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Major Isewater

League 1 stealth division

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National media coverage is virtually nonexistent in League 1 and below which in turn has an effect on gates, tv money and the ability of a club to market themselves.

We generate so much more ‘ wealth ‘ as a Championship club that the gap is frightening , we must never drop into the abyss again.

It’s not just a question of demand either more so of how the Premier league is affected ; ie clubs in the Championship will get promoted there so they keep a wary eye out .

I don’t like this huge divide , even though we are currently on the right side . The health of our game is the strength of the bottom of the pyramid more needs to be done .

 

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I completely agree. I think something that is quite striking, and this might be because I live in London rather than Bristol now, is that - whilst I could name several players from most Championship clubs - I genuinely could not name a single Bristol Rovers player*. Part of me finds that quite funny but it does show how little coverage and attention League One sides get. 

 

*Edit: Just remembered that Mark Little plays for them now. 

Edited by LondonBristolian
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It would be a disaster if we went back to league 1 again, unfortunately we have spent far to long bouncing between 2nd and 3rd divisions, had some great times following City in the lower leagues but it's not a place I ever want to go again.

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24 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

National media coverage is virtually nonexistent in League 1 and below which in turn has an effect on gates, tv money and the ability of a club to market themselves.

We generate so much more ‘ wealth ‘ as a Championship club that the gap is frightening , we must never drop into the abyss again.

It’s not just a question of demand either more so of how the Premier league is affected ; ie clubs in the Championship will get promoted there so they keep a wary eye out .

I don’t like this huge divide , even though we are currently on the right side . The health of our game is the strength of the bottom of the pyramid more needs to be done .

 

You would think that Sunderland and Portsmouth would generate some interest at that level, maybe if Stoke and  Huddersfield go down then it might more interest as they were so recently premiership.

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I honestly would be surprised if we were ever again relegated to League 1, the gap in quality to the Championship is almost now as great as Championship to Premier League. The teams that come up from League 1will have a hard time staying up maybe 2 or 3 could compete but we now are surely going to be better than at least half a dozen in this division from now on.

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4 minutes ago, pillred said:

I honestly would be surprised if we were ever again relegated to League 1

In this league you can easily go on a bad run of form. Throw into the mix say 3 or 4 injuries to key players.........it’s possible. I agree with you that we look a solid championship club with ambition to be in the Premier League but we should not be complacent

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There are always small teams in this division and at our current level of support it would be an absolute joke and epic fail if we find ourselves back in League One again.

 

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8 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

In this league you can easily go on a bad run of form. Throw into the mix say 3 or 4 injuries to key players.........it’s possible. I agree with you that we look a solid championship club with ambition to be in the Premier League but we should not be complacent

We've already got the 3-4 injuries to key players and we're 3rd! 

But I agree with you really.

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37 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

You would think that Sunderland and Portsmouth would generate some interest at that level, maybe if Stoke and  Huddersfield go down then it might more interest as they were so recently premiership.

I think  the problem is London based media. I've posted before;  draw a line on the map from  Birmingham  to  London. Football  does not exist South or West  of that line. Similarly draw another line London - Leeds and then  across to Merseyside;  no  football North  or East  of that line. I have not forgotten Saints,  B'mouth or Norwich, but all  too often the media does.

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Back in the 90s there was a period where the gap between the Prem and the Championship was huge and the 3 sides who went up would invariably come straight back down.  Since then the Championship has closed that gap and now there isn't a huge difference in quality between the top half of the Championship and the bottom half of the Premiership.

As a result a gap has now started to open up between the Championship and League One, and it is more common to see yo-yo teams like Rotherham.

If you look at attendances that shows a pattern.  Leeds have a higher average attendance so far than half the premiership clubs and even City have a higher attendance than 3 Premiership teams.

By contrast only 4 League One teams have a higher attendance than the lowest Championship club (Luton). 

Really only Sunderland, Ipswich and Portsmouth could make a case they deserve to be in the Championship at the moment.

A lot of clubs in that division have either seen better days (Coventry, Bolton) or are going nowhere (Rovers, Gillingham) plus a few clubs like Accrington and Fleetwood for whom it's probably as good as it gets.

I don't agree we won't go back there every again. Ipswich have shown that if you don't invest you can slip down the league, while Prem clubs being relegated twice is becoming more common for those who invest badly.

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36 minutes ago, pillred said:

I honestly would be surprised if we were ever again relegated to League 1, the gap in quality to the Championship is almost now as great as Championship to Premier League. The teams that come up from League 1will have a hard time staying up maybe 2 or 3 could compete but we now are surely going to be better than at least half a dozen in this division from now on.

