Good team to very average team....

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Lee Johnson - he is what he is, and he will only turn us in to what we are - an average Championship team.  Fair play to him for bringing stability to this club, but he will not turn us into a top 6 club

Ok, granted....he is working with one hand tied behind his back as we don't have the budget some of these other clubs have, but we have to be honest and admit....as Neil Warnock once said...."He talks a good game".  Which he does.  He articulates himself brilliantly, he comes across brilliantly....but that's about it

Yesterdays team selection, starting Semenyo was ridiculous.  We had a rookie in goal and we should have started an experienced outfield 10 to give him as much protection as possible.  I said it before the game started, and I cant believe he did it.  I swear at times LJ believes in his own hype, and I honestly believed he thought he was pulling off some kind of tactical master stroke yesterday.....when in reality, it was an unnecessary gamble

There are so many teams not firing on all cylinders in this league....however some clubs are starting to seriously pick up.  I said it on here at the start of the season I expect us to finish below where we finished last year, and I stand by it

Andy - depends what you mean by average.  If 7th with a game in hand over 6th is average, then fine.  I’ve been pretty critical of his reign, but he’s doing pretty well at the mo’ imho.  The way you’ve phrased it and I’ve interpreted it, is that he is moving us backwards towards average from a higher starting point.  If I’ve misinterpreted that then hands up.  In reality he’s progressing us in a number of ways....slowly, but surely.  

The problem is whether there is a ceiling to that improvement.  Maybe flirting with play-offs is as far as he can take us.  If so, then SL has a big decision to make, not dissimilar to Southampton with Adkins.

I don’t see this season as wasted if we don’t make the play-offs, but I expect us to be in the mix (from our current position) a lot longer this season.  I don’t expect a fall-away....that would make me question LJ.  If we are pipped by a team with a strong run, there ain’t a lot we can do about it, I'd kinda accept that.

Assuming we miss out, then this summer is gonna be more “building”....really need to move on some players who can’t make a difference at this level.

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Errr - we also played Norwich and Leeds along the way

For me the players look knackered. Our midfield in particular has been bossed last few games.

Far to feeble to just blame LJ. There are many factors

Knackered? These are professional sportsmen, not blokes playing for their local pub team. Some of these players have been only average even during the fifteen match unbeaten run. 

Yesterday most if the team were poor to average, one was thrown to the Leeds lions on his first start for City. And three or four were adequate.

Have you ever considered that our midfield was second best again yesterday, because that is their best?

Allowed plenty of space we look like world beaters but as soon as the other side gets stuck in, harries us continually, and runs at us with pace, most of us know what the result will be.

[Bristol Oil Services]

It might be that the players we have at present are at the uppermost of their potential getting to sixth and probably finishing somewhere in the region of 7th - 9th.

Disappointing but no shame in this.

SL has set the bar - top six - and this might just be a bit beyond some of the current squad. Between the ears, first and foremost. 

[shelts]

3 hours ago, Top Robin said:

in 4 games.....and I blame the manager. 

1 point from 12 doesn't lie and it just proves what most of us know.....Lee is unable to maintain consistentsy over a season. 

Consistence was pretty good when we where unbeaten in how many ?

Personlly I don’t think where good enough for play offs and are still a little lightweight in the depth of our squad . 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It might be that the players we have at present are at the uppermost of their potential getting to sixth and probably finishing somewhere in the region of 7th - 9th.

Disappointing but no shame in this.

SL has set the bar - top six - and this might just be a bit beyond some of the current squad. Between the ears, first and foremost. 

Think there’s a lot of truth in that.  Think it’s why I hedged my bets with a rather large spread of 6th to 16th at the start of the season.  There isn’t much between us and Derby and Swansea, Stoke, Sheff Wed in reality.  We made a bit of hay during our good run, that got us in contention.  The challenge is now to keep those levels for 11 more games.  If 74 points is enough, 3 points on Tuesday (no guarantee) would mean 17 from 10.

[Grey Fox]

4 hours ago, Top Robin said:

in 4 games.....and I blame the manager. 

1 point from 12 doesn't lie and it just proves what most of us know.....Lee is unable to maintain consistentsy over a season. 

