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PFree

Honesty time

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I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

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If we go up, I would happily take not going crazy in the transfer market and suffering relegation as it would put us in a much stronger position in terms of building a team that can compete in the Prem.  Don't underestimate the power of the parachute payments when you have someone running the show who made his money in Financial Management.

So yes....I would happily accept promotion this year.

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8 minutes ago, PFree said:

I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them

Must be a long walk to the games if their shoes are getting wrecked…
 

 

8 minutes ago, PFree said:

If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

Yes, I think he would, too. Wouldn't want to do a Fulham and bring too many players in. 

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Just need to check Burnley to see what is more than possible with the right management. Promoted, relegated with money, strengthened, promoted, consolidated.

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

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2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

Agree with this. There tends to be lot of talk about being 'ready', 'over-achieving', 'deserving', 'not deserving' etc. Ultimately, if we did make it, we would be there on merit. And I hope every City supporter would want us to go up.

 

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3 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Just need to check Burnley to see what is more than possible with the right management. Promoted, relegated with money, strengthened, promoted, consolidated.

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

There also has to be an argument made for our record against Premier league teams over the past 18 months. 

I know that they were “one off” games and very different to the relentless rigours of a league campaign, but it must read something like, without looking it up.... P8 W5 D0 L3. And that includes 2 fixtures, home & away against the best team in the country.  

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There is never a “right” time to go up.

In 2008 people said we weren’t ready. But what happened after, a few years more in the Championship and then back to League One.

You have to take promotion whenever you can get it, because that opportunity might not come again for a very long time.

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1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

There also has to be an argument made for our record against Premier league teams over the past 18 months. 

I know that they were “one off” games and very different to the relentless rigours of a league campaign, but it must read something like, without looking it up.... P8 W5 D0 L3. And that includes 2 fixtures, home & away against the best team in the country.  

which if we extrapolated that win rate would give us 61 (60.8) points over the course of a PL season.

He's taking us to Europe, mind 😎

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17 minutes ago, Red7 said:

Must be a long walk to the games if their shoes are getting wrecked…

Well I thought it was funny.....

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I would take promotion in a heartbeat. Like others have said it's a great chance to get the club where it needs to be and sustainable in the future with prudent management.

I was lucky enough to see us in the old first division and believe me it was absolutely brilliant. I know there would be the inevitable beatings but what IF we competed and stayed there,what a lift for the club and the city in general and no longer referred to as a footballing backwater.

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I always knew we would be top half. And was confident of top 6.

I still think we'll sneak into 6th.

Do i think we'll get promoted? probably not. But we can beat anyone on our day, so if we make the play-offs, we've got nothing to lose.

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2 minutes ago, Riaz said:

I always knew we would be top half. And was confident of top 6.

I still think we'll sneak into 6th.

Do i think we'll get promoted? probably not. But we can beat anyone on our day, so if we make the play-offs, we've got nothing to lose.

Well, technically we have.

Two play off games for starters.

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But were expected to lose. Whoever we face.

Pressure will be on the opposition, whoever we play. We should enjoy that.

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The timing of winning promotion to the Premier League is a lot like the conundrum for newly married/partnered couples to decide when they can afford to have children.

The answer is very simple. It is never a good time and you'll never have enough money to do everything you want to!

So promotion, with maybe three or four signings that do not wreck the team spirit yet give us better quality in all positions, is the best way to go. If relegation follows, then we are not a basket case but one ready to go again.

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Promoted Championship clubs via the pray off final very often struggle to survive in the PL and if City get up via that route we would undoubtedly struggle. 

None of our managerial team have any experience of the PL.......very few of our current squad are of PL quality and even with the £120m would the likes of LJ/MA know what kind of players they’d want. Add to that ending the season later than everyone else makes getting in new signings even more difficult.

All That said - Burnley ( who I see as a similar size club to City ) did exactly that. Got relegated, bounced straight back up and now are fairly established as a PL club.

Dyche said that the initial experience of the PL was a huge maturity factor for the club, Dyche and the players and stood them in great stead. 

No reason that couldn’t happen to City.

