Interesting article in The Guardian written by Nick Glynn, a retired senior police officer

[phantom]

It’s great. Your football team scores, first minute, last minute, last minute of injury time, any time. There are 30 seconds of ecstasy, exuberance, jumping around, hugging people you would never hug anywhere else. It is accompanied by smiles, laughter, singing. For 99.99% of football fans, violence could not be further from their minds. Goals are rare in football – I am a lifelong Birmingham City fan, I know this. This is not rugby, or cricket, or tennis, where players score with dreary repetition. This is football, where you can watch a brilliant 90-minute game where there isn’t a single goal.

I remember shaking the hand of a Millwall fan when they beat Leicester away with an 87th-minute goal and saying to him “It’s the best feeling in the world”. He was shocked, expecting me as the police bronze commander for the match to have some sort of action taken against him. Decades earlier I remember rescuing one of my colleagues from the Coventry pen in the Spion Kop at Leicester, as he tried to stop their fans singing George and John’s Sky Blue Army, like singing was some sort of dangerous pastime.

There has been an outcry about the recent treatment of Manchester City fans (and Sergio Agüero) at Bournemouth last weekend – after Raheem Sterling scored a 97th-minute winner. To be clear, pitch invasions are wrong, but there is a difference between a pitch invasion and joyful celebrations momentarily spilling over the white line and on to the turf – and that is where a bit of common sense is needed. 

It is always interesting to watch the reaction of stewards and police officers when a goal is scored. I see fear, anger, aggression, sometimes panic. For many, it seems the overriding desire is to stop a perfectly normal and natural human reaction to a rare event, rather than taking a few steps back, a few deep breaths, remaining calm, and observing and giving half a minute for things to calm down.

And the crowd almost always will calm down, especially where the situation isn’t aggravated by stewards and police officers diving in and unnecessarily intervening. When players go to their own fans to celebrate, don’t worry – there’s nothing to worry about. The fans will be safely back in their seats in a minute, and the players will be getting on with the game.

The reaction of stewards and police officers to goal celebrations is symptomatic of a wider problem with the rules and regulations that govern football fans, and the way that authorities treat them as a group. Many regulations apply only to football fans, and please, don’t try to claim we all deserve it. We don’t.

The Football (Offences) Act 1991 was written in the flawed and biased times after the Hillsborough disaster, when the public were conned by a tabloid newspaper’s lying headlines and the perception supported by politicians of the time that all football fans were “scum”, capable of urinating on dying fans.

Those lies are perpetuated in the Football (Offences) Act and the underlying sentiment of dislike and suspicion of football fans is preserved in its use by the police and stewards across the country. We’re all hooligans, deep down, goes the thinking.

Some of the laws that govern football are ridiculous. The rules on pitch encroachment are too broad. We want to prevent pitch invasions, not criminalise and throttle someone who steps over a line by a few centimetres while celebrating.

Throwing coins can blind someone or cause other serious injury. If the individuals who throw coins can be identified, I welcome the full force of the law being used. Technically, within the “missile throwing” provisions, throwing the match ball back on to the pitch can be a criminal offence. So can throwing the ball to the kid who desperately wants to be the one who throws the ball back on to the pitch. Simply drinking alcohol in sight of the pitch is a criminal offence. The rules are outdated and ridiculous.

Now that the Hillsborough victims and their families are finally on their way to seeing real justice, and trials of safe standing are finally on the cards – at last – a review of the Football (Offences) Act and other relevant rules and regulations that cover football is long overdue. Inconsistencies in how football is policed and stewarded cannot continue. It is time for an independent, national review.

As for headlocks – as suffered by the fan on the pitch at Bournemouth last weekend, who Agüero seemed so keen to help – there is no need for a review or new laws. Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 makes it clear that force used by the police, and anyone else, including football stewards, must be reasonable in the circumstances. Force has to be proportionate to the threat being dealt with.

Headlocks are not outlawed (any use of force could be reasonable in the right circumstances), but the only circumstances that could justify use of a headlock are where the violence or risk being averted is so serious that causing death or really serious injury to the “assailant” would be justified.

Make no mistake, headlocks can kill. Therefore justification for their use is rare. A simple reminder of that fact to police officers and football stewards might be enough to avert an easily avoided tragedy.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I remember that article from a while ago. 

Very much agree with the sentiment though- interesting to see that there was trouble at Bournemouth again, as there was in this article- this example. Do they have a problem...SIA instead of club stewards or a mix of the 2 maybe? Definitely they have different skill sets and expectations and the former in a football context can cause more issues than they solve.

[Dave L]

Interesting stuff. I am generally supportive of stewards at football, who often have a thankless task, but I have often thought that the desperate attempt of a man in a high vis jacket to get between celebrating players and fans is a ridiculous over-reaction that is far more likely to cause trouble rather than reduce it. It certainly is time for a review of some of the regulations which govern the policing of football.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I remember that article from a while ago. 

