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Judda

Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

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Hmmmmm...

EFL meeting at midday.

Here's MY hope of what will be announced- obviously a reversal and saving but also, a bit of a wishlist:

  1. Bury saving.
  2. A FULL investigation into both Bolton and Bury, with legal action against the likes of Anderson, Dale, and yes Harvey etc if failings applicable and punishable by law are found.
  3. New Independent body for EFL financial regulation- TRULY independent.
  4. Changes to certain FFP loopholes, which should never have been lifted in the first place.
  5. Perhaps dare I dream, an investigation into certain clubs who exploited said loopholes- a full and independent one at that, with FFP submissions retrospectively adjusted and points docked if necessary- with the punishment for Aston Villa either to be applied by PL or kept in reserve for if/when they return.

Obviously the first one is the main one but any of the other 4 would be excellent and a very nice bonus. Long overdue in the case of 3 and 4 as well!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Nick Mason from the Floyd one of the investors - What more could you want !

Defensively they should improve, especially with the improvised line of players putting up a barrier in front of a free kick specialist.

What? We conceded? Nick, any ideas?

All in all you need a-nother.....

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Isn't the EFL just the clubs self-regulating?? Because if it's just the clubs self-regulating, it's hardly surprising that the rules are lax.

Business owners won't vote for tougher regulations with penalties, controls over how they spend their money or constraints on who they can sell their businesses to when they've got bored  or run out of money? Maybe some tweaks but nothing of the kind that's needed.

Businesses go bust all the time - it's the way capitalism works. If we don't want clubs to go bust on a regular basis, or for them to be subject to asset stripping or other predatory practices that are part of the rough and tumble of any other sector... if instead we want them to be treated like community assets, then we need legislation. 

We need an independent regulator, empowered in law to manage participation in the football league so that there's genuine FFP, rules that work to provide ownership oversight and to provide protection for communities of fans who - unlike in other business sectors, don't shop around. 

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8 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

Isn't the EFL just the clubs self-regulating?? Because if it's just the clubs self-regulating, it's hardly surprising that the rules are lax.

Business owners won't vote for tougher regulations with penalties, controls over how they spend their money or constraints on who they can sell their businesses to when they've got bored  or run out of money? Maybe some tweaks but nothing of the kind that's needed.

Businesses go bust all the time - it's the way capitalism works. If we don't want clubs to go bust on a regular basis, or for them to be subject to asset stripping or other predatory practices that are part of the rough and tumble of any other sector... if instead we want them to be treated like community assets, then we need legislation. 

We need an independent regulator, empowered in law to manage participation in the football league so that there's genuine FFP, rules that work to provide ownership oversight and to provide protection for communities of fans who - unlike in other business sectors, don't shop around. 

As I understand it, the clubs agree on the rules/regulations and they appoint the  EFL to administer those rules/regulations.

Obviously, there are regulations that come from outside the EFL but its still down to the clubs to interpret them and instruct the EFL to administer them - stand to be corrected but thats how I see it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmmmmm...

EFL meeting at midday.

Here's MY hope of what will be announced- obviously a reversal and saving but also, a bit of a wishlist:

  1. Bury saving.
  2. A FULL investigation into both Bolton and Bury, with legal action against the likes of Anderson, Dale, and yes Harvey etc if failings applicable and punishable by law are found.
  3. New Independent body for EFL financial regulation- TRULY independent.
  4. Changes to certain FFP loopholes, which should never have been lifted in the first place.
  5. Perhaps dare I dream, an investigation into certain clubs who exploited said loopholes- a full and independent one at that, with FFP submissions retrospectively adjusted and points docked if necessary- with the punishment for Aston Villa either to be applied by PL or kept in reserve for if/when they return.

Obviously the first one is the main one but any of the other 4 would be excellent and a very nice bonus. Long overdue in the case of 3 and 4 as well!

That would be nice

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

 

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4 minutes ago, cityal said:

That would be nice

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

 

Sadly, will closer to that than my wishlist I fear...

Still, the first one on my list WILL be addressed, I'm sure of it. The rest are for another day.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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Football supporters everywhere were shocked and saddened when on the 27th August Bury FC were expelled from the EFL.

A 134 year old institution gone. Generations of fans left without the cornerstone of their community that so many of us take for granted.

We fans often revel in the tribalism of our game but the deep love we have for our own club serves to strengthen solidarity when a crisis emerges.

In the past couple of days there has been an outpouring of compassion, empathy and sorrow from hundreds of thousands of fans across the country and throughout the leagues.