 

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49 minutes ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

No club getting promoted to the PL is 'ready' unless they were relegated in the previous season or two and have retained some players from their time in the PL and spent the PP money wisely. You could argue though in those circumstances that they were relegated so were they players they may have retained, good enough in any case?

Of course we wont be 'ready' IF we go up this season and I would wager that we wont be ready next season or the next or the next!

You have to take your chance when it comes along as there are no guarantees about when you might get it again. Should we go up I don't believe we should do a Fulham or anything remotely like it yes, we should spend some  of our new found wealth but be realistic and realise we will probably come straight back down again. BUT with a load of cash that means we can compete and try again.

It may take two, maybe three attempts to get established but it can be done, the secret is to be very wise with the cash windfall and for the supporters to have patience.

BTW - I agree, I did not think we had a cat in hells chance of being in the top 6 in April and the players and coaches deserve immense credit for what they have achieved.

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Do I think we will be promoted this season?   No, I still think we will just miss out on the top 6.

Honesty for me is expecting the club to mount a serious top 2 challenge next season.  I feel we have done our period of consolidating and even building, now is the time to tell everybody at the club, that top 2 should be the aim.

If you want to achieve it, you have to aim for it relentlessly from the first whistle.  This is what we should recruit and develop for in the summer.

The clubs being relegated don't by any stretch of the imagination look like clubs that will threaten at the top 2 immediately.

NEXT SEASON COULD BE HUGE FOR CITY!

 

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37 minutes ago, devoncider said:

which if we extrapolated that win rate would give us 61 (60.8) points over the course of a PL season.

He's taking us to Europe, mind 😎

People laughed when he said that but once we get promoted this season and finish top 6 in the PL next I think he will be a year ahead of schedule..........

I think top 4 will be a push next season so I can't see us in the Champions League until the 21/22 season myself.........

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If we go up that would be amazing. If we don't then at least we look like proper contenders in this division, which should hopefully put us on the radar for better players in the summer to strengthen the squad. It seems like a win/win to me.

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4 minutes ago, MigratedRobin said:

If we go up that would be amazing. If we don't then at least we look like proper contenders in this division, which should hopefully put us on the radar for better players in the summer to strengthen the squad. It seems like a win/win to me.

True and it’s only been four years since we came up from the third division, with the stadium rebuild and all so it’s been a fantastic season however it ends up .

Progress is the word . 

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1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

If we go up, I would happily take not going crazy in the transfer market and suffering relegation as it would put us in a much stronger position in terms of building a team that can compete in the Prem.  Don't underestimate the power of the parachute payments when you have someone running the show who made his money in Financial Management.

So yes....I would happily accept promotion this year.

I would hope we would give it a good go at staying up like Cardiff have. Huddersfield have been pathetic and just accepted relegation from the start of the season, I wouldnt want us to be like them.

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9 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

Im not sure how much more “ready” anyone thinks we will ever be..?!

Stadium is sorted, crowds are good, team is good, infrastructure is good. 

The only way we can really progress any further is by getting there and taking our slice of the Premier league money. 

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1 hour ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

Lets be realistic, no team really is ever ready for the premier league, Fulham spent 100 million and look where they are now, if we have that attitude that were not ready we may as well stay were we are, let's get there then worry about it.

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1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Well, technically we have.

Two play off games for starters.

left himself wide open there didn't he!

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Firstly, I think the fact that we are competing at the top end of the Championship speaks volumes for how much progress the club has made over the last few seasons. I don’t think we’ll get promoted this season (I think we’ll get beaten in the play-offs) but it seems like expectations have been raised and we now see ourselves as a club with realistic aspirations for promotion rather than just being happy to be an established Championship club. 

If we get promoted to the Premier League, like others have said on this thread I expect we’d be relegated after one season, but the hope is that we could build from there after benefitting from the experience, raised profile and extra cash. I assume we’d also be more attractive to potential signings. 

On a side note, part of me is wary of being in the Premier League and I suspect the journey to get there might be better than the reality of being there. Having said that, we have to have ambitions to compete at the highest level and the club seems to be in the healthiest state I’ve seen it since I started attending games as a child in 1981.

