs of course though, there is Covid impact, make their Upper Loss Limit to 2021 as indeed to 2022 £72m after all add-backs. 2019/20 and 2020/21 aggregated and halved of cours Edited March 30, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 30, 2022 Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Fulham, Kinnell. Suddenly Stoke's losses don't look so bad set against it. Granted one year had Promotion bonuses excluded from FFP but one had PL TV cash aka last season! Struggling to square their losses to 2021, perhaps to 2022 with FFP compliance so far. As well as the usual costs of course though, there is Covid impact, make their Upper Loss Limit to 2021 as indeed to 2022 £72m after all add-backs. 2019/20 and 2020/21 aggregated and halved of cours I’ve had a quick scan of the accounts….do you have the Promotion Bonus amount and which year it fell into….it didn’t jump out at me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 27 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I’ve had a quick scan of the accounts….do you have the Promotion Bonus amount and which year it fell into….it didn’t jump out at me? The best estimate I've seen is £20m but yeah it's not stated or separately listed is it, agreed. It is as a rule included within the total wage bill while being excluded from FFP, but which season is anyone's guess. Anyway basing my figures on the £20m estimate seen in a few places, I am struggling without yet looking in depth to see how they aren't falling foul- presumably the EFL should have had these numbers back in summer 2021 as we've seen with Birmingham and Reading eg the EFL get the updated Projections not long after the Reporting Period ends. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 30, 2022 Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: The best estimate I've seen is £20m but yeah it's not stated or separately listed is it, agreed. It is as a rule included within the total wage bill while being excluded from FFP, but which season is anyone's guess. Anyway basing my figures on the £20m estimate seen in a few places, I am struggling without yet looking in depth to see how they aren't falling foul- presumably the EFL should have had these numbers back in summer 2021 as we've seen with Birmingham and Reading eg the EFL get the updated Projections not long after the Reporting Period ends. Yes, I was a bit shocked when I plugged their numbers into my simple xls (shared with you via DM) Here it is for benefit of others: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Yes, I was a bit shocked when I plugged their numbers into my simple xls (shared with you via DM) Here it is for benefit of others: Great work. £63m Covid Allowance?? Wow- how even! Maybe I missed something here having only had a quick skim but wow- how the hell do they justify that! That's massively divergent with EFL limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 30, 2022 Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Great work. £63m Covid Allowance?? Wow- how even! Maybe I missed something here having only had a quick skim but wow- how the hell do they justify that! That's massively divergent with EFL limits. No, I highlighted in blue to show I’d used that field to cover the stadium rebuild costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: No, I highlighted in blue to show I’d used that field to cover the stadium rebuild costs. Oh I think I see what you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 Good thread by CottageAnalytica- mentioned their FFP analysis before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Couple of others. Peterborough United £1,087,988 loss in 2020/21 League One...such low losses that there is no point even delving further! Rotherham United Due this week but they're never major spenders- have though extended to end of June 2022, took advantage of the Covid request and allow bit. I doubt there will be any FFP issues at all though. Huddersfield's are also in, should be viewable by tomorrow or Friday. Birmingham and Blackburn are also due tomorrow or a bit after, but we have a fair idea about theirs for last season. Sheffield United and Watford also due but I can't foresee FFP issues just yet there... Given it can take a few days to process the prize for latest accounts must go to Derby!! If by this time next week nothing, it's 3 years overdue!? Yes Covid and admin but officially the last time they submitted accounts into the public domain was April 2019 for the period to the end of June 2018! Well not entirely 3 years as they took the Covid extension but certainly 3 years worth of accounts. Same I assume goes for the parent, the parent above that parent and subsidiaries of said parent. Edited March 30, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Fair play, Huddersfield appear to have made a £2.5m profit. They have actually used Parachute Payments as intended by slashing outgoings- and taking some pain on the pitch