Last season showed progress, we were never in a relegation battle, as in the previous seasons since promotion, and proved we could compete in the Championship. We were however on occasions naieve, both players and LJ. This season we have improved, we have developed a sustainable style, know how to close out a game and at times played great football. We are howver, not yet the full ticket, yesterday Leeds were simply better than us.

This season i think we will make the play offs, but not go through, next year we go up

i dont think your the boy wonder

[1960maaan]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe that’s fatigue?

I don't know what the answer is, even if there is one , but fatigue shouldn't be one. They do so many checks , and monitor the players so much that fatigue should be the last thing that is the problem, unless he is playing players as there are no options, Pack possibly ?

 

[Top Robin]

1 hour ago, shelts said:

Consistence was pretty good when we where unbeaten in how many ?

Personlly I don’t think where good enough for play offs and are still a little lightweight in the depth of our squad . 

And about the same as what we lost in a row last season.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I don't know what the answer is, even if there is one , but fatigue shouldn't be one. They do so many checks , and monitor the players so much that fatigue should be the last thing that is the problem, unless he is playing players as there are no options, Pack possibly ?

 

Interestingly LJ mentioned Brownhill’s “numbers” were low ahead of Brum, but Josh said he was fine.

Being a bit cynical, if you let the player decide, it kinda negates having the data.

[shelts]

28 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

And about the same as what we lost in a row last season.

Good point . That was last year . Prefer to stay in the present . 

[1960maaan]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Interestingly LJ mentioned Brownhill’s “numbers” were low ahead of Brum, but Josh said he was fine.

Being a bit cynical, if you let the player decide, it kinda negates having the data.

Absolutely, makes the whole 'team' pointless. 

[glen humphries]

16 hours ago, dereks no1 said:

Definitely not got anything to do with playing 1st and 2nd in the table. Also the other two games have been against in form play-off hopefuls. What a negative way of reflecting on the past 4 matches. 

People forget that having LJ as manager comes with pros and cons. One of the cons is that he is still learning/is an inexperienced manager and yet has still guided us to 7th in the league (above teams with far bigger budgets such as Aston Villa, Nottingham Forest, Derby, Stoke) and in games against the top sides we have competed very well (Norwich home and away, Sheff United home, West Brom away and Derby home and away).

Sorry but lj is not inexperienced, I can’t have that.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, dereks no1 said:

Definitely not got anything to do with playing 1st and 2nd in the table. Also the other two games have been against in form play-off hopefuls. What a negative way of reflecting on the past 4 matches. 

People forget that having LJ as manager comes with pros and cons. One of the cons is that he is still learning/is an inexperienced manager and yet has still guided us to 7th in the league (above teams with far bigger budgets such as Aston Villa, Nottingham Forest, Derby, Stoke) and in games against the top sides we have competed very well (Norwich home and away, Sheff United home, West Brom away and Derby home and away).

1. I thought we were "play off hopefuls" as well and are most of our remaining games are against... play off hopefuls, games we need to win to be in the play offs.... at the end.
2. We will finish below at least 3 of those 4 "bigger budget" teams.
3. 1pt in 12 is just a statement of fact that many don't want to see.
4. Our remaining games will show just how far we have come this season and what our management have learned.
5. Undoubted re-building in the summer "again"only works if you keep most of the best you already have already, that wont happen as it didn't last year, a big hole will be made in our current squad which will need filling just to maintain the status quo.
6. Result; we will remain very average

[robin_unreliant]

16 hours ago, dereks no1 said:

People forget that having LJ as manager comes with pros and cons. One of the cons is that he is still learning/is an inexperienced manager and yet has still guided us to 7th in the league (above teams with far bigger budgets such as Aston Villa, Nottingham Forest, Derby, Stoke) .....

It is quite likely, given our current form and tough fixtures to come, that three of those clubs will finish above us.....

[Andy082005]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Andy - depends what you mean by average.  If 7th with a game in hand over 6th is average, then fine.  I’ve been pretty critical of his reign, but he’s doing pretty well at the mo’ imho.  The way you’ve phrased it and I’ve interpreted it, is that he is moving us backwards towards average from a higher starting point.  If I’ve misinterpreted that then hands up.  In reality he’s progressing us in a number of ways....slowly, but surely.  