 

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12 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

If we do achieve promotion, I hope that we do the right thing - and offer Aston Villa a pre-season friendly.

OH! how satisfying that would be.

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2 hours ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

Did they walk to away games?

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I think the Fulham approach was brave but misguided. I’d rather see a club give a chance, largely, to the players who got them promoted, with the same level of change you would normally have between seasons. At least then if you get relegated, you haven’t destroyed the infrastructure of the personnel. For the same reason, I think they should have stayed with the manager that got them up. Burnley’s approach was far more mature and far sighted in that sense.

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Who cares? You go up, collect a shed load of money and hopefully come back down better prepared for the next season.

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2 hours ago, Super said:

I would hope we would give it a good go at staying up like Cardiff have. Huddersfield have been pathetic and just accepted relegation from the start of the season, I wouldnt want us to be like them.

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

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Just now, maxjak said:

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

Agree with that. Fulham have made a mess of things and have spent lots of money. 

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3 hours ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

Please,wake me up when your finished.

Are you Robbored in disguise?

 

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5 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

There also has to be an argument made for our record against Premier league teams over the past 18 months. 

I know that they were “one off” games and very different to the relentless rigours of a league campaign, but it must read something like, without looking it up.... P8 W5 D0 L3. And that includes 2 fixtures, home & away against the best team in the country.  

Which both games going into extra time we were drawing and certainly in the 2nd leg had thrown everyone forward to try and get a winner

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2 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

Please,wake me up when your finished.

Are you Robbored in disguise?

 

Thanks for the response Robert, I apologise for thinking this was a discussion forum but perhaps that is lost on you hence the well thought out response and contribution to the thread. Was there really any need to be facetious.

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18 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

I think one of the big differences between giving it a good go and getting completely turned over each week is the manner in which you set up. Cardiff played pragmatic, organised football based on their limited ability. This made them hard to break down and it wasn't too dissimilar to how they got promoted in 2017/18. Fulham, on the other hand, played expansive football in the Championship and turned over many teams. This season they've tried to play in a similar way and have been out-footballed by most sides. Sometimes being a good football side does not equip you well for the Premier League.*

Most of this season we've kept quite tight and organised. I'd like to think that this would be in our favour and would set us in good stead for a season of defending in the Premier League. One thing that is certain, we would struggle to score regularly in the Premier League given our lack of goals this season. Arguably we have scored enough goals given that we have acquired enough points to position us where we are, but we would struggle to unlock a defence regularly.

*A couple of caveats to this - if your squad has a significantly better footballing ability than the rest of the league (ie Wolves, Newcastle etc) this is often the case. 

 

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7 hours ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

I disagree. Last season we lost 3 of our best players. LJ has done very well in replacing them. But with our transfer kitty always likely to leave us behind the likes of Derby, Sheffield United , etc , if the same occurs this season we will be able to replace them. We have to take opportunities when they present themselves. Not rely on a continual improvement that is far from a given. Whether the team is good enough IF we got promoted with sensible spending once you are on the Premiership gravy train then financially we would be a lot stronger.

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We seem to raise our game against these better teams.

So, if we went up we'd have 30+ of those over a season.

Logic then says we'll piss the league, Europe here we come!

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8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Promoted Championship clubs via the pray off final very often struggle to survive in the PL and if City get up via that route we would undoubtedly struggle. 

Actually, up to last season, (not including this season) 15 teams who got promoted via the play offs were relegated in their first season. Whilst 17 who finished champions or runners up were. 

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While I wouldn't expect us to follow Wolves & be competing for 7th in our first season, relegation after one season is not a given. However don't follow the Fulham route and splash all your cash on players who haven't played in the Premier League.

Things that are needed by all promoted teams are a  resolute defence, a decent playmaker, and a forward who can score at that level, which is where the acquisition of 3 or 4 top notch players will cost but also make the difference. Both Cardiff and Huddersfield are lacking decent strikers and it shows. Fulham have Mitrovic but no one in midfield of high enough quality, the surprise being that Tom Cairney hasn't really made the step up, plus a woeful defence.