in restructuring, see their 2019/20 and to some extent 2020/21 seasons. A mere £1,424,532 of remaining Book Value by 30th June 2021 left to amortise... Of course in part they were probably forced into this as Parachute Payments helped to repay Dean Hoyle's loans, and were allocated in this respect. Wage bill last season was down to a mere £24.63m! It's so easy with Parachute Payments especially with good headroom to try and buy a quick way back but that is some impressive restructuring. However Huddersfield have never struck me in the main as the kind of club who will splash the cash or roll the dice really, 2nd season in PL aside. Edited March 31, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 West Brom Bit of nifty accounting...they were due the end of April but. This is applicable across West Bromwich Albion FC, West Brom Holdings and West Brom Group, unsure which is the consolidator but doesn't really matter. Last year to take Covid into account, they extended to the end of July- this meant the 2020/21 accounts were due end of April 2022. However, today it has come through to CH that they have put it back to end of June- that means accounts should be due today or soon after... ...Of course though, the three card trick- they have seemingly taken advantage of Covid or something in order to not have to submit to CH until end of June 2022! EFL should still get them in real time ie by start or end of March but beyond that...wonder if we'll see any movement on Stoke's Reporting/Reference period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 I struggle to see WBA as likely to breach FFP so it feels a bit unusual that they see the need for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 31, 2022 Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Fair play, Huddersfield appear to have made a £2.5m profit. They have actually used Parachute Payments as intended by slashing outgoings- and taking some pain on the pitch in restructuring, see their 2019/20 and to some extent 2020/21 seasons. A mere £1,424,532 of remaining Book Value by 30th June 2021 left to amortise... Of course in part they were probably forced into this as Parachute Payments helped to repay Dean Hoyle's loans, and were allocated in this respect. Wage bill last season was down to a mere £24.63m! It's so easy with Parachute Payments especially with good headroom to try and buy a quick way back but that is some impressive restructuring. However Huddersfield have never struck me in the main as the kind of club who will splash the cash or roll the dice really, 2nd season in PL aside. That £60m of disposals must’ve included some “late” deals from season before, but it’s still good, prudent cost control…albeit nicely supported by PPs! They still get £15.5m this season too. Not only a year ahead of us in managerial / rebuild terms, they are probably further than that based on the cost cutting job Danny Cowley started. We are playing catch up, and will be interesting to see where we are next summer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 40 minutes ago, Davefevs said: That £60m of disposals must’ve included some “late” deals from season before, but it’s still good, prudent cost control…albeit nicely supported by PPs! They still get £15.5m this season too. Not only a year ahead of us in managerial / rebuild terms, they are probably further than that based on the cost cutting job Danny Cowley started. We are playing catch up, and will be interesting to see where we are next summer. Think they did quite a lot of Impairment in 2018/19 and 2019/20 from memory- again helped by the Parachute Payments but this wasn't Impairment to try and exclude it unlike some clubs but simply accelerating the amortisation- and enabling the ability to offload more quickly- they didn't try and replace probably players signed for big fees and wages with similar like for like- possibly the best example of using it correctly I've seen. Agree on the rest too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) Not seen them at CH yet but Sheffield United and Blades Leisure Limited have released their accounts for 2020/21- think the parent is the latter. PL of course but £10m profit- it can be done even in Covid times! Plus cut wage bill by £21m last season! No FFP concerns for a while I reckon but then didn't really expect them to be one of those at big risk any time soon. https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.sheffieldunited.co.uk/369b3330-b0db-11ec-b660-cb43acf0918d.pdf Compared to Fulham that is a stunning difference- both were in the PL last season. Edited March 31, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted March 31, 2022 Report Share Posted March 31, 2022 Hello, Can you give a fresh summary of which clubs, as well as us, are in danger of falling foul of FFP next season please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Watford accounts are out. Not really bothered about the balance sheet etc