That’s dangerous talk.  We’ve gone from close to the Premiership to relegation fodder in three or four seasons before, and who’s to say it won’t happen again?  I would like to think not, but we only have to overreach ourselves financially or make a bad managerial appointment and the situation could change.  This is why it’s so important to get behind the present regime and to be patient as they build for the future.

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6 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

That’s dangerous talk.  We’ve gone from close to the Premiership to relegation fodder in three or four seasons before, and who’s to say it won’t happen again?  I would like to think not, but we only have to overreach ourselves financially or make a bad managerial appointment and the situation could change.  This is why it’s so important to get behind the present regime and to be patient as they build for the future.

The club, and football in general has changed massively since that happened though.

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39 minutes ago, Diddlydonkey said:

There’s a lot less coverage of the lower leagues on the BBC website as well now, in favour of the European ones.

Or women's football. Football that draws smaller crowds, has less history, and is made up of teams that are offshoots of already successful men's clubs. The coverage of women's football will harm those league 1 and 2 clubs. Fans only have do much time, money, and inclination to follow sport. For years women's teams complained they got no coverage - well now they are getting it and who is losing out? Lower league men's clubs that are the sole club in their community and have years of history.

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1 hour ago, pillred said:

I honestly would be surprised if we were ever again relegated to League 1, the gap in quality to the Championship is almost now as great as Championship to Premier League. The teams that come up from League 1will have a hard time staying up maybe 2 or 3 could compete but we now are surely going to be better than at least half a dozen in this division from now on.

:o

That's an incredible statement, with respect!!

I understand where you're going with it on gap with quality etc, though Sheffield United went up 2 divisions in 3 seasons- changes yes but still a number who played in League One and of course a brilliant manager- the gap still very much on the rise however, yes.

I get the 2nd bolded bit too but there are far too many variables to project into the future like that- waaay too many.

Overall though, that is one hell of a temptation of fate! I bet all manner of clubs thought they would not be in League One, or even the bottom end of the Championship again...?

Truly one of the most incredible statements I have read on this forum.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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23 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

well now they are getting it and who is losing out? Lower league men's clubs that are the sole club in their community and have years of history.

So because it's how things have always been then we should avoid the womens game? As long as the mens games okay.... 

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8 minutes ago, Selred said:

So because it's how things have always been then we should avoid the womens game? As long as the mens games okay.... 

More that the media seem so wet to cover Chelsea women v Man City girls. Just seems like these big club bolt on teams provide an excuse for even more coverage of the big clubs at the expense of clubs with years of history and far more meaning to their communities.

Certain podcasts I listen to now feature long sections rounding up the women's game but nothing on L2. 

Edited by ExiledAjax
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The global TV audience for the Premiership has poured enormous amounts of money in at that top level so making it the world's top money earning league and effectively a global league in tersm of coaches, players and TV audiences.

I would say that Premiership football in England is now as much a different game from the rest of English football as is women's football from men's.  I'm not trying to steer the debate down that old route but the only thing that they all have in common is using the same rules.

Remember Tom Hanks' joking that he'd bet on Leicester.  The point is that not only had he heard of Leicester but he knew that they had won the Premiership; and knew that enough people worldwide would know that so he could make a joke about it.  I don't know who won the American Football league last year, or the Spanish football league come to that.  But Tom Hanks knew Leicester had won the EPL.

The Championship is only of wider interest because it promotes into the Premiership so the only interest is at the top end of the table.

The bottom half of the Championship, L1, L2 and below are like the Scottish leagues: unreported and unwatched except by their own fans because the media interest and therefore money sits squarely in the Premiership.

The gulf is now huge; promotion under Alan Dicks was great but it was similar to promotion under Cotts.  We stepped up a league; crowds were bigger, tickets were pricier and players were paid more but the difference wasn't huge.

Promotion to the Premiership now is like enetering a whole new world, like a repertory actor getting a starring role in a big budget film, everything changes except the basic rules of the game.  The money pours in and out again on the world's best players and the TV stations show every goal a dozen times.

It wasn't this way when it started, ?1994, but it has increasingly become so and if you are a club with no relaistic chance of getting there then you had better start watching your costs as there will be no big payday on getting into the Championship to clear your debts.

This is a sea change with clubs now being divided into Premiership / Premiership potential / and others.

 

If you are the others then you really need to reallign your sights because there is no gold at the end of your rainbow so stop running at a loss because it can only end badly.