The problem is whether there is a ceiling to that improvement.  Maybe flirting with play-offs is as far as he can take us.  If so, then SL has a big decision to make, not dissimilar to Southampton with Adkins.

I don’t see this season as wasted if we don’t make the play-offs, but I expect us to be in the mix (from our current position) a lot longer this season.  I don’t expect a fall-away....that would make me question LJ.  If we are pipped by a team with a strong run, there ain’t a lot we can do about it, I'd kinda accept that.

Assuming we miss out, then this summer is gonna be more “building”....really need to move on some players who can’t make a difference at this level.

No I don't believe he is or has moved us backwards. And I get we are 7th merit...however I don't believe we will finish in the top 10. 

This season is heading towards the same conclusion as last year. We are running out of steam and ideas, and our manager is tinkering and coming out with some bizarre post match comments. For me, when the pressure and expectations are there....he just cannot handle it . When we are underdogs we do alright...but as soon as there is a bit of real pressure to perform....we fail falter. I just don't see a tough, winners mentality in him  

I really do believe we are in a situation like Southampton were with Adkins. I don't believe LJ has it in him to take us to the next level, but time will tell I guess 

 

[Ivorguy]

1 hour ago, Bullbag said:

What a pathetic thread.

Some have very short memories.

Does anyone actually expect City to out run clubs such as Leeds, Sheff Utd, WBA or Boro etc.

The money/wages these clubs spend is way more than us.

Get a grip Ffs.

I think you will find that many of the comments are aimed at desire and fitness.  Neither are related to wages.

The other set of comments relate to our coaches being more tactically aware and instilling a never die mentality. Think Terry Cooper or even Cotts.

[Spike]

I don't blame LJ and I'm pretty critical of him, he's done well with this squad and I can't see us doing any better under the current financial model.

I do think the team are missing that gritty midfielder, I also think we're far too light in the striker department but the issue is we need to find both of these on a budget because we're obviously not going to spend big. If the deal for Palmer, Kalas and DaSilva for £10m is true then we should be spending that in a heartbeat and doing everything in our power to secure it. On the other hand, there are now rumours that Celtic and Rangers want Kalas and that Chelsea are willing to accept £5m for him which in my opinion is a steal and I'm sure if he wants to win something then Celtic is pretty much a dead cert.

All in all, we're not on Leeds level, nor Norwich or Sheffield United and this begs the question of even if we were able to stay in contention for a playoff spot how do we intend to beat any of these teams? Leeds showed us that they have the tactical ability and quality to frustrate us at our own ground, Norwich are way beyond us and Sheffield United have firepower in abundance and will probably beat us too.

This whole blame game doesn't work, we've been through many managers and they all have that same stumbling block, money. If we're interested in the same player as any of the current top 6 clubs the chances are we're losing out to them if it comes down to finances, this means LJ and co need to find a lot of players in a short time who are of the same level in order to create a squad that can compete with them and that's an insane ask of anyone.
There is also the support factor. It just goes to show the difference a club can have when you look at Solskjaer, he was awful at Cardiff where he had little to no support, then he gets the United job and is surrounded by amazing staff and he doesn't even need to buy players to turn around the club because the staff work well with the players. If LJ was to be sacked tomorrow I do wonder if this squad would perform even half as well as they are now his squad, his players and they were bought to play his football, sacking him prior to the summer would just leave us looking for a new manager on a budget with a squad built for another manager and we'd be in a far harder situation.

Until the day comes where we overperform and make it into the Premiership we're always going to have to do things on a budget and this means having a manager who works within the restrictions he has, right now I can't think of a single manager who would be willing to come to this club and could do a better job, as much as I hate to admit it. 

[Big C]

The point is we haven't gone from a good team to a very average team. We've gone from an average team who won a few games to an average team that lost a few games. That's what we are in this league an average team who should be looking up rather and done with an outside chance of challenging for the play offs and that's is exactly what we are doing!

[SR1]

2 hours ago, Bullbag said:

What a pathetic thread.

Some have very short memories.

Does anyone actually expect City to out run clubs such as Leeds, Sheff Utd, WBA or Boro etc.

The money/wages these clubs spend is way more than us.

Get a grip Ffs.

Granted this was last season, which is all we can work on until the figures are released this month, but City paid out more in wages than Leeds last season.