at this juncture, but as expected, don't seem to be any FFP issues- Upper Loss Tariff to 2020/21 would have been £88.5m. https://www.watfordfc.com/storage/74528/2021-Financial-Report.pdf £55.719m Profit on disposal of Player Registrations. No particular items that jump out although again, another club who somehow took Business Interruption Insurance- some did clearly, most have not. Point is they seem to be have been well below the possibility of breaking FFP limits. In theory did they need to sell Pereyra and Deulofeu- probably not! Certainly not both but Udinese probably got 1 maybe 2 players they couldn't realistically have hope to got with that system. The other side of the coin, did those two want to take a step down into the Championship? Blackburn's have also arrived at CH- we already have a fair idea due to Venkys London Limited but these may give the whole picture...probably the next day or two they'll be available. Edited April 1, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, old_eastender said: Hello, Can you give a fresh summary of which clubs, as well as us, are in danger of falling foul of FFP next season please. It's hard to say as some clubs are not exactly rushing to produce their accounts but based on what we know for sure...aside from us. Potential issues if not promoted Bournemouth Fulham Bit of a perfect storm of Parachutes ending and loss limits falling Cardiff Stoke Potential but unknown Birmingham- Not now but maybe to 2023/24...but could Bellingham sell on save the day? No issues to 2021, 2022 or maybe even 2023 I'd say. Middlesbrough- Cannot see Gibson messing up but their profit drops off after this season, to be replaced by a cumulative loss- maybe they sell Spence and retrench a bit if they stay down. Cup run will help. Nottingham Forest- Usually close to the wire but often a big sale takes them over the line...they have as is their right made some quite big claims in Covid losses, £28m in 3 years I believe but the trouble there is that the EFL voted on limits clash with that- they won't be the only ones, I'm sure we have lost more than £10m ie £5m, £5m and £2.5m in the last 3 years respectively. Plus the new starting point to 2022 is the 2018/19 bigger loss than 2017/18 smallish loss- could be close? Cup run will help. Reading- much will hinge on how compliant they are, if the EFL business plan is adhered to then no new issues, if not then trouble ahead. If they have to clear deals with the EFL then it should sort itself out. Sheffield Wednesday- Ultimately probably not but there is ambiguity in this EFL rule...does this rule mean up to the period ending 2020/21 or the 3rd year after the period ending 2020/21- if it's the former, no issues at all, because the stadium sale was rolled forward, if it's the latter and there is still a £39m limit to 2022/23 that headroom is getting squeezed as the stadium sale profit drops off after this season! Someone I know actually emailed the EFL about this general point in 2021 but they told them it was a confidential matter! Again up to and including the period ending 2020/21 ie the year of relegation or the period commencing 2020/21 2 years later! Wildcards- but probably ultimately aok Blackburn- They do spend more than they earn but have also shown signs of retrenchment- sold Armstrong and got a Training Ground sale and leaseback just in time although how the structure with Venkys London Limited vs the club fits I don't know...the EFL wording of the rule I wonder about, inclusion in Blackburn accounts to June 2021 is to be expected but it didn't appear in Venkys London to March 31st 2021. Promotion would resolve any q'- not exactly a major profit either from what I can gather, impact halved due to Covid rollup. I dunno- Preston? I'd say not ultimately tbh but their expenditure and losses have increased in recent times so maybe if it kept going that way...? Again I'd say not. QPR- Not to this season but to 2023/24 if they keep gambling- but they go through spend and save a bit plus of course promotion would resolve any q's. Swansea- Generally seem to be run okay but that cliff edge of Parachutes to Championship is major. Think they will have adjusted accordingly. West Brom- Never really considered them but their Upper Loss Limit to this and next year is £55.5m, think they'll be fine but if they don't go up this year there is a lot of pressure to bounce back in 2022/23 as it would then go from Year 2 to Zero! Loss limit as well from £55.5m to £39m! Hope this helps...lot of devil in the detail, not least as a range have not yet released their financials. Jon Lansdown in Feb reportedly said 5-7 other clubs IIRC. Edited April 1, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) Blackburn released accounts. No FFP issues although a question mark- from me only- about whether the Fixed Asset sale should be included given that rule about not only the season but the Reporting Period covering that season. This was Training