This weekend be grateful that your club has a game to play, that you can continue your matchday rituals with friends and family, like every other Saturday. Soak up the experience and appreciate it... and on the 27th minute, the FSA is calling for supporters everywhere to applaud for one minute in a nationwide display of solidarity for Bury.

Why a minute of applause on the 27th minute? Because on 27th August a football club was expelled from the league for the first time in 27 years. Let's show that we care and we are angry that this situation has been allowed to happen.

The FSA is lobbying hard to protect our clubs from unscrupulous or incompetent owners - conflicts of interest have to be removed as owners have shown they cannot regulate themselves and our clubs deserve special protections more in line with those afforded to listed buildings. Football clubs are not just another business.

We'll need your support for that campaign in the weeks and months ahead, but for this weekend, let's start by showing supporter solidarity with Bury fans on the 27th minute.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmmmmm...

EFL meeting at midday.

Here's MY hope of what will be announced- obviously a reversal and saving but also, a bit of a wishlist:

  1. Bury saving.
  2. A FULL investigation into both Bolton and Bury, with legal action against the likes of Anderson, Dale, and yes Harvey etc if failings applicable and punishable by law are found.
  3. New Independent body for EFL financial regulation- TRULY independent.
  4. Changes to certain FFP loopholes, which should never have been lifted in the first place.
  5. Perhaps dare I dream, an investigation into certain clubs who exploited said loopholes- a full and independent one at that, with FFP submissions retrospectively adjusted and points docked if necessary- with the punishment for Aston Villa either to be applied by PL or kept in reserve for if/when they return.

Obviously the first one is the main one but any of the other 4 would be excellent and a very nice bonus. Long overdue in the case of 3 and 4 as well!

There is a lot of regulation that SHOULD be now enforced on all EFL clubs as a lesson learned from this. There are genuine fears that Bury could be the tip of the iceberg.

However can you see a situation where clubs vote for that? For example if you introduced far more stringent (and sensible) rules on allowable expenditure and loss making relative to GENUINE turnover where would that leave us? Is that any chance of us reaching the Premiership in the next ten years gone? Do we create a closed shop Premiership in all but name and a Championship where the relegated Premiership sides have even more clout than they do now? Even the bloody Gas are managing to spunk £65K a week they don’t have!!

Perhaps things would right themselves in time if the EFL bit the bullet and the game would be longer term better for it?

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31 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

As I understand it, the clubs agree on the rules/regulations and they appoint the  EFL to administer those rules/regulations.

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

Can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas..

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17 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

There is a lot of regulation that SHOULD be now enforced on all EFL clubs as a lesson learned from this. There are genuine fears that Bury could be the tip of the iceberg.

However can you see a situation where clubs vote for that? For example if you introduced far more stringent (and sensible) rules on allowable expenditure and loss making relative to GENUINE turnover where would that leave us? Is that any chance of us reaching the Premiership in the next ten years gone? Do we create a closed shop Premiership in all but name and a Championship where the relegated Premiership sides have even more clout than they do now? Even the bloody Gas are managing to spunk £65K a week they don’t have!!

Perhaps things would right themselves in time if the EFL bit the bullet and the game would be longer term better for it?

Agreed- a lot of regulation, both existing that isn't properly enforced, upgraded and fresh all needed now. Agree about the tip of the iceberg risk too, a report a few years ago which I'll try to find, said something about 3/4 of EFL clubs being in trouble or maybe over the next 10 years.- may well have been referring to mainly the bottom 2 divisions.

Rules in Championship may well be okay, it's the enforcement or lack of that's the issue I think. Likewise 55% of turnover in League Two and 60% in League One seems okay...but chairman can then put in loads and it classes as turnover so that one needs a change for one! Could keep existing rules albeit amended and tightened, and additionally implement monthly monitoring of finances by the EFL of the 72 and the first sign a club hits financial distress, there is an automatic embargo- as a holding position, they cannot make the situation worse. That is one way- you are right though a balance needs to be struck which is why I am wary of wage caps or % of turnover split, at this level for example- it goes just eg £100m PL, £41m for year one parachute payments and say £7-8m for a typical Championship club. The £41m also gets some of the revenues a Championship club might get- these payments need reform as well, or some conditionality added and I've thought this for a long time. Could also take some from parachute payments and have it filter down to the bottom 2 divisions, whose need is pretty desperate it seems- a redistribution of that bit of redistribution.

Think no doubt reform is necessary and overdue but they need to be very careful for the reasons that you state.

The other possible law of unintended consequence, is make them too tight and too strait jacketed, and good investors may be more reluctant, may give up- and Unfit and improper ones maybe some of the only ones who want to do it- Asset strippers, Fraudsters, Idiots to name 3...