Very much agree with the sentiment though- interesting to see that there was trouble at Bournemouth again, as there was in this article- this example. Do they have a problem...SIA instead of club stewards or a mix of the 2 maybe? Definitely they have different skill sets and expectations and the former in a football context can cause more issues than they solve.

Yes, me too, thought it rang a bell.

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Dave L said:

Interesting stuff. I am generally supportive of stewards at football, who often have a thankless task, but I have often thought that the desperate attempt of a man in a high vis jacket to get between celebrating players and fans is a ridiculous over-reaction that is far more likely to cause trouble rather than reduce it. It certainly is time for a review of some of the regulations which govern the policing of football.

The majority of club owners, footballing authorities and the police don't really and truly understand what it is to be a fan on the terraces. Neither do they particularly care. BCFC included imo.

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

Out of interest what are your views on this @JulieH? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw an article. Interesting graphic in it about cost of policing etc...

Now I have no idea how if it's different by region or similar as this is for West Midlands and I don't know if it is a standardised rate for forces across UK- but anyway I found it interesting.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2019/03/21/former-councillor-calls-for-football-matches-to-be-played-behind-closed-doors-if-clubs-refuse-to-foot-police-bill/

[CotswoldRed]

Nice little earner for (mainly) laid back easy work. 

And PCSOs are unpaid aren't they? Police Christmas dos must be among the best. 

[JulieH]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Nice little earner for (mainly) laid back easy work. 

And PCSOs are unpaid aren't they? Police Christmas dos must be among the best. 

Pcsos are not unpaid . 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Nice little earner for (mainly) laid back easy work. 

And PCSOs are unpaid aren't they? Police Christmas dos must be among the best. 

Always assumed it went to the force, sort of 'leasing' officers in a sense...obviously that could cover pay, holiday pay, NI etc but still quite pricey- especially considering the Swansea game e.g.

[JulieH]

My views are as such and are my views not the view of any constabulary, they are a mixture of my view as a serving officer with 30 years service 18 of which have been policing football:

1) there is a distinguishable difference between celebratory pitch incursions and those that are for other reasons , unfortunately the law does not distinguish between either and therefore that is why fans do get arrested for both. However in my experience in this force we will always look into the cause / any pushing from behind and cctv evidence is crucial in ascertaining this. 

2) that said when I get excited if a last minute winner is scored the last thing on my mind as a fan is to run on the pitch! I would say that accounts for 95% of the fan population. 

3) the discussion around policing numbers at football matches is very much in the press at the moment. We police games at the request of the clubs in our force area, we can legally charge  for police officers on the footprint , and for an amount of time on the day. I can state it is not a money making exercise 

 

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

20 hours ago, JulieH said:

My views are as such and are my views not the view of any constabulary, they are a mixture of my view as a serving officer with 30 years service 18 of which have been policing football:

1) there is a distinguishable difference between celebratory pitch incursions and those that are for other reasons , unfortunately the law does not distinguish between either and therefore that is why fans do get arrested for both. However in my experience in this force we will always look into the cause / any pushing from behind and cctv evidence is crucial in ascertaining this. 

2) that said when I get excited if a last minute winner is scored the last thing on my mind as a fan is to run on the pitch! I would say that accounts for 95% of the fan population. 

3) the discussion around policing numbers at football matches is very much in the press at the moment. We police games at the request of the clubs in our force area, we can legally charge  for police officers on the footprint , and for an amount of time on the day. I can state it is not a money making exercise 

 

Thank you @JulieH

[Monkeh]

On 20/03/2019 at 15:07, phantom said:

It’s great. Your football team scores, first minute, last minute, last minute of injury time, any time. There are 30 seconds of ecstasy, exuberance, jumping around, hugging people you would never hug anywhere else. It is accompanied by smiles, laughter, singing. For 99.99% of football fans, violence could not be further from their minds. Goals are rare in football – I am a lifelong Birmingham City fan, I know this. This is not rugby, or cricket, or tennis, where players score with dreary repetition. This is football, where you can watch a brilliant 90-minute game where there isn’t a single goal.

I remember shaking the hand of a Millwall fan when they beat Leicester away with an 87th-minute goal and saying to him “It’s the best feeling in the world”. He was shocked, expecting me as the police bronze commander for the match to have some sort of action taken against him. Decades earlier I remember rescuing one of my colleagues from the Coventry pen in the Spion Kop at Leicester, as he tried to stop their fans singing George and John’s Sky Blue Army, like singing was some sort of dangerous pastime.

There has been an outcry about the recent treatment of Manchester City fans (and Sergio Agüero) at Bournemouth last weekend – after Raheem Sterling scored a 97th-minute winner. To be clear, pitch invasions are wrong, but there is a difference between a pitch invasion and joyful celebrations momentarily spilling over the white line and on to the turf – and that is where a bit of common sense is needed. 

It is always interesting to watch the reaction of stewards and police officers when a goal is scored. I see fear, anger, aggression, sometimes panic. For many, it seems the overriding desire is to stop a perfectly normal and natural human reaction to a rare event, rather than taking a few steps back, a few deep breaths, remaining calm, and observing and giving half a minute for things to calm down.