Bolton and Bury have already fallen with Bury kicked out of the league; Charlton, Macclesfield, Coventry, Morecambe and Scunthorpe are teetering.  For these clubs, as with Bury, there may well not exist a "greater fool" who is prepared to take on a loss making club with more debts than assets and they will too find themselves a phoenix club in the non-leagues.  I also cannot see it ending well for the Rovers.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7415009/After-Burys-demise-Boltons-ongoing-financial-struggles-fall.html

 

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3 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

There are always small teams in this division and at our current level of support it would be an absolute joke and epic fail if we find ourselves back in League One again.

I’d say we are one of the smaller teams in this division - is it only five current championships who haven’t been in the premier league? We are one of those too - I don’t think we’ve reached the level just yet where we can be arrogant and call other clubs small - other much bigger clubs than us have experienced the ‘epic fail’ of ending up in league one - eg Man City, Leicester City, Southampton, Leeds Utd, Wolves, Sunderland etc etc...

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40 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’d say we are one of the smaller teams in this division - is it only five current championships who haven’t been in the premier league? We are one of those too - I don’t think we’ve reached the level just yet where we can be arrogant and call other clubs small - other much bigger clubs than us have experienced the ‘epic fail’ of ending up in league one - eg Man City, Leicester City, Southampton, Leeds Utd, Wolves, Sunderland etc etc...

I would say smaller to middling but absolutely agree with that.

To say never go down to League One again as another poster did- can't begin to fathom that one, given both football as it is and that's before we even factor in our very varied history.

I mean it'd be WONDERFUL- but to declare it when yes we're on an upward curve, is just laughable. 4 years ago Stoke had that great front 3 of Bojan-Shaqiri-Arnautovic, Butland in goal, think Allen joined them within a year, Martins Indi and Shawcross at CB. On paper IMO player for player think they were good enough to stay up in 2017/18- now look at them, absolute shambles in all senses!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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32 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’d say we are one of the smaller teams in this division - is it only five current championships who haven’t been in the premier league? We are one of those too - I don’t think we’ve reached the level just yet where we can be arrogant and call other clubs small - other much bigger clubs than us have experienced the ‘epic fail’ of ending up in league one - eg Man City, Leicester City, Southampton, Leeds Utd, Wolves, Sunderland etc etc...

Top ten in attendances is what I really mean, competing with the likes of Boro, Brum, Cardiff, Fulham even WBA, . Fair enough some have parachute payments but can you really imagine any of those getting relegated? Brum almost did after being shoddily run for a few years and that's my point - we'd have to do something really wrong to get relegated imo. All the others you mentioned overstretched themselves in the Prem, developed a familiarity with losing and fell but difficult to imagine the same happening to an established top half Championship club these days. With these days being very specific to very recent years where it does seem like a clear gap is developing between Championship and League One.

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33 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’d say we are one of the smaller teams in this division - is it only five current championships who haven’t been in the premier league? We are one of those too - I don’t think we’ve reached the level just yet where we can be arrogant and call other clubs small - other much bigger clubs than us have experienced the ‘epic fail’ of ending up in league one - eg Man City, Leicester City, Southampton, Leeds Utd, Wolves, Sunderland etc etc...

I don't know.

I have always (first match 1979) regarded City's natural level as a decent Championship, previously Div 2, club.  Similar over that timescale to Coventry, Stoke, Southampton, Ipswich.  All of whom are in very different relative places right now but with their support and history that's the sort of grouping I'd put us within.

There are bigger clubs in the division of course but we're hardly a minnow; there are a handful of small clubs in the current Championship but I wouldn't class us as being amongst them.

Size is no guarantee of success or protection against relegation but I would say top half of the Championship is where we naturally sit.

Obviously we can overachieve into the top division or massively underachieve into the bottom place in Div 4 depending upon management, recruitment and finances but I think with our support we are a natural Championship club.

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Thought I would just summarise some of the alternative media sources that do cover the EFL, just in case some on here aren't aware of them. Most suffer from the problem of having to squeeze coverage of 72 teams playing 36 matches a week into one hour or one website. Inevitably that means that not all teams get much more than a line or two each week. However in my experience the following are generally pretty fair and even-handed in their coverage.

TV

The EFL highlights show is on Quest every Saturday at 9pm. Freeview (channel 37) and Freesat (167). It will also be available on Sky (149), Virgin (172) and BT TV (37) services. Also on QuestOD can be accessed via the website - www.questod.co.uk - and the Google Play Store and App Store.