I don't know about this season but our (Leeds) nett spend hasn't been massive but inevitably wages will have risen. 

[SR1]

[SR1]

[Grey Fox]

6 hours ago, billywedlock said:

How have we progressed this year ? We had 3 more points last year after 35 games. That we are not in a relegation battle and can still get in the playoffs is great for a club like ours, but I cannot see any progress. Maybe the last 11 games will define our season compared to last year, as we went on a terrible run at the end of last season. 

More consistent in terms of performance, playing games out, defensive record, deeper squad. Last year was , in terms of results all about the first half of the season, this year is about the whole . Next year, keep the current squad and add a striker, we go up 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

I think you will find that many of the comments are aimed at desire and fitness.  Neither are related to wages.

The other set of comments relate to our coaches being more tactically aware and instilling a never die mentality. Think Terry Cooper or even Cotts.

You don’t go on double digit unbeaten runs in any league let alone the dog eat dog world that is the Championship if you don’t have “desire” or are lacking fitness. That is a ridiculous accusation to label at the players imo. Do we lack quality at times? Yes we do hence the inconsistency. Are our tactics and team selection questionable at times? I’d give you that as well but to question the desire is bang out of order.

Cotts “never say die” mentality as you put it worked wonders for us at Championship level..........didn’t it?

[Mtimmy11]

23 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

‘Inexperienced’??!!! He has been a manager for well over 300 games now....that is not ‘inexperienced’...

He has been a manager for 7/8 seasons .how long have you got to became an experienced manager.

[Ivorguy]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

You don’t go on double digit unbeaten runs in any league let alone the dog eat dog world that is the Championship if you don’t have “desire” or are lacking fitness. That is a ridiculous accusation to label at the players imo. Do we lack quality at times? Yes we do hence the inconsistency. Are our tactics and team selection questionable at times? I’d give you that as well but to question the desire is bang out of order.

Cotts “never say die” mentality as you put it worked wonders for us at Championship level..........didn’t it?

I think we have to agree to differ, but as regards Cotts in The Championship I feel there was a falling out with SL on aims.  Personally I think Cotts achieved promotion a season too soon for SL.  Cotts then became truculent, refusing for example to name a full bench. His end was nigh whatever was happening on the pitch.  In short Cotts was his own man and paid the penalty

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Mtimmy11 said:

He has been a manager for 7/8 seasons .how long have you got to became an experienced manager.

Well put it another way, LJ has managed more games than Alex Neil and Ole Gunnar Solskjær, nearly as many as Sean Dyche and more games in this country than Roy Hodgson...I think 7/8 seasons makes him ‘experienced’.....

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well put it another way, LJ has managed more games than Alex Neil and Ole Gunnar Solskjær, nearly as many as Sean Dyche and more games in this country than Roy Hodgson...I think 7/8 seasons makes him ‘experienced’.....

Yep, he’s a young manager, but not inexperienced anymore.  A lot of managers at this level, don’t see that many games in their career.

[TonyTonyTony]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, he’s a young manager, but not inexperienced anymore.  A lot of managers at this level, don’t see that many games in their career.

He is one of the longest serving managers in the Champ as well, so inexperience is not a valid argument

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, he’s a young manager, but not inexperienced anymore.  A lot of managers at this level, don’t see that many games in their career.

Spot on.....he’s also managed more games than Nuno Espírito Santo, David Wagner and Marco Silva ..... the list goes on and the ‘inexperienced’ tag becomes more irrelevant...

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

We had similar wage bill to Leeds £20M  (though their manager is certainly on more than LJ)  and Sheffield United 13.5 M for 17/18 

WBA and Boro on another planet of course with parachute payments as are Villa. Norwich. is complex as last year they still had parachute payments, this season they had to balance the books with sales, but not yet clear what their wage bill level will be . As a non parachute payment club we compete well enough, it is just that those payments are huge, so distort the situation badly. Though this season a few clubs in the mix are in a similar situation to ourselves. We do pretty well considering our available resources. 

We are kinda there with your Preston’s and your Brentfords, hoping to gatecrash the big boys party.  Some of the big-boys (Stoke) can’t handle their drink and are spewing up in the back garden, but it hard for us to get through the front door.