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Northern Red

Saracens Punishment

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1 minute ago, B1ackbird said:

Five million pound fine and a 35 point deduction, can anyone see that reduced on appeal? 

Just seen that. I'm guessing the other clubs in the Prem are safe from relegation now.

Massive fine though + points deduction, and sends out a clear message.

They will do well to keep that team together in the championship next season as well.

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I dont think they would have been relegated previous seasons with that deduction. It's just a season without European rugby unless their team is dramatically worse than the last few years.

Their bigger problem will be finding a new way to circumvent the wage cap. 

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4 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

They should be kicked out of the European Cup as well. 

If they win it will they qualify for it again next season? If so, then they should definitely be thrown out.

Another question is whether they should be stripped of some of their honours over the past however many years they've been doing this...

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If they win it will they qualify for it again next season?

Yeah the holder automatically qualifies

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Not enough imo. 

Firstly, 35 point reduction won’t see them go down, they’ll still be playing premiership rugby next season, will just have to settle with the challenge cup (unless they win the champions cup again of course...)

Personally I’d have deducted them 35 points, not allowed them to have any marquee players (2 players excluded from the salary cap) for the next 3 years and forced them to get rid of enough players so they are within the £7 million that every other club is sticking to, including the two marquee signings. 

Then strip them of their trophies from the last couple of seasons as well.

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I guess as they have already launched their appeal we shall have to wait & see. But 35pts deduction probably wouldn't see them relegated to the Champ. 

They should be stripped of all the titles won in the period for which the breaches have been found. 

I guess the punishment is the least they could have expected but it will be interesting to see what happens to the squad now  

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If they win it will they qualify for it again next season? If so, then they should definitely be thrown out.

Another question is whether they should be stripped of some of their honours over the past however many years they've been doing this...

They change the rules every season since the Premiership and Top14 clubs hijacked the competition, so I'm not sure anymore.

Edit: cheers Phantom.

Sarries unfairly stopped us from reaching the final last season, we have them in our pool again now. They've stopped Exeter winning some more Premiership titles. I'll be amazed if there are no further recriminations from this.

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7 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

They change the rules every season since the Premiership and Top14 clubs hijacked the competition, so I'm not sure anymore.

Edit: cheers Phantom.

Sarries unfairly stopped us from reaching the final last season, we have them in our pool again now. They've stopped Exeter winning some more Premiership titles. I'll be amazed if there are no further recriminations from this.

Bit more info

In May 2017, it was announced that, starting with qualification for the 2018–19 Champions Cup, the play-off will be scrapped in favour of awarding the berth using the following criteria:

Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified.

European Rugby Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified.

Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified.

Challenge Cup semi-finalist, if one has not already qualified (or the winner of a play-off between the semi-finalists, if both have not already qualified).

Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Well done the RFU.

I don't know how this compares to football's FFP rules but if this can happen in one sport to a big club then maybe the Premier league and EFL could take note?

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I posted in the thread in the main forum, but I don't really see this as a severe punishment at all.

They've systematically abused the salary cap system for years in order to get the best players, and racked up numerous Premiership and Champions Cup titles as a result. And their punishment? They have to endure the indigity of finishing in the bottom half of the table for one season (they won't get relegated) and possibly not qualifying for the Champions Cup for one year.

Pretty weak if you ask me :dunno:

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Interesting. So their appeal will effectively be a judicial review, they can't actually challenge the merits of the decision. They will have to prove that the panel erred in law or that the penalty and fine is irrational (seems unlikely they'd win on that basis).

Also, at the same time they were breaching the salary cap they went cap in hand to Barnet Council (a local authority that has been subject to huge government spending cuts) to get them to loan them money for a new stand! That is really shocking behaviour. 

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14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Interesting. So their appeal will effectively be a judicial review, they can't actually challenge the merits of the decision. They will have to prove that the panel erred in law or that the penalty and fine is irrational (seems unlikely they'd win on that basis).

Also, at the same time they were breaching the salary cap they went cap in hand to Barnet Council (a local authority that has been subject to huge government spending cuts) to get them to loan them money for a new stand! That is really shocking behaviour. 

That's why nobody else likes them!

Seriously, Sarries have put together an absolutely fantastic team but this is financial doping. If these avenues of topping up their stars' salaries are closed to them, you'd think that their squad would unravel over the next couple of seasons. Surely they can't afford to keep them all.

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3 hours ago, phantom said:

The biggest shame is that Bath are no longer bottom of the league!