And the crowd almost always will calm down, especially where the situation isn’t aggravated by stewards and police officers diving in and unnecessarily intervening. When players go to their own fans to celebrate, don’t worry – there’s nothing to worry about. The fans will be safely back in their seats in a minute, and the players will be getting on with the game.

The reaction of stewards and police officers to goal celebrations is symptomatic of a wider problem with the rules and regulations that govern football fans, and the way that authorities treat them as a group. Many regulations apply only to football fans, and please, don’t try to claim we all deserve it. We don’t.

The Football (Offences) Act 1991 was written in the flawed and biased times after the Hillsborough disaster, when the public were conned by a tabloid newspaper’s lying headlines and the perception supported by politicians of the time that all football fans were “scum”, capable of urinating on dying fans.

Those lies are perpetuated in the Football (Offences) Act and the underlying sentiment of dislike and suspicion of football fans is preserved in its use by the police and stewards across the country. We’re all hooligans, deep down, goes the thinking.

Some of the laws that govern football are ridiculous. The rules on pitch encroachment are too broad. We want to prevent pitch invasions, not criminalise and throttle someone who steps over a line by a few centimetres while celebrating.

Throwing coins can blind someone or cause other serious injury. If the individuals who throw coins can be identified, I welcome the full force of the law being used. Technically, within the “missile throwing” provisions, throwing the match ball back on to the pitch can be a criminal offence. So can throwing the ball to the kid who desperately wants to be the one who throws the ball back on to the pitch. Simply drinking alcohol in sight of the pitch is a criminal offence. The rules are outdated and ridiculous.

Now that the Hillsborough victims and their families are finally on their way to seeing real justice, and trials of safe standing are finally on the cards – at last – a review of the Football (Offences) Act and other relevant rules and regulations that cover football is long overdue. Inconsistencies in how football is policed and stewarded cannot continue. It is time for an independent, national review.

As for headlocks – as suffered by the fan on the pitch at Bournemouth last weekend, who Agüero seemed so keen to help – there is no need for a review or new laws. Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 makes it clear that force used by the police, and anyone else, including football stewards, must be reasonable in the circumstances. Force has to be proportionate to the threat being dealt with.

Headlocks are not outlawed (any use of force could be reasonable in the right circumstances), but the only circumstances that could justify use of a headlock are where the violence or risk being averted is so serious that causing death or really serious injury to the “assailant” would be justified.

Make no mistake, headlocks can kill. Therefore justification for their use is rare. A simple reminder of that fact to police officers and football stewards might be enough to avert an easily avoided tragedy.

good article by a good police officer,

sadly the vast minority will always spoil it for the majority and its the majority who get painted in the bad light,

that doesn't just apply to fans it applies to stewards, police religions and other things all walks of life,

Most people forget the good and only focus on the bad,

[Monkeh]

23 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Nice little earner for (mainly) laid back easy work. 

And PCSOs are unpaid aren't they? Police Christmas dos must be among the best. 

the officer doesn't get paid that, 

In my job, I'll charge a Engineer out at 97 quid an hour, the engineer will be on about 30 quid an hour, the rest is mark up,

same applies to that table

[CotswoldRed]

36 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

the officer doesn't get paid that, 

In my job, I'll charge a Engineer out at 97 quid an hour, the engineer will be on about 30 quid an hour, the rest is mark up,

same applies to that table

Does he teeth suck and not carry parts on his van?

[Flaxbourton Red]

On 21/03/2019 at 12:33, Mr Popodopolous said:

Saw an article. Interesting graphic in it about cost of policing etc...

Now I have no idea how if it's different by region or similar as this is for West Midlands and I don't know if it is a standardised rate for forces across UK- but anyway I found it interesting.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2019/03/21/former-councillor-calls-for-football-matches-to-be-played-behind-closed-doors-if-clubs-refuse-to-foot-police-bill/

This is why the police are so interested in "maintaining order" at football matches - whereas your gran that's just been burgled can go and whistle for any police attention. 

[22A]

I am so with the OP.

Walking along Portman Road I saw an Ipswich fan I know and we walked towards one another to shake hands. Two Policemen freaked and rushed to keep us apart. "Get back your own side of the road"!

Peterborough has a large Polish population. A few years ago the Speedway World Cup was staged here and was won by Poland. The riders went over to where their supporters were and those Stewards went mental as fans and players (in seemingly all sports) must be kept apart.

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Flaxbourton Red said:

This is why the police are so interested in "maintaining order" at football matches - whereas your gran that's just been burgled can go and whistle for any police attention. 

This a million times. 

The police pick the low fruit and care little for much else in my experience. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Flaxbourton Red said:

This is why the police are so interested in "maintaining order" at football matches - whereas your gran that's just been burgled can go and whistle for any police attention. 

To be clear, pretty sure the individual officer won't get that but it goes to the force. Then it'd get redistributed between officer and force...smacks of something though.

I get the economics of it, especially in this era of public spending and the reasons why...but it just 'feels' wrong. Or Ott minimum. A private  protection racket some may say.