Norwich will probably make a decent fist of it next season, if Pukki can keep scoring and with Krul in goal. However they will still need to strengthen their defence and add to their midfield. Plus they are unlikely to blow the budget, given recent experience. 

As for us, the goalkeeping situation (Max's heroics on Saturday aside) needs sorting and we need more speed and attacking intent in midfield. We also need a natural striker, who can score 15+ goals at that level.This could be the hardest player to find and would undoubtedly cost the most.

And finally if we did go straight back down then at least we would have the experience and the parachute payments to have a better chance of promotion again.

Seriously, if you look at some of the clubs in the Premier League like Bournemouth, Watford and Brighton, are we really suggesting that we couldn't compete with them, given the changes at the club, the ground, the backing of Mr Lansdown, and generating support from the 7th largest city in England?!

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7 hours ago, Super said:

Agree with that. Fulham have made a mess of things and have spent lots of money. 

Out of the 100 million Fulham spent on new players.........I understand only one of them had ever played in the English Premier League previously, that's a massive dice roll, and not very smart.  Hindsight is easy, but Fulham's forward planning sucked. 😜

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12 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Just need to check Burnley to see what is more than possible with the right management. Promoted, relegated with money, strengthened, promoted, consolidated.

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

Agree. Burnley is the model to follow. I would hope that the club - and the fans - would see that and stick with LJ even if we were relegated from the PL, as Burnley did with Dyche.

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We comfortably compete in one off games against premier league sides now. I don’t believe there is much difference from the bottom half of the premier league to the top half of the championship talent wise. There is never a right or wrong time to go up. Huddersfield weren’t a great promoted side and had 2 years of prem football. They will be in good shape coming down now. 

13 minutes ago, eardun said:

Agree. Burnley is the model to follow. I would hope that the club - and the fans - would see that and stick with LJ even if we were relegated from the PL, as Burnley did with Dyche.

Brighton not a bad model either. Have kept their core players together and not spent outrageous fees or wages. Probably staying up for a third consecutive year of premier league football. Think what Burnley and Brighton have proven is have a philosophy and stick to it. 

If we were promoted, I’d like to see us target some of the best u25 championship players. With a few foreign recruits(value for money is insane when you get it right) to add to the mix. If it all gels you have a good young team that will get a second year in the premier league. If not, you still have a young core who are championship proven. 

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21 hours ago, MigratedRobin said:

If we go up that would be amazing. If we don't then at least we look like proper contenders in this division, which should hopefully put us on the radar for better players in the summer to strengthen the squad. It seems like a win/win to me.

i get that but we would also be at risk of losing our better players again and you can't keep doing that.

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We're improving season on season as more of the young players are coming through (like Elliasson and Kelly this season). If we could sign a regular goalscorer and a 'playmaker' midfielder then next season we'll be challenging near the top, we're not quite the finished article yet.

If and when we get promoted there's no reason why we shouldn't emulate Bournemouth in the long run if things are managed properly although surviving the first season will be touch and go at best.

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20 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Actually, up to last season, (not including this season) 15 teams who got promoted via the play offs were relegated in their first season. Whilst 17 who finished champions or runners up were. 

On the theme of lies,  damn lies and statistics - only one team is promoted via play offs and two via,  umm,  the top 2. So given that figure of 15 is divided by 1, and 17 is divided by 2, the failure rate for play off winners is in fact higher.

What's the break down for specifically 2nd place teams being relegated first season and 1st place teams being relegated first season? 

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11 minutes ago, ukneil said:

On the theme of lies,  damn lies and statistics - only one team is promoted via play offs and two via,  umm,  the top 2. So given that figure of 15 is divided by 1, and 17 is divided by 2, the failure rate for play off winners is in fact higher.

What's the break down for specifically 2nd place teams being relegated first season and 1st place teams being relegated first season? 

Yes, I’m aware of the ratio differential, but that doesn’t change the fact that more who have been promoted automatically ( grated, there are double the number of teams) get relegated in their first season. 

It’s nota very fair comparison, I agree, but it does show that going up Automatically can just as easily lead to coming straight back down. 

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