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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8 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

I've just had a look at the EFL's Mem and Arts registered at Companies House.

Each club in the football league holds a share in The Football League Ltd. for as long as they remain in the league. Six of nine board members are appointed are club represenatives: 3 from the Championship, 2 from L1 and 1 from L2.

In order to change any of the rules, a majority of clubs need to vote for it...

...which is why we are where we are and why things won't change without external - governmental - intervention.

I love the way the FSA in @phantom's post, above, are suggesting parallels between listed buildings and clubs. Owners of listed buildings can't just do what they want with them, and the same should apply to club owners.

 

 

You will never get government intervention.  FIFA hates it when governments try to interfere with football affairs.

If anyone is going to intervene it would have to be the FA...

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1 minute ago, Loderingo said:

You will never get government intervention.

No - I agree it looks like a long shot! Certainly need more than just poor Bury going under for government to do anything about it. Looks like there have been periodic calls from government for better football governance for over 50 years!

But I think hoping that the EFL will come up with meaningful reforms is even more unlikely.

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1 hour ago, cityal said:

I have a feeling its more likely to be along the lines of - "Lunch was great! poached quail eggs salad, roast venison with sauteed red cabbage and parmentier potatoes all washed down with a nice Chataeu Latour at £600 per bottle."

By the time that bottle had been bought and sold to each other several times it would be worth millions! All counting towards turnover for FFP purposes, of course 

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10 minutes ago, phantom said:

Interesting that there is an emergency EFL meeting taking place right now. . . . . 

Should be finishing in 10 minutes as lunch will be over by then.

 

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34 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

By the time that bottle had been bought and sold to each other several times it would be worth millions! All counting towards turnover for FFP purposes, of course 

More on that:

The first time it was resold for £2000

The next time they resold the bottle on the basis that it was the actual Chateau Latour and it sold for £150M

An independent Auditor came in and said that seemed "fair"

Derby and Villa got away with it

Meeting outcome: 6 game bans for Famara Dhiedhou and Bailey Wright

Edited by cityal
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Quote

5.3 Subject to the provisions of the Articles of Association and these Regulations, The League may from time to time and upon such terms and conditions as it may think fit admit any Association Football club as a member or expel or accept the retirement of any member from The League provided always that no member may be expelled without the sanction of a special resolution passed at an Annual or Extraordinary General Meeting of The League. Any casual vacancy occurring in the membership of The League may be filled by the Board.

Hmm...

Does this mean an AGM or in this instance, an EGM required for expulsion I wonder?

Presumably by "the League" it means the 72 clubs as opposed to merely the board- or would the board suffice for such a decision, if an insolvency event happens?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmm...

Does this mean an AGM or in this instance, an EGM required for expulsion I wonder?

Could be what this afternoons sudden meeting is?

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Said it the other day but worth reiterating- smacks a LOT of Accrington Stanley 1962, this final phase.

Quote

An international consortium has £7m in the bank and is ready to complete a takeover of Bury, if the EFL agrees to reinstate the club, Sky Sports News understands.

Gustavo Ferreira, a partner in a gold mining company, is the man behind the proposed takeover and is trying to get the EFL to rescind its decision to expel the club from the English Football League.

It is understood the EFL would be unlikely to change its decision at this point, however it is possible that an injunction may be served on the football league if Ferreira's request for it to explore the possibility of overturning the decision goes unanswered.

The consortium says it has shown the EFL proof of funds and was in negotiations to buy the club on Tuesday night, before Bury were removed from the Football League.

The EFL made the decision to expel Bury after a proposed takeover by C&N Sporting Risk fell through on Tuesday afternoon, just hours before the 5pm deadline.

That was as of yesterday.

Accrington Stanley 1962.

Quote

It was on March 6, 1962, that Accrington's four remaining directors sent a letter of resignation to the League, and in doing so consigned this historic football region to 40 years in the wilderness. Stanley became the first club in Football League history who were unable to fulfil their fixtures.

At a creditors' meeting on the previous evening, it was established that of the £43,566 owed by the club, just £4,000 was needed in the short term to stay alive.

Two days after the fateful letter was received at the League's headquarters, a man walked into the club's office and put a bag on the table with £10,000 cash inside.

"You can borrow that interest free," he said, "and pay it back whenever you can manage it. I don't want to see this club go under."

Given the opportunity to grant a reprieve to Accrington Stanley, the League's management committee chose to accept the original letter of resignation.