Not all bad, whilst the appeal is progressing the points deduction is lifted so Barf are back on the bottom

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Interesting to note that.

EInLek6WwAASUJd.jpg

Don't see how they win it personally!

Over 3 years eh...seems a bit like FFP! Assumed clubs were just tested annually.

Wonder if it sets a precedent that an appeal of say an FFP points deduction would be like this, a judicial review, post Arbitration etc.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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10 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Good. Let's hope they get in more trouble! 

Not turning up to the launch does look suspicious. They could have easily batted away questions about the cap by saying that it was ongoing and they were looking forward to defending their European title. They won't win any friends or support this way.

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I'm old enough to remember when Rugby Union was considered a bastion of 'amateur' sport and prided itself on that. There were whispers about boot money but it was largely low key and not subject to a spotlight. However, in today's modern and all so cynical 'professionional' era it seems they are travelling down the same route as us footballers. How times change, eh?

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19 hours ago, MichaelRobartes said:

@Woodsy 😂😂😂

 

Ha, this completely passed me by!

My Lord, they are going to get some shit tomorrow!

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11 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Ha, this completely passed me by!

My Lord, they are going to get some shit tomorrow!

I hope you'll be waving Monopoly money at anyone in a Sarries jersey or fez you see tomorrow?

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6 minutes ago, MichaelRobartes said:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gloucester-rugby-stop-selling-beer-3515496

Incidentally, 'The Wolfpack' is one of the worst sporting nicknames I've ever heard.

Thanks for that - all clear now.

So Glaws supporters are helping to pay Saracens wages and helping Saracens cheat? #boycottwolfpacklarger

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9 hours ago, MichaelRobartes said:

I hope you'll be waving Monopoly money at anyone in a Sarries jersey or fez you see tomorrow?

I understand that a few people may well be doing such things....😂

7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

This has still passed me by - are you able to explain?

One of the many companies that Nigel West and his corrupt gang set up to help pay their players

6 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Thanks for that - all clear now.

So Glaws supporters are helping to pay Saracens wages and helping Saracens cheat? #boycottwolfpacklarger

Yes 🤦‍♂️. I can't believe we were the only club doing so either. It actually makes my brain hurt to think about it. Never tried a pint, but I'm reliably informed it's awful

Been a long time coming, I just hope they don't get a much softer punishment on appeal, but I'm sure they will

I'm looking forward to Barf getting nailed next 🙏

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On 06/11/2019 at 15:47, Erithacus said:

I'm old enough to remember when Rugby Union was considered a bastion of 'amateur' sport and prided itself on that. There were whispers about boot money but it was largely low key and not subject to a spotlight. However, in today's modern and all so cynical 'professionional' era it seems they are travelling down the same route as us footballers. How times change, eh?

True, although, Bath were pretty "proffessional" for a supposedly amature club.. 

Edited by B1ackbird

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Read an interesting line in the Times on Saturday.

Apparently clubs- don't know many- or owners more likely- are mnded to boycott or open to the idea at least, games vs Saracens if they appeal- ie refuse to play them!

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23 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Proper can of worms openif the appeal wins 

Can you imagine that? If what Saracens have been doing is deemed ok, then Sir Steve can open the chequebook and flood Bristol with a whole bunch of international stars. Personally I don't want that to happen but as you say the can of worms will be fully open.

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Can of worms for sure- but talk of other clubs boycotting Saracens if they win an appeal.

I'd say suspend their membership of the League if they try to take it to external courts. Certainly for the duration of said case.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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2 hours ago, Paul G said:

Can you imagine that? If what Saracens have been doing is deemed ok, then Sir Steve can open the chequebook and flood Bristol with a whole bunch of international stars. Personally I don't want that to happen but as you say the can of worms will be fully open.

Agreed. No sport should be an open chequebook. Hope Sarries lose, take their punishment, see their squad dismantled and compete fairly in the future. 

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Amazing how many reputable sources are referring to Sarries' case as an appeal when it's nothing of the sort. If this is accurate it makes sense. They'd be wise to drop the review, they're getting off lightly in my opinion.
Edited by MichaelRobartes
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Yes realistically I guess they just miss a shot at Champions Cup rugby for one season as it’s unlikely they’d go down. Not really that much of a punishment is it. 

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2 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Yes realistically I guess they just miss a shot at Champions Cup rugby for one season as it’s unlikely they’d go down. Not really that much of a punishment is it. 

Spot on but I don't think it'll end there. Some of the other clubs will be pushing for further sanctions and rightly so in my opinion.

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