Youtube - the EFL has its own Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/TheFootballLeague/videos. This shows short (approx 2mins) highlights of most matches from all three divisions. It also features video versions of the EFL Podcast.

Print

The Football League Paper is available in both print and online form. https://www.theleaguepaper.com/ Their most recent feature on us is here https://www.theleaguepaper.com/latest-news/10773/can-bailey-wright-lead-bristol-city-to-promotion/

The Athletic is a newcomer to English media. Currently they only really cover a few of the big Championship teams but I believe they are trying to expand. It's a subscription service so watch out for that.

the72 lean slightly towards the top end of the Championship but do have extensive L1 and L2 coverage as well. https://the72.co.uk/

Audio

Probably my preferred method of hearing about the lower leagues are podcasts. For anyone that doesn't know these are essentially radio shows that you listen to via your phone. Download an app (Spotify, Google Podcasts, Audiobean or Acast are just a few of the most popular) and you can get these mostly weekly digests to listen to for free. Some have quite heavy advertising but you can skip those if you like. My favourites are;

The Totally Football League Show. Tries to cover all of the EFL in an hour each week. Ambititous to say the least but they generally do a decent job. All three divisions are covered pretty much equally.

Not The Top 20. Smaller than Totally Football but again they do a good job of covering all the leagues. A bit more relaxed that Totally as well.

Aforementioned EFL Podcast. The corporate, on-brand side of the EFL. Not bad and they do get some good access to managers and players, so you get some interesting interviews.

One Stream in Bristol - City specific apart from when Loanee Planet comes on.

If anyone can add to this list then be my guest.

Edit: also I think it is probably worth promoting non-league day. 12 October 2019 (during the next international break and the weekend after Reading at home) is this year's day. The website http://www.nonleagueday.co.uk/map.html can help you find a game. Bath, Yate and Clevedon are all playing at home that weekend. Non-league games are great as you can normally drink pitchside and they're just way more relaxed. I used to love going to Dulwich Hamlet, St Albans or Leyton Orient when I was in London. 

 

Edited by ExiledAjax
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6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

:o

That's an incredible statement, with respect!!

I understand where you're going with it on gap with quality etc, though Sheffield United went up 2 divisions in 3 seasons- changes yes but still a number who played in League One and of course a brilliant manager- the gap still very much on the rise however, yes.

I get the 2nd bolded bit too but there are far too many variables to project into the future like that- waaay too many.

Overall though, that is one hell of a temptation of fate! I bet all manner of clubs thought they would not be in League One, or even the bottom end of the Championship again...?

Truly one of the most incredible statements I have read on this forum.

Well thanks for the compliment, and I still stand by every word I said, it would take a set of catastrophic circumstances for us to be one of the 3 worst sides in the championship just can't see it happening, at least not in my lifetime.

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7 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

That’s dangerous talk.  We’ve gone from close to the Premiership to relegation fodder in three or four seasons before, and who’s to say it won’t happen again?  I would like to think not, but we only have to overreach ourselves financially or make a bad managerial appointment and the situation could change.  This is why it’s so important to get behind the present regime and to be patient as they build for the future.

Agree with this and the bold in particular. We should enjoy being in the Championship, and recognise that being around the top 6 is in fact a positive not necessarily a failure. The gradual, sustainable approach is more likely to keep us out of league one in the next few years rather than the ‘boom and/or bust’ approach. 

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6 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Or women's football. Football that draws smaller crowds, has less history, and is made up of teams that are offshoots of already successful men's clubs. The coverage of women's football will harm those league 1 and 2 clubs. Fans only have do much time, money, and inclination to follow sport. For years women's teams complained they got no coverage - well now they are getting it and who is losing out? Lower league men's clubs that are the sole club in their community and have years of history.

I can't see Women's Football having any impact on leagues 1 and 2.

As much as the BBC try to push the Women's game there is only so far it can go IMO. 

The crowds might grow but not to the detriment of men's football. The passion for clubs everywhere  is still there, be it Torquay or Preston passed down through the generations.

Do you think people would forsake watching their team for Women's football?

Put it this way if the City Ladies team lose dose it, or will it ever affect your Saturday night?

The Women's game will continue to grow and that's great but they won't be taking fans away from the football league.

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8 hours ago, pillred said:

I honestly would be surprised if we were ever again relegated to League 1, the gap in quality to the Championship is almost now as great as Championship to Premier League. The teams that come up from League 1will have a hard time staying up maybe 2 or 3 could compete but we now are surely going to be better than at least half a dozen in this division from now on.