EFL though technically a different organisation as Football League all one thing then, and not exactly identical circumstances, have YET AGAIN done the wrong thing by a club with potential for being saved at the last!!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Said it the other day but worth reiterating- smacks a LOT of Accrington Stanley 1962, this final phase.

That was as of yesterday.

Accrington Stanley 1962.

EFL though technically a different organisation as Football League all one thing then, and not exactly identical circumstances, have YET AGAIN done the wrong thing by a club with potential for being saved at the last!!

So Accrington Stanley went bust for less than £1m in today’s money. How many EFL clubs are “only” £1m in the red as of today?!!!

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6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

So Accrington Stanley went bust for less than £1m in today’s money. How many EFL clubs are “only” £1m in the red as of today?!!!

Once adjusted for inflation etc.

Yep. Such a relatively low number, according to an inflation calculator- well fill your boots. That's the total debt, but the Football League basically was a case of computer said no despite the fact it'd have saved them and brought time.

https://www.officialdata.org/uk/inflation/1962?amount=43566

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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Why would a South American gold miner want to buy Bury?

Unfortunately, it is too late now and the only way back is via a phoenix club.

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https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/aug/28/bury-expulsion-efl-regulations-meaningless

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/29/bury-cva-investigation

Both articles are worth a read and back up much that has been written on this thread already. And while the Champions League undertakes its group stage draw and where money of £2bn is going to shared out this season, mostly to the clubs that are already the richest, you can see how a “free market” in football really works. Like many parts of capitalism, those with the most would actually like a monopoly on the commodity, so as to become even richer, whether it be stitching up the competitions to ensure that they always qualify, or enduring that they make the most from the TV rights.

Sport thrives on unpredictability, witness last weekend’s test match. And although last season’s Champions League semi-finals, and Ajax’s run to the semi-final were a throw back to more unpredictable times of the European Cup (finalists from Greece, Belgium and Sweden for instance) in the main, it’s the same predictable few clubs who make it to the last few rounds. And after a while if you don’t support one of those teams, it all gets just a bit boring.

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Has anyone set up a crowd funding page or something? Couldn’t every football fan donate a quid at the weekend to show real support? Could this be done by supporters trust or something? 

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

So Accrington Stanley went bust for less than £1m in today’s money. How many EFL clubs are “only” £1m in the red as of today?!!!

Aldershot went the same way in 1992;

 On 31 July, 1990, the club was actually wound up in the High Court, where the administrator described them as "hopelessly insolvent" with debts of £495,000 (comparatively trivial by today's standards) but were given a reprieve when 19 year-old property developer, Spencer Trethewy, bought the club for £200,000 and Aldershot were able to start the new season. It soon became apparent that Trethewy did not have the funds to keep the club running and he was removed in November 1990. (Trethewy later served a two-year sentence for fraud.) Aldershot struggled on to the end of the season (finishing next to last).

With the club continuing to struggle at the bottom of the league and debts spiraling out of control, the directors finally admitted defeat and on 25 March, 1992, Aldershot FC was wound up in the High Court for the second time. As a result they became the first club since Accrington Stanley to resign from the League during the course of a season. Ironically their shirt sponsor had gone bankrupt a couple of months earlier and the team played out their remaining fixtures in unsponsored shirts.

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7 minutes ago, 22A said:

Aldershot went the same way in 1992;

 On 31 July, 1990, the club was actually wound up in the High Court, where the administrator described them as "hopelessly insolvent" with debts of £495,000 (comparatively trivial by today's standards) but were given a reprieve when 19 year-old property developer, Spencer Trethewy, bought the club for £200,000 and Aldershot were able to start the new season. It soon became apparent that Trethewy did not have the funds to keep the club running and he was removed in November 1990. (Trethewy later served a two-year sentence for fraud.) Aldershot struggled on to the end of the season (finishing next to last).

With the club continuing to struggle at the bottom of the league and debts spiraling out of control, the directors finally admitted defeat and on 25 March, 1992, Aldershot FC was wound up in the High Court for the second time. As a result they became the first club since Accrington Stanley to resign from the League during the course of a season. Ironically their shirt sponsor had gone bankrupt a couple of months earlier and the team played out their remaining fixtures in unsponsored shirts.

There's been a few!

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/sport/the-football-leagues-lost-clubs/

It also misses out Newport.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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20 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Quite a few Bolton Fans fancy Dean Holden As Manager But accept he may not fancy leaving here to go back there

Ryan Lowe on Sky last night suggested Kevin Nolan, which is a decent shout I think.

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33 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Ryan Lowe on Sky last night suggested Kevin Nolan, which is a decent shout I think.