Ground and some properties- seems alright tbh value and profit wise, £16m for the former IIRC, or £17m and £13m for the latter. Armstrong sold this season and wage bill seemed to be around £25m so hardly major culprits if at all but... It appears in the club accounts which run from July 1st-June 30th but not in Venkys London Limited- which runs April 31st-March 31st. Not should it as the sale date was June 2021 but given that VLL sits above the club I don't see why there isn't an FFP question mark- if it appears in the season or Reporting/Reference Period covering 2021/22 then it has to be adjusted out. Edited April 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 Had a slightly closer look, lost £6.6m last season but without the sale of the Training Ground and some associated Properties it'd have been £13m higher. Unsure they'd have breached in any event, Category 1 Academy, Covid allowance etc but it gave them £6.5m in headroom (2019/20 and 2020/21 aggregated and halved etc). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted April 4, 2022 Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Had a slightly closer look, lost £6.6m last season but without the sale of the Training Ground and some associated Properties it'd have been £13m higher. Unsure they'd have breached in any event, Category 1 Academy, Covid allowance etc but it gave them £6.5m in headroom (2019/20 and 2020/21 aggregated and halved etc). They will have no FFP issues based on football club accounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted April 4, 2022 Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) Would need a colossal loss this season to be in FFP danger. I took the £13m off of the covid allowances to save re-hashing the xls. Edited April 4, 2022 by Davefevs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Would need a colossal loss this season to be in FFP danger. I took the £13m off of the covid allowances to save re-hashing the xls. Yep, agreed. Think they'd even be narrowly within even without the training ground sale but a while since I've looked in depth...Armstrong being sold should keep them well clear, VLL vs club though...hmm, I wonder which should take precedence for FFP in the context of the training ground profit- but that if it becomes an issue is one that would probably take a while to emerge. Edited April 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) 2+2=5 but Cardiff have been mentioned for a year or 2. Think aok to this year but if losses such as these are in the right ballpark then to 2023 or maybe 2024 maybe a different issue. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/04/04/investors-circle-cardiff-city-vincent-tan-ready-sell-soon-club/ Cash losses vs Accounting losses are of course quite different but this year is their first since 2012/13 with neither Parachute Payments or PL cash...2nd Year to Championship cash is quite the crunch! Quote Formal offers have yet to be tabled, but the Welsh club are among several Championship sides attracting attention given their perceived availability amid financial pressures. Tan could be tempted by a deal, insiders believe, due to eye-watering losses at well in excess of £2million a month in the aftermath of Covid. Quote Cost-cutting remains the main priority for a board reeling from a 4-0 derby loss to Swansea over the weekend. A major overhaul in playing staff is expected this summer, with only Joe Ralls and potentially injured captain Sean Morison earmarked for new deals on potentially lower wages. I mean the Projected FFP numbers and the gap between Parachutes v Solidarity- combined with Upper Loss Tariff to 2021 and 2022 being £55.5m turning to £39m next season- these absolutely indicate this to be possible. I'd say another year at least of cost-cutting, maybe 2 years. About time they had to adjust tbh! Edited April 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 That said, Cardiff fans seem to wonder about the loss limit- on one of the forums anyway, wonder if they have factored in the plunge from Parachute to Solidarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) https://cottageanalytica.com/2022/04/04/ffc-2020-21-ffp-assessment/ Interesting article- not least the amount being claimed by Fulham or at least this educated/informed guess. They would like to claim based on this £22.5m in lost revenue over the 2 years- and of course the £21m Impairment written off as an FFP cost. Think that the argument is along the lines of the fact they were a PL club last season so that should be applicable to 2020/21 and the EFL limit to 2019/20...more troubling is the Player Impairment bit, the EFL a) Have set prescribed limits for FFP in general and b) Got via the Derby case grounds to enforce a straight line policy...surely all Covid claimed Impairment should be reallocated straight line? Edited April 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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