Charlton ain't doing too bad at all. Luton also but obviously not as good as Charlton. 

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12 minutes ago, pillred said:

Well thanks for the compliment, and I still stand by every word I said, it would take a set of catastrophic circumstances for us to be one of the 3 worst sides in the championship just can't see it happening, at least not in my lifetime.

Erm. Wasn’t that long ago we went on a huge losing run and only saved ourselves with the last few results....I admire your confidence but you sound a bit complacent. What if the stability under Lansdown was replaced with some sheister who didn’t care for the club? 

 

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5 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

I can't see Women's Football having any impact on leagues 1 and 2.

As much as the BBC try to push the Women's game there is only so far it can go IMO. 

The crowds might grow but not to the detriment of men's football. The passion for clubs everywhere  is still there, be it Torquay or Preston passed down through the generations.

Do you think people would forsake watching their team for Women's football?

Put it this way if the City Ladies team lose dose it, or will it ever affect your Saturday night?

The Women's game will continue to grow and that's great but they won't be taking fans away from the football league.

I couldn't even tell you how the women's team get on. I have no interest in it whatsoever. If I had the choice I'd rather go to a Bears game and I barely understand the rules of Rugby. I get fed up of it being rammed down our throats all the time. 

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15 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

I can't see Women's Football having any impact on leagues 1 and 2.

As much as the BBC try to push the Women's game there is only so far it can go IMO. 

The crowds might grow but not to the detriment of men's football. The passion for clubs everywhere  is still there, be it Torquay or Preston passed down through the generations.

Do you think people would forsake watching their team for Women's football?

Put it this way if the City Ladies team lose dose it, or will it ever affect your Saturday night?

The Women's game will continue to grow and that's great but they won't be taking fans away from the football league.

I agree - coverage of women's football won't take away fans form established men's teams; no fan of Port Vale is going to abandon their club to go and watch the local WSL team. With respect that wasn't what I was trying to suggest.

This discussion is about the coverage that teams and clubs get.  Major, in the OP, bemoans the lack of coverage of the lower leagues. Coverage of women's football has increased over the past years. Therefore the resources to cover more football than the Prem and Championship are there, and existed in the past. Honestly, listen to an episode of Guardian Football Weekly from 5 years ago - the women's game won't get a look in and neither will L2. Now the women's game gets a 5-10 minute round up yet L2 still gets nothing. So its clear that the producers have decided to use part of their hour of football coverage to discuss the ladies teams. It's the same on other podcasts and in the press. Column inches and minutes being used to cover the ladies' offshoots of big clubs over an above the activities of long established clubs in the lower leagues.

For reference the overall home attendance in L2 last season was 2.4million, at an overall average of 4,500. The WSL had an aggregate home attendance of 110,000 at an average of 1,000. All figures from www.worldfootball.net

Edited by ExiledAjax
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With all the investment made in the ground, team, academy and training facilities relegation back to league one would be a waste of epic proportions. That is the stuff nightmares are made of.

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I agree - coverage of women's football won't take away fans form established men's teams; no fan of Port Vale is going to abandon their club to go and watch the local WSL team. With respect that wasn't what I was trying to suggest.

This discussion is about the coverage that teams and clubs get.  Major, in the OP, bemoans the lack of coverage of the lower leagues. Coverage of women's football has increased over the past years. Therefore the resources to cover more football than the Prem and Championship are there, and existed in the past. Honestly, listen to an episode of Guardian Football Weekly from 5 years ago - the women's game won't get a look in and neither will L2. Now the women's game gets a 5-10 minute round up yet L2 still gets nothing. So its clear that the producers have decided to use part of their hour of football coverage to discuss the ladies teams. It's the same on other podcasts and in the press. Column inches and minutes being used to cover the ladies' offshoots of big clubs over an above the activities of long established clubs in the lower leagues.

For reference the overall home attendance in L2 last season was 2.4million, at an overall average of 4,500. The WSL had an aggregate home attendance of 110,000 at an average of 1,000. All figures from www.worldfootball.net

Am with you all the way.  Quest coverage of the Football league is as good as it gets. let's hope it continues.

 

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So, what we're saying is that if the club really wants to stay under the radar, league 1 is the place to be.

:) 

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7 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

All the others you mentioned overstretched themselves in the Prem...

Did Wolves really overstretch themselves in the premier league when they went up under Mick McCarthy and had three seasons up there? When he joined Wolves he had to rely on loans and youth team players to get through a championship season and he still took them up to the premier league very quickly - can’t remember them chucking all that away and overspending - same with Southampton really ...

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