It is. Out of work at present so no compo and a club legend everyone can get behind. He must have plenty of contacts too and always seems a decent bloke when interviewed.

He really can`t lose given the state they`re in and if he does keep them up they`ll build a statue of him.

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Read something online well just a Tweet about Bury in NW Counties League.

Making a few assumptions here but surely that'd be AFC Bury or something, don't see who would buy it if the expulsion upheld? Plus would be next season I suspect.

Bolton- Big Sam return in some capacity at all possible? Wages notwithstanding of course!

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I certainly agree with the sentiment.

The only slight caveat I would add is price of football rising, even at lower levels, and a lot of these towns aren't terribly well off...after all many of the ex bankrupt or indeed voted out of the League sides down the years were from Northern areas.

Always should support local side where possible though, absolutely!

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I certainly agree with the sentiment.

The only slight caveat I would add is price of football rising, even at lower levels, and a lot of these towns aren't terribly well off...after all many of the ex bankrupt or indeed voted out of the League sides down the years were from Northern areas.

Always should support local side where possible though, absolutely!

I know opportunities are limited in some areas, but increasingly roles are transient.

I probably go to the office once every 4 or 6 weeks, apart from that, I work from home. So in theory, I could earn exactly the rate I do now, but in a much cheaper area of the country. 

So yes, there are some areas of high unemployment, but people could easily invest in these areas.

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On 27/08/2019 at 20:24, BS4 on Tour... said:

You still haven’t answered the questions I’ve asked you a couple of times - if City merged with another club and played under a different name, in a different location and in a different kit - would you go and watch them?

And if Bury and Bolton merged under the name Bury Wanderers and played in Bolton - how many fans of each club do you think would watch ‘that’?

.... I’ve assumed you haven’t got any answers to the questions I’ve continually asked you @Up The City! ? As you are a football fan who has made it clear you are in favour of clubs merging, I was really interested in your answers to my questions - you’ve been very active on here since I posed those questions so it’s clear you’ve chosen to simply ignore answering them, how rude! 

Edited by BS4 on Tour...

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5 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Has anyone set up a crowd funding page or something? Couldn’t every football fan donate a quid at the weekend to show real support? Could this be done by supporters trust or something? 

Surprised no Bury fan had started one. They needed £3million...they would have got that no doubt.

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10 hours ago, Northern Red said:

A minute of chanting "**** the EFL" would be better than applause.

Won't work for us this weekend, Sky will just mute the chants/play crowd noises instead for the tv audience to block it

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15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Said it the other day but worth reiterating- smacks a LOT of Accrington Stanley 1962, this final phase.

That was as of yesterday.

Accrington Stanley 1962.

EFL though technically a different organisation as Football League all one thing then, and not exactly identical circumstances, have YET AGAIN done the wrong thing by a club with potential for being saved at the last!!

 

14 hours ago, Loderingo said:

Why would a South American gold miner want to buy Bury?

Unfortunately, it is too late now and the only way back is via a phoenix club.

I was very suspicious of that when I read that article, where were these people 20 or 30 days ago? 

Proof of funds is one thing, they can’t have had time to do their due diligence, was Steve Dale prepares to sell to them, in my opinion its just shitstirring and giving their fans false hope. 

As @Loderingo says, the Phoenix club will be the best bet, let them invest in that if they are genuine, work their way back up the leagues.

This has happened to clubs like York and Halifax, but they didn’t get the same coverage because they had already fallen down the leagues, before going bust.

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On 28/08/2019 at 15:03, Robson said:

 

 

GoFundMe page for Bury FC. 

All proceeds going to the Bury Community Trust. 

The twitter account has gained over 8k followers in 3 days.  

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Article about a salary cap in the Football League!

Except just click on it and note the date . :grr::grr:

The will clearly just isn't, if it ever was, there.

One more thing.

EDNSg8kWkAAXupG.jpg

Anyone know where the EGM of the 72 is??

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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1 hour ago, Robson said:

GoFundMe page for Bury FC. 

All proceeds going to the Bury Community Trust. 

The twitter account has gained over 8k followers in 3 days.  

I feel more empathy for the staff and players of the club who could do with this money more urgently

There are already reports on one player who has to move as he can't afford his mortgage and another who's wife is expecting

Maybe a bit random but would be a great gesture if Bolton could take on as many of these people as possible

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It's fair to say that Bury are not going quietly- or their fans at least!

 
 
I think there could be a very real debate to be had as to whether the EFL followed their own rules in terms of the expulsion.
 
You'd assume they had but pretty questionable